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Okay this is exactly what I have been worried about.If this becomes the norm, or if it gives the mainstream media the excuse they need to simply write these protesters off as hooligans, than the movement is doomed.
At this point I do not know what the circumstances were that led up to these destructive and aggressive behaviors on the part of the protestors, but it is in sharp contrast to the peaceful and very appropriate attitudes we have witnessed in the recent past.
It is my hope that the protestors recognize how damaging this kind of activity will be to their cause, and take aggressive steps to curtail it in the future.
I, like many Americans, want very much to support the movement, but cannot condone, nor excuse, vandalism and violence toward the police or innocent bystanders.
Update: it appears that the vandalism may NOT have been the work of the protestors:
Although most of the marches were peaceful, at least three banks – Chase, Wells Fargo and Bank of America – were damaged during the day, with windows smashed and cash machines put out of service.
Much talk in the camp was of a rogue group having committed the acts, without the backing of most protesters. Bubb Rubb, from Oakland, was unimpressed with "these people in black clothes, with black flags".
"They bamboozled us. They wanted violence," he told the Guardian.
Many of the sites that were vandalised bore posters next to where the incident had occurred, saying it was "not the actions of the 99%".
Okay if this is accurate reporting, and I certainly believe that it is, then this needs to be spread far and wide, because I can guarantee that the images of vandalism and barricades set ablaze will be all over the mainstream media for the next several days.
Are we so sure it was the occupiers and not some opportunistic group either looking to make them look bad or just looking for an excuse to loot and destroy?
ReplyDeleteI don't believe this is the occupiers. I believe this is the work of infiltrators.
ReplyDeleteDon't overlook the chance that this could have been done by plants for the express purpose of making the protesters and the movement look like dangerous wingnuts. It certainly isn't beyond the desire or capabilities of those in power.
ReplyDeleteRick
And it could be a reaction to the violence perpetrated on the protesters by the Oakland police. Could definitely be some frustration brewing up.
ReplyDeleteSad, but partially understandable.
Rick
We already know that corporate paid agitators will be infiltrating the Occupy groups. Why would we not think that this is not just the first wave?
ReplyDeleteAccording to the real estate research firm NeighborhoodScout Oakland is one of the top 100 most dangerous cities in the US. Within California, more than 94% of the communities have a lower crime rate than Oakland. I guess if it was going to happen this would be one of the places where it would. It could be "infiltrators" but there is also an element there that would take advantage.
ReplyDeletetea party plants
ReplyDeleteAgree, Gryphen. I support OWS but not violence. They need to stop this at once.
ReplyDeleteAs more people are losing their jobs and hungry,health care prices skyrocketing,communities crushed by the economy,public schools threatened,people are becoming increasingly angry and the rich keep getting richer.Did the government think we would lie down and accept this.
ReplyDeleteMaybe it is time for the 1% to step in and Congress must address or the violence may increase.
It is a gamble that our country needs to take seriously!
Revenues are up at Neiman Marcus!
The problem is, opponents of OWS know perfectly well that violent, chaotic imagery will turn people off to OWS. So they are going to do everything they can to provoke this violence.
ReplyDeleteIt is going to take the protestors almost superhuman restraint to resist getting provoked. I don't know if they will be able to, especially when they witness their fellow protestors getting the life beaten out of them, tear gassed, and hauled off to jail by the hundreds.
I haven't watched the vid you've embedded, yet, but I did hear that a black bloc group was causing trouble for the Oakland protesters.
ReplyDeleteA good portion of the protesters were cleaning up graffiti off of buildings, picking up stuff from the ground, surrounded a Whole Foods chanting something like "No More Violence!" and saved most of the building from the black bloc anarchists.
I saw something on the Maddow blog this morning but now I can't find the article.
Veterans occupying New York
ReplyDeletehttp://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x2230152
Agents Provocateur are very dangerous to any protest and must be guarded against.
ReplyDeleteI’d like to reword my last post a little more clearly.
ReplyDeleteOWS cannot win through violence. But they also cannot win unless they steadfastly refuse to obey orders to occupy the premises. Unfortunately, the opposition then responds with violence to crush this refusal. Which is going to provoke most of the protestors to do one of two things: fight or flee.
There is a third option, which is to just passively accept the physical blows and tear gas and still refuse to leave. But that takes extraordinary restraint and clear thinking, two traits that tend to be least present in the face of a violent attack.
I pray for our brothers and sisters who have taken to the streets and face this extraordinary challenge.
arrgh...need to correct something in my last post...should say, "But they also cannot win unless they steadfastly refuse to obey orders to LEAVE the premises they occupy."
ReplyDeleteEither Plants or Opportunists.
ReplyDeleteViolence is not an Occupy theme. Don't know how the "organizers" are going to deal with, or prevent these things from happening. Everyone knew this would happen, as groups with agendas took over peaceful demonstrations in the sixties.
Agent Provocateurs.
ReplyDeleteI wish some of these OWS protesters in towns across the country would spend some time protesting in front of the local offices of their Republican members of Congress. You know the ones who are spending all of their time, and our taxpayer dollars, protecting "In God We Trust" and redefining rape with not one moment spent working to get Americans back to work.
ReplyDeleteremember that throughout history the government has used agent provocateurs to manipulate public opinion.
ReplyDeleteits a well known tactic and everyone should be aware of that possibility.
but ask yourself if you are doing something to help this protesters who are fighting for your benefit too as well as their own. themselves.
Doesn't it sound like the police may have started the violence? I'm not sure sending in police in riot gear, throwing tear gas and flash grenades, is the appropriate response to unarmed protesters occupying an abandoned building.
ReplyDeleteConsider your source. MSNBC has gone right since Keith Olbermann left. Media loves this kind of crap, and is no doubt hugely inflaming this incident.
ReplyDeleteSunshine1970
ReplyDeletePlease check your sources before posting a "black bloc group". Without further information, it is not helpful to speak of the race of the bloc group
Please do NOT spread this story without the full facts. This was a TINY number involved. Link
ReplyDeletehttp://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/nov/03/occupy-oakland-police-teargas?newsfeed=true
60 arrests out of 30,000 protestors is pretty small.
Everyone is saying exactly what I
ReplyDeletethought of immediately after reading this post:
Agent provocateurs.
The legitimate protesters can't be held responsible for agent provocateurs that infiltrate them to cause violence and mischief. This was obviously done by paid trolls just like you see on the internet. Same concept just in real life.
ReplyDeleteWhoa! The return of Bubb Rubb! WooWooooo!
ReplyDeleteBut yeah, it's clear now that it was outside elements doing the vandalism. Not that it'll make any difference to the wingnut media.
The Koch boys have warehouses full of their special operatives. They give them each a bus ticket, a case of RedBull, a map and a crisp new $20 if they can incite a riot at any liberal gathering.
ReplyDeleteA liberal gathering is defined as any time two or more Democrats are heard talking about civil rights, education or Planned Parenthood in public. We saw how they reacted to the Wisconsin protests against the GOP cabal, it was only a matter of time before they brought out their tanks and heavy artillery against OWS. The sad thing is that the protests are helping to protect the rights of the very police and firefighters who are shooting rubber bullets, firing off tear gas and breaking up the crowds in a very rough fashion.
Thanks for the update. I hope the media does right by the occupy movement.
ReplyDeleteAha!
ReplyDeletePeople in black clothes with black flags is the hallmark of Anarchists. They make it a habit to take over other's protests and commit acts that reflect badly.
Probably some douchebags planted by douchebags like o'keefe or breitfart.
ReplyDeleteNo one is saying the Black Bloc Group is African American.
ReplyDeleteThey are wearing black clothing and waving a black flag.
Duh.
Reading comprehension?
I knew someone on the old Highlander (TV show) forum who claimed to be an Anarchist. They wear black clothing and go to protests to take over and do stupid things. Like provoke violence or make the protests look bad. They try to co-op them.
I'll bet the Black Bloc Group are Anarchists.
Anon @10:34- the "black bloc" that Sunshine 1970 referred to is not racial at all but instead is about the color of the clothing. Period. The anarchist groups I know of overwhelmingly choose to dress in black clothing, black masks, black bandannas, and so on, hence the "black bloc" name.
ReplyDeleteThis was most likely one of the west coast anarchist collectives deciding that direct action was on the menu, and not peaceful non-violent tactics. Pretty much the same people that blew up the WTO demonstrations in Seattle into the riots that happened there.
Before any starts yelling about a broad brush, yes I am aware that not all anarchists wear black or start riots for fun. On the other hand, virtually no other group chooses the path that anarchists routinely take, so let's just say that it was the "usual suspects" at this point and call it good.
Anyone else having trouble getting on mudflats?
ReplyDeletethis is the secret police in action
ReplyDelete"black bloc" refers to clothing, not race by the way
the secret police dress in the anarchist color, black (although in Toronto when they did this they all wore their police-issued footwear so they were identifiable as such in the videos) and engage in vandalism, which is then blamed on the protestors
you see how well it works - even our host G. was at first quite willing to blame it on a radical fringe of the protestors, instead of the goons of the regime defending the status quo, but in a slightly different way
don't be confused - the power structure will defend itself BY ANY MEANS NECESSARY
only disobedience on a massive scale will be effective in making them bend
Interesting to read that this gang of thugs was wearing black. Exactly the same thing happened in Toronto at the G20 Summit last year. Dressed totally in black, they infiltrated legitimate protest demonstrations, set police cars on fire and vandalized shops. I remember hearing at the time that they were mostly teens and twenty-year-olds who weren't doing it for any good reason, but just to create mayhem. I'm sure they loved seeing footage of themselves doing all the damage while incognito.
ReplyDeleteBlack Bloc.
ReplyDeleteThey did a similar thing at the beginning of the Vancouver Olympics:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3wQ-pQOoJw
Check this from OccupyLA: http://occupylosangeles.org/?q=node/1516
Did they actually interview the real Bubb Rubb? I'm calling shenanigans.
ReplyDeleteContext:
http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/bubb-rubb#.TrL4ebzpa4A
It's the anarchists. Always the damn anarchists. Been in a lot of protests in my life and they always come wanting to take it up a notch or two. Not exactly what Gandhi's non-violence teachings that one is always taught before gathering. I agree with them on some levels, like some and friends with some, but I draw the line,not doing anything that destroys public property. They give anti-war and other protesters a bad name when they show up with their stunts. Can't really stop them, mostly want them to behave nicely.
ReplyDeleteThe Revolution will not be televised and I am old enough to know.
ReplyDeleteThere are thugs and there are persons with a conscience. You will find them on both borders of an issue that needs to be sung. My take is that any overt violence of a "come look at me" kind is the work of the thugs, the ones with a lot of money in their pocket who can gin up that kind of senselessness for no apparent reason but their own. The occurance of their theatrics will be found to be far more evident with a simple search.
K
I am absolutely 100% sure that the violence is being caused by infiltrators and police forces being given orders to aggressively push the protesters into situations to escalate anger and create violent episodes.
ReplyDeleteThis will be their "permission" to up the oppression of the protesters AND suppression of the OWS movement.
Here's a link to Iris Dement's song "Wasteland of the Free" - and the website. I came across it by accident and in my ignorance, had never heard of her before. Anyway - great song - came out in 1996, I think, but, really should be OWS signature song as well as the rest of us who decry the decline of America. It really speaks to the issues of the 99% vs the 1%. Check it out (hope the link works!).
http://wastelandofthefree.com/index.cfm
The provocateurs want to be able to identify their own team members within the crowd, hence the black clothing. They've also been known to wear identifying wristbands, or shoes, or etc. This is a common practice. Don't be fooled.
ReplyDeleteThis smells like the Koch brothers. Examples from Wikipedia under "Agent Provocateur:"
ReplyDelete"In the United States, the COINTELPRO program of the Federal Bureau of Investigation had FBI agents pose as political radicals to disrupt the activities of political groups in the U.S., such as the Black Panthers, Ku Klux Klan, and the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee.
New York City police officers were accused of acting as agents provocateurs during protests against the 2004 Republican National Convention in New York City.
Denver police officers were also found to have used undercover detectives to instigate violence against police during the 2008 Democratic National Convention. This ultimately resulted in the use of pepper spray against their own infiltrating agents."
I saw a clip on the news this afternoon and it looked like the Oakland Chief of Police(?) saying it was anarchists.
ReplyDeleteThe obvious question is how do the OWS groups protect themselves and their message from the "trouble makers"?
ReplyDeleteProbably related to the Black Bloc group that caused all that damage at the Rome occupy last month.
ReplyDeleteAs others have already noted, the trouble in Oakland was undoubtedly caused by anarchists in "Black Bloc" mode. They wear all black -- hooded sweatshirts, pants, backpacks, ski masks -- so they can't be identified. They are very organized and love to disrupt peaceful demonstrations and to destroy or damage property, thus giving legitimate demonstrators a bad name. They infiltrate, do their thing, then race off into the night before they can be caught.
ReplyDeleteThey infiltrated an International Worker's Day parade in Santa Cruz, Ca last year - coming in at the parade's tail end - bashing windows and painting their logo and slogans all around. Thousands of dollars of damages to local businesses.
They make me crazy!
The violence happened after most 99% protesters had already left - it happened late late at night.
ReplyDeleteThis is a group of so-called anarchists, but basically are just a bunch of testosterone-laden guys looking for trouble and taking any excuse to do it.
THEY ARE NOT PART OF THE 99% MOVEMENT!!!
I'm in Oakland. I know.
Anyone with half a brain knew all along that this was the act of infiltrators. They've just gotten smart enough to not update it on their blogs.
ReplyDeleteI wasn't at OO, but several people I know were. This sounds like a pretty accurate report - a small gang of black-flag anarchists came in later to f*ck it up.
ReplyDeleteThe other occupiers were NOT down with this program. Very peaceful for the most part, especially during the day. Did things like wash graffiti off, clean up turned-over garbage cans. People brought their kids to limited events (the library march and some of the rallies in the plaza... not marching down to the port).
Local NPR affiliate seems to have gotten the reporting right.
The anarchists did the same thing in Rome, but to a much more violent and uglier degree.
ReplyDeleteI'm grateful for the update and have seen media coverage of the protest openly declaring it was not them. There was a similar incident in Philadelphia, they occupied the lobby of Comcast, who got a ten year tax abatement and other percs while making huge profits and expanding their stranglehold on the phone, cable, and internet market.
There were a few broken windows, a lot of graffitti, and to be fair, the local media coverage of OWS signs saying "this isn't the work of 99 percent, our message is borne of peaceful protest" did help neutralize the blame game.
Nothing comes from violence and hate, we witnessed that with the now defunct Tea Party. To quote a great Republican Leader "Fool us once, shame on you, fool us twice...we...we can't get fooled again"
Time to dox that black bloc
ReplyDeleteNo doubt there are provacatuers laced inside the larger occupy sites, some hired and some just zealots in their own minds. There usually are. However, anarchists in black show up at every demonstration of any decent size, throw a few things, break a few windows, maybe light a fire if they are lucky but not usually, and then get shut down and run off. They never represent the majority of the demonstrators.
ReplyDelete