Morality is not determined by the church you attend nor the faith you embrace. It is determined by the quality of your character and the positive impact you have on those you meet along your journey
Sunday, January 02, 2011
Looking back on two years of progress.
Progressives certainly did not get everything on their wish list, but honestly who could have done more?
The problem isn't that the "progressives" didn't get everything they wanted, the problem is that they're so fucking unappreciative for what the DID get. Unappreciative and unlearned in the way government works.
Progressives are as stupid in their own way as the Tea Baggers on the right are in THEIR way. Neither understands how government works - the give and take, the watered-down bills to get something passed - and don't like it when everything doesn't go their way. No Public Option? Oh no, they can't be happy with what WAS passed (and will hopefully be amended in the future to include the Public Option). I am generally more upset with the out-of-touch Progressive Democrats than with the Tea Bagging Republicans.
Well we sure know that McFailin' and his Caribou Barbie would have brought on the end times by now, so if this is the trade-off, I'm thrilled.
Our president has been flatly remarkable. It is a travesty that he is not more fully recognized by and in the press and media. I am left with resisting the impulse to say it has to do with his being a dark skinned man, but it gets harder and harder to do.
I can't thank you, and the rest of the Alaska Progressive bloggers enough for exposing the fraud that is Palin. Without you I would probably be an expat by now.
I am trying to get over my bad feelings about Alaska. So many corrupt old and young bastards (self imposed name). It is not the fault of your beautiful state, just the people who unlike you, keep quiet.
I really don't understand this meme about the progressive left, and how they are not supposed to criticize the President. Not that I mind being called 'fucking unappreciative'. Names are allowed, though it's not my style, and I think it just stops conversation.
But I honestly think we are all supposed to advocate for what we want, and what we believe. I believe the health care bill fell far far short of what was possible. And I think it happened because of clumsy strategy (ie, maybe some people were 'unlearned in the way government works'). I also hope that we will make healthcare better, and the stronger we advocate our positions, the better it will be.
Now if this means I am equated with the Tea Party (note I don't call them baggers) then I would love to hear why that is. My positions are based on facts, open discussion, rational thought, and an overriding concern for the middle class and those who cannot provide for themselves.
There have been a few things the President has done that I didn't like, but I'll still vote for him next time. I don't know what he'd have to do to lose my vote, maybe be photographed clubbing a baby seal? Or clubbing a halibut?
i'm feeling that the administration made big strides in passing the watered down version of healthcare reform; it can be tweaked.... by the way, there are a lot of progressives against healthcare reform, who can't imagine paying for health insurance (except catastrophic) because they practice preventative care with nutrition, exercise, accupuncture, etc. and don't feel they should support people who have poor lifestyles.
Thank you, phoebes. I wholeheartedly agree. I am related to progressives who are so childishly idealistic - as if it's all or nothing, completely underestimating the massive nature of the correction necessary, given where we've come from. Most of us know this is a long journey, Obama won't do it all. He has said so himself, repeatedly. That in no way means he has failed so far. He has had the courage to compromise, actually.
I get the feeling that some of these folks think this is the only opportunity we'll have to be in the White House, for decades to come. Why do they think that? They think so little of our party? I think there will be many administrations ahead that can help further the progressive agenda. It will take a lot of work on all of our parts to continue the path Obama has started. We need to find other positive, qualified candidates and help them get elected.
In the meantime, people should stop kicking a guy when he's down, in the middle of an epic struggle at an incredibly difficult time in our country's history. THAT'S what makes me so irritated with them. Obama is in a precarious, fragile position. We need to show patience and support him, not cry wah! when we don't get exactly what we want. That's not rational discussion, imo.
The idea that those of us who are ok with baby steps are somehow selling out the best interests of our fellow citizens is simply offensive. That makes me just as angry as I feel with the Tea Baggers and their reprehensible views. It's condescending, if nothing else. We are being realistic. Undermining the success of this president with complaints and open doubting of his motivations is just wrong, given the historic achievement of getting rid of Bush. Do they really want to help another Republican get elected?
I fear some would happily vote for a third party challenger. For me, anyone who voted for Nader in 2000 needs to accept responsibility for the 8 horrific years of Bush. I know, the argument gets made that these folks wouldn't have voted at all had they not had Nader as a choice - but I say then, why the hell not? Every vote counts. Not participating, not voting, is tantamount to making a choice.
When I hear these people complaining and talking third party runs, I think I am listening to the most selfish people in the world.
And I'm sorry, AKjah@5.16p, if I offended you by my outspoken critique of some "progressives". But having lived through the dark days of the Bush/Cheney administration and knowing of the huge job Obama took on on January 20, 2009, I am just not in the mood to excuse progressives and their "let's take home the football because Obama didn't get everything we wanted him to do".
Sorry, I love my country. I'll be 60 in two weeks and have been a lifelong, yes, "progressive" Democrat, from a "progressive Democratic" family. I've marched against more than a few wars, and in support of civil rights, womens' lib, and most progressive ideas and ideals. So I have every right to be mad when I see babyish progressives complain that not enough has been done. I'll say it again, they ARE fucking unappreciative!
Hey, I understand compromise, but you can't compromise with toddlers. Obama et al., simply let buffoons like McConnell, Bohner, et al., control much of the message during the last two years and it was totally unnecessary. I cannot believe that FDR, JFK, LBJ, or even Reagan would have squandered so much political capital as did President Obama. Can you imagine that if any of the previous four presidents had come into office with such a commanding margin of victory and a clear indication of support from the majority of the country that they wouldn't have kicked ass for AT LEAST the first year? I have simply seen a deficit of bold leadership and an extreme aversion to risk.
Yeah, we got quite a few partial pies during the last two years, but after this frenetic lame duck session, I can't help but wonder what the last two years could have been like if THAT kind of "screw the GOP" attitude had been the Dems MO all along.
DADT was just about the GOP's proverbial line in the sand and look how the Dems brushed them aside. If the Dems - President Obama included - had shown THAT kind of resolve earlier, they certainly could have preempted much of the GOP bullshit parade.
I think that maybe it dawned on the White House and the Congressional Dems that life was going to get more difficult for them this year and if they wanted to get anything done they were simply going to have to gird up their loins and start waving their huevos about. I also think that if they had done this sooner, they might have even prevented the GOP takeover of the House. Being a cringing wussy doesn't ever seem to be a great strategy.
Hey, what the hell do I know? I'm just a bloody knuckle liberal who is sick and tired of being pushed around by the GOP and their blue lap dogs. I say it's time to initiate some Republicans into the bloody nose GOP.
What pisses me off is the suggestion that we must have unanimous lockstep support for Obama. Bullshit. I was one of his earliest supporters and if I don't feel he's living up to his campaign promises or his duty, I'll damn well say so. If you want featly, go join the fucking teabaggers.
Remember, this is the Democratic Party we're talking about. Will Rogers had us pegged. We're NOT an organized political party.
And before you go bitching about progressives please review your history. EVERY major social issue that we've confronted as a nation was ultimately solved by the progressive solution that was initially deemed too liberal. I stand proudly by my progressive convictions. History has shown us to be on the right side of history just about every time.
"by the way, there are a lot of progressives against healthcare reform, who can't imagine paying for health insurance (except catastrophic) because they practice preventative care with nutrition, exercise, accupuncture, etc. and don't feel they should support people who have poor lifestyles." 4:42
My husband was hit by a car while riding his bike. No way his fault. He had multiple broken bones, a head injury, almost lost a leg and was flat on his back for months. Had he not been wearing a helmet he might be dead. Our insurance was maxed out by the time he got out of ER. The hospital turned us in to collection agencies because we could not pay. We had multiple major medical bills for him after the hospital and still does. I am already disabled, also for reasons having nothing to do with my lifestyle. We were left in dire straits after his accident. If not for our church, food banks and some compassionate MDs, we would have lost our house and everything else. The driver's car insurance stonewalled us for 3 years. They only paid up when we sued. This had nothing to do with his lifestyle. He was DOING exercise and most of the other things you cite.
So how does this fit your why should we healthy livers subsidize unhealthy lifestyles?
Gasman - my fellow New Mexican! I am not marching lockstep behind Obama. I think he has done a very good job at governing the past two years and attempting to pull this country out of the mire, as much as possible.
I do think that he lost the message early. He should have been touting the victories of the White House and the 111th Congress far more and far earlier than he did. Maybe he's learned a little.
But I still hope to be on the lawn of the Capital on January 20, 2013, as I was with my three adult children on Jan 20, 2009, cheering again as Obama is inaugurated for his second term.
However, Phoebes, MOST Progressives are not spoiled whining brats nor are they out of touch with reality. However, the corrporate news media favors the squeaky wheel regardless of which end of the spectrum they are on.
More people would have a more informed view of the world if they had access to the FACTS rether then being fed opinion by so called "news" sources such as FAUX news & the rest.
Go on and say it Anon@1:34 PM. It is the truth. No other president has had the losing VP from the other party, shamelessly follow, and spew hate, while paid millions to do so, against the POTUS. Walk out, mid term, from her elected position as governor of Alaska, and pick at everything the president does. All this bile from one who clearly must have been the slowest thinker in grade school.
I find this conversation amazing and sad. How can any human being deny other human beings the opportunity for a healthy life? How does the amount of money that a person has equate to that person's character or human value? For those of you that identify yourselves as "Christians" please cite verse and phrase of the teachings of Jesus Christ that support your beliefs _ anything written AFTER the birth of the Savior Jesus Christ. Citing the Old Testament does not count. All Christians know that these text were written before Jesus Christ died for our sins.
My dearest phoebes, We simply disagree regarding President Obama's performance in office. I think that he has far too often looked amateurish and ineffectual. I'll cite two examples.
#1. Healthcare reform. Before the debate even began, he signaled to the GOP that he was taking single payer off the table. The biggest cudgel he had and he telegraphed to the GOP that he would not support that under any circumstances. What did he get in return from the GOP? Nothing. He did the exact same thing later with the public option. He squandered his two biggest bargaining chips and got nothing at all, no concessions from the GOP. That looked like a rookie mistake from someone who had not spent much time in the Senate. Guess what? That's exactly what it was.
#2. The extension of tax cuts for all Americans. He totally caved to the GOP without even pushing them at all. I think that it's pretty clear that the GOP really didn't have the stomach to raise taxes on the middle class just to get cuts for their wealthy masters. However, President Obama seemed to simply roll over when McConnell and Boehner barked. On top of all that, by extending the cuts until 2012 he handed the GOP their next campaign issue. If he was going to extend it, it should have been for only one year. By waiting until 2012 we will see the same nonsense from the GOP about "raising taxes" in a presidential election year. That seems pretty ham fisted bargaining.
I don't expect to get everything I want. However, I expect a president to get out front and lead more often than President Obama has. I also expect him to stand up to opposition once in awhile. When Obama swings for the fences, he hits it out of the park. However, far too often he just stands their at the plate and seems to expect all the hits to come from Pelosi and Reid. I remember how he schooled the entire GOP House Caucus. THAT’S the kind of President Obama I would like to see more often.
I voted for Obama in the primaries, in the general election, and I suspect that I'll do the same in 2012, but that doesn’t mean that I must raise my voice only in praises and hallelujahs. I am entitled to bitch if I feel like doing so. I also really haven’t heard any progressives talking about supporting a third party candidate. I have heard of some advocating a primary challenge, but how is that unusual? It happens in most presidential elections. To the degree that I think President Obama can do better, I will continue to kvetch, push, and complain. As far as I can tell, that’s kind of what being an American is all about. I believe that politics should be a full contact sport, even with those in your own party. And don’t act too surprised, but I might just be there beside you and your kids on the lawn of the White House next inauguration. I’ll bring the green and you can bring the red.
And Anon @ 4:56, As for the “childish optimism” of progressives, would that be the “childish optimism” that opposed slavery, child labor, mistreatment of workers, and the denial of women the right to vote? Maybe it was the “childish optimism” that spoke out against Jim Crow and segreation and for Civil Rights. Or perhaps it was the “childish optimism” that has said for decades that the GLBT community deserves to be treated just like everybody else? I contend that without the “childish optimism” of progressives, this country would have never achieved the milestones in social justice that we have. It was not moderation or middle of the road politics that yielded ANY of those results.
I think that I’ll just stick to my childishly optimistic beliefs, thank you very much.
@ lwtjb - I agree with you, but was quoting what I have read from progressives with healthy lifestyles who feel that they shouldn't be responsible for people who eat cheetos for three meals a day and don't get out of their chairs. I know there are many medical and health circumstances that have nothing to do with lifestyle choices, including injuries/accidents, birth defects, disease, etc., but since we have so many people with radical ideas in the spectrum, it is amazing that we got any kind of healthcare reform passed!:-)
I've been thinking of how to resolve their issues, perhaps some sort of credit for good health if there is a mandate? I'm not sure how this would be gauged. Some people haven't used medical services or visited hospitals in decades, so they aren't in agreement with being forced to buy something they don't use.
Time for a new post, Gryphen. Is it boring up there or what? Here I sit in the Upper Mojave Desert where the Canadian snow geese come for the winter. We are covered in snow with more coming down. The geese are freezing their fat little feet and honking, "WTF, WTF, WTF!?!?"
You progressives who accuse anyone who defends the president of being sycophants are the height of hypocrisy. You spew Keith Olbermann talking points and Fired Dog Lake BS - neither of whom know crap about how government works - and then you bitch and moan about Obama and Gitmo when he has nothing to do with why it's still open. Yes, you are a part of the problem- you make us look as foolish as the tea party makes the right look.
I'm sick of it and I'm sick of having fools accuse other people of being in "lock step" for not hating the President and for being realistic and appreciating that he has gotten more done than any other Pres in a LONG time.
Irony is that you accuse us of this crap while you are nothing but Kos lemmings. Who's in lock step?
Learn about your government before you make fools of yourselves. Better yet, you try working in government. I dare you.
lwtjb said...Whoever thinks living a healthy lifestyle will prevent the need for medical care, he/she is deluded. ----- It can cut down medical care a lot. I'm 60 years old, and have had medical treatment six times in my life. 6 years old- tonsillitus. 9 years old-fractured collarbone. 3 Xs-strep throat in my teens. 21 yrs old - whiplash from car accident. In my twenties I got my recurring strep throat, and instead of going to the doctor, I followed Adelle Davis' nutritional advice from her book, and in two days it was gone, and I've never had strep throat again. Even though I only go to a doctor the equivalent once every ten years, I would pay for health insurance to help the economic deficit, and wouldn't mind having it for in case I get hurt skiing or something. I doubt if I will get cancer or anything requiring longterm medical treatment in the near future. My health is so excellent, I get hit on by twentysomethings men. I don't color my hair, it still isn't gray, and wear a size 2 and 4. I will eat occasional fast food, and desserts. I never deprive myself of anything. Have you read about the Hunzas? They live to be 140, women start to gray at 70, men have children and look 40 at 90? They have a food regimen that would be more difficult for Americans to follow. However, they walk for miles each day, and they laugh, and enjoy life. That, in my opinion, is one of the keys to their quality longevity, and practices most people can follow that doesn't cost anything.
Listen, Gasman, I am a progressive also, (and the anon @ 4:56), and you have proven exactly what I am talking about. You guys are so freaking rigid about your definition of success, and condescending when anyone accuses you of being part of the problem and not the solution.
There is absolutely no way in hell Obama could have come in to office as a raging Progressive, without inflaming an already divided nation. He was accused of being a dreaded Socialist, he's a BLACK man, and he had to basically calm all the angry racists down. He had to tread very, very carefully. Anyone who thinks otherwise is woefully naive.
Stop telling people like me and phoebes to study our history. I am fully educated and I don't need someone like you lecturing me. We are both in support of progressive causes, it seems clear. What I object to, personally, is this refusal to truly accept reality.
We're not talking about agreeing with everything he does. We're not talking about being in lockstep with him. We're talking about waking up and smelling the coffee, and understanding that if you don't support him - and yes, get organized - these people will find a way to steal the election the next time around, dirty tricks and all. And all the whining - yes, whining - will have helped THEM out. How could anyone participate in that after how far we've come?
Its so difficult for us common folk who are out of the loop, to really see how things work.
Whenever the healthcare issue is discussed, I rarely see anyone mentioning how many millions were spent by the insurance industry, to sway members of congress from both parties, away from any true reform.
Had it been a simple matter of counting Democratic hands held up, over such issues, we WOULD have seen much more in the way of progress made.
Sadly, many of those hands were clutching payoffs and bribes, too heavy to allow them to lift their arms high enough to be seen.
This ugly aspect of elective government caused problems with all the other popular causes, such as Wall Street Reform, and every other issue in which the rich stood to lose ground.
There may be no solution to it, either...so to see the accomplishments of the 111th congress that DID make it through, is amazing.
With the Republicans acting the last two years as if they WERE the majority, caring little about putting America at huge risk in order to block anything that may make the President look good, and GETTING AWAY WITH IT, does not bode well for the future.
yes, in support of anon 8:59's rant, have you read this article about Fox News?
http://thetruthnews.info/propaganda.html
There is a horrendous takeover underfoot, so be on the same page, you don't have to be lock step with the Obama administration, but you sure better be willing to see why its crucial to support it.
I'm a proud progressive, and I don't mind the label "liberal" either.
However, I wanted this Constitutional Scholar to restore the Rule of Law in this country.
[1] Let the so-called Patriot Act expire and restore all of our lost Rights. (Instead, in the name of security, we've lost even more of our freedom.)
[2] Impeach and/or try Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rice, and their entire caboodle of cronies for War Crimes: lying us into illegal wars of regime change and rapaciousness resulting in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people, torture and rendition, using cluster bombs and white phosphorous on civilians, etc.. Cheney ought to be hanged for outing a spy in time of war... and so much more. (Instead, these villains are profiting from their crimes and writing books. AND AMERICA HAS LOST ALL MORAL STANDING.
[3] End the disastrous wars of occupation in Iraq and Afghanistan. (Instead, 2 years later, the occupations are becoming permanent, the embassies are city-sized, and the war-on-a-noun has spread to Pakistan, Somalia, Yemen, and wherever else we are bombing. Just like bombing in Cambodia and Laos and .... We never learn.)
[4] Get our economy off a war-footing and back to producing useful stuff: new technology, green jobs, the future, putting that squandered money into infrastructure = local jobs. (Instead, the bankers got their bonuses, the filthy rich got far richer, the war-profiteers are swimming in money... and average Americans lost jobs, homes, everything. The income gap is acute.
I was also hoping that Obama would be environmentally conscious, yet after the Deepwater Horizon, he kept waffling about a moratorium on this sort of scandalously-unsafe drilling, and he has yet to clean out the Bushies from the Agencies.
We must get off this dependence upon oil. In past centuries it was wood, coal, whale blubber, and each time we invented another technology to replace and IMPROVE our supplies of energy. Kennedy said that we'd be on the Moon in 10 years, we were inspired and we beat that goal. Obama came into office riding a bigger wave of popularity than Kennedy ever had. He could have set us the goal of energy independence: clean, renewable, profitable and technically advanced, with all the related jobs that drive would create. Gas is $4/gal, and it will only get worse as we continue to dig and drill and fight over fossil supplies. If we don't look to the future, we'll be burning cow chips at this rate.
Ending DADT and allowing gay marriage and some equality is going to happen. It is inevitable. (I say "some equality" because women do not yet have full equality and minorities still suffer.) It happened on Obama's watch, so he gets credit.
Promises broken, such as closing Gitmo and ending torture and ending the wars are worth several dozen of his promises kept, even DADT. I'm sorry, but allowing gay members to serve doesn't mean much when their service is dieing for a lie, dieing to prop up a corrupt warlord, dieing so that politicians and merchants and lobbyists can continue their danse macabre in our empty treasury.
A primary would weaken Obama, and that would be very, very bad. I will not vote for a Republican (they are insane or corrupt or both). However, if the election was held today, with escalating wars and deteriorating economy and the utter lack of Justice, I couldn't fill in the oval next to his name. I can't in good conscience enable those who are accessory to War Crimes.
I don't expect any President to do everything, however any President must lead.
"Some people haven't used medical services or visited hospitals in decades, so they aren't in agreement with being forced to buy something they don't use."
7:54 PM
My husband had not used medical services or visited hospitals for decades either. Then whamo. NO ONE IS IMMUNE. You may agree with me but I see this argument all the time - you only have health problems because you don't live right. It's a crock.
Then there are the folks who think you only need to get right with God.
@ 8:49 PM You should consider yourself lucky. You are certainly right that healthy habits can help keep you out of doctor's offices and hospitals. However, those habits are not iron clad guarantees. We did all those things for ourselves and STILL ended up with major health problems that devastated our financial life. To say nothing of our quality of life.
You can get hit head on by a drunk driver. You can be exposed to devastating disease. You could have cancer right now and not know it. You could have a stroke tomorrow and die. All the healthy living in the world will not protect you from every eventuality. EVERYBODY dies of something.
Anyone who thinks what we need to do at this point in time is try Dick Cheney and Bush for war crimes is just not in touch with reality, sorry.
Like many, I would love to see those criminals pay. I personally believe they will, some way some how - whether you believe in karma or divine justice or just human nature.
But, to insist that this is what would be required for one's vote is just madness. Sorry.
People who are so high and mighty with their principles are just plain unreasonable, and seem not to want to face the fact that Obama knows a lot more now about the true reality of many issues than he did when he was running. Whether we are talking national security, or the economy, or the political. I think our blood would run cold if we had access to the information he now knows.
He can only do so much. Hinging one's vote on the closing of Guantanamo is painfully short sighted. I have every belief that Obama would have loved to close that place down. I think he would have loved to stop both wars. I think he would have loved the public option. I think he would love to jumpstart a green economy.
But he is hemmed in to a certain extent, that can't be denied, and much of it is not his fault - AT ALL. (Aside from wonky indifference to the urgent need for messaging, perhaps.) People need to grow up. They need to stop thinking they have the luxury of high ideals when we live in an imperfect world. Thanks, hauksdottir, for demonstrating the childish insistence on getting everything one wants that some of us have observed in the more rigid members of our progressive movement. This way of seeing things will only lead to paralysis.
We can't afford this type of idealism. Again, any vote not cast to keep Obama in office, should he lose the White House in 2012, is a vote FOR the frightening alternative - as any GOP President would surely be. Live with that.
Thanks phoebes. I get so worked up that I rant, I know. But really, it's like kids wanting to quit a game because they aren't winning.
Hey, people - we aren't quitters! Obama invoked the North Star symbol recently to remind people about how long it took for African Americans to gain their civil rights. They didn't have the option of giving up, now did they? We still don't.
Listen, it's going to get a lot worse in the coming months. If you all decide we can risk having the Boehner gang in our White House again, by all means vote third party or withhold your vote from Obama. But I swear, if he loses the Presidency in 2012, I will never forgive you all. You can go ahead and say it was his own doing, and blame him for not being far enough to the left, but if you honestly believe he could have successfully gotten away with that in our current climate and with our current problems, I really think you are dreaming.
There was a poster on another thread who said they weren't going to support Obama anymore because he allowed the payroll tax holiday in the recent budget package. This was someone who claimed to be well off, who had benefited from the Bush era economic policies, but just couldn't enable such an outrageous affront to Social Security. They lectured us about how naive some of us were about the GOP plans to dismantle it, blah blah blah. (As if we weren't well aware of their agenda.) This is the sort of thing that is just so ridiculous. Apparently if Obama isn't perfect, he must be dropped?
We need to keep our eye on the prize, long term. We need to keep the bigger picture in our minds at all times. There will be losses, there will be compromise. But there will be gains, very significant ones. Let's focus on what's right and not on everything that's wrong. Let's actually DO something and stop undercutting those who are trying to make a difference. Sitting at home and naysaying is the exact opposite of that, AND employing one's sacred right to vote in a punitive manner, when at least some good was done, is absolutely that.
Anon @ 859, Please cite my rigidity. I have NOT bitched about specific programs not getting passed. I understand that political give and take means that nobody gets everything that they want.
If you read my posts carefully, or not so carefully, what I was complaining about was how amateurish the game being played by the White House appeared. Obama has not projected a consistent air of strength and leadership. There have been flashes, but no sustained muscle. I am NOT complaining about single payer or the public option not being adopted.
My refusal to accept reality? How about the reality that the GOP has the House now. How's that for reality? I blame that on the White House. A stronger president who more consistently called out GOP bullshit might well have prevented that. Obama had historic levels of support and seemed EXTREMELY reluctant to do anything with it. What good is political capital if you don't spend it? He has certainly not banked any of that for use with the GOP this session of Congress. If the GOP controlled the message before, how does the president think that he'll get anything done now?
I define success by results. Allowing the GOP to whine about death panels, killing grandma, and socialism is not exactly my idea of success.
As to be lectured by me, that is what I do for a living, so it is an occupational hazard.
Please note that I am not complaining about specific pet causes not being passed. I am critiquing the process and style. I think that can be improved. I think that it is immature to suggest that any criticism of Obama is unwarranted.
I probably would have bitched during the terms of Washington and Lincoln, too. They weren't perfect either.
See, there you go Mr. Gasman - I am immature, am I? Always with the condescension; those of us who are willing to accept less than perfect are just undereducated, under-informed, now immature...
I have completely acknowledged that the Obama White House has been weak on messaging, but when you are dealing with the devil at some point you have to ignore it/them and do some actual work.
No, Obama hasn't gotten out in the Rose Garden at every opportunity and tried to snowjob the American electorate like his predecessor. No, he hasn't engaged assholes like Palin and Boehner and the rest. He has been busy working on policy, trying to figure out strategy in a hostile environment. If that makes him poor at politics, then so be it.
My criticism of the disgruntled left still stands, and yes, you were sufficiently specific, thank you. In my opinion, unreasonable and out of touch about where we are at this moment, surely.
I take it you are probably a professor? Perhaps that's why you are being so hard on Obama, as you understand the personality type. Let's bring it out into the real world. (Don't get me wrong, some of my nearest and dearest are in academia.) Probably Obama's greatest weakness is his intellectualism. I consider it an incredible asset, however.
Not going to answer on this thread again - go for the last word any of you. I am sick of the conversation, as it's clear some have dug their heels in and will cling to their precious principles while watching a Republican get sworn in in January 2013.
Anon @ 9:29, If you think that you are being reasonable and have not dug in YOUR heels, you are deluded. It's clear that you have made up your mind about me and anyone else who is not a sycophantic cheerleader for Obama. That opinion sounds decidedly less than reasonable to me.
You understand my personality type? You don't know shit about me yet you state very categorically what I do and do not believe and tell me in no uncertain terms what my personal shortcomings are. You've projected all sorts of errant traits on me simply because I said I disagreed with your assessment of Obama's performance. You think that sounds mature?
Please don't castigate people who express a difference of opinion on an individual politician's performance. That strikes me as silly. This is America, there will ALWAYS be a difference of opinion regarding politicians of any stripe. Obama is no different. He gets no pass from me for any reason other than when he does a superb job. I just happen to think he can do better. That is all that I have ever said. Anything else ascribed to me is projection on your part.
While we're at it, instead of using "Anon" it would be more helpful to adopt a handle, any handle, and stick to it. With so many Anons posting there is no continuity. If I post, my ID is constant so regulars know who I am. You have no identity beyond an individual post. In my opinion it limits your ability to contribute and be taken as seriously.
Again, just my two cents worth, and it may not even be worth that much.
Can't resist - what should my handle be, let's see.... Judy, or Bart, or Neanderthal 2011? Does that make people feel better? So you can follow my posts and get ready to do battle with me when I share my thoughts? Sorry, not going to happen. These threads are not social clubs, I have said it before. They are not a meeting of personalities. They are not organizations with entrenched dynamics and pecking orders, as they would be if everyone had to use a consistent identifying label. They are a place to post thoughts and ideas, period. There are people on these blogs who pridefully and happily have "identities". It's just as freaking anonymous as my Anonymous. If you enjoy that, that's great, but it's certainly not a requirement for honest and fruitful discussion.
I can see I got under someone's skin. Fine. The reason people like me get so irate, and feel so hopeless, when we hear people bitching about Obama "doing better" is that it contributes to the horse race mentality of the MSM - they just feed on the disgruntled Left, as much as they feed on empty souls like Sarah Palin. When we contribute to that by focusing only on the negative, it's supremely frustrating. You are just playing into the corporate media's hands by saying he sucks at the political side, that he squandered capital. They just love that! And you are probably vastly underestimating the magnitude of the challenges he faced and will continue to face.
I even wonder if Obama's team now don't feel quite pleased that they will be able to show these creeps up for what they are, when they don't accomplish anything, by 2012. Just watch. We can count on Boehner's troops to behave horribly in the coming months, and that can only help us in the end. If they were still in the minority they would be able to claim only hypothetical attributes, the easiest thing in the world. Now the proof will be in the pudding.
I will tell you this, though. For anyone who benefited from the extension of health coverage for minors up to 26, or from the elimination of the IMMORAL pre-existing condition policies for health care coverage - that's enough to stand by this President. That's change we can believe in and has made an astonishing difference in many people's lives. That's just one example. Bit by bit, day by day. That's how it's done.
I am not immature. I am angry. I don't think we should be helping the GOP bash and destroy Obama, when he has only been in office two years. I think it's premature. And I think not showing patience is the most immature behavior of all.
Can't resist - what should my handle be, let's see.... Judy, or Bart, or Neanderthal 2011? Does that make people feel better? So you can follow my posts and get ready to do battle with me when I share my thoughts? Sorry, not going to happen. These threads are not social clubs, I have said it before. They are not a meeting of personalities. They are not organizations with entrenched dynamics and pecking orders, as they would be if everyone had to use a consistent identifying label. They are a place to post thoughts and ideas, period. There are people on these blogs who pridefully and happily have "identities". It's just as freaking anonymous as my Anonymous. If you enjoy that, that's great, but it's certainly not a requirement for honest and fruitful discussion.
I can see I got under someone's skin. Fine. The reason people like me get so irate, and feel so hopeless, when we hear people bitching about Obama "doing better" is that it contributes to the horse race mentality of the MSM - they just feed on the disgruntled Left, as much as they feed on empty souls like Sarah Palin. When we contribute to that by focusing only on the negative, it's supremely frustrating. You are just playing into the corporate media's hands by saying he sucks at the political side, that he squandered capital. They just love that! And you are probably vastly underestimating the magnitude of the challenges he faced and will continue to face.
I even wonder if Obama's team now don't feel quite pleased that they will be able to show these creeps up for what they are, when they don't accomplish anything, by 2012. Just watch. We can count on Boehner's troops to behave horribly in the coming months, and that can only help us in the end. If they were still in the minority they would be able to claim only hypothetical attributes, the easiest thing in the world. Now the proof will be in the pudding.
I will tell you this, though. For anyone who benefited from the extension of health coverage for minors up to 26, or from the elimination of the IMMORAL pre-existing condition policies for health care coverage - that's enough to stand by this President. That's change we can believe in and has made an astonishing difference in many people's lives. That's just one example. Bit by bit, day by day. That's how it's done.
I am not immature. I am angry. I don't think we should be helping the GOP bash and destroy Obama, when he has only been in office two years. I think it's premature. And I think not showing patience is the most immature behavior of all.
I am glad for you that you are in good health and are not plagued by serious health issues. But the factors affecting your health have absolutley nothing to do with with the million of OTHER people in this country of the world.
So your health is currently "so excellent". Well, good for you.
And your doubting that you will get cancer or anything requiring longterm medical treatment in the near future is pure delusional.
I am sure you remember Dana Reeves, the the widow of the actor Christopher Reeve, a lifelong nonsmoker who died of lung cancer at age 44. She had never smoked a day in her life and she practices those good lifestyle choices you mentioned. Yet she died of LUNG CANCER.
I myself have several serious medical issues that are not related to lifestyle unless you consider being born into paternal and maternal families whose member suffered with one or more major health issuse.
So don't pat yourself on the back too soon, life and living has a way of catching up to you. ---
BTW, because I have serious health issues and my insurance is not operational in the state where I need to move, I have been forced to remain in my current state.
With the elimination of the pre-existing condition used to deny people like me coverage, I can now move and not be afraid that I will go without health care coverage.
And as for those who don't want to carry coverage and object to the mandate requiring everyone obtain coverage, come back and tell us how you hate carring health insurance WHEN you or your child suffer a catastrophic illness.
The problem isn't that the "progressives" didn't get everything they wanted, the problem is that they're so fucking unappreciative for what the DID get. Unappreciative and unlearned in the way government works.
ReplyDeleteProgressives are as stupid in their own way as the Tea Baggers on the right are in THEIR way. Neither understands how government works - the give and take, the watered-down bills to get something passed - and don't like it when everything doesn't go their way. No Public Option? Oh no, they can't be happy with what WAS passed (and will hopefully be amended in the future to include the Public Option). I am generally more upset with the out-of-touch Progressive Democrats than with the Tea Bagging Republicans.
Well we sure know that McFailin' and his Caribou Barbie would have brought on the end times by now, so if this is the trade-off, I'm thrilled.
ReplyDeleteOur president has been flatly remarkable. It is a travesty that he is not more fully recognized by and in the press and media. I am left with resisting the impulse to say it has to do with his being a dark skinned man, but it gets harder and harder to do.
Gryphen,
ReplyDeleteI can't thank you, and the rest of the Alaska Progressive bloggers enough for exposing the fraud that is Palin. Without you I would probably be an expat by now.
I am trying to get over my bad feelings about Alaska. So many corrupt old and young bastards (self imposed name). It is not the fault of your beautiful state, just the people who unlike you, keep quiet.
I really don't understand this meme about the progressive left, and how they are not supposed to criticize the President. Not that I mind being called 'fucking unappreciative'. Names are allowed, though it's not my style, and I think it just stops conversation.
ReplyDeleteBut I honestly think we are all supposed to advocate for what we want, and what we believe. I believe the health care bill fell far far short of what was possible. And I think it happened because of clumsy strategy (ie, maybe some people were 'unlearned in the way government works'). I also hope that we will make healthcare better, and the stronger we advocate our positions, the better it will be.
Now if this means I am equated with the Tea Party (note I don't call them baggers) then I would love to hear why that is. My positions are based on facts, open discussion, rational thought, and an overriding concern for the middle class and those who cannot provide for themselves.
-RobDoub
Article on anti-government militias which are growing and being groomed by the Joe Miklers and Sick Sarahs of this land.
ReplyDeletehttp://motherjones.com/politics/2010/03/oath-keepers
There have been a few things the President
ReplyDeletehas done that I didn't like, but I'll still vote
for him next time. I don't know what he'd
have to do to lose my vote, maybe be
photographed clubbing a baby seal? Or
clubbing a halibut?
i'm feeling that the administration made big strides in passing the watered down version of healthcare reform; it can be tweaked.... by the way, there are a lot of progressives against healthcare reform, who can't imagine paying for health insurance (except catastrophic) because they practice preventative care with nutrition, exercise, accupuncture, etc. and don't feel they should support people who have poor lifestyles.
ReplyDeleteThank you, phoebes. I wholeheartedly agree. I am related to progressives who are so childishly idealistic - as if it's all or nothing, completely underestimating the massive nature of the correction necessary, given where we've come from. Most of us know this is a long journey, Obama won't do it all. He has said so himself, repeatedly. That in no way means he has failed so far. He has had the courage to compromise, actually.
ReplyDeleteI get the feeling that some of these folks think this is the only opportunity we'll have to be in the White House, for decades to come. Why do they think that? They think so little of our party? I think there will be many administrations ahead that can help further the progressive agenda. It will take a lot of work on all of our parts to continue the path Obama has started. We need to find other positive, qualified candidates and help them get elected.
In the meantime, people should stop kicking a guy when he's down, in the middle of an epic struggle at an incredibly difficult time in our country's history. THAT'S what makes me so irritated with them. Obama is in a precarious, fragile position. We need to show patience and support him, not cry wah! when we don't get exactly what we want. That's not rational discussion, imo.
The idea that those of us who are ok with baby steps are somehow selling out the best interests of our fellow citizens is simply offensive. That makes me just as angry as I feel with the Tea Baggers and their reprehensible views. It's condescending, if nothing else. We are being realistic. Undermining the success of this president with complaints and open doubting of his motivations is just wrong, given the historic achievement of getting rid of Bush. Do they really want to help another Republican get elected?
Continued,
ReplyDeleteI fear some would happily vote for a third party challenger. For me, anyone who voted for Nader in 2000 needs to accept responsibility for the 8 horrific years of Bush. I know, the argument gets made that these folks wouldn't have voted at all had they not had Nader as a choice - but I say then, why the hell not? Every vote counts. Not participating, not voting, is tantamount to making a choice.
When I hear these people complaining and talking third party runs, I think I am listening to the most selfish people in the world.
phoebes in santa fe. You appear an obsequious sycophant. I believe some here would like to say-get a real fucking job.
ReplyDeleteThanks for your props, Anon@4.56p
ReplyDeleteAnd I'm sorry, AKjah@5.16p, if I offended you by my outspoken critique of some "progressives". But having lived through the dark days of the Bush/Cheney administration and knowing of the huge job Obama took on on January 20, 2009, I am just not in the mood to excuse progressives and their "let's take home the football because Obama didn't get everything we wanted him to do".
Sorry, I love my country. I'll be 60 in two weeks and have been a lifelong, yes, "progressive" Democrat, from a "progressive Democratic" family. I've marched against more than a few wars, and in support of civil rights, womens' lib, and most progressive ideas and ideals. So I have every right to be mad when I see babyish progressives complain that not enough has been done. I'll say it again, they ARE fucking unappreciative!
Hey, I understand compromise, but you can't compromise with toddlers. Obama et al., simply let buffoons like McConnell, Bohner, et al., control much of the message during the last two years and it was totally unnecessary. I cannot believe that FDR, JFK, LBJ, or even Reagan would have squandered so much political capital as did President Obama. Can you imagine that if any of the previous four presidents had come into office with such a commanding margin of victory and a clear indication of support from the majority of the country that they wouldn't have kicked ass for AT LEAST the first year? I have simply seen a deficit of bold leadership and an extreme aversion to risk.
ReplyDeleteYeah, we got quite a few partial pies during the last two years, but after this frenetic lame duck session, I can't help but wonder what the last two years could have been like if THAT kind of "screw the GOP" attitude had been the Dems MO all along.
DADT was just about the GOP's proverbial line in the sand and look how the Dems brushed them aside. If the Dems - President Obama included - had shown THAT kind of resolve earlier, they certainly could have preempted much of the GOP bullshit parade.
I think that maybe it dawned on the White House and the Congressional Dems that life was going to get more difficult for them this year and if they wanted to get anything done they were simply going to have to gird up their loins and start waving their huevos about. I also think that if they had done this sooner, they might have even prevented the GOP takeover of the House. Being a cringing wussy doesn't ever seem to be a great strategy.
Hey, what the hell do I know? I'm just a bloody knuckle liberal who is sick and tired of being pushed around by the GOP and their blue lap dogs. I say it's time to initiate some Republicans into the bloody nose GOP.
What pisses me off is the suggestion that we must have unanimous lockstep support for Obama. Bullshit. I was one of his earliest supporters and if I don't feel he's living up to his campaign promises or his duty, I'll damn well say so. If you want featly, go join the fucking teabaggers.
Remember, this is the Democratic Party we're talking about. Will Rogers had us pegged. We're NOT an organized political party.
And before you go bitching about progressives please review your history. EVERY major social issue that we've confronted as a nation was ultimately solved by the progressive solution that was initially deemed too liberal. I stand proudly by my progressive convictions. History has shown us to be on the right side of history just about every time.
"by the way, there are a lot of progressives against healthcare reform, who can't imagine paying for health insurance (except catastrophic) because they practice preventative care with nutrition, exercise, accupuncture, etc. and don't feel they should support people who have poor lifestyles."
ReplyDelete4:42
My husband was hit by a car while riding his bike. No way his fault. He had multiple broken bones, a head injury, almost lost a leg and was flat on his back for months. Had he not been wearing a helmet he might be dead. Our insurance was maxed out by the time he got out of ER. The hospital turned us in to collection agencies because we could not pay. We had multiple major medical bills for him after the hospital and still does. I am already disabled, also for reasons having nothing to do with my lifestyle. We were left in dire straits after his accident. If not for our church, food banks and some compassionate MDs, we would have lost our house and everything else.
The driver's car insurance stonewalled us for 3 years. They only paid up when we sued. This had nothing to do with his lifestyle. He was DOING exercise and most of the other things you cite.
So how does this fit your why should we healthy livers subsidize unhealthy lifestyles?
Whoever thinks living a healthy lifestyle will prevent the need for medical care, he/she is deluded.
ReplyDeleteGasman - my fellow New Mexican! I am not marching lockstep behind Obama. I think he has done a very good job at governing the past two years and attempting to pull this country out of the mire, as much as possible.
ReplyDeleteI do think that he lost the message early. He should have been touting the victories of the White House and the 111th Congress far more and far earlier than he did. Maybe he's learned a little.
But I still hope to be on the lawn of the Capital on January 20, 2013, as I was with my three adult children on Jan 20, 2009, cheering again as Obama is inaugurated for his second term.
Phoebes in Santa Fe: Bully! Tell it like it is!
ReplyDeleteHowever, Phoebes, MOST Progressives are not spoiled whining brats nor are they out of touch with reality. However, the corrporate news media favors the squeaky wheel regardless of which end of the spectrum they are on.
More people would have a more informed view of the world if they had access to the FACTS rether then being fed opinion by so called "news" sources such as FAUX news & the rest.
AKjah _
ReplyDeletePerhaps you are the one that should get an F - n job! Or at least an education!
Go on and say it Anon@1:34 PM. It is the truth. No other president has had the losing VP from the other party, shamelessly follow, and spew hate, while paid millions to do so, against the POTUS. Walk out, mid term, from her elected position as governor of Alaska, and pick at everything the president does. All this bile from one who clearly must have been the slowest thinker in grade school.
ReplyDeleteI find this conversation amazing and sad. How can any human being deny other human beings the opportunity for a healthy life? How does the amount of money that a person has equate to that person's character or human value? For those of you that identify yourselves as "Christians" please cite verse and phrase of the teachings of Jesus Christ that support your beliefs _ anything written AFTER the birth of the Savior Jesus Christ. Citing the Old Testament does not count. All Christians know that these text were written before Jesus Christ died for our sins.
ReplyDeleteMy dearest phoebes,
ReplyDeleteWe simply disagree regarding President Obama's performance in office. I think that he has far too often looked amateurish and ineffectual. I'll cite two examples.
#1. Healthcare reform.
Before the debate even began, he signaled to the GOP that he was taking single payer off the table. The biggest cudgel he had and he telegraphed to the GOP that he would not support that under any circumstances. What did he get in return from the GOP? Nothing. He did the exact same thing later with the public option. He squandered his two biggest bargaining chips and got nothing at all, no concessions from the GOP. That looked like a rookie mistake from someone who had not spent much time in the Senate. Guess what? That's exactly what it was.
#2. The extension of tax cuts for all Americans.
He totally caved to the GOP without even pushing them at all. I think that it's pretty clear that the GOP really didn't have the stomach to raise taxes on the middle class just to get cuts for their wealthy masters. However, President Obama seemed to simply roll over when McConnell and Boehner barked. On top of all that, by extending the cuts until 2012 he handed the GOP their next campaign issue. If he was going to extend it, it should have been for only one year. By waiting until 2012 we will see the same nonsense from the GOP about "raising taxes" in a presidential election year. That seems pretty ham fisted bargaining.
I don't expect to get everything I want. However, I expect a president to get out front and lead more often than President Obama has. I also expect him to stand up to opposition once in awhile. When Obama swings for the fences, he hits it out of the park. However, far too often he just stands their at the plate and seems to expect all the hits to come from Pelosi and Reid. I remember how he schooled the entire GOP House Caucus. THAT’S the kind of President Obama I would like to see more often.
I voted for Obama in the primaries, in the general election, and I suspect that I'll do the same in 2012, but that doesn’t mean that I must raise my voice only in praises and hallelujahs. I am entitled to bitch if I feel like doing so. I also really haven’t heard any progressives talking about supporting a third party candidate. I have heard of some advocating a primary challenge, but how is that unusual? It happens in most presidential elections. To the degree that I think President Obama can do better, I will continue to kvetch, push, and complain. As far as I can tell, that’s kind of what being an American is all about. I believe that politics should be a full contact sport, even with those in your own party. And don’t act too surprised, but I might just be there beside you and your kids on the lawn of the White House next inauguration. I’ll bring the green and you can bring the red.
And Anon @ 4:56,
As for the “childish optimism” of progressives, would that be the “childish optimism” that opposed slavery, child labor, mistreatment of workers, and the denial of women the right to vote? Maybe it was the “childish optimism” that spoke out against Jim Crow and segreation and for Civil Rights. Or perhaps it was the “childish optimism” that has said for decades that the GLBT community deserves to be treated just like everybody else? I contend that without the “childish optimism” of progressives, this country would have never achieved the milestones in social justice that we have. It was not moderation or middle of the road politics that yielded ANY of those results.
I think that I’ll just stick to my childishly optimistic beliefs, thank you very much.
@ lwtjb - I agree with you, but was quoting what I have read from progressives with healthy lifestyles who feel that they shouldn't be responsible for people who eat cheetos for three meals a day and don't get out of their chairs. I know there are many medical and health circumstances that have nothing to do with lifestyle choices, including injuries/accidents, birth defects, disease, etc., but since we have so many people with radical ideas in the spectrum, it is amazing that we got any kind of healthcare reform passed!:-)
ReplyDeleteI've been thinking of how to resolve their issues, perhaps some sort of credit for good health if there is a mandate? I'm not sure how this would be gauged. Some people haven't used medical services or visited hospitals in decades, so they aren't in agreement with being forced to buy something they don't use.
Time for a new post, Gryphen. Is it boring up there or what? Here I sit in the Upper Mojave Desert where the Canadian snow geese come for the winter. We are covered in snow with more coming down. The geese are freezing their fat little feet and honking, "WTF, WTF, WTF!?!?"
ReplyDeleteYou progressives who accuse anyone who defends the president of being sycophants are the height of hypocrisy. You spew Keith Olbermann talking points and Fired Dog Lake BS - neither of whom know crap about how government works - and then you bitch and moan about Obama and Gitmo when he has nothing to do with why it's still open. Yes, you are a part of the problem- you make us look as foolish as the tea party makes the right look.
ReplyDeleteI'm sick of it and I'm sick of having fools accuse other people of being in "lock step" for not hating the President and for being realistic and appreciating that he has gotten more done than any other Pres in a LONG time.
Irony is that you accuse us of this crap while you are nothing but Kos lemmings. Who's in lock step?
Learn about your government before you make fools of yourselves. Better yet, you try working in government. I dare you.
lwtjb said...Whoever thinks living a healthy lifestyle will prevent the need for medical care, he/she is deluded.
ReplyDelete-----
It can cut down medical care a lot. I'm 60 years old, and have had medical treatment six times in my life. 6 years old- tonsillitus. 9 years old-fractured collarbone. 3 Xs-strep throat in my teens. 21 yrs old - whiplash from car accident. In my twenties I got my recurring strep throat, and instead of going to the doctor, I followed Adelle Davis' nutritional advice from her book, and in two days it was gone, and I've never had strep throat again. Even though I only go to a doctor the equivalent once every ten years, I would pay for health insurance to help the economic deficit, and wouldn't mind having it for in case I get hurt skiing or something. I doubt if I will get cancer or anything requiring longterm medical treatment in the near future. My health is so excellent, I get hit on by twentysomethings men. I don't color my hair, it still isn't gray, and wear a size 2 and 4. I will eat occasional fast food, and desserts. I never deprive myself of anything. Have you read about the Hunzas? They live to be 140, women start to gray at 70, men have children and look 40 at 90? They have a food regimen that would be more difficult for Americans to follow. However, they walk for miles each day, and they laugh, and enjoy life. That, in my opinion, is one of the keys to their quality longevity, and practices most people can follow that doesn't cost anything.
Any time I hear people complain about Obama, I ask them if they think McCain and Snowdrift Snooki would've done better.
ReplyDeleteListen, Gasman, I am a progressive also, (and the anon @ 4:56), and you have proven exactly what I am talking about. You guys are so freaking rigid about your definition of success, and condescending when anyone accuses you of being part of the problem and not the solution.
ReplyDeleteThere is absolutely no way in hell Obama could have come in to office as a raging Progressive, without inflaming an already divided nation. He was accused of being a dreaded Socialist, he's a BLACK man, and he had to basically calm all the angry racists down. He had to tread very, very carefully. Anyone who thinks otherwise is woefully naive.
Stop telling people like me and phoebes to study our history. I am fully educated and I don't need someone like you lecturing me. We are both in support of progressive causes, it seems clear. What I object to, personally, is this refusal to truly accept reality.
We're not talking about agreeing with everything he does. We're not talking about being in lockstep with him. We're talking about waking up and smelling the coffee, and understanding that if you don't support him - and yes, get organized - these people will find a way to steal the election the next time around, dirty tricks and all. And all the whining - yes, whining - will have helped THEM out. How could anyone participate in that after how far we've come?
have you seen the pic of Bristol at the ACES game this past week
ReplyDeleteIts so difficult for us common folk who are out of the loop, to really see how things work.
ReplyDeleteWhenever the healthcare issue is discussed, I rarely see anyone mentioning how many millions were spent by the insurance industry, to sway members of congress from both parties, away from any true reform.
Had it been a simple matter of counting Democratic hands held up, over such issues, we WOULD have seen much more in the way of progress made.
Sadly, many of those hands were clutching payoffs and bribes, too heavy to allow them to lift their arms high enough to be seen.
This ugly aspect of elective government caused problems with all the other popular causes, such as Wall Street Reform, and every other issue in which the rich stood to lose ground.
There may be no solution to it, either...so to see the accomplishments of the 111th congress that DID make it through, is amazing.
With the Republicans acting the last two years as if they WERE the majority, caring little about putting America at huge risk in order to block anything that may make the President look good, and GETTING AWAY WITH IT, does not bode well for the future.
--Roger out of the hospital, thank God
yes, in support of anon 8:59's rant, have you read this article about Fox News?
ReplyDeletehttp://thetruthnews.info/propaganda.html
There is a horrendous takeover underfoot, so be on the same page, you don't have to be lock step with the Obama administration, but you sure better be willing to see why its crucial to support it.
I'm a proud progressive, and I don't mind the label "liberal" either.
ReplyDeleteHowever, I wanted this Constitutional Scholar to restore the Rule of Law in this country.
[1] Let the so-called Patriot Act expire and restore all of our lost Rights. (Instead, in the name of security, we've lost even more of our freedom.)
[2] Impeach and/or try Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rice, and their entire caboodle of cronies for War Crimes: lying us into illegal wars of regime change and rapaciousness resulting in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people, torture and rendition, using cluster bombs and white phosphorous on civilians, etc.. Cheney ought to be hanged for outing a spy in time of war... and so much more. (Instead, these villains are profiting from their crimes and writing books. AND AMERICA HAS LOST ALL MORAL STANDING.
[3] End the disastrous wars of occupation in Iraq and Afghanistan. (Instead, 2 years later, the occupations are becoming permanent, the embassies are city-sized, and the war-on-a-noun has spread to Pakistan, Somalia, Yemen, and wherever else we are bombing. Just like bombing in Cambodia and Laos and .... We never learn.)
[4] Get our economy off a war-footing and back to producing useful stuff: new technology, green jobs, the future, putting that squandered money into infrastructure = local jobs. (Instead, the bankers got their bonuses, the filthy rich got far richer, the war-profiteers are swimming in money... and average Americans lost jobs, homes, everything. The income gap is acute.
I was also hoping that Obama would be environmentally conscious, yet after the Deepwater Horizon, he kept waffling about a moratorium on this sort of scandalously-unsafe drilling, and he has yet to clean out the Bushies from the Agencies.
We must get off this dependence upon oil. In past centuries it was wood, coal, whale blubber, and each time we invented another technology to replace and IMPROVE our supplies of energy. Kennedy said that we'd be on the Moon in 10 years, we were inspired and we beat that goal. Obama came into office riding a bigger wave of popularity than Kennedy ever had. He could have set us the goal of energy independence: clean, renewable, profitable and technically advanced, with all the related jobs that drive would create. Gas is $4/gal, and it will only get worse as we continue to dig and drill and fight over fossil supplies. If we don't look to the future, we'll be burning cow chips at this rate.
Ending DADT and allowing gay marriage and some equality is going to happen. It is inevitable. (I say "some equality" because women do not yet have full equality and minorities still suffer.) It happened on Obama's watch, so he gets credit.
Promises broken, such as closing Gitmo and ending torture and ending the wars are worth several dozen of his promises kept, even DADT. I'm sorry, but allowing gay members to serve doesn't mean much when their service is dieing for a lie, dieing to prop up a corrupt warlord, dieing so that politicians and merchants and lobbyists can continue their danse macabre in our empty treasury.
A primary would weaken Obama, and that would be very, very bad. I will not vote for a Republican (they are insane or corrupt or both). However, if the election was held today, with escalating wars and deteriorating economy and the utter lack of Justice, I couldn't fill in the oval next to his name. I can't in good conscience enable those who are accessory to War Crimes.
I don't expect any President to do everything, however any President must lead.
anon@9:27 re: Bristol at Aces game
ReplyDeleteLink?
"Some people haven't used medical services or visited hospitals in decades, so they aren't in agreement with being forced to buy something they don't use."
ReplyDelete7:54 PM
My husband had not used medical services or visited hospitals for decades either. Then whamo. NO ONE IS IMMUNE. You may agree with me but I see this argument all the time - you only have health problems because you don't live right. It's a crock.
Then there are the folks who think you only need to get right with God.
@ 8:49 PM
ReplyDeleteYou should consider yourself lucky. You are certainly right that healthy habits can help keep you out of doctor's offices and hospitals. However, those habits are not iron clad guarantees. We did all those things for ourselves and STILL ended up with major health problems that devastated our financial life. To say nothing of our quality of life.
You can get hit head on by a drunk driver. You can be exposed to devastating disease. You could have cancer right now and not know it. You could have a stroke tomorrow and die. All the healthy living in the world will not protect you from every eventuality. EVERYBODY dies of something.
Lively post Gryphen. I'm with phoebes on this one.
ReplyDeleteAnyone who thinks what we need to do at this point in time is try Dick Cheney and Bush for war crimes is just not in touch with reality, sorry.
ReplyDeleteLike many, I would love to see those criminals pay. I personally believe they will, some way some how - whether you believe in karma or divine justice or just human nature.
But, to insist that this is what would be required for one's vote is just madness. Sorry.
People who are so high and mighty with their principles are just plain unreasonable, and seem not to want to face the fact that Obama knows a lot more now about the true reality of many issues than he did when he was running. Whether we are talking national security, or the economy, or the political. I think our blood would run cold if we had access to the information he now knows.
He can only do so much. Hinging one's vote on the closing of Guantanamo is painfully short sighted. I have every belief that Obama would have loved to close that place down. I think he would have loved to stop both wars. I think he would have loved the public option. I think he would love to jumpstart a green economy.
But he is hemmed in to a certain extent, that can't be denied, and much of it is not his fault - AT ALL. (Aside from wonky indifference to the urgent need for messaging, perhaps.) People need to grow up. They need to stop thinking they have the luxury of high ideals when we live in an imperfect world. Thanks, hauksdottir, for demonstrating the childish insistence on getting everything one wants that some of us have observed in the more rigid members of our progressive movement. This way of seeing things will only lead to paralysis.
We can't afford this type of idealism. Again, any vote not cast to keep Obama in office, should he lose the White House in 2012, is a vote FOR the frightening alternative - as any GOP President would surely be. Live with that.
Anon@6.15a - you are absolutely spot on in your assessment. We'd all like Bush/Cheney, et al to go to jail for a life time, but now is NOT the time.
ReplyDeleteThanks phoebes. I get so worked up that I rant, I know. But really, it's like kids wanting to quit a game because they aren't winning.
ReplyDeleteHey, people - we aren't quitters! Obama invoked the North Star symbol recently to remind people about how long it took for African Americans to gain their civil rights. They didn't have the option of giving up, now did they? We still don't.
Listen, it's going to get a lot worse in the coming months. If you all decide we can risk having the Boehner gang in our White House again, by all means vote third party or withhold your vote from Obama. But I swear, if he loses the Presidency in 2012, I will never forgive you all. You can go ahead and say it was his own doing, and blame him for not being far enough to the left, but if you honestly believe he could have successfully gotten away with that in our current climate and with our current problems, I really think you are dreaming.
There was a poster on another thread who said they weren't going to support Obama anymore because he allowed the payroll tax holiday in the recent budget package. This was someone who claimed to be well off, who had benefited from the Bush era economic policies, but just couldn't enable such an outrageous affront to Social Security. They lectured us about how naive some of us were about the GOP plans to dismantle it, blah blah blah. (As if we weren't well aware of their agenda.) This is the sort of thing that is just so ridiculous. Apparently if Obama isn't perfect, he must be dropped?
We need to keep our eye on the prize, long term. We need to keep the bigger picture in our minds at all times. There will be losses, there will be compromise. But there will be gains, very significant ones. Let's focus on what's right and not on everything that's wrong. Let's actually DO something and stop undercutting those who are trying to make a difference. Sitting at home and naysaying is the exact opposite of that, AND employing one's sacred right to vote in a punitive manner, when at least some good was done, is absolutely that.
Anon @ 859,
ReplyDeletePlease cite my rigidity. I have NOT bitched about specific programs not getting passed. I understand that political give and take means that nobody gets everything that they want.
If you read my posts carefully, or not so carefully, what I was complaining about was how amateurish the game being played by the White House appeared. Obama has not projected a consistent air of strength and leadership. There have been flashes, but no sustained muscle. I am NOT complaining about single payer or the public option not being adopted.
My refusal to accept reality? How about the reality that the GOP has the House now. How's that for reality? I blame that on the White House. A stronger president who more consistently called out GOP bullshit might well have prevented that. Obama had historic levels of support and seemed EXTREMELY reluctant to do anything with it. What good is political capital if you don't spend it? He has certainly not banked any of that for use with the GOP this session of Congress. If the GOP controlled the message before, how does the president think that he'll get anything done now?
I define success by results. Allowing the GOP to whine about death panels, killing grandma, and socialism is not exactly my idea of success.
As to be lectured by me, that is what I do for a living, so it is an occupational hazard.
Please note that I am not complaining about specific pet causes not being passed. I am critiquing the process and style. I think that can be improved. I think that it is immature to suggest that any criticism of Obama is unwarranted.
I probably would have bitched during the terms of Washington and Lincoln, too. They weren't perfect either.
See, there you go Mr. Gasman - I am immature, am I? Always with the condescension; those of us who are willing to accept less than perfect are just undereducated, under-informed, now immature...
ReplyDeleteI have completely acknowledged that the Obama White House has been weak on messaging, but when you are dealing with the devil at some point you have to ignore it/them and do some actual work.
No, Obama hasn't gotten out in the Rose Garden at every opportunity and tried to snowjob the American electorate like his predecessor. No, he hasn't engaged assholes like Palin and Boehner and the rest. He has been busy working on policy, trying to figure out strategy in a hostile environment. If that makes him poor at politics, then so be it.
My criticism of the disgruntled left still stands, and yes, you were sufficiently specific, thank you. In my opinion, unreasonable and out of touch about where we are at this moment, surely.
I take it you are probably a professor? Perhaps that's why you are being so hard on Obama, as you understand the personality type. Let's bring it out into the real world. (Don't get me wrong, some of my nearest and dearest are in academia.) Probably Obama's greatest weakness is his intellectualism. I consider it an incredible asset, however.
Not going to answer on this thread again - go for the last word any of you. I am sick of the conversation, as it's clear some have dug their heels in and will cling to their precious principles while watching a Republican get sworn in in January 2013.
Anon @ 9:29,
ReplyDeleteIf you think that you are being reasonable and have not dug in YOUR heels, you are deluded. It's clear that you have made up your mind about me and anyone else who is not a sycophantic cheerleader for Obama. That opinion sounds decidedly less than reasonable to me.
You understand my personality type? You don't know shit about me yet you state very categorically what I do and do not believe and tell me in no uncertain terms what my personal shortcomings are. You've projected all sorts of errant traits on me simply because I said I disagreed with your assessment of Obama's performance. You think that sounds mature?
Please don't castigate people who express a difference of opinion on an individual politician's performance. That strikes me as silly. This is America, there will ALWAYS be a difference of opinion regarding politicians of any stripe. Obama is no different. He gets no pass from me for any reason other than when he does a superb job. I just happen to think he can do better. That is all that I have ever said. Anything else ascribed to me is projection on your part.
While we're at it, instead of using "Anon" it would be more helpful to adopt a handle, any handle, and stick to it. With so many Anons posting there is no continuity. If I post, my ID is constant so regulars know who I am. You have no identity beyond an individual post. In my opinion it limits your ability to contribute and be taken as seriously.
Again, just my two cents worth, and it may not even be worth that much.
Can't resist - what should my handle be, let's see.... Judy, or Bart, or Neanderthal 2011? Does that make people feel better? So you can follow my posts and get ready to do battle with me when I share my thoughts? Sorry, not going to happen. These threads are not social clubs, I have said it before. They are not a meeting of personalities. They are not organizations with entrenched dynamics and pecking orders, as they would be if everyone had to use a consistent identifying label. They are a place to post thoughts and ideas, period. There are people on these blogs who pridefully and happily have "identities". It's just as freaking anonymous as my Anonymous. If you enjoy that, that's great, but it's certainly not a requirement for honest and fruitful discussion.
ReplyDeleteI can see I got under someone's skin. Fine. The reason people like me get so irate, and feel so hopeless, when we hear people bitching about Obama "doing better" is that it contributes to the horse race mentality of the MSM - they just feed on the disgruntled Left, as much as they feed on empty souls like Sarah Palin. When we contribute to that by focusing only on the negative, it's supremely frustrating. You are just playing into the corporate media's hands by saying he sucks at the political side, that he squandered capital. They just love that! And you are probably vastly underestimating the magnitude of the challenges he faced and will continue to face.
I even wonder if Obama's team now don't feel quite pleased that they will be able to show these creeps up for what they are, when they don't accomplish anything, by 2012. Just watch. We can count on Boehner's troops to behave horribly in the coming months, and that can only help us in the end. If they were still in the minority they would be able to claim only hypothetical attributes, the easiest thing in the world. Now the proof will be in the pudding.
I will tell you this, though. For anyone who benefited from the extension of health coverage for minors up to 26, or from the elimination of the IMMORAL pre-existing condition policies for health care coverage - that's enough to stand by this President. That's change we can believe in and has made an astonishing difference in many people's lives. That's just one example. Bit by bit, day by day. That's how it's done.
I am not immature. I am angry.
I don't think we should be helping the GOP bash and destroy Obama, when he has only been in office two years. I think it's premature. And I think not showing patience is the most immature behavior of all.
Can't resist - what should my handle be, let's see.... Judy, or Bart, or Neanderthal 2011? Does that make people feel better? So you can follow my posts and get ready to do battle with me when I share my thoughts? Sorry, not going to happen. These threads are not social clubs, I have said it before. They are not a meeting of personalities. They are not organizations with entrenched dynamics and pecking orders, as they would be if everyone had to use a consistent identifying label. They are a place to post thoughts and ideas, period. There are people on these blogs who pridefully and happily have "identities". It's just as freaking anonymous as my Anonymous. If you enjoy that, that's great, but it's certainly not a requirement for honest and fruitful discussion.
ReplyDeleteI can see I got under someone's skin. Fine. The reason people like me get so irate, and feel so hopeless, when we hear people bitching about Obama "doing better" is that it contributes to the horse race mentality of the MSM - they just feed on the disgruntled Left, as much as they feed on empty souls like Sarah Palin. When we contribute to that by focusing only on the negative, it's supremely frustrating. You are just playing into the corporate media's hands by saying he sucks at the political side, that he squandered capital. They just love that! And you are probably vastly underestimating the magnitude of the challenges he faced and will continue to face.
I even wonder if Obama's team now don't feel quite pleased that they will be able to show these creeps up for what they are, when they don't accomplish anything, by 2012. Just watch. We can count on Boehner's troops to behave horribly in the coming months, and that can only help us in the end. If they were still in the minority they would be able to claim only hypothetical attributes, the easiest thing in the world. Now the proof will be in the pudding.
Continued:
ReplyDeleteI will tell you this, though. For anyone who benefited from the extension of health coverage for minors up to 26, or from the elimination of the IMMORAL pre-existing condition policies for health care coverage - that's enough to stand by this President. That's change we can believe in and has made an astonishing difference in many people's lives. That's just one example. Bit by bit, day by day. That's how it's done.
I am not immature. I am angry.
I don't think we should be helping the GOP bash and destroy Obama, when he has only been in office two years. I think it's premature. And I think not showing patience is the most immature behavior of all.
To Anonymous @ 8:49 PM
ReplyDeleteI am glad for you that you are in good health and are not plagued by serious health issues. But the factors affecting your health have absolutley nothing to do with with the million of OTHER people in this country of the world.
So your health is currently "so excellent". Well, good for you.
And your doubting that you will get cancer or anything requiring longterm medical treatment in the near future is pure delusional.
I am sure you remember Dana Reeves, the the widow of the actor Christopher Reeve, a lifelong nonsmoker who died of lung cancer at age 44. She had never smoked a day in her life and she practices those good lifestyle choices you mentioned. Yet she died of LUNG CANCER.
I myself have several serious medical issues that are not related to lifestyle unless you consider being born into paternal and maternal families whose member suffered with one or more major health issuse.
So don't pat yourself on the back too soon, life and living has a way of catching up to you.
---
BTW, because I have serious health issues and my insurance is not operational in the state where I need to move, I have been forced to remain in my current state.
With the elimination of the pre-existing condition used to deny people like me coverage, I can now move and not be afraid that I will go without health care coverage.
And as for those who don't want to carry coverage and object to the mandate requiring everyone obtain coverage, come back and tell us how you hate carring health insurance WHEN you or your child suffer a catastrophic illness.