Part One.
Part Two.
Part Three.
Watching this makes me wish that there were more people like Jon Stewart out there willing to discuss this issue in such a respectful and intelligent manner with those on the other side. I myself have had conversations very much like this one, probably not as humorous but equally calm and respectful.
In my experience this approach works much better than the name calling and accusations ever will.
I am going to show this interview to some of my "Pro-Life" friends. I believe it will start a very interesting dialogue.
I ♥ Jon Stewart! I do like how he can (somehow) interact with the Redshirts and its doesn't escalate into a screamfest...that's a great talent. A good thing.
ReplyDeleteWe are ALL pro life! I think the phrase "pro choice" is a bad one as it implies that there is always a choice.
ReplyDeleteIn fact the choice part should be reserved for extrodinary circumstances. We need to make the availability of the "morning after" pill widely known. I believe it's available without a prescription. You'll never convince me that a zygot is a human life. St. Thomas Aquinas once declared that life begins at "quickening". I can accept that and so did the Catholic church for centuries. This whole issue of life begins at conception came about some years ago with the rise of the religious right.
Question, do we have funerals for miscarriages? Even mama nature knows there is a time to admit a mistake and take corrective actions.
Huckabee's mantra was that every life is precious and has worth. He is most concerned with the nine months before birth. But the flaw is that both he and his party don't value people afterward. If they did, they would be against the death penalty and wars of any kind. They would not tolerate the suffering of others due to hunger, disease, discrimination yet they routinely vote against any measure that would address these problems. Your video and description of the Angry Red Shirts show their hatred towards some of their fellow man.
ReplyDeleteWhen I was writing the above, a phrase came to mind, "With malice toward none with charity for all." I looked it up, and I think this is a good time to revisit Abraham Lincoln (2nd Inaugural Address, March 1865)
"With malice toward none, with charity for all, with firmness in the right as God gives us to see the right, let us strive on to finish the work we are in; to bind up the nation's wounds; to care for him who shall have borne the battle, and for his widow and his orphan- to do all which may achieve and cherish a just and lasting peace, among ourselves, and with all nations."
Can the Republicans of today support this message? Are they about healing, lifting up, cherishing every life until its conclusion, or are they the party of hatred and "NO!"
When a man is raped by a family member and forced to carry the child of that rapist every day of nine months knowing that is the child of rape then abortion will become a sacrement!
ReplyDeleteOT, but there's a funny article about Levi at
ReplyDeletehttp://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2009-06-16/shopping-with-levi-johnston/3/
It's all about Tank teaching Levi how to dress and stay open minded about the different people he meets. Just the fact that Levi is pallin' around with a black man makes me like him. One interesting tidbit: Levi's father is Mexican (with a name like Johnston?) and his mom is Canadian? Is this true?
To what is the "quickening" referring?
ReplyDeleteOne thing the anti-choice crowd never seems to get is that it's expensive to give birth and horridly expensive to raise a child. I've read that eighty-something percent of abortions are for economic reasons. Yet Huck and Co. oppose universal health care and welfare. So if I'm scraping by on minimum wage, how am I supposed to pay for my prenatal care and delivery? Or for someone to watch the child when I go back to work for a pittance? Or the medical care and all the other costs involved in caring for a child for 18 yrs? If they make me have this child, will they pay my bills? Nope.
ReplyDeleteAnd what about the 1 billion people--"precious lives"-- in the world who are starving? Don't see them doing anything to save them. Nothing if not inconsistent.
Quickening is when the mother feels the baby move for the first time. I've been meaning to look up St. Thomas all morning, but haven't done it yet.
ReplyDeleteIf the baby jezuz crap is taken out of the discussion then the discussion can be elevated to at least the sensible level. Then it can become a question of morality and what is consistent with betterment of the species. Morality can be easily defined if it's not complicated by religious dogma. As long as religious superstition is being considered there will be no progress.
ReplyDeleteFwiw, following Roe vs. Wade decision by about 15 years there was a noticable drop in the U.S. crime rate. The reason: Unwanted fetuses were aborted more regularly and didn't grow up to be unwanted teenagers. The religious right wackos don't want to have to recall that now.
So it's nice to play the political games over an important issue such as a woman's right to choose but in the end analysis, Huckabee's motives are all wrong. That's my opinion and it's every bit as valid as a Christian's opinion. Mush more sensible too!
When movement of the fetus is 1st felt
ReplyDeleteTo all those who say that life begins at conception I say, yes, and and about half of those lives never properly imbed in the uterus wall and end up flushed down the toliet. Mother Nature doesn't think every life is precious.
ReplyDeleteEducation is the key.
I believe "quickening" referred to something we would now call viability. Reading stories about late-term abortion and the terrible pain these women went through when they had no choice but to terminate, it almost seems the most understandable abortions are late-term!!
ReplyDeleteBut in the end, what is happening in my uterus is my business. Everything else is just noise.
Two middle-aged white men debating abortion. (Sigh)
ReplyDeleteUntil the Republicans adopt universal health coverage and other social programs to assist women of lower income brackets those women will choose to not complete their pregnancy due to financial constraints.
ReplyDeleteMy father always has said that the right "loves children when they are in the womb, but won't do a damn thing to help them financially once they are born".
That's the key here, if the right would like for every woman to take her pregnancy to term some need help; some need assistance. If every life is indeed precious then women need reassurance that having this child will not be financially painful. As was stated by both Huckabee and Stewart, no woman WANTS to choose abortion but some feel that they have to.
The right can't have it both ways and until they cough up the cash to help women otherwise unable to afford a child they will have to deal with the fact that many women choose to terminate. It's a simple as that.
Livvy said...
ReplyDeleteWe are ALL pro life! I think the phrase "pro choice" is a bad one as it implies that there is always a choice.
Question, do we have funerals for miscarriages? Even mama nature knows there is a time to admit a mistake and take corrective actions.
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Livvy-great post (sorry I edition the part I'm commenting on)
Did you know GINO this year started issuing BC for stillborn's????
Wonder if that is why Ms Woolery was asked to step down?
SP must be taking credit where none is due.
ReplyDeleteIssuing birth certificates and death certificates for stillborns isn't new in Alaska:
I know a Mom&Dad who waited several months after their stillborn baby to conduct a memorial service because they needed the time to grieve. I think it was at about six months they went to claim the body and have a funeral. They did receive a birth certificate, but she was also nearly full term at time of death.
It may depend on the term of the pregnancy at delivery [i.e., the difference between when it's called a miscarriage vs stillborn]. With that in mind, delivery pre-term of a non-viable fetus is medically called an abortion.
Quickening is when the Mother feels the fetus' movements and distinquish them from the normal and usual actions of her innards - somewhere between 12 and 16 weeks average.
Quickening was not defined as when the embryo or fetus first moves biologically; it was used to assign the time when the Spirit (e.g. soul) entered the body.
I always think of salmon spawing: a fish drops about 3 million eggs into a bed of gravel and a couple of males are hoping to drop their milt at the same time in hopes that the two join and become an embryo. The new organisms have to survive bacteria, predators, extreme weather and/or unpredictable food supply just to get to the next season where they can grow or move out to the ocean. Next they are pelagic fodder for birds, other fish and marine mammals. As they return to spawn again, they are hunted by land-based predators.
ReplyDeleteAbout one percent may return to spawn again.
IMO God made the salmon and people the same: some make it, some don't; we are all in the food chain.
IMO anti-choice people want more warm bodies for the war machine, to be cheap labor: this attitude is not PRO-life, to me - it is based in selfishness and greed.
Human life is no longer valued because, in free market terms, supply outstrips demand.
There is an incredible book called "Journey of Souls' by Michael Newton, PhD and a the follow up "Destiny Of Souls" which explores the results of years of life between lives hypnosis research. Both have been new age bestsellers and can be ordered at most bookshops.
ReplyDeleteNewton stumbled upon information about past lives while doing regression work with clients, and from there found out that each of us has an eternal soul that lives many many lives, with a rich and ongoing life as a spirit between lives. Through his subjects own words in numerous sessions over many years he step by step illustrates all the complexity of this between life existence, as well as how we plan our own lives in advance in order to set out certain problems and lessons to be learned on earth, as well as connect with other souls we are familiar with, all the while allowing for free will to operate.
There are chapters devoted to conception and the entry of the soul into the body. Basically the posts above about "quickening" and Aquinas agree...when the baby moves, it is an indication the soul is present. The soul does not necessarily inhabit the body at conception, and may join with the body at various times during development of the fetus, and may even wait till the moment of birth. As in everything else, the soul has choices and decides how best to proceed to fit its needs for that life.
These are fascinating books and written without new agey fluff or preaching of any kind, Newton was an accomplished highly trained psychologist and very respected by his colleagues. He studied this subject for years before he took the professional risk of publishing his findings. I urge anyone who has any interest in this subject or questions about death (who doesn't?) to pick up one of these books, and at least give the information contained in them a whirl.
Huckabee is a stone-cold hypocrite. He's pro-death penalty and he's a member of a party that does everything in their power to keep people from receiving basic services to improve their lives. Like AKPetMom's dad said, they don't give a CRAP what happens to fetuses once they are born.
ReplyDeleteFunny how the lives of Iraqi children didn't really matter to the Republicans.
ReplyDeleteWhat Bretta said. The Catholic Church only started making abortion a big issue after the Black Plague had desimated the population of Europe. Many midwives and herbalists were put to death as "witches" because of their knowledge of birth control. The bearing of large numbers of children became important to restore a commodity: cheap human labor.
ReplyDelete