Monday, November 30, 2009

Sarah Palin uses letter from angry 95 year old to lecture President Obama.

As Thanksgiving festivities wind down we contemplate all we have to be thankful for as free Americans! We head into the Christmas season wishing for leadership in Washington that reflects our commitment to the values and ideals that have built the freest and most prosperous and generous nation on earth.

Heading into December and Tuesday’s announcement of our nation’s strategy in Afghanistan, I ask the President to reassure us that the administration is in this War on Terror to win.

Win the "War on Terror"? There is no such thing as a "War on Terror"! You cannot wage a war on an emotion! That is a left over neo-con talking point from the Bush administration.

So, giving her the benefit of the doubt, Caribou Barbie must mean to win the "war" in Afghanistan. But is that any more logical? History teaches us that NOBODY actually wins a war in Afghanistan. It is really only a contest of endurance. A long distance run with no finish line to signal the end. The Soviet Union lasted ten years, but the war may also have figured prominently in the ultimate demise of the Communist government. Is THAT what Sarah Palin hopes will be the future of this nation? The end of our government?

Should America continue to blindly wage George Bush's war until our government meets the same fate as the USSR? Is that the kind of "patriotism" embraced by Palin and her teabaggin' buddies?

And I’ll pass along the following from Harold B. Estes, a 95-year-old member of the Greatest Generation: “I realize you never served in the military and never had to defend your country with your life, but you’re the Commander-in-Chief now, son. Do your job. When your battle-hardened field General asks you for 40,000 more troops to complete the mission, give them to him. But if you’re not in this fight to win, then get out.”

There is a reason that we have a civilian government in control of the military. Soldiers may know how to win battles, but they do not know how to conduct wars. Yes President Obama needs to listen to his generals. As well as his advisers, the Senate, the Congress, and the American people whose children are dying in this "war". He needs to hear them all, and then make the very best decision that he is able to make based on the options still available to him. And even still he will be "damned if he does, and damned if he doesn't". Sarah Palin is too simple minded and full of talking points to understand that complexity. Which is why she can NEVER be allowed near the White House.

Thank you, Mr. President. Please tell us on Tuesday that America is in it to win. (Slogan now available on t-shirts at SarahPAC for $19.99. Also get a copy of "Going Rogue" for an additional $1.50! I added that part.)

- Sarah Palin

PS: You can read Mr. Estes' complete letter here.

As for the 95 year old man whose letter Palin is using as a shield behind which to attack the President, well I think we can determine the prism through which he is viewing this Presidency fairly accurately.

In his letter Mr. Estes attributes the phrase," We're no longer a Christian nation", to the President when in fact that is a misquote taken from Fox News and deceitful direct mailings from various GOP operatives.

He also chides the President for offering a mea culpa to our European allies after the dismissive way they were treated by the Bush administration. Which of course went a very long way toward repairing our reputation around the world, after George Bush made us look like a nation of thugs and bullies. Unsurprisingly Mr. Estes has no criticism for our last president whatsoever.

The letter also has hints of racism ("You mean you don't want us to do what you did when that white cop used force to subdue that black college professor in Massachusetts who was putting up a fight ?"), Glenn Beck retreads (I can't figure out what country you are the president of), and a touch of batshit "birther" blather (Shape up and start acting like an American.If you don't, I'll do what I can to see you get shipped out of that fancy rental on Pennsylvania Avenue). So we have a FOX News junkie, with an "America, love it or leave it" mentality, angry that the "darkie" in the White House is daring to act like he is in charge.

This is actually one of Palin's more intelligent attempts to undermine the authority of our President. She seems to have realized that, after many of us have read her stupid book, most people don't think she can find her ass with a flashlight and a road map. So she finds some old cranky coot and uses his letter to do her dirty work for her. "See I am not the ONLY one who thinks the secret terrorist loving Muslim is doing a crappy job!"

Nice try Sarah Palin ghostwriter, but even if you get a truckload of letters from senior citizens, it will still not give credibility to your argument.

Obama was elected to end the wars, not entrench us further into this endless conflict.

THAT is what the American people REALLY want. In the eminently quotable words of Sarah Palin herself, "We win, you lose". Get used to it.

Update: I have received a number of comments from people saying that this letter is a fake. But according to Snopes.com it is real. I trust those guys to get it right. It is still a bunch of hooey, but it is hooey that came from an actual 95 year old man.

56 comments:

  1. Anonymous1:39 PM

    "Moderate Republican" posted a comment at Bree Palin, saying the letter is "fabricated." (Sorry, I can't copy/paste here.)

    Yet another Palin lie?

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  2. Anonymous1:41 PM

    You didn't point out how Sarah's referring to the CIC as "son" is highly disrespectful, and possibly racist (one step away from "boy").

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  3. johnie2xs1:50 PM

    Re-instate the draft, like Charlie Rangle said a couple of years ago, and see how fast the Rethuglicans throw their bodies in the way to protect their golden proginy.
    I'm waiting to hear what Obama has to say tomorrow, but I'm not very hopeful. The leaked number of 34k more in the way of troops is a true bummer. At the rate of a mil a year per soldier, the sobering number of 34 billion for one years stay, is a hell of a price to pay for what I feel will be little return. And that's not even mentioning the loss of life and other assorted casualties, which will impact the VA for decades.

    Bush should rot in hell,
    for starting this whole mess.

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  4. Anonymous1:52 PM

    See Bree's blog. Someone said that letter was fabricated. Taken off a memorial. Check out the comment section, comment by "Moderate Republican."

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  5. speck backfire palin1:54 PM

    So Pres. Obama got a letter from some 95 year old man who watches too much Fox News. woop-de-do. I volunteer at a nursing home for veterans - I love those old guys and we all are grateful for what they did during WWII but but at the age of 95 I can guarantee this old dude is a narrow-minded racist. It seems to be a generational thing. Otherwise decent white men that age are racist to the core.

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  6. Check out "Mod" Republican's comment about this letter over at Bree Palin's-- MR says this letter is a fake--

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  7. Gasman2:05 PM

    I am getting tired of the “Greatest Generation” myth. I’ll grant that they pulled together to win WW II. However, before and after that feat of strength and endurance, here in the land of the free, we had segregation, Jim Crow, lynchings, and a coordinated terrorist campaign to intimidate an entire race into submission. That too, was the handiwork of the “Greatest Generation.” Enough of that crap. Not only were they not the greatest, they were a damned sight inferior in many ways. Exhibit A: 95 year old Harold B. Estes.

    Mr. Estes sounds as if he’d like to roll back the clock a few decades and return to that fine old time in our history when whites ruled the roost. I’m sure he erred when he referred to the President of the United States of America as “son.” I’m sure he meant “boy.”

    Palin is a deceitful liar who can’t seem to put forward anything other than lies, disinformation, and a not-so-subtle subtext of racial animus. Whether she crafts the words herself or merely endorses them, she is responsible for the content. With this latest missive authored by an bitter, angry, bigoted old coot, Palin has lowered the bar of her expectations even further.

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  8. Anonymous2:07 PM

    The worst is that Sarah is posting a forwarded hate email as a true news fact. If this is how she gets her news ??????? OMG

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  9. Gryphen - Excellent post! We already know Pres. Obama is increasing troops in Afghanistan and will explain his strategy to the nation tomorrow. I find it strange and suspect that Palin would put this on facebook today.

    A commenter on Bree's blog raised the question about where Harold lives. Heres a quote from the 1st paragraph:
    "Now I live in a "rest home" located on the western end of Pearl Harbor allowing me to keep alive the memories of 23 years of service to my country."

    And here's his signature
    Sincerely,
    Harold B. Estes

    McAlpin , FL

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  10. Anonymous2:15 PM

    Gryphen,
    The following was posted on Bree's blog (old soldier may actually be dead soldier whose name and identity are being used to lash out at Obama):
    Moderate Republican said...

    He claims to live in a "rest home". This is a fabricated letter from someone "resting" in the Arizona Memorial. This name was taken off the plate honoring all the dead who currently are entombed in the USS Arizona, which still leaks oil. I have been to that Memorial. I have rendered honors to that Memorial while serving as Officer of the Deck, Underway, Making Way, aboard a USN warship. This is protocol for all commissioned USN ships who pass the Memorial.

    My grandfather served as a marine in WWII, my father served 3 tours in Vietnam, and I myself served on a Knox Class Frigate in Pearl Harbor, HI. My oldest son, in fact, was born at Tripler Army Hospital.

    Sorry if this is a bit run-on, but stunts like this chit get my blood boiling.

    Shame on you Sarah.
    November 30, 2009 4:37 PM

    Don't know if this is so or not, but you may want to look into this aspect.

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  11. Great post, Gryphen. She's really undermining the constitution when she doesn't respect the very constitutional idea of civilian control of the military.

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  12. Anonymous2:17 PM

    One more thing:
    Am I recalling correctly that Obama's grandfather also fought in WWII?

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  13. Anonymous2:22 PM

    Joe the Plumber was too young. He'll be around for decades and he's hard to control. A 95 year-old is much more suited to the Republican game of whipping up hate via the "ordinary American". And unlike Joe the Plumber, this guy will fade away via the grim reaper.

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  14. Anonymous2:34 PM

    I guess the 95 year old vet didn't see a lot of folks die in combat (if he did he'd have a more thoughful approach to sending our young folks into a meatgrinder). And it seems he didn't watch General Westmorland escalate the Viet Nam war over-and-over in the '60s. I quess the 95 year old never read about Alexander trying to conquer Afganistan, or the Brits, or the Russians. Sheesh, everyone is entitled to their opinion, but it doesn't mean squatt if the opinion is as dumb as Palin.

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  15. Anonymous2:38 PM

    She is such a fake. Go back to Alaska and dream of reliving a beauty pageant on your own time, Sarah Palin.

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  16. Anonymous2:42 PM

    Saw the update.
    Too bad the old geezer can't figure out whether he's from Pearl Harbor, HA or McAlpin, FL.

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  17. I don't buy this letter story one bit. It's just another COIN CONSPIRACY story.

    I also don't buy the authentication of it ... and I wrote to a Hawaii paper asking them to check this out .. I expect it to be debunked very soon.

    Maybe others could write and suggest that this story be investigated? Even if true, the old guy is a human interest story!

    Shame on them using a old Vet for their propaganda.

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  18. Anonymous2:51 PM

    Well, if they produced the letter, then I suppose they can produce the 95-year-old-man who wrote the letter. He should be able to back up the authenticity of the statements he's made - or that someone has made for him. If it's coming from Palin - then we know it's written by one of her on-staff ghost writers. I think Rachel Maddow should get right on it - she has a great investigative staff.

    Gosh, possibly another LIE from Palin.

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  19. Anonymous3:05 PM

    Scarah:
    You are the lowest life form I can think of. No one in your "clan" is a veteran. Track got sent off for getting in trouble with the law...so STFU.
    So you use some ol' koot to insult our Commander in Cheif because you ARE a coward and a bully and YOU LOST! YOU are spiteful,hateful & vengeful and you will lose again. Chuck never served yet you sent him to do your ugly deeds for you on a US base.
    YOU are disgusting and ugly inside and out.

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  20. Snopes has said Estes is real and have heard the letter is real. They have yet to contact Estes in person. However, the letter was sent to Congress.org by supposedly someone Estes emailed in FLA.

    hrrp://www.snopes.com/politics/soapbox/haroldestes.asp

    I looked up Estes and yes he does exist. Regardless, he sees war through the lens of WW2 and this mess we are in holds no comaprison. Whether he used the word "son" in a racist manner or not; it's not uncommon for folks that age to use that term. I have a 97 yr. old Uncle, WW2 vet, sharp as a tack that calls all men younger than him son...oh, and he voted for Obama.
    Anyway, Palin is just looking to stoke up some more BS military cred and of course her he-doesn't-see-America-like-us rabid base. Unfortunately for her, she's as transparent as window glass. As a Vietnam era vet I find her attempts to live vicariously through the military offensive. Oh and BTW, Sarah (or whatever minion of yours reads this blog because we all know someone does) I am a "real" American, a female, a veteran, raised in the heartland, the oldest of 5 kids of a teacher Father, college graduate...sound familiar Sarah? Never attempt to infer I or any other citizen of this nation is anything other than that. You, Palin, on the other hand wrap yourself in phony piety and patriotism and yet you have no idea of self sacrifice. Oh, and just to really tweak your your cotton candy brain I'm, also a lifelong DEMOCRAT, aka progressive, liberal, that cared enough for this country as to unselfishly give my time in service. And unlike you, Sarah, I don't belittle those that choose not to serve in today's all volunteer military as there are many ways to give...something that you would do well to learn. Life is more than platitudes and sound bites. It's about helping each other without ridiculous prerequisites. It's about actual caring and putting that value into practice.

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  21. Anonymous3:17 PM

    It is a real person.

    ========
    The decommissioned battleship Missouri (BB-63) is illuminated by the setting sun during a tribute ceremony for retired Chief Boatswain's Mate Harold B. Estes at Pearl Harbor, Hawaii 17 Nov. 2004. More than 200 guests paid tribute to Estes, who after retiring from the Navy in 1955, has received numerous awards from the Secretary of the Navy for public service and involvement in the Sea Services. Estes is also known for helping to bring the Missouri and Bowfin(SS-287) to Pearl Harbor as floating museums.

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  22. Anonymous3:28 PM

    My ninety-year-old MIL dictates letters to President Obama, and her caregiver writes them down. She most recently was concerned about the saline levels of the estuaries in the Apalachicola Bay, and wanted to know if the Army Corps of Engineers could lend a hand. Smart lady!

    But most editors can tell you (and this was my experience, too) that a letter to the editor is MUCH more likely to get published if the author is eight years old, and says so, or begins, "I am ninety-five years of age, and..."

    Mrs. Tarquin Biscuitbarrel

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  23. Gasman3:49 PM

    What, Harold Estes isn't real? Hmm, could Palin be pedaling yet ANOTHER lie? I am shocked, I tell you, simply shocked!

    What amazes me still is that she is so sloppy in how she lies. She doesn't seem to care that it is easy to rebut her. Sure, her sheeple flock don't care, but the rest of us do. If she wants higher office - albeit however briefly - or wants to sell more books or action figures or whatever, she is going to need to expand her market beyond the fold. If she keeps lyin' those of us outside the flock are not likely to help her succeed.

    Sarah Palin is a moron.

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  24. phoebes-in-santa fe4:39 PM

    I'm confused, is Harold Estes real or a name on a monument. When will we know the truth.

    Oh, and for all of you, Mrs TBB, in particular, MY 80's and 90's relatives are ALL liberals, and voted for Obama. My dad, who died three years ago at the age of 92, was a life-long Democrat and political historian who loved talking about politics and political figures with my two sons, and would have adored this past political campaign. He would have reveled in the nuances. Fortunately, he was able to vote for Obama, at least for Senate as he lived in Chicago.

    And, curiously, he was stationed for three long years in the Alaskan Aleutian Islands during WW2. I would have loved to hear what he would have said about Sarah Palin!

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  25. Anonymous4:39 PM

    And, the Estes name does appear on the USS Arizona Memorial a couple of times. . .but not with a 'Harold.'

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  26. Anonymous4:44 PM

    This flat chested bag of bones is gettin on my last nerve I tell ya.

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  27. Anonymous4:49 PM

    I didn't go to the original source. Did she really write "that white cop used force to subdue that black professor...who was putting up a fight?"

    Would it have been too hard to google the names of the cop and the professor? Or maybe it undermined her point that a WHITE COP had to subdue a BLACK PROFESSOR (glossing over, either purposefully or out of ignorance the nuances of the encounter). In the context of her point, why does the race of the cop and professor even matter? What message is she given to her "Real American" base?

    Given the recent comments by her dad about her reasons for leaving Hawaii, Sarah's looking more than just a litte bit racist.

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  28. Anonymous4:50 PM

    Sarah Palin is the most un-patriotic person I have ever "known". Palin and simple.

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  29. Point of clarification.

    Sarah Palin did not use the term "son", that was from Harold Estes letter.

    She also did not say "You mean you don't want us to do what you did when that white cop used force to subdue that black college professor in Massachusetts who was putting up a fight ?", that is also from the Estes letter.

    However it is quite clear to almost everybody, that Palin is using this 95 year old man to say the things to the President that she feels, but dare not say herself.

    Why else would she have chosen THAT particular letter to post on her Facebook?

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  30. MacAndCheeseWiz5:14 PM

    What? Sarah hiding behind a ghostwriter, exploiting a 95 year old as a flak jacket while tossing grenades?

    Come On, Sarah, grow a spine! Go "debate" YOUR President one on one, live, on public tv. You can "challenge" him like you did for a run, using the hootchie crouching photo from Newsweek Magazine.

    She's obviously not a well woman, maybe she can do some "Fancy pageant walking" to get a rise from the old geezer- that's how she rolls.

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  31. Anonymous5:26 PM

    Sorry Gryphen and thanks for clarifying the race comment. Of course, as you point out, the very fact that she printed this letter says everything I need to know about her.

    My Great Uncle is 89 years old, a WWII veteran and one of the most progressive liberals you'd ever have the pleasure of meeting.

    And, I'm sorry, but using the word "son" to the POTUS is inappropriate even if you take away the race issue (I'd have to know more about the letter writer to know if it was a racist comment or just a cranky old inappropriate bastard comment.

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  32. Anonymous5:46 PM

    Yes, it was rather irresponsible for Miss Wasilla Hillbilly to support such treasoness thoughts against Obama.

    I also have a hard time believing these statements were "dictated" freely from a 93 yr old man - however, it still remains a plausible scenario. More fact-finding needs to be done in order to debunk this scenario entirely. Signed in FL, but he's located "...on the western end of Pearl Harbor."

    I was never a pro in Geography, but that doesn't add-up does it?

    As for Miss Wasilla Hillbilly, what else should we expect by now? No news there. What's needed to knock her off her inflated pedestal is the solid proof that will debunk her altered reality while simultaneously unraveling the hidden skeletons that are just starting to surface.

    One that lies three thirds and uses a known truth to pass a thousand nothings with, should be once heard and thrice beaten.” -William Shakespeare

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  33. Anonymous6:31 PM

    Gasman, thank you for another valuable and informative post. And, Curiouser, thank you for pointing out the obvious inconsistency in Mr. Estes purported letter. Lies and liars usually trip themselves up.

    From a 62-year-old woman's point of view,it is obvious that any concept of "the good ol' days" is an absolute crock.

    --my mother was twelve years old before her mother was even given the right to vote, and that was because her mother was a white female living in the north.

    When I was a young teenager and stood in front of our black and white television watching the chaos on the nightly news, I understood, at least to a young and limited degree, the plight the black population was experiencing--and my heart was with them.

    Later, I was to discover, through genealogical research, that I had many distant great grandfathers and great uncles who served in the military through the Civil War, War of 1812 and several during the Revolutionary War. And I also discovered distant relationships to various founders of earliest America. From what I have discovered about these men, they were not fighting for religious freedom, they were fighting for national sovereignty..sovereignty and freedom for its own sake.

    --my mother often made the comment that the conditions during the late 1950s through her death in 1985, were entirely different than those she witnessed in earlier times. Having been born in 1908, she realized first hand that the middle class began to live as well as, and in most instances better, than the very wealthy did when she was young. The reason? Progress.

    Progress in technology and science.

    When she was young, her parents and neighbors were still using horses and buggies. Her lifetime was lived between the first flight of the Wright Brothers and a few years beyond landing on the moon.

    When my mother was young:
    ..homes had no furnaces, central heating or air conditioning (and this was, often, still the case when I was young).
    ..there was no indoor running water. Water was carried in and heated on the wood to wash dishes or take baths...and the first six years of my life, there was only cold running water inside our house...and no indoor bathroom facility.
    ..children often died of measles, pneumonia, etc. In fact, one of her own brothers died in infancy from an intestinal infection. I was six years old before polio vaccine was available in the town where I lived.

    During WWII, many women went to work in factories, my mother included. It was the first time that women could actually earn a reasonable income.

    My point is, this nation did not reach the comforts we experience on a daily basis because of "old time religion." Any comforts that we experience are a clear result of the attention to scientific and technological progress. Had it been left up to Bible reading and churches, we would still be spending a great deal of time shoveling horse manure from America's main streets--and running to the outhouse in the dead of winter.

    I had uncles who served during WWII. In fact, one of my uncles was at Pearl Harbour and came out unscathed. He survived and grew old. He had access to the GI Bill and went on to build a successful business in southern California. His sister, my mother, and many women like her, after the war, were forced back into their homes--to mop, wash, iron, cook and raise children.

    Perhaps the women of the "greatest generation" were only allowed that greatness for a moment in time. And, if Sarah and her holier than thou, anti-science supporters, are given their way, our daughters will be sent back to their washing, ironing and passel of kids to raise.

    That wonderful American experience that they glorify and long for never existed, except in their uninformed and foolish minds and hearts.

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  34. Anonymous6:44 PM

    It sounds more like the kind of hooey that comes from an angry Sarah Palin. (With the help of a "ghostwriter" so there are actual sentences, also.)

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  35. Checked Harold Estes on Intelius.com and he is listed as 94 years old, living in Hawaii. However, this site is not reliable. My father was listed on this site as living until he reach 100 years old. Sadly, he died when he was 71.
    Mrs. TB mentioned her MIL dictating letters to her caregiver. Could the caregiver have written this letter and had Mr.Estes signed it?
    If the lettter was written in Hawaii, why was it addressed McAlpin, Florida. It doesn't matter if it were mailed there, the man's address is in Hawaii.Mr.Estes may be alive but the letter smells fishy.
    As for SP, its so damn easy to write on a facebook page about solving the country and the world's problems.Its also easy to offer advice to our President. If she had a quarter of an ounce of intelligence in that empty vessel below her bumpit, she wouldn't be so cavalier. We live in a global environment. The problems facing President Obama are beyond complex. Her phoney self serving platitudes and simplistic approaches to solving major problems are making me sick. Yet, this is what her followers want to hear. Well, listen to this, If the problems facing us were that simple to solve, it would have happened and we would not have needed her two cents. Yes, she has hit a new low using this letter but what did we expect? She will do anything for celebrity. Lies mean nothing to her if she sees her name in the headlines.

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  36. Anonymous6:57 PM

    "There is a reason that we have a civilian government in control of the military. Soldiers may know how to win battles, but they do not know how to conduct wars."

    SON, that is the among the most assnine comments I have ever read and if it doesn't turn the lights on in a few of your loyal readers nothing will.

    Let's look at the facts:

    Presidents who had served in the military: George Washington - Commander in Chief of Continental Army during the American Revolution. James Monroe - served in American Revolution
    Andrew Jackson - American Revolution, War of 1812, First Seminole War
    William Henry Harrison - Indian wars in the NW territory, War of 1812
    John Tyler - War of 1812 Zachary Taylor - War of 1812, Black Hawk, Second Seminole, and Mexican wars Franklin Pierce - Mexican War
    James Buchanan - War of 1812 Abraham Lincoln - Black Hawk War
    Andrew Johnson - Civil War Ulysses Grant - Mexican War, Civil War
    Rutherford Hayes - Civil War James Garfield - Civil War
    Chester Arthur - Civil War Benjamin Harrison - Civil War
    William McKinley - Civil War Theodore Roosevelt - Spanish-American War Harry Truman - WWI Dwight Eisenhower - WWII General
    John Kennedy - WWII Lyndon Johnson - WWII Richard Nixon - WWII
    Gerald Ford - WWII George Bush - WWII

    Presidents who were in the military but who saw no action:

    James Madison, James Polk, Millard Fillmore, Jimmy Carter, Ronald Reagan - kept out of combat due to bad eyesight, Bush 41 and Bush 44.

    Presidents with no military experience

    John Adams--did not preside over war during presidency
    Thomas Jefferson--did not preside over war during presidency
    John Quincy Adams--did not preside over war during presidency
    Martin Van Buren--did not preside over war during presidency
    Grover Cleveland--did not preside over war during presidency
    William Taft--did not preside over war during presidency
    Woodrow Wilson--did not preside over war during presidency
    Warren Harding--did not preside over war during presidency
    Calvin Coolidge--did not preside over war during presidency
    Herbert Hoover--did not preside over war during presidency
    Franklin Roosevelt--medical ineligibility; Served as Assistant Secretary of the Navy from 1913 and through World War I;
    Bill Clinton, deferment Bosnia conflict
    Barack Obama--deferment, Iraq, Afghanistan.

    Do you will start wish to argue your mindboggling premise that "civilians" bring more to the table during war time than those that served?

    That's rhetorical: of course you do. If this blog has proven anything it's that ignorance is considered a virtue.

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  37. Anonymous7:13 PM

    @6:57 - "Son," you have just sunk your own argument. Look at the list you presented. There are such atrocities on the first list--complete slaughters of native Americans--100 years worth, including Lincoln in the Black Hawk wars. And you think that's good?

    And what Bush 44 did in Iraq and Afghanistan you don't even list. Pls. don't post here anymore; you are a propagandist without interest in facts.

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  38. Anonymous 6:57, thanks for the long and informative post. However I think you missed my point.

    It was NOT that Presidents with military experience are not better able to win a war, though that may not be entirely true, it was that soldiers engaged in battle do not have the information at their disposal necessary to CONDUCT a war.

    Generals always want more troops, and more time, but that may not be a possibility. Which is something the civilian leadership may be painfully aware of, and are taking into consideration as they determine the best course of action.

    Simply giving a "battle-hardened field General" what he wants is certainly not a guarantee of victory. Something perhaps better understood by those tracking both the lack of resources as well as the mood of the country. Without the means, and the support, there will be no victory.

    Perhaps Sun Tzu said it best in the "Art of War": When the higher officers are angry and insubordinate, and on meeting the enemy give battle on their own account from a feeling of resentment, before the commander-in-chief can tell whether or not he is in a position to fight, the result is RUIN.

    So I meant no offense toward the military, or military service, I was just making a statement that has been made by others much more experienced than I.

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  39. Anonymous8:13 PM

    Obama did not have a deferment.

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  40. This dumda$$ says President Obama got a deferment. Apparently this historian doesn't know that the draft ended in 1973 and people don't get deferments in a volunteer army.

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  41. Anonymous9:51 PM

    @6:57 - There is no Bush 44.

    He was Bush 43. You never get any facts right.

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  42. Anonymous10:01 PM

    Snopes have NOT confirmed the letter, they have taken the word of a man who publishes the magazine Fore & Aft. Harold B. Estes appeared in that magazine 5 years ago.

    There is no proof until they interview the man himself. That magazine is Wingnut Porn.

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  43. justafarmer10:08 PM

    anon at 6:57
    WTH are you talking about Clinton & Obama having deferments?
    The draft ended in 1973.

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  44. justafarmer10:16 PM

    laffing that anon @6:57 gets both the Bushes messed up!

    George Bush WWII, but then Presidents who were in the military but saw no military action: Bush 41 and Bush 44.

    bwahahaaaaa!!!!

    "Bush 44" (anon's non de plume) not only didn't see military action but never even showed up for training!

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  45. Anonymous10:24 PM

    Harold Barton Estes has a 30 year-old relative named Zion. This gets fishier as time goes on.

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  46. Anonymous10:39 PM

    Gryphen,

    I have a gift for you.

    Zion Estes is behind the following website.

    http://www.amaraka.tv/home/node/12

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KdtcIP11MO0

    ReplyDelete
  47. Anonymous11:50 PM

    Gryphen,

    Here's some more for you.

    https://jimspss1.courts.state.hi.us/court/ck_public_qry_cpty.cp_personcase_srch_details?backto=P&soundex_ind=&partial_ind=&last_name=Estes&first_name=Harold&middle_name=&begin_date=&end_date=&case_type=ALL&id_code=&PageNo=1

    It appears old Harold is an unrepentant drunk driver with multiple DUI's and 27 traffic offenses since 1996, many of them blatant.

    He chooses to defend himself in jury trials...attention seeker....nutcase alert....

    ReplyDelete
  48. Anonymous11:55 PM

    Harold doesn't like paying his taxes either.

    http://132.160.239.151/boc/showit.php?DocNo=R2007137103

    ReplyDelete
  49. Anonymous12:03 AM

    I don't know who put the letter on congress.org (I'd say it was Senator George Lemieux (R) Florida) so I sent a email to all three names linked to the letter saying that whoever put the letter online is a idiot and that the author was clearly racist.

    OT My family always hog all of the K's and Q's in scrabble also. What there is only one K and one Q in scrabble? Can't be Hasbro lies!!! Darn it family board games are gotcha too!

    ReplyDelete
  50. Anonymous12:17 AM

    Here's a Thansgiving 2007 photo of Harold and Doris

    http://picasaweb.google.com/WaikikiBaptist/Thanksgiving2007#5136475670330193250

    ReplyDelete
  51. mommom12:27 AM

    So really what you are saying is that Presidents with a military background are more likely to be warmongers and more likely to get us into a war and to keep us there as long as possible.

    ReplyDelete
  52. Palin has hidden behind her Facebook Page and twitter since she bailed on the people in Alaska......quit.........as governor back in July.

    Nothing but carefully orchestrated interviews with Oprah and Barbra Walters.

    Of course she'll go on FOX because they only ask the questions she likes, but even at THAT Palin confused Iraq with Iran on Sean Hannity's program.

    Not that he corrected her on it, that would be "gotcha" media..........to point out a fact.

    Now Sarah Palin hides behind a ..............95 year old man!!

    And Palin chose the most controversial and demeaning part of his very lengthy letter, referring to Obama as "son", as in "boy".

    The letter goes on with more racist remarks......"I don't think you like America nor do I see an ounce of gratefulness in anything you do for the obvious gifts this country has given you. ... Shape up and start acting like an American. ...

    Translated:

    Of course because Obama is an African American he would resent his country, not appreciate being the first black president ..........and because he has a Muslim name he obviously is not "acting like an American"


    I can see an 95 year old southern racist clinging to these views, I could even ignore him.

    But Palin endorses these views as she hides behind him, because SHE didn't say these things.

    This is not even sophomoric, this is what kids in middle school pull..."I didn't say it HE did".

    Sarah Palin is a childish, racist, coward.

    ReplyDelete
  53. To Anon 5:14

    Thank you for reminding people that the "good old days" are actually not as great a people remember. There is an expression in Italian that roughly translates as "we always laugh at last year's troubles" I am so sick of people reminising about how much better things were, it wasn't. I used to work for a living history museum and as much as it's fun to "live historically" for a day or two, I would not go back to that time for anything---diseases, harsh living conditions, domestic abuses including blatently beating children (not dicipline, this was beating), most people living hand to mouth without labor laws, Spring was called "the dark times" because you were pretty much out of stored food by then and had to starve a little until the new crops started coming in, etc. Read historic diaries, life was tough then----Even now life is still not for sissies, it still is tough at times but it can be sweet, Every generation will face challenges and we must look forward. In my book EVERY generation is great.

    ReplyDelete
  54. Gasman11:41 PM

    Anon @6:57,
    Did you do any research before posting?

    Under your heading “Presidents who were in the military but who saw no action” you include George H. W. Bush. If you actually read any history you’d know that President Bush was a torpedo bomber pilot in WW II and was shot down in combat. He was awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross and three Air Medals. For a full account of President Bush 41’s military record, see his Wikipedia entry:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_H._W._Bush

    You also neglected Abraham Lincoln, who technically did serve in the military, albeit VERY briefly. He saw no combat and his service in the Black Hawk War was so inconsequential that he later joked about it. It could charitably be overlooked. Even with virtually no military experience he turned out to be possibly our very best wartime Commander In Chief. Doesn’t exactly buttress your contention.

    You also failed to mention President James Garfield. True, his presidency was so brief, it would be pure speculation when considering him as Commander In Chief. However, his military service should have been impossible to overlook as he attained the rank of Major General. He fought in the Civil War with distinction at Shiloh, Corinth, and Chickamauga.

    As to your comments about “deferments” for Presidents Clinton and Obama, you are full of shit.

    These were glaring omissions and deficiencies in your argument that I spotted without any research. If I dug a little bit, I’m sure that I could punch even more holes in your pissy little screed.

    Before waxing snotty about how anyone on this site “has proven...that ignorance is considered a virtue,” you would be well advised to check your own ignorance at the door.

    ReplyDelete
  55. Gasman11:50 PM

    Anon @ 6:57,
    I will offer a qualified apology to you. I did not see Garfield in your list until after posting. I erred in accusing you of neglecting Garfield in your list.

    As to the rest of my post, it still stands. LIncoln saw no action and Bush the Greater saw plenty. You got both of those dead wrong.

    You are also still an ass.

    ReplyDelete
  56. Anonymous6:26 PM

    GET THE RECORD STRAIGHT!!

    Regarding 95 YR OLD Harold B. Estes I,
    he is my EX-father-in-law...he is real and alive where he said he was....

    Zion is his GRANDSON...and anything negative on record such as tickets, dui's, not paying taxes....belongs to his DEAD SON - Harold Barton Estes II (WHOM HE NEVER SAW EYE TO EYE WITH)....He was killed in July of 2001....

    I did not read the letter you are all talking about but I know him and it is REAL!!

    If he said son, well, that's what old people say about anyone younger than them to COMMAND RESPECT!!!

    ReplyDelete

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