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I have tried very hard to support President Obama's decisions since he took office. Sometimes it has been difficult. Perhaps the most difficult decision to support of them all was his decision to send 30,000 more troops into Afghanistan.
I believe this war is unnecessary, unwinnable, and will ultimately end in disaster. I realize that President Obama is in a very ticklish position. Leaving Afghanistan in the state that it is in right now will have a huge backlash on America, just like pulling out of Vietnam did.
However, there is simply no way to rectify the problems in this country if the military is uncooperative, the political leaders are illegitimate, and the people believe the American forces are invaders.
As we have seen with the "underwear bomber" potential terrorists come from all walks of life, they do not need a base of operation to continue to terrorize the world, but they do need a reason to justify their hate, and the war in Afghanistan provides that.
The main terror base seems to be London.
ReplyDeleteAttacking any country is pointless if you are trying to reduce terror.
You know, I am going to just have to express this - Richard Engel is just so freaking HOT! OK, got that out of my system. When are we going to learn we can't stop terrorism by invading the terrorists' home countries? The situation with Yemen is going to be interesting. Already the war-mongering neo-cons like Holy Joe are calling for war in Yemen. I would say we can't start a 3rd war without re-instating the draft - we should start with their sons and daughters.
ReplyDeleteGreat work here Gryphen, I thoroughly enjoy your posts, Especially when Uncle Gryphen tells us a scary bedtime story!
Richard Engel is an amazing journalist - he does not make s*it up, his stories are clear, concise and he obtains access to information through documentation.
ReplyDeleteThe War in Afghanistan is a total disaster. Although I detest Patreus, his request for TRUTH in information instead of "happy talk" produced the report that Richard had obtained.
We cannot win as long as we have an army occupying a country especially a tribal conglomeration such as Afghanistan. We are seen as invaders.
We changed our focus and went after Iraq and Saddam Hussein. The mullahs in Afghanistan are all tribal leaders and the Taliban is now back in full force. No I don't agree with their policies, but this is a 7th century country and OUR methods of governing do not work.
The report was STUNNING - we need to get our troops out NOW. This is not going to work - ever! The fact that the Pentagon knows all of this is proof that we are on a wrong path and placing our soldiers in harms way and we will not achieve anything resembling victory.
You cannot win someone's heart and mind by killing them.
Actually, Gryphen, the terrorists don't come from all walks of life.
ReplyDeleteWas anyone surprised to find out that this guy was from a well-off family & had gone to school in the west? Next we'll find out that he was radicalized in a British mosque. I also wasn't surprised to find out that our good friends the Saudis played in this (the Al Quaeda (sic) cell's bomb maker is alleged to be Saudi).
Meanwhile when I flew home from the UP of MI to Alabama the other day I got to see TSA thoroughly paw through my suitcase, wipe it down and test for explosives. Hello, HLS/TSA, anyone home? Since you haven't noticed, might I point out that it hasn't been American Lutherans of nordic decent who've been blowing up planes.
Let's not kid ourselves:
ReplyDeleteWe are in the hands of an overwhelming military/industrial complex, and no president can withstand their pressures. GWB was a willing participant, but I firmly believe that this president, while of an apparently completely different mind set, will at best be able to slow down the ambitions of those who really rule this country.
It seems that the majority of this nation truly believes that this one elected person has all the power. Not so. Nothing will change, and if the president were to push too hard, my guess is that some accident would befall him.
May I be proven wrong.
Maybe we should be over there trying to rebuild their infrastructure and helping them develop their agriculture (not poppies) and natural resources...not overwelming them with occupying troops, bribing their govt. officials and warlords, or handing out bibles. The utter stupidity of our foreign policy over the last two decades is absolutely bind boggling.
ReplyDeleteIt's easy to be an armchair commander from the comfort of your home. Obama brought together many different voices - military and otherwise - to come to a decision. I give him a lot of credit for thinking it through before making the call. The previous administration left quite a mess to figure out and I believe that Obama made the best decision in a bad situation.
ReplyDeleteI can't seem to get the video to work and I missed Rachel last night.
ReplyDeleteSo, without the benefit of such information, FWIW, at first I was against sending in more troops. But, like Vietnam, I don't think we should just pack up and leave. I remember seeing on teevee a woman kneeling in an arena, completely covered in blue (I don't remember the name of that garment). And one of those Taliban men walked over and shot her in the back of the head. Her sin was nothing deserving such a death sentence. And I remember those young girls having acid thrown in their faces while on their way to school. So, the Taliban should not be allowed to become a stronghold anywhere. Yet, the Taliban has received US dollars as bribes to them to keep them from destroying new construction in Afghanistan.
I watched President Obama's speech the day he ordered those 30,000 troops. He made a point that the leader of that country was legitimate according to the Afghanistan constitution. And I remember him talking about training Afghanistan soldiers and helping in the area of agricultural, too. He explained his decision and described a three-fold plan; I was impressed with our President. So, I stand behind President Obama's decision. There are currently 190,000 Afghanistan men being trained. I pray for their success and the safety of all our troops.
Bush should be indicted and tried as a war criminal.
No Gryphen, the US can't leave Afghanistan but at least understand this: The reason it can't leave is not because Al Queda will regroup or some lame reason such as that. The real reason is because the US must maintain control and further assert it's control over the ME. And the reason for that is that America must maintain control over the price of oil. Your country can be bankrupted by higher oil prices and if you people would just think about it, that is the main reason for the economic recession that hit the US.
ReplyDeleteAnd so, Obama needs to play a balancing act for the immediate future. Your country has to establish more sources of oil other than ME oil and it needs to reduce consumption from the current 20+ million barrels a day. Otherwise the US must stay in the ME and that is what is causing the problems with terrorism. Of course, there is no question that terrorism would cease almost immediately if the US pulled it's troops off the Arabian peninsula.
There is the reason why Obama is stuck between a rock and a hard place, and it's also the reason why Bush2 and his father before him started the war against Iraq. Don't forget, the gulf war was as phony as the later war against Iraq, even though Bush1 sold the war much better to other countries. Can you and some of your people at least get that much straight please?
The US is the greatest exporter of violence in the world and has been for about one hundred years.
ReplyDeleteHarry Reasoner in one of his last special comments on the 5:00 news, at the time of the bicentinnial, pointed out - that in our 200 year history, we had fought 208 wars. Only two were legally declared.
What he did not add is that virtually none of them were caused by an invasion or threat of invasion of this country.
In the wake of most of these wars we leave destruction, civilian death, a corrupt puppet government and economic chaos.
Reagan had an opportunity to change America's approach to war making when the Berlin Wall fell. He failed.
Obama needs to change our approach to the muslim/Arab world.
There are 1.5B mulsims. If we fight them we can only loose - everything,
our souls, economy, decency, morality, leadership, respect...
Guess what folks - the US did invade Afghanistan. It happened during the Bush administration. As invaders, the US was making progress against the Taliban until the Bush administration decided to invade Iraq. In the past six or seven years, the Taliban has had ample opportunity to regroup. All that the current administration is trying to do is get out as gracefully as possible. I really think it is time that all of the so called progressives or liberals actually stood up for President Obama rather then trashing every single thing he does. The republicans are doing a great job of that with our your help.
ReplyDeleteI saw this on Rachel last night and it brought back something I remember reading last year just before the election. Someone on either Talking Points or Daily Kos made a comment something to the effect that holy crap this young man is going to have to clean up all Bush's disasters, specifically the economy and the wars in Iran and Afghanistan.
ReplyDeleteI do not think this is winnable for us anymore than it was the Russians in the 80's. The vast, rugged terrain in Afghanistan alone makes it almost impossible, and then you throw in the Taliban, the illiteracy in the country, and the corrupt government; the impossibilities just keep multiplying. I have to agree with Basheert, you do not win peoples hearts and minds by killing them. Like you Gryphen, I want to support President Obama but this in this instance it is hard. I guess the only consolation, which I realize is not much, is at least I believe he truly wants to do the best thing, the right and moral thing, whereas all Bush and Cheney wanted was the "glory of winning".
thestraightgoods: I do disagree with you. Afghanistan has NO oil - even if it did have oil, the topography of the country is stunning and absolutely impenetrable. The actual drilling of oil in a country like this would cost gazillions even if they had oil.
ReplyDeleteMuch of Afghanistan is isolated and many villages are cut off. There is no local police and many villagers never ever even leave their villages. They HATE us - as we sit on top of hills surrounding their remote villages and lob RPG's at the Taliban. We have bombed the Flintstones back even further.
The problem is - the US never ever took the time to consider their culture and the difficulty to gain favoritism with people who live in the 6th century and who's entire life is spent in a 2 block area scrabbing for their next meal.
Of course the Taliban is awful - so is Kim Jong-il (No Korea) ... so are many others.
WE ARE NOT THE WORLD POLICE. We have NO right attempting to tell any country how they should do things. We cannot fix everything and we frequently barge in like bulls in a china shop and break everything and kill everyone first. We are aggressive and we are CHRISTIAN - we have brought in a huge contingent of largely Christian battle soldiers with huge weapons and we are occupying a Muslim Country.
No it isn't right - the Taliban isn't right but neither are we. You cannot BOMB people into your way of thinking.
JMHO.
Oh Grphen....like you, I think this war is not to be won..in any way shape or form. Your countrymen, as well as mine and some others are losing our precious men and women, and we are spending billions...for what?
ReplyDeleteWe are seen as occupiers, and the Canadian psyche has a very difficult time with this. We preferred our peace keeping reputation, even when some in the world make fun of us for it. It's just the Canadian nature I suppose.
I am so afraid of what is coming down the pipe. What kind of world did we bring our children into? My son and his wife are not having kids for this very reason. He is too much like his mother....reading news papers and watching news I guess.
So they see us as invaders. Imagine that. It was never about winning their hearts and minds. That idea was for American consumption.
ReplyDeleteImagine the tables are turned, and some huge, far more wealthy country than us decided to rescue us from our current corrupted democracy by dismantling our government for us, but which unfortunately requires a bit of bombing on American soil, with a couple of hundred thousand unfortunate civilian casualties.
We might consider them invaders. Imagine that.
onething: Your post rates a 10 out of ten.
ReplyDeleteWe would NEVER stand for an invasion by another country - we would be outraged and we would rise up and defeat them.
For some reason, the DC Beltway loses all reason and thought when they get into office. We have allowed the Pentagon and WH corruption to run amok for the last 8 years.
An invasion is just that - we would not stand for it, but we do it to anyone we disagree with.
Enough is enough. The Pentagon is simply after money like all govt agencies. Our children are fodder for the military industrial grinding machine. We lost 8 Americans in Afghanistan today.
WHY?
We are not going to win this war - no way. There is NO military solution. We always try to kill everyone who disagrees with us.
I am assuming you all have seen Richard Engel's production "Tip of the Sword"? It is amazing - and shows just how hated we are in small villages. We are accomplishing nothing but filling the pockets of the corrupt military.
funny no one thinks this is another government boondoggle and bureaucrats will screw it up ie army
ReplyDeleteno one hates the army for NOT winning but its run like the post office
military is more incompetent that every other government program combined
I suspect that Obama realizes that we've already lost the war in Afghanistan. I think he is trying to work out an exit strategy and not make us look like idiots (too late. The world already recognizes that we were run by incompetent idiots who started 2 wars without any clue as to how to end them). We invaded Afghanistan originally because Osama bin Laden was in Afghanistan, and while the Taliban were willing to surrender him to us, they required us to commit to not executing him. Bush wouldn't hear of this, so the Taliban said their religion would not allow them to release a guest to be killed, so we invaded.
ReplyDeleteBin Laden is no longer in Afghanistan, if indeed he is still alive. Therefore we have no reason to be there. We did not invade them because we didn't like the Taliban- although we didn't; or because we don't like the way they treat women (which is problematic), we invaded because Bush was convinced that he had to look like a swaggering asshole to achieve anything during his presidency.
We never had any valid reason to invade and occupy Iraq, which had nothing to do with the 9/11 attack or any capability of harming the U.S. Both Presidents Bush needed to step into the bathroom with a tape measure and sort it out for themselves; that would have addressed the issue quickly and with less collateral damage.
Ivyfree
In regard to the title of the article.
ReplyDeleteYou don't mean that our government would lie to us about how an illegal war is going, do you?
Snark! Snark! Everybody back in the leaky boat and bail like crazy.
Hate to say it but even Bush was smart enough to minimize any Afghan involvement.
ReplyDeleteObama needs to do a quick 180 on a lot of things or it will be an electoral rout in 2010 and 2012.
End war in Afghanistan.
Stop the bailouts!!! Another 3.8 Billion today for GMAC and unlimited amounts for Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.
Veto the corporate welfare HCR bill.
Richard Engel is to be commended for speaking truthfully about the situation in Afghanistan. For at least 8 years what has passed as journalism was little more than sycophancy under misguided notions of patriotism. In the some cases our MSM talking heads seemed to be just as ethnically/religiously bigoted, jingoistic, and xenophobic as Cheney and Bush. When this is all over, Engel can hold his head high as he says “I told you so.”
ReplyDeleteWe arrived at the present state of affairs in Afghanistan due to imbecilic and naive "leadership" - and I use that term charitably - by Cheney/Bush. These buffoons had not the slightest idea of what we needed to do in Afghanistan. Nor did they care to learn. They longed for war with Saddam Hussein and were uninterested in anything that distracted them from their grand war in Iraq. Because of their lack of a coherent plan in Afghanistan, we have done little more than tread water there for the last 8 years. To the Afghans, It does not matter that Obama is not responsible for the present situation, but it does matter that we have accomplished little or nothing in our time there.
I hope that President Obama has the sense to know that our mere presence is making the situation demonstrably worse and that he has the courage to realize that we will never achieve anything even remotely resembling our notions of victory à la WW II. It is hubris to think that our fortunes in Afghanistan will be any different from those who sought to conquer and occupy Afghanistan, from the Soviets all the way back to Alexander the Great.
For what are our soldiers dying? To what great accomplishment do we point to and tell the orphans, widows, and grieving families, “that is why your loved one died.” No, we need to bring our soldiers home and deal with the fallout of what our presence in Afghanistan has meant and what the consequences will be when we exit. Staying means we will be treading water a bit longer. We need to let go of this tiger’s tail and get the hell out while we can.
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteThe main terror base seems to be London.
Attacking any country is pointless if you are trying to reduce terror.
6:14 AM
Of note, I think that the U.K. has one of the most surveilled populations in the free world??
We ARE invaders and occupiers in Afghanistan. Alexander the Great, Great Britain, and the USSR was broken in Afghanistan. Is the beltway incapable of learning?
Gryphen, you state that there was a backlash when the US pulled out of Vietnam. I don't remember any such backlash. And if in fact there was one, I am sure it was only because of how deep the US got themselves into it in the first place. Vietnam was supposed to be the foothold for the spread of Communism throughout the world. Guess what, the US did not win in Vietnam. Think of all the needless bloodshed and the waste of young American Lives.
ReplyDeleteEight years into Afghanistan and I have yet to even hear of an objective for being there, other than to get the people responsible for 9/11. That has not been spoken of for years now, in fact it is all but for certain, those people responsible for 9/11 are probably no longer in Afghanistan. So, if you have no objective, how do you know when you achieve victory.
The US needs to look at its own form of democracy before it tries to inflict it upon others. Take for example healthcare reform; the politicians feel they have a better chance of winning re-election by appeasing the insurance companies that contribute money to them than by following the wishes of there constituents.
The missing piece of the puzzle here is that our nation is run and controlled by hidden, insider groups whose agenda is utterly different than what they present to the world.
ReplyDeletePeople like to think it is incompetence, or swaggering, that sort of thing. It's nothing of the sort. Why doesn't the media do its job, we keep asking. Well, it is because they are not allowed to.
We have almost no way of knowing the real truth of situations. I don't even take this recent silly terrorist event seriously. I doubt it was a genuine lone terrorist. Very likely it was a stage managed, fake event, designed just when needed to increase surveillance, add more rules and humiliating searches and invasions of our privacy. That is the agenda.
Gryphen, I watched the video of Obama and Michelle you posted just before Christmas. It made me sad. I thought that Obama looked wooden and Michelle looked scared. The light was gone from his eyes. My instincts tell me that Obama is a good man, but he is in way over his head, because the powers that run this world are very entrenched and there is only so much he can do. He breaks his campaign promises because he has no choice. Kennedy fought it too quickly and he died for it.
"Anonymous" above is correct. When the US pulled out of Viet Nam, there was no backlash. We were told for years that we had to stop communism in Asia or the red armies would be landing on the beaches of Santa Monica . . . bullshit.
ReplyDeleteLike Viet Nam, there is no way to "win" in Afghanistan. When we do, eventually, pull out, everyone will be better off -- especially the US troops.
The problem with Afganistan, is that we need to get the people involved in their own governance, something that's close to impossible because they never had a centralized government to begin with. It's a collection of tribal societies, with unsecured borders, with allegiances to many different leaders.
ReplyDeleteThe recent suicide bombing shows what happens when we trust the wrong people to come onto our bases to be trained.
I understand why Obama put a time limit, but this is a lose/lose situation that we started eight years ago, after fighing Bush's unjust Iraq War.
Anonymous said...
ReplyDelete"It's easy to be an armchair commander from the comfort of your home..." Someone else talked about how we are defending their people from their own atrocities. Someone else said, they don't have any oil.
I'd like to say, all of us interested people are not being armchair commanders which is a completely outdated phrase in this age of information. We see what is happening. We know that the terrorists are not attacking every christian country. The question to be asked is why not.
We see the U.S. is not invading India even though it has an atrocious CASTE system or Saudi Arabia a Monarchy which still beheads people and women are second class citizens or what did the U.S. do during African genocides, but stand idly by and provide lip service.
The U.S. benefits by being in Afghanistan ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans-Afghanistan_Pipeline ) not only from the pipeline but also from the poppy production which has increased by more than 40 fold since the u.s. invaded.
Please do some research people and don't just listen to the MSM.
@onething
ReplyDeleteYour post made me sad. You know why? Because I saw the same thing you did. What a disgusting place this world is sometimes.
The US gets this absolute gem of a president, and it will be wasted. All for the good of a few with privilege. It makes me sick to my stomach. People like the ones who make up the "family" etc don't care one bit about their fellow americans. It's all about how to line their pockets at your expense, and your safety.