Friday, November 12, 2010

Rachel Maddow interviews Jon Stewart which should fill me with happiness, but which ended up leaving me wearing my sad face. Update.

It is not hyperbole on my part to say that my two MOST FAVORITE television personalities, both on and off cable, are Jon Stewart and Rachel Maddow. So much so that when there was a screw up and I was left without Comedy Central Tuesday night I became very upset and kind of took it out on the cable representative after they told me that they could not do anything about it until 7:30 the next morning when business hours resumed. (By the way if you are that technician I want to apologize to you for my harsh language.  I am sure that nobody actually had to tie a porkchop around your neck to get the dog to play with you and that your parents were indeed married when you were born.)

So of course the very idea of Rachel interviewing Jon kind of made my nipples stand up and say "Howdy."

However after watching the interview I, and my nipples, are feeling very.......confused and unsatisfied.  How could this be?

Here is the first segment where Rachel tries to get Jon to clarify what he was trying to say during the "Rally to Restore Sanity."

Umm does anybody else feel that Jon just ran over Santa Claus with his car?

Part Two. Okay in this portions I am able to see what Stewart is saying but my defenses keep going up everytime he seems to portray Fox News and MSNBC as two sides of the same coin. I understand his point about raising the decibel level but I also know that when somebody is addressing the crowd with a bullhorn and telling them to riot while you are whispering for the crowd to stay calm, that the bullhorn is going to have a much greater impact. In other words what choice did MSNBC have if they wanted to be heard over the cacophony issuing forth from Fox?

Now for this third portion I am going to embed the video. I want to make sure everybody sees it for themselves because watching Jon Stewart serve as an apologist for George W. Bush makes me feel like I am losing my grip on sanity.



There is NO way to excuse what Bush did.  He DID in fact engage in war crimes.  He DID destroy the economy through insane policies.  He DID purposefully lie to Americans to start war unnecessarily and sent thousands of soldiers to their death for NO GOOD REASON!  He DID allow torture to be used on enemy combatants even though it is against our laws and has seriously damaged our credibility throughout the world.
Those are facts. And until today I believed that Jon Stewart knew that at least as well as I did.

Here is part four, in which Jon seems to walk back the idea that he should be considered a credible source of information on par with actual news programs.

In this last part Stewart tries to define the line between what he does and what people like Rachel do.

I have no idea how many of these any of you are willing to sit through, and of course you probably did not visit my blog to sit and watch an entire Rachel Maddow show.  But I thought there was something very informative and, in many ways, important about this interview.

So for those of you without the time, the inclination, or the high speed internet connection to watch these videos let me see if  I can sum up what it feels to me Jon Stewart is trying to say.

In my opinion Stewart has begun to feel that certain people want him to be a leader, when all he wants to be is the court jester.  In order for him to do his job, he HAS to stay somewhat neutral but people are demanding that he pick a side and ONLY make jokes at the expense of the OTHER side. When he pokes fun at the liberals some of his fans clearly feel a sense of betrayal.

That makes Stewart feel like he is boxed in and essentially takes away half of his material.  Those of us old enough to remember Johnny Carson know full well that he glibly made jokes at the expense of BOTH Republican and Democratic Presidents. In fact nobody really knew what Carson's politics were until after he left the Tonight Show.

Jon Stewart let the cat out of the bag concerning his political point of view a long time ago and now feels that it has caused people to have unrealistic expectations about who he is and what he should do with his show.

I get that.  But after all of those years of Stewart applying comedic comfort to my badly damaged psyche during the terrible, and painful eight years of the George Bush administration I am not sure I can just accept the idea of him going back to being JUST a comedian.  There were times when his ability to find the humor in the most horrible situations helped me to hang onto my sanity when I seriously was not sure I could do it anymore.  Later on Keith Olbermann did much the same thing for me, but at first it was all Stewart, and thank God he was there.

I am not at all convinced that after becoming a culture hero to millions of Americans that Stewart can go back to simply being the court jester, but it IS his life,  and if that is what he wants to do I guess we will just have to accept it.

Update:  Here is the entire uncut interview on The Maddow Blog.

Commenter's were right in suggesting that seeing it in its uncut version does change the perspective to some degree.  I am still left feeling a little abandoned, but perhaps I feel a smidgen less sad.

52 comments:

  1. MC30312:51 AM

    I haven't watched it yet (had a conference call to take) but your dismay seems to echo that of others who have seen it. I know Jon wasn't feeling well so may not have been as sharp as usual on it, though.

    I don't like when he makes fun of Dems but I'm glad he does, actually, because it helps keep him to what he does best - skewering hypocrisy in all its forms. He definitely has had and will continue to have a role to play in how things evolve but he's just a part of a larger picture (and just one man).

    Things are just sucktastic all over, Gryph. They just are.

    I feel ya.

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  2. Anonymous3:10 AM

    You are not alone. Reading the comments on Rachel's blog just after the interview and trying to post my own (and failing due to a glitch), I think a sizeable majority of viewers felt the same.

    I love both Rachel and Jon and each has a unique gift in translating complex issues into digestible bites that people can relate to, and those are crucial gifts in these contentious times.
    However, I feel that Jon has lost his edge. Perhaps he has become too rich and too comfortable for too long. Perhaps it is just that it is easier to create comedy from situations and people who are radically different from your own perspective, and now that we have a mostly progressive President he is feeling it more difficult to get the easy laughs that came so naturally when Bush was in office.
    - ks sunflower

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  3. Anonymous3:27 AM

    Gryphen, I watched Rachel's show last night too, and I came away feeling like you. I was so confused after watching the first segment, I felt like I do after listening to Sarah Palin's word salad. I kept hoping it was because Stewart wasn't feeling well, and he wasn't thinking clearly, but I don't think that was the case. I did agree with one statement he made. In reference to the rally, he said maybe they didn't make their intentions clear. BINGO. He still isn't.

    I felt very let-down and disappointed afterwards.

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  4. Anonymous3:47 AM

    I watched the whole thing last night and it was bizarre to me. It reminded me of conversations I heard many years ago...where everyone was stoned and suddenly becomes cerebral, abstract and oh so very deep yet still tries to find the funny. Then when funny is found has to try and think their way back to the conversation but it becomes, uh what? Oh yeah as I was saying...see the distinction dude. Ack

    I know Jon was ill during the interview but it still left me feeling flat. He has put himself out there more as a credible newsy person with comedic timing in the last years so maybe that accounts for the ho-hum feeling I felt during this. However, his defense of Bush and still equating left noise with Fox news/RWNJ screeching is simply bull. To see a few code pinkers freak out is in no way akin to the ugly, hate-filled messages I've seen coming from the right including their own elected officials.

    I understand about certain words being a conversation ender but that's pretty much how nearly every conversation goes with most RWingers with which I've tried to converse. Irritating to say the least.

    Regardless, 200,000+ people showed up in DC for what? You all got separated from your money at a time when IMO the time would have been better spent preparing for the upcoming election. To me it said you could give up your precious funds/time for...nothing and I, Jon/Stephen can show you how easily it can happen. Yes,lovely concerts but the cost was more than a plane ticket, etc. Whatever, I have little interest in looking at Jon as anyone I should pay attention to anymore.

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  5. jadez4:09 AM

    What you see here is not new or unexpected.
    Stewart gains lots of attention but his ego demands he also be accepted by the status quo.
    So any hint that he is way out to the left or out of the mainstream and he pushes himself right back to the middle.
    I have seen this a million times and think a bit and you will too.
    Name one person who is in the media or in the public by way of occupation that talks progressive values.
    Ever wonder why not a single black athlete for example, tiger, Michael, etc. Never speaks up concerning racism in America?
    They simply will not risk losing what that have.
    Stewart is no different.
    He wont risk being labeled a "lefty" by the mainstream.

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  6. Anonymous4:41 AM

    I totally agree, I felt it was boring and depressing and was probably Rachel's worst show. Didn't they replay the first segment after the first commercial break? I kept thinking why does Stewart need to psychoanalyze everything that is said and done on MSNBC and why handcuff this station and it's wonderful commentators any further, he should be supportive of them!

    And couldn't they have found more interesting topics to discuss and agree on? I also thought why wouldn't he want to partner more with media outlets that support his point of view, and lastly who made him God?

    After hearing about the depressing financial news all day and the ideas for cuts from the deficit panel I was looking forward to this show but then I was like, well I can't count on Obama to stand up against the Bush tax cuts and Jon Stewart is Mr. Critical?

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  7. You can still trust him, he's still funny. He didn't "defend" Bush Whack; what he's talking about is "the banality of evil" [Hannah Arendt, 50s or 60s]. That is an effect of people who have inflated notions of their own goodness committing genuinely evil acts, unaware and unreflective about the true outcome of those acts. In this way, Bush Whack can jaw-droppingly admit to authorizing water-boarding and other evil acts he committed as President.

    No one lost anything in this conversation. Both come away unbruised and smart as ever.

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  8. Anonymous4:53 AM

    I was very upset by Stewart saying Fox & MSNBC are basically the same. MSNBC stives to tell the truth and do the research needed to inform the public of the real implications of political decisions and legislations.

    Fox perpetuates false scandals, fosters fear, racism, bullying, demonstrates complete disrespect for the POTUS, and creates deep divisions among people.

    The only thing I agreed with Stewart was there should be the corrupt and noncorrupt sides of media and I feel that could be changed to truth and lies because most people want to know the truth then they can argue about their feelings of facts and not the BS they hear from corrupt Fox.

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  9. Anonymous5:11 AM

    Gryphen: "...when somebody is addressing the crowd with a bullhorn and telling them to riot while you are whispering for the crowd to stay calm, that the bullhorn is going to have a much greater impact."

    This is just the plain truth. I don't see why Jon Stewart doesn't get this, either. And Gryphen, your statement is somewhat similar to one I read on another blog, something to the effect of "when mobs are at your house threatening to burn it down, calls for civility are pretty much useless."

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  10. Anonymous5:11 AM

    Jon and Rachel are both left gatekeepers.

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  11. Anonymous5:14 AM

    Gryphen, you are spot-on! I've been bothered by Jon for a few months. Stephen Colbert has become my favorite of the two. Jon's overreaching in trying to be, what HE perceives as, fair. In so doing, he's losing many of his fans.This hasn't been a fair fight to begin with, as we're constantly bombarded (mostly by Fox itself) with ratings. Their daily reminders by every anchor on their network that they're #1, would make a novice viewer think "well, THEY must be the ones who are right, if so many people watch"....when the exact opposite is true. I love MSNBC, Keith, Rachel, Ed, and Lawrence...and Jon Stewart has ALMOST completely lost his moral compass, I'm afraid.

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  12. Anonymous5:26 AM

    I sat through the sow last night and felt a not unfamiliar feeling: life is complex and doesn't always give you what you want. Jon Stewart is one of my heros. He gives me comedic comfort and balance, helps me make (non-)sense of a crazy world. BUT last night in some ways he was the adult in the room. I followed his reasoning and accepted his position, largely because followed from what I knew of him and seemed logically consistent, had "internal integrity" if you will. Nothing surprised me. His observations and insights were those of someone who had watched closely for a very long time a passing parade of politics: good, bad, wildly funny and pathetically sad, everything in between. We got a rare glimpse at the face behind the jester mask, albeit an under-the-weather one, and what we saw was a man who didn't say what we wanted and hoped he would. I was a little let down, yes. I came away thinking that he had dialed it down, for one reason or another, his to choose. It did not diminish the hold he has on my weeknights and the support role he plays in my sanity.

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  13. Virginia Voter5:26 AM

    I think you're putting both of them on too high of a pedestal.

    I read and watch everything, from all ends of the political spectrum so I can be informed and decide for myself on the issues.

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  14. Rick Hill5:27 AM

    I do enjoy reading your blog Mr Gryph but usually without the mental imagery of your chestal regions.

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  15. . . . and, LOVE your apology to the technician. . .still laughing!

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  16. Anonymous5:41 AM

    I almost missed his central message. Jon made the very important point that what should be our overarching issue is corruption or not corruption. I realized this morning that If we pursued that issue, used it as our standard metric, the differences between Fox and MSNBC would become immediately apparent! As would the differences between Republicans and Democrats, individually and especially as an organized, entrenched party. And if we applied that litmus test to deranged grifters like Sarah Palin, it would clear those muddy waters right up. AND if the media would return to this central mission (is it the truth?) that would go a long way to fixing the broken wheel on our broken down wagon.

    I get it: it doesn't feel fair that Jon Stewart wouldn't say that Fox is so much worse than MSNBC, in their intent, organized effort, sheer number of programs in play, leadership (former head of the Republican Party, for crying out loud), articulated mission, outrageous execution, on and on. Fox is the Evil Empire, MSNBC is just Luke Skywalker and Princess Leia, with justice on their side.

    I for one appreciate Jon Stewart's sobering, clarifying message: it's the corruption.

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  17. Anonymous5:49 AM

    I agree with Omomma. Stewart has never been comfortable when he is put on a pedestal by the left. I've watched him for years and you can see him walking bk every once in awhile.

    And I think he does have a point about MSNBC. I love Rachel and Keith but they do go over the top at times. Not Rachel so much but...

    I agree that if we want the middle to listen, the left needs to get Louder and more Civil. We need to YELL the facts not belittle the right.

    When the $carah $hit starts hitting the news I don't want it to be dismissed because it is reported on lefty news stations.

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  18. GrainneKathleen6:03 AM

    i was a bit shocked at some of jon's answers in this interview and found my humble point of view nearly always in line with rachel's. maybe this comes for being a woman, or being attached to liberal causes, or being taught in art school that every decision you make down to the tooth paste you buy is a political statement. i believe jon opened pandora's box with his right-on satire, and i think he will have a hard time closing it without some respect for him being lost. he is as much pundit as comedian - most trusted newsman in america must be both a compliment and a bit of a burden for someone who wants to pretend he is just a comedian. lately he has been poking fun at the obama admin. a lot more, but i think this is in reaction to the high level of seemingly unwanted expectation that being voted most trusted newsman in america brings.
    one jaw-dropping answer he gave was that he believes that fox news is non-partisan. i sat upright abruptly and yelled "WHAT?!?!??!" i still don't understand his rationale behind this comment - just because they have lieberman on as well as token democrats doesn't make them non-partisan.
    this interview left me as perplexed as rachel seemed time after tme. the one comment he made that i heartily agree with is that he likes rachel. he didn't necessarily say that he likes her show, but he said that he liked her. i love her and her show. i would choose her show over the daily show if i could only watch one because rachel is brilliant and really talks about the important issues - yes, from a liberal viewpoint, but a fair one at that.
    colbert has always been right up there for me with stewart, and i have to admit that his satire has been ringing a bit truer lately for me. perhaps jon is having a crisis or is at a turning point in the direction of the show, but i do sense some changes going on at the daily show that i have reserved judgment about until i understand the reason and direction of them better. one development this year is that there has been a lot more criticism of obama. i don't disagree with criticizinf him at all, i just think that many of the criticisms have been unfair.
    one last observation, it was truly difficult to hear jon defend bush and the egregious abuses of power during his administration. i don't understand how he could lampoon them so effectively at the time, and yet seem ambivalent about them now.
    i still love jon and the daily show and will stick through what seems like a chage in diretion, but rachel only rose higher in my esteem during this interview for her brilliance and her graciousness. she is on my short list of personal heroes, and i truly hope her audience continues to grow because she hits the mark nearly every night as far as truth-telling goes.

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  19. Janet in Texas6:07 AM

    I tried to watch it but the minute Stewart began defending Fox news and insisting that they are NOT partisan I flipped the channel. I won't be watching him any more. He's a little too silly for my taste anyway.

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  20. Anonymous6:17 AM

    Rachel is very good at digesting and explaining policy issues, but she's not a very good interviewer. Stewart seemed like he wanted to be anywhere than there. I give it a thumbs down. I've never thought of Stewart as anything but a comedian/entertainer. I don't see why anyone expects something different or more from him.

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  21. MC30316:33 AM

    Some good points at this blog: http://brilliantatbreakfast.blogspot.com/2010/11/first-thoughts.html

    Particularly this:

    "Fox News has made politics a blood sport, in which the opposition must not just be defeated, but pummelled to death and then having its corpse ass-raped repeatedly until it falls apart under the onslaught"

    Sad but true. Check it out, Gryph. It helps put some of this in context and maybe take away your sad for a bit.

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  22. Anonymous6:45 AM

    G, I watched it all last night, with just as much shock and dismay. I have always loved Jon. Rachel was great, but Jon was the best. I am so disappointed in him and am grateful that we have a voice like Rachel's to cut through even Jon's crap.

    First, I think Jon is having an Obama moment: so many people projected their own hopes and dreams on him and his Sanity Rally and when those dreams din't coincide with reality, they began to criticize Jon. Instead of trying to carry on bravely, in the face of opposition from both the left and right as Obama does, Jon pouts and takes his toys home.

    I don't have much sympathy for Jon. He had to have known the level of emotion out there. What do they say...for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction? Well, the anger and hatred of the Tea Party is bound to have created a rising tide of justifiable disgust on the Left. Jon has talked about Obama's problems with unsatisfied hope. He had to see this coming.

    So now Jon wants to be Neutral Comedy Guy? He doesn't want to be called to leadership in a time in our history when our country, our Democracy, so desperately calls for sanity? OK fine, Jon, you are no George Washington, I guess.

    The very least Jon can do, though, is retain his principles. He gave cover to Bush's crimes by championing Bush's RATIONALIZATION (not heartfelt belief as Jon tries to excuse it) that somehow, sometime, in the distant future, Saddam Hussein might, if the stars are properly aligned and a cure for the common cold is found, consider possibly stocking up on WMDs. All I could say is Wow, Jon, way to distort. Just because calling Bush a war criminal is incendiary language, Jesus, that shouldn't stop people from speaking truth.

    At least he admitted that FOX still holds a special place in his heart for the ugly work they do. Then he spoils that trying to equate MSNBC and CNN with FOX, except that they aren't as successful. Gah! I think other media is just trying to survive WITH PRINCIPLES INTACT in a world that thrives on fear, sex, and "breaking news."

    I do love how Rachel pointedly compared the 12 Code Pink ladies to the Koch Billionaire organized machine. Yeah, a false equivalence if I ever saw one.

    Another part of the interview that left me gagging was Jon citing, as an example of Washington fraud, I think, a guy stashing cash in his freezer. Ooooooo, those Dems are downright chilling in their choice of fraud. No, Jon, the example you should have brought up was Abramoff, at the very least.

    Sorry for such a long comment, but it's better than vomitting, which is what I feel like doing these days.

    I never used to buy into the generalities some tossed about: Left good/ Right bad. However, if the last 10 years have shown me anything, it's that the Right really is really bad.

    It sucks to have clarity, that's for sure. Those Palin dumb-bots are lucky to live such deluded lives.

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  23. Anonymous6:51 AM

    part 1 of 2

    G, I watched it all last night, with just as much shock and dismay. I have always loved Jon. Rachel was great, but Jon was the best. I am so disappointed in him and am grateful that we have a voice like Rachel's to cut through even Jon's crap.

    First, I think Jon is having an Obama moment: so many people projected their own hopes and dreams on him and his Sanity Rally and when those dreams din't coincide with reality, they began to criticize Jon. Instead of trying to carry on bravely, in the face of opposition from both the left and right as Obama does, Jon pouts and takes his toys home.

    I don't have much sympathy for Jon. He had to have known the level of emotion out there. What do they say...for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction? Well, the anger and hatred of the Tea Party is bound to have created a rising tide of justifiable disgust on the Left. Jon has talked about Obama's problems with unsatisfied hope. He had to see this coming.

    So now Jon wants to be Neutral Comedy Guy? He doesn't want to be called to leadership in a time in our history when our country, our Democracy, so desperately calls for sanity? OK fine, Jon, you are no George Washington, I guess.

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  24. Anonymous6:52 AM

    part 2 of 2

    The very least Jon can do, though, is retain his principles. He gave cover to Bush's crimes by championing Bush's RATIONALIZATION (not heartfelt belief as Jon tries to excuse it) that somehow, sometime, in the distant future, Saddam Hussein might, if the stars are properly aligned and a cure for the common cold is found, consider possibly stocking up on WMDs. All I could say is Wow, Jon, way to distort. Just because calling Bush a war criminal is incendiary language, Jesus, that shouldn't stop people from speaking truth.

    At least he admitted that FOX still holds a special place in his heart for the ugly work they do. Then he spoils that by trying to equate MSNBC and CNN with FOX, except that they just aren't as successful. I think other media is just trying to survive WITH PRINCIPLES INTACT in a world that thrives on fear, sex, and "breaking news."

    I do love how Rachel pointedly compared the 12 Code Pink ladies to the Koch Billionaire organized machine. Yeah, a false equivalence if I ever saw one.

    Another part of the interview that had me gagging was Jon citing as an example of Washington fraud a guy stashing cash in his freezer. (I think that was the gist of it.) Ooooooo, those Dems are downright chilling in their choice of fraud. No, Jon, the example you should have brought up was Abramoff, at the very least.

    Sorry for such a long post, but it's better than vomitting, which is what I feel like doing these days.

    I never used to buy into the generalities that Left is good/Right is bad, but if there is anything I've learned in the last 20 years is that the Right really is bad.

    It sucks to have clarity, that's for sure. Those Palin dumb-bots are lucky to live such deluded lives.

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  25. I felt them same...pissed at Stewart.Bush should be in the Hague!


    WASHINGTON -- The American Civil Liberties Union on Thursday joined a growing chorus in the human rights community calling for a special prosecutor to investigate whether former president George W. Bush violated federal statutes prohibiting torture.

    The ACLU is urging Attorney General Eric Holder to ask Assistant U.S. Attorney John Durham to investigate Bush. For nearly three years now, Durham has been acting as a special prosecutor investigating a variety of torture-related matters involving government officials considerably lower on the food chain. Just this Tuesday, it was widely reported that Durham had cleared the CIA's former top clandestine officer and others in the destruction of agency videotapes showing waterboarding of terror suspects -- but that he would continue pursuing other aspects of his investigation.

    "The ACLU acknowledges the significance of this request, but it bears emphasis that the former President's acknowledgment that he authorized torture is absolutely without parallel in American history," the group wrote in its letter to Holder.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/11/11/calls-for-criminal-invest_n_782354.html

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  26. Anonymous6:59 AM

    I have not watched and I'm not sure I will after reading reviews. My thoughts on Stewart being a disappointment to the left are that once someone admits to being on one
    side they rightfully lose all credibility because everything they say is viewed through what side they are on.Stewart has to maintain his ability to call out the absurd wherever he sees it and he sees it in all of politics and political discussions.
    Regarding Fox/MCNBC, is it possible that Jon sees how things really are and the rest of us see what we wish it was? Just some thoughts. Keep up the great work!

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  27. Anonymous7:01 AM

    jadez. bingo!

    goes along with the results of a recent study. the more money someone makes, the less generous they are. middle class and below give a greater percentage of their net pay to their church, charity, food bank etc. They are close enough to being there that they can feel empathy.

    The further up one travels on the pay scale, the more disconnected one becomes. Consequently, (and in general) richer people tend to give money to their Alma Maters and the Arts/Museums. Necessary for a society, yes, but those charities tend to benefit the more affluent both in status and lifestyle.

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  28. Jon, the Jester. Sigh.7:04 AM

    I watched it alone; Spouse was away. I was so disheartened by it, and I thought, wait, what did he just say? What is he saying about Bush? Is Stewart defending the WMD fiasco from Bush's perspective? WHAT? Then afterwards, my parents called (in their late 70's) and expressed the same sentiment I'd felt. Except, true to form, my parents are much wiser than I and turned it off after twenty minutes.

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  29. Anonymous7:05 AM

    Thanks for the videos, Gryph, but I didn't need to watch them to know that Jon Stewart is a liberal as in "cocktail liberal" of the1960s. In other words, people who "talked the talk" but would do nothing to stop the government's murderous policies in SE Asia, or the violent reponse to dissenters at home.

    From the safety of their living rooms they watched civil rights activists and war protestors beaten up or even killed--those trying to draw attention to the vast inequality in the US and genocide in Viet Nam. The cocktail liberals did nothing but carried on business as usual, although they might invite the occasional "radical" to a 5th Ave. party

    Stewart's defense of Bush 2 clearly shows his lack of understanding of the Left, and of others who want to stop the murderous wars the US is engaged in. I was not surprised to hear him carrying water for the apologists for war, but was taken aback at his callousness toward the victims of Bush's war crimes.

    According to international law, Bush 2 committed the most serious war crime by unjustly invading Iraq. Stewart argues speciously that unless the crime is comparable to crimes tried at Nuremburg it doesn't matter--it's only a "technicality." This is barbaric and cruel logic. I wonder how Mr. Stewart would argue if it were his family killed by the bombs of a "technical" war criminal? And he is also in fact wrong--at Nuremburg the most serious crime charged was that of invading another country because from that crime "all other war crimes follow."

    I only wish more people would shout out at rallies against the killing and totruring of people by "technical" war criminals.

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  30. Anonymous7:14 AM

    I read the comments of the Jon apologists on here and I am once again reminded why Obama behaves the way he does.

    Certain Liberal types, in their zeal to be "fair" tend to bend so far back that they end up defending the indefensible.

    That's why FOX is #1 folks. Few on the Left want to stand strong in the face of evil.

    I don't care if Jon is excusing Bush on the basis of what some German political theorist wrote. The bigger point is why is he doing this? He excuses Bush and demonizes those who rightfully call Bush a war criminal.

    With this kind of tepid response to the true evil on the Right, we'd all better get used to hearing "President Palin" 24/7 on every channel.

    We get the government we deserve.

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  31. laprofesora7:27 AM

    I watched it last night and had many conflicting emotions like you did, Gryph. I will say it was good to witness two thoughtful, intelligent people have a discussion about conflicting points of view without acrimony and with humor. That alone made it worthwhile to watch. I'm still mulling over what to make of the overall discussion, but I think it's a good thing when Stewart makes fun of the left, too. It helps keep us from getting too full of ourselves like the RWNJ. And I agree with him on point: we should stop trying to demonize each other and find a way to fight the real evils in this country; if we could eve agree what they are.

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  32. emrysa7:33 AM

    yeah gryphen I didn't care for that interview very much either. I understand what he is trying to say, but there really is no balance there. while the "left" may overblow some things, it is NOTHING in comparison to what the right does. the right flat-out lies regularly to to get people freaked out - that is a big difference from the left. for stewart, and I love the man, to suggest that they are equal is waaaay off. maybe the truth is that he's tired of doing this job and wants to move on, and is looking for reasons to justify it to himself.

    yes bush and cheney are war criminals. that's a fact. as I was watching this one thing kept coming to my mind - it was a lot like clinton saying "it depends on what the definition of 'is' is." it seemed that many of stewarts points were based sort of on the same premise. didn't care for that very much. still love me some stewart, but I now look at him differently.

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  33. Anonymous7:35 AM

    6:59. Perhaps you should have stopped after "I didn't see the interview."

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  34. Anonymous7:39 AM

    Note to self. Just because Blogger warns the comment is too long, it doesn't mean that it won't be accepted.

    Sorry for the double post.

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  35. Anonymous7:40 AM

    I find reading some of the comments, views and thoughts, that of course many are to the left of course knowing where we are reading and participating. But by coming out not understanding or disagreeing with what Stewart was saying is somewhat being no different than those on the right. Like not having the ability to listen to both sides. The 'right' digs in, stands firm. The 'left' somewhat waffles, but you could say somewhat close minded too. We continue to say that we can have a conversation of right/left which the right appears not to be able to, but in truth, some 'left' can't as they see only their view as the correct view - no different than the 'right'.

    Stewart allows for the 'gray' -- setting himself in the shoes of both sides to understand -- whereas many truly only live in the black and white -- some just not recognizing it.

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  36. Knowing you to be a thinking, reasoning person, I beg you please to watch again. I have to go to work so can only hit a few of the high points for your consideration:

    Fox is not partisan: Stewart made an important distinction, saying that Fox is ideological. Though he didn't say it in the interview, their ideology could be summed up as pro-corporate, anti-government. The republicans embrace this philosophy, and so Fox embraces republicans. This is more nuanced than simply saying they are partisan, and an important message.

    Stewart is relegating himself to the jester: Yes and lucky for us. It is the jester, the satirist, who stands back and shines a light on corruption and absurdity in our leaders and politics. As Stewart explained, his team looks for a way to articulate, with humor, those thoughts that bang around our heads. That's why I love his show - so many moments of "yes, that's it."

    24 hour news networks: Stewart pointed out that his role has existed for centuries, but the 24 hour "news" is new. He explained how in many cases, too many stories are "breaking news" and all proportion is lost. He applies the same reasoning to the hyperbole applied to people. He's not saying George W isn't bad, just that he doesn't rise to the level of true evil (like say, Hitler).

    We shouldn't focus on whether Stewart makes enough distinction between Fox and Msnbc, but rather, his more important message. It is the same message he made when he first announced the rally - "Take it down a notch."

    My hope is that people who think and reason, people who don't accept on blind faith the dogma shouted at them on cable news, will take his message to heart.

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  37. Anonymous8:08 AM

    I have this recorded on my dvr and am waiting for my husband to get home tonight to watch it with him. I feel kind of the same way you do. I love Jon Stewart and his brillant depictions of the idiocy in Washington. I do however; feel a little unsettled by his latest comparisons of Fox and MSNBC.

    Keith Olbermann has been my rock for the last five years and although I will occasionally disagree with his views, I look upon him for my daily dose of sanity. Because if it wasn't for people like him and you, Gryphen, I would think I am alone in my utter disgust of the current political circus.

    I never want to take sides with Jon and Keith, but I have to say, I can live without Jon, but needs me some daily Keith. Sorry, but true.

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  38. We have always had forms of 24 hour news8:09 AM

    Jon is wrong: the 24 Hour News Cycle always existed. It was called THE TOWN CRIER, in Anglo-European cultures: "A town crier, or bellman, is an officer of the court who makes public pronouncements as required by the court Black's Law Dictionary. The crier can also be used to make public announcements in the streets. Criers often dress elaborately, by a tradition dating to the 18th century, in a red and gold robe, white breeches, black boots and a tricorne hat.

    They carry a handbell to attract people's attention, as they shout the words "Oyez, Oyez, Oyez!" before making their announcements. The word "Oyez" means "hear ye," which is a call for silence and attention. Oyez derives from the Anglo-Norman word for listen. The proclamations book in Chester from the early 19th century records this as O Yes, O Yes!"
    There were night and day bellmen.

    In native tradition, we have had other terms for the 24 hour news cycle...

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  39. Anonymous8:23 AM

    I don't understand why everyone thinks Jon Stewart has to live up to their image.

    His point is that left and right are not the issue - and it's a great point.

    His point is that name-calling is not productive and is poisoning our political discourse. Another great point.

    I think his rally was just right, and represented who he is and what he is trying to do.

    I might add that I DO believe Bush is a war criminal. But I don't think any conversation will happen when that is the first sentence. Far better to focus on the actual events and issues and investigate how and why they happened. We cannot have a discussion with conservatives about the war if we start out calling Bush a war criminal.

    I thought the interview was great.

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  40. Enjay in E MT8:29 AM

    Wow - I love your blog Gryph - and I do believe you inadvertently just validated part of what Jon Stewart was saying -ppl quit listening/and start yelling when someone says something we disagree with-

    How many comments (so far) have said -they turned him off- -won't watch again- -lost respect- or trying to rationalize why he said what he did .... not feeling well / sick / over-analyzes / lost moral compass....

    Emotional buttons are being pushed - by news / candidates / public speakers / etc. and ppl are reacting As an example- yesterday HuffPo had Palin stating Obama is the most Pro-Abortion President ever. Of course, a few thousand comments were made. How many comments if the topic had been Obama is Pro-Choice

    Both sides are being played - and nobody is listening - they are tuning out or yelling louder

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  41. Anonymous8:29 AM

    You say it yourself at the end of the post:

    "There were times when his ability to find the humor in the most horrible situations helped me to hang onto my sanity when I seriously was not sure I could do it anymore."

    That's the role we NEED him to play. We need someone finding the humor in order to preserve our sanity. That is what a comedian does. Tell him to step off that stage and 'get in the game' and he loses the ability to be that person.

    You write:

    "But after all of those years of Stewart applying comedic comfort to my badly damaged psyche during the terrible, and painful eight years of the George Bush administration I am not sure I can just accept the idea of him going back to being JUST a comedian."

    You say you are not sure he can GO BACK to being a comedian. But that's the point...he isn't going back...he's always been in this role. That is how brilliant the man is. He is a COMEDIAN. His material happens to be politics.

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  42. Anonymous8:36 AM

    And I've never forgotten that Jon Stewart jumped on the gang up on ACORN bandwagon, either. In his attempt to "blame both sides" he is just as guilty as the spineless legislators who voted to stop giving ACORN federal work. All played a role in the fact that this highly effective organization is now bankrupt.

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  43. Anonymous8:53 AM

    I agree with what someone said earlier -- Rachel, as brilliant and well prepared as she is, is not the best interviewer. Jon was weird and full of himself, and I didn't much like what he was saying or how he was saying it.

    Two of my favorite people, a big and depressing disappointment.

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  44. Anonymous9:02 AM

    Jon made valid points, but he also spewed some serious crap. He could have made his points without pandering to Bush and vilifying random leftist activists.

    It's okay to call Jon out on this. No one is "not listening" just because they disagree with Jon.

    Are some of you even thinking about what you are writing? You are accusing others of not listening just because YOU don't agree with THEIR opinions. Let's just stick to analyzing what Jon said and stop playing armchair therapist for the rest.

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  45. Anonymous9:09 AM

    In defense of the news people who didn't start the conversation with "Bush is a war criminal" and tried to start by presenting facts and reason (and there were many, in those early days)....

    They ALL got branded as unpatriotic and told to sit down and STFU.

    This isn't Year 1. We are nearing the beginning of Year 10. I think by now it's not jumping the gun to say Bush is a war criminal.

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  46. Anonymous9:16 AM

    I too was deflated. But this conversation just led to a light bulb moment in Jon's apparent defense of Bush--criticizing the left for calling him a war criminal.

    Of course he is. Yet our justice system does not work that way. So we can't or shouldn't call anyone a criminal until a jury deems them so. Obviously Bush has admitted his own guilt, but Woo worked his ass off to make it "legal." The whole corrupt crew should be brought to justice, but until then all we can legitimately do is ask questions and point out the facts.

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  47. Anonymous9:53 AM

    "He is a COMEDIAN. His material happens to be politics."


    Stewart crossed the line from comedian when he decided to publicly condemn the actions of those protesting the illegal wars and deaths caused by the US, while giving a pass to what he calls a "technical" war criminal, George Bush.


    And just what is humorous about Stewart criticizing those who have the courage to speak out publicly against Bush's war crimes and illegal wars and killing --which are ongoing?

    What MSM shows have hosted anyone who speaks of the record of US war crimes? That US citizens are forced to shout about it from the sidelines, instead of having an informed public discussion of the facts, is hardly the fault of the protestors, since the corporate-owned and corporate-sponsored media avoid the subject entirely.

    If Stewart really wants a saner, more civil country he should ask why the work of people like Howard Zinn, Chalmers Johnson, Noam Chomsky, Kathy Kelly, Hans Von Sponek--and so many others-- are glaringly absent from all US MSM outlets. Their reporting, documentation of, and humanitarian concern over US war crimes is relegated to the black hole at the center of moral cowardice and willful ignorance.


    The US has killed millions since World War 2 in covert, illegal military actions. A fact most Americans don't learn in school or from the media.
    A fact that can easily be ascertained through a web search.

    The war crimes committed by the US now and in the past will not be erased from the record of history, nor stopped, because Jon Stewart wants to make politics humurous, or more palatable and comfortable for his audience.

    As a US citizen, I find it indefensible that Stewart tries to whitewash US war crimes as a "technicality."

    Stewart has been given the advantages of education, wealth and celebrity. Why use those priveleges to defend a war criminal, and by extension, the rampant militarism of the US in the world?

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  48. Anonymous11:15 AM

    Anon@ 9:16 you wrote: But this conversation just led to a light bulb moment in Jon's apparent defense of Bush--criticizing the left for calling him a war criminal.

    Of course he is. Yet our justice system does not work that way.



    Bush is a war criminal under international law, to which the US is signatory.According to the US Consitution treaties entered into by the US become the "law of the land."

    The US is signatory to treaties such as the UN protocols, the Geneva Conventions, etc. which specifically prohibit activities the US has engaged in, such as wars of aggression, torture, siege warfare ( as in Iraq when sanctions of needed goods killed over one half-million Iraqis, most of them children under the age of five, before the current war there).

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  49. Anonymous4:05 PM

    The late and much missed Molly Ivins is a great example of a liberal political satirist in that her profession came before her politics.

    She disrespected Reagan while most Texans and Repubicans drooled over him, excoriated Bush number one, excoriated Clinton and doubled down on The Shrub.

    She did not let her personal politics keep her from being a critic of things she considered wrong in politics.

    She did serious research and she was at least as funny as Stewart of Colbert.

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  50. Anonymous4:07 PM

    Personally I think we see Jon being a serious professional where you may have been expecting a comedian.

    After his job is making jokes, his jokes do not necessarily reflect his personal point of view.

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  51. Anonymous10:06 PM

    Honestly, haven't watched the all of the interview and kinda scanned the comments.

    Look, people, we need to NOT become repubs and eat our young! Are you all kidding??? You are worked up and blogging about 2 people having a discussion???!! And from what i can tell from what I have seen - a very intelligent discussIon??? which they might disagree or have different takes???!! Or someone might not feel good....
    p-luhease. So what!? The whole point of this is to not drink the kool aid, correct?

    I attended the "rally to restore.." and did so b/c I just wanted to show that the whole of usa were not crazy whacked out teabaggers...didn't look for a message..I have my own message.

    And, yes, am VERY left (since the early 60's - so been around this whole political thing a bit), but sometimes find the "left 24 hr media" as frantic as the right. And I've gotten over it.

    Rachel vs Jon is just weird. They are 2 people who have ideas....they are a newscaster/entertainer, comedian/satirist... which (perhaps b/c of my age - and the fact that when i was young there was a bunch of the same comedy/commentary/satire on TV - but not the 24 hr "news" - so we knew the difference), I can not get freaked about.

    To be honest, I thought that "Rally to Restore..." was fun. I met a bunch of like minded people of all ages, colors, religions, etc. Got to connect with bloggers, stayed in hotel where everyone went to rally, mini-break in the fall...renewed my faith of what USA is all about. And I thought the idea of "you go then I go then you go then I go" was awesome...ok, some of the skits were lame - they were TV comedians/satirists, for god's sake!

    People, the enemy is not in our tent!

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  52. Anonymous5:46 AM

    A constitutional lawyer's remarks on Bush's recent confession on torture.



    http://www.commondreams.org/view/2010/11/11-2

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