Sunday, December 18, 2011

Could this be the next Roe vs Wade?

I stumbled upon this story today, and thought it might serve as a flashpoint for a rather interesting, and I have little doubt passionate, discussion about abortion and the right to life.

Courtesy of the Daily Beast:  

The last thing on Jennie Linn McCormack’s mind when she realized she was pregnant was that she might, with a single telephone call, upend the vitriolic national debate on abortion. 

All she thought about was how it would be impossible for her to take care of another baby. Surviving, barely, on the $250 of monthly child support for one of her three kids, the unemployed, unmarried 32-year-old also knew she didn’t have the more than $500 she’d need for the two-and-a-half-hour trip from her bare-bones rental in Pocatello, Idaho, to Salt Lake City, the closest city with a clinic willing to terminate a pregnancy. She had no computer, no car, no one to take care of her 2-year-old—and like Idaho, Utah had a waiting period for abortions, which meant she’d have to make two round trips. So early this past January, she made the call that may alter history and turn Jennie McCormack into Jane Roe’s unlikely successor: she asked her sister in Mississippi to buy RU-486, the so-called abortion pill, over the Internet and send it to her. The cost: about $200. 

“My mind just kept going back to my kids, how there was no way I could do that to them, no way I could make their lives even worse,” says McCormack, a petite blonde, as she nearly sinks between the cushions of her sofa, her eyes rimmed with tears. The man who had impregnated her had just been sent to jail for robbery; she did not feel comfortable reaching out to her mother—Mormon, like almost everyone in southeastern Idaho—for help. 

McCormack, who thought she was about 12 weeks along, took the pills (the protocol involves two drugs, mifepristone and misoprostol) the afternoon they arrived. The drugs are FDA-approved only for ending early-stage pregnancies; McCormack had no complications, but the pregnancy turned out to be more advanced than she thought—perhaps between 18 and 21 weeks, experts later speculated—and the size of the fetus scared her. She didn’t know what to do—“I was paralyzed,” she says—so she put it in a box on her porch, and, terrified, called a friend. That friend then called his sister, who reported McCormack to the police. 

Although RU-486 is legal and the fetus was not yet “viable” (that is, old enough to live outside the uterus), Idaho has a 1972 law—never before enforced—making it a crime punishable by five years in prison for a woman to induce her own abortion. The day after police arrested McCormack, her mug shot appeared above the fold in the local newspaper. “It’s hard to imagine the humiliation and fear,” says her lawyer, Richard Hearn, who is also a physician. 

The case was dropped weeks later due to lack of evidence. Without solid proof, such as the envelope in which the pills came, her confession wasn’t enough to sustain the case. But prosecutors retained the right to re-file charges. In response, Hearn got a federal injunction to prevent any woman from being prosecuted under the state’s anti-abortion statute by the district attorney. He also filed a class-action suit against the state, claiming the statute is unconstitutional. But all that took nine months to play out, and McCormack lurched into depression and became a virtual shut-in.  

“You’d have to know the climate here,” says Hearn, “to fully imagine the amount of pressure Jennie is under, how hostile people can be, how isolated she is.” Next week, motions will be heard in federal court to certify the suit as a class action. Last week, the prosecutor filed a motion to have Hearn’s injunction lifted. (The prosecutor’s office did not return calls seeking comment.) 

Now as many of you may know, while I have mixed feelings about abortion in general, I do support a woman's right to choose in almost every case, though I simply cannot defend late term abortions that are not performed to protect the life of the mother.

This case is especially troubling, in that this woman seems to have been significantly irresponsible, and while I may have empathy for her situation, I am also disgusted by the result of her decisions. And the fact that there were NO medical professionals involved raises questions concerning whether or not individual women should be trusted to have the clarity of thought to terminate their pregnancies without a medical consultation.

In other words this is a very troubling scenario which does not seem to easily lend itself to the usual carefully defined arguments both for, or against, abortion.

However as much as we might all want to simply look away, it seems that this might be a VERY important case going forward.

“It’s a profoundly important case,” says Arthur Caplan, director of the Center for Bioethics at the University of Pennsylvania. “But it’s one that neither the pro-choice nor the pro-life people want to deal with. And that’s what makes it so crucial.” 

It’s a bad case for both sides. The fact that McCormack kept a 4-month-old fetus frozen in the winter chill on her back porch is the sort of ghoulish image pro-choice activists try to avoid. For pro-life advocates, supporting her arrest would contradict a longstanding policy of targeting providers while holding women blameless. “It would require a massive change in direction if the anti-abortion movement now supported the criminal prosecution of women directly, which is why McCormack is troubling,” says Cynthia Gorney, a former Washington Post reporter and the author of Articles of Faith: A Frontline History of the Abortion Wars. “It would violate everything they built the movement on.”

So  I am very interested in hearing from all of you what your opinions are concerning this particular case, and whether in the end it will be used to support the pro-life argument, or the pro-choice argument, or if BOTH sides will avoid it at all cost.

Oh, and let's please avoid name calling, shall we? I know that passions will run high, but that kind of talk really damages a true debate on the issues.

(P.S. There is more to read, so if you wish to learn more about this case just click the link at the top.)

162 comments:

  1. To me it is a strong case of why there needs to be affordable (and when necessary free) health care for women (even if that means terminating an early stage pregnancy) in all states and for that matter all medical facilities - if she were not desparate I doubt that this situation would have arisen and she could have gotten the medical care and access to medical help she needed before having to go to such an extreme.

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  2. hedgewytch10:32 AM

    This speaks to the travesty of our current health care and educational system. How much sex ed did this young woman receive? Or was she just taught "abstinence only"? She should have been able to walk to a local health clinic and receive advice and counseling. She should have been able to get the medication she needed.

    Instead, through ignorance, fear, and lack of social support, this is what happens. A shame on us all.

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  3. Anonymous10:41 AM

    It is shameful that no matter what her choice was that she had no access to healthcare in her area.

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  4. Jeez, I am completely pro-choice so I support this woman's right to choose an abortion. But, you're oh, so right about her being so irresponsible about getting pregnant in the first place. Even deploring the circumstances, I still stand behind her choice.

    The problems come in because society - or a certain vile segment of it - has become so anti-choice and has been able to rewrite state laws and otherwise make it difficult/impossible for a woman to proceed with an entirely LEGAL procedure. I won't go into what I think of these people; just know that they are ruining American society.

    This woman did some crazy-ass stuff to bring on an abortion. Do the anti-choice people not realise that many, many women will resort to doing the same things in order to have an abortion? Outlawing abortion or making them extremely difficult/impossible to get will NOT make the need/desire to have one disappear. It'll just bring coat hangers and pills out to play for poor women, while rich women will know - and be able to afford - how to get safe abortions.

    I'm shaking my head at the idiocy here on all sides.

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  5. Anonymous10:43 AM

    I am discouraged and disappointed to see you write:

    "raises questions concerning whether or not individual women should be trusted to have the clarity of thought" to make their own medical decisions.

    You are correct that it is a troubling and complex case. But to even question whether adults can be trusted to make their own medical decisions is equally troubling. Do you think individual men can be trusted to have the clarity of thought to make their own medical decisions?

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  6. ThanksABunchJohn10:45 AM

    This poor woman, my heart goes out to her. This is what happens when there are no facilities and medical assistance available to women. It sounds like time was ticking away as she tried to figure out how to deal with her situation. When desperation ensues, tragedy is the result. Disgusting zealots. I'm at a loss...

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  7. To follow up on my earlier comment, we - the free thinkers, ie Democrats - have to get politically motivated to get the system changed and throw these anti-choicers out of office.

    It's only going to get worse if we don't.

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  8. Anonymous10:47 AM

    My body, my choice full stop. Take away the options for safe choices and this will not be a one time story.

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  9. Anonymous10:47 AM

    Three kids and only one receives support from the father?

    I think this woman's first and foremost problem is men, or at least her choice thereof, as well as the lack of birth control.

    If you're going to continue having short-term relationships, don't get pregnant. There is no excuse for doing so these days. There hasn't been much excuse for the past 50 years, since birth control of many forms became available.

    As a young divorced mother of 2, I knew that was enough children for me, and also knew I did not want to remarry, so 40 yrs ago, I underwent a tubal ligation (which I would have gotten earlier had I been able to find a dr to perform the operation). I highly recommend it if other forms of birth control are rejected for whatever reason.

    I always wonder how children from those sorts of situations will turn out. After all, this woman already knew she couldn't really care for 3 children even financially and she allowed herself to become pregnant a 4th time?

    I agree that this is a horrible story; it even made this lifelong feminist cringe. How about more education and less party time for these young girls coming up these days? It used to be "But he said he loved me!" Now, it's not even that--more like, "It's just sex, you know."

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  10. Sgt. Preston10:49 AM

    It sounds like she did what she had to do, and could do, under very difficult circumstances, and given the information she had available.

    Th villains in this story are the meddling politicians and religious fundies who want to run other people's lives.

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  11. Anonymous11:03 AM

    If humans would stop breeding like rabbits, this would never have become a problem. It would also solve the world overpopulation problem.

    Health care is a myth.

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  12. Anonymous11:03 AM

    This isn't a woman, it's a village idiot. What a total mess when an idiot smashes up against ideology and law.

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  13. Anonymous11:03 AM

    Bingo 10:49AM.

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  14. Anonymous11:03 AM

    To those who wonder why this woman allowed herself to get pregnant for the fourth time - I would imagine that access to reliable birth control is nearly as difficult for her as access to medical care.

    As for why did she choose to have sex - don't even go there unless you ask the same question of men.

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  15. I agree with Lady Rose and Hedgewytch...to me this is proof positive that in these fundie red states with no access to affordable healthcare and birth control, uneducated ignorant women like this will continue to procreate and produce welfare babies.

    This case also speaks to the piss poor state of our adoption system, and antiquated laws which do nothing to place children into permanent homes. I'm sure there are thousands of adoptive parents who would be more than eager to welcome this woman's white baby into their homes. They would pay medical expenses, etc. . When I think about all the childless couple who waste tens of thousands of dollars on IVF and other risky procedures , then read about this, I want to literally get sick. We live in a fucked up world.

    All I know is, I was 30 when I had my first child afer 5 years of marriage, and I had sex for many years before that, and somehow managed not to get pregnant. It's called birth control, can't this bitch go down to Walmart and get some condoms?

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  16. Anonymous11:06 AM

    If she had had medical advice, the advice would have been to not abort, given the fetus's stage of development. So maybe she didn't want medical advice. Next option, do it on your own. She did, and it worked. So why the fuck did she then treat the fetus so inhumanely?

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  17. Anonymous11:10 AM

    As a woman who nearly adopted a child before becoming pregnant it does bother me anybody is pregnant who does not want to be. I would worry about the prenatal care the reluctant mother exercised and the attendant responsibility to eat properly and avoid drugs that would harm a developing fetus. I believe it is up to the mother to exercise the right to choose whether to go ahead with a pregnancy or abort. The situation this woman is in shows the difficulty of allowing states to decide the abortion issue on their own terms. I hope this woman can rise above the religious intolerance that surrounds her. The Bible takes no view on abortion. Unfortunately, there are some religious zealots who would like to see women lose rights that many women have fought hard through the years to acquire. I came from a line of incredibly strong women and remember clearly an evening when my great aunts described abortions they were compelled to have during the Depression. Life is not perfect, but we can try to make it so.

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  18. sharon285311:10 AM

    Wow, this is troubling to both sides of the issue I'm sure.

    It's obvious jennie is not using birth control and those of us not in her situation are automatically going to question her reasons why.

    This is not the issue but it's a part of it. Why isn't birth control taught and provided much more then it is?

    I'm not pro-life but i don't feel good about abortions in general. Nobody does. However, my mother told me how her own mother died of complications from a backroom abortion in the 1930's. It's tragic.

    For that reason, I do not believe that abortions should be banned.
    I believe it's a personal choice.

    Jennie is not an isolated example. Is it fair to assume the responsibility and anguish should fall on the woman simply because the pregancy ends up in our bodies?

    Men arent' held to the same moral and ethical questions because they aren't designed to get pregant. Men shouldn't be permitted to weigh in on the abortion issue in my opinion. I know I'll get a backlash on that one. The woman is left alone to decide on an issue that goes against everything they're designed to embrace.

    More facilities should be available for women that includes free birth control.

    Prime example of the fucked up system is scott walker in wisconsin. He's done everything possible to strip Planned Parenthood of funding and the ability to help women like Jennie.

    The only people that should decide if abortion is the right path are the women facing the decision.

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  19. Anonymous11:11 AM

    Well, she is an example of "american exceptionalism". Kid's with different men, bad coices, apparent lack of education or a job that would help her financially. I beleive she has every righht to terminate the prgnancy, but abortion should not be used as a form of birth control. Stop getting pregnant in the first place honey.It's really not all that hard to not get pregnant these days lol!She should have been under a doctors care....she could have died if something went amiss with the termination of the older fetus.Also, jeez don't talk to so many people as one of them called the cops on you!
    Yep. Lack of education seems to be at the heart of this tale.

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  20. Self induced is going to be the new norm with the increasingly restrictive abortion laws.

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  21. Anonymous11:15 AM

    I agree strongly with Lady Rose at 10:29, and others. With adequate health care, this situation would have been prevented. Say what you will about "idiots," unplanned pregnancies and unprotected sex,there are many many women who find themselves in similar positions. I suspect it has always been this way. With proper, affordable, accessible health care,it would never have come to this.

    I am an almost elderly hetero female with two planned children and no grandchildren. This is a community issue, a societal problem, and not one for righteous judgements. As hedgewytch said, shame on us all. And I add especially the lawmakers.

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  22. Anonymous11:16 AM

    Personally, I don't think abortion should be used as birth control. I know too many women who have had multiple abortions. You should learn to prevent pregnancy if you don't want to get pregnant. There is my difference with the right to life people. They are against abortion and against birth control. Idiots!

    That being said, I still believe abortion should be legal, but only used in the first 3 or 4 months of a pregnancy. The sooner the better, unless there is a medical reason.

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  23. Anonymous11:17 AM

    Gryphen, late term abortions are only done to save the life of the mother and occur in the last trimester of pregnancy.

    You're confusing "late term" with second trimester abortions, which are legal and performed in many cities across the US, although they are less widely available than first term abortions and have to be performed near to a hospital in case something goes wrong. Second trimester abortions are only performed up to about 19 to 21 weeks gestation, still before the embryo is viable outside the womb.

    Which do you object to -- second trimester or late term abortions? One or both?

    It's very common to get the two confused, which is understandable! And the religious right spends a lot of money purposefully confusing the issue so people start to believe all these heartless women are running around aborting babies who could live outside the womb, when this is in fact illegal except in hospital settings where a late term abortion will only be done to save the life of the mother. And those procedures are exceedingly rare.

    Mitt Romney famously showed up at a hospital and physically tried to intimidate and pressure a women into not having a late term abortion even AFTER her spiritual leader in the Mormon church gave her permission -- she would have died had the abortion not been given to her. So Mittens doesn't much like late term abortions in ANY case and just told the woman she should be happy to die and let God do his thing. Crazy.

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  24. Anonymous11:18 AM

    21 weeks/5 months pregnant...a loss at that time is usually considered a stillbirth, not a miscarriage. This woman is VERY lucky she did not bleed to death.

    I'm struck by the contrast- this past week the Duggar family held a memorial for the child they lost at about the same point in pregnancy.

    The woman in this story disgusts me, quite frankly. She has three kids and she's in her 30s. It's not like this was some fresh faced high school student who really had no idea how pregnant she was- this woman knew full well she was well into her second trimester, I believe. She got her sister to get the pills because she knew no clinic would abort a fetus only weeks from viability unless the mother's life was in danger.

    Never mind the issue concerning her getting pregnant in the first place. So she's got three little ones at home, is the sole caregiver and support for them- yet she sees fit to have unprotected sex with a criminal, and possibly even bringing him around her children?

    I'm sorry, but her righteous mommy act makes me want to vomit. She is careless, stupid, and instead of getting the FREE BIRTH CONTROL available from her county, she endangered her life and risked having her children find their mother's body in a pool of her own blood with a dead baby on the floor. There's "irresponsible" and there's "tie your tubes already, selfish witch".

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  25. I am so glad she was able to successfully terminate the pregnancy without physical complications. I have been in her situation (but without other children) and sincerely hope she is receiving counseling to help her gain life skills to improve her circumstances for her and her children.

    It's not that she should have had medical consultation, it's that our society makes it so impossible for young women - that smacks of intense hatred of women in the great U S of A.

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  26. Once again, the impregnating male pays no consequences at all.

    She's still alone.

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  27. Anonymous11:24 AM

    She doesn't look like she lives on $250/mo.

    There's something very wrong with this story and with her.

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  28. I was pregnant in the '60s when there wasn't any legal abortions. Never once did I even think of an abortion; I was going to have my baby that was it--married or not didn't matter. However, because other women chose to have illegal abortions and many died or were so damaged they could never have children was a deep concern for me. It's not a choice that I would make, but it was a choice that other women made and I believed that medical assistance was necessary for women who made that choice.
    Why should a woman go to jail when she makes a decision to have an abortion? Women in our country will turn back to illegal abortions. If woman cannot find the healthcare to assist with an abortion because its illegal, then we need to make it illegal for men to have "pills" to give them a bigger penis or pills so that they can "get it up" because surely they are going to impregnate someone who may decide to have an abortion! Right now,health insurance pays for Viagra for men, but the "men" in the US want to control what a woman can do with her body! Why should men have the right to have control over their penis, but woman lose the right to have control over their own bodies? Woman turning to illegal abortions can cost them their lives, but men "not being able to get it up" isn't going to cost him his life! Now, let's talk about choice!

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  29. Anonymous11:27 AM

    The most troubling thing is the absolute lack of professional services she could rely on. Regardless of how anyone feels about her personal level of responsibility, this ended up being a no-win situation for her, her children and the aborted fetus. I think it illustrates that there are ghoulish unintended consequences to the current Republican push to de-fund and limit abortion services. They are fooling themselves if they think that will stop desperate people from terminating pregnancies. All they are doing is ensuring these pregnancies will end in the most unpleasant ways possible. There is nothing Christian about that.

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  30. This is my story,and I am VERY lucky I did not get pregnant from it:

    1979.
    18 years old.
    The Army.
    Germany, sent out to the field for the first time.
    The only woman and 1500 men.
    I was the Medic, they were Engineers.
    Alone, in the dark being watched, only I didn't know
    Vilseck, Germany after two weeks without a shower, we were allowed to go to Tent city for 2 days.
    Much Celebrating. Much Drinking. After showers the partying started.
    I was invited.
    A cute boy
    Fun
    free drinks
    more drinks
    Something wrong....
    Room spinning
    Dizzy
    can't walk
    being carried
    pass out
    wake up
    can't move
    tied up
    can't talk
    gag in mouth
    voices
    someone on me
    wet between the legs
    laughter
    another body on me
    tears
    another body
    all night
    over and over again
    how many?
    Don't know
    too many
    over and over again
    thrusting
    sweaty
    pawing
    pain
    tearing
    more laughter
    in and out of conscience
    how many?
    could be twenty
    could be a hundred
    all ranks
    all sizes
    all ages
    all penises
    all thrusting
    all sweating
    lots of pain
    smell of greasy tent
    smell of booze
    smell of tobacco
    smell of man sweat
    smell of semen
    smell of sex
    all thrusting
    all groping
    all squeezing
    all pawing
    only one, who when he saw my tears, stopped in his tracks
    But he walked out, and another came in to take his place
    over and over again
    no help
    none in sight
    all night long
    in and out of reality
    in and out of dreams
    more body's
    more men
    more thrusting
    how many hours?
    finally the sweet release of awareness
    awakening
    naked
    in the showers
    bruises and blood everywhere
    Pain
    oh my God the pain
    all consuming pain
    my clothing in a pile
    scrub
    scrub
    scrub
    scrub
    scrub
    scrub
    scrub
    scrub
    water is cold
    scrub some more
    scrub
    scrub
    scrub
    scrub
    scrub
    scrub
    scrub
    scrub
    put on uniform
    met at door, by commanding Officer
    stern words about MY behavior
    told if I talked, it would be MY fault
    Threatened with prison for "enticing"
    handed orders to be transferred
    Told to pack my bags
    Transportation waiting
    Warned again
    If you talk, you die
    or worse
    watching blindly as the trees roll by
    curling up inside of me
    hiding the pain
    hoping the pain will fade
    as the bruises do
    can't walk, can't sit, can't take a shit
    blaming myself
    Others have
    so why not me?
    Guilt
    it weighs on a mind
    remembering what was said
    silence it is my friend
    denial
    lock the pain away
    never talk they said
    never talk I did
    The pain it became my friend
    To this day, it never ends.

    End of part 1

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  31. Anonymous11:28 AM

    First thought - why no birth control?

    Second thought - why so far to the nearest facility that performs abortions.

    Afterthought - with three kids already, when did she find time to get pregnant again?

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  32. Anonymous11:28 AM

    blame the health care system and the anti-abortion people
    don't blame her

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  33. Part 2

    I'd like to sit down in a room with right to lifers and describe to them in minute detail everything that happened the night I raped over and over again by fellow soldiers. You know, it's been thirty years, and I still get sick to my stomach, my hands still sweat and shake, thinking about it. And I'm one of the lucky ones. I wasn't physically scarred for life. I didn't end up pregnant.

    If I had, and if an abortion had been denied to me because I was in the military. I can promise you something: I would've ended up killing myself if I couldn't abort that baby. They can't understand, will obviously never understand, why many women wouldn't be able to face carrying their child to term. Let me just put it this way: there are worse things than getting raped. One of them is being denied any chance to regain some control over your own body afterward. One of them is being forced to put your body through the further trauma of pregnancy and childbirth against your will. And at that time, in the aftermath of the worst morning of my life, I wouldn't have had the mental strength to deal with it. It was hard enough putting the shattered pieces back together without a swelling belly and constant reminders of the horror I'd gone through.

    But they don't care about a woman's welfare. Obviously not.

    I wish I could take them back in time. I wish I could turn what's in my mind into a film, so I could walk them through the event. I'd like to see their faces when they're faced with the reality of sexual violence.

    I'd like them to have to experience every emotion with me, both during the attack and in the months and years afterward. I'd like them to know just what it is to have control and integrity ripped away from you.
    end of part 2

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  34. Part 3


    They believe abortion is murder, and yet each and every one of them, should you ask, would likely tell you that killing someone in self-defense is justifiable. Let me try to explain something to them: getting rid of a clump of cells isn't murder, but let's play on their field a moment. That clump of cells that could become a human being someday is an intruder. It broke in, it wasn't invited, and it's stealing from me. It could kill me. It's certainly going to hurt me, both mentally and physically. So if you believe some homicides are justified, why do you think it's not justifiable to kill that intruder?

    They need to walk in my mind. They need to watch the months it took, feel the force of will it took, to regain function again, to not hide in the house anymore, to learn how to cope with a terrible new reality. I wasn't capable of normal function for quite some time. It took years before I could trust people again. I still have bad moments. But I'm nearly a whole human again. I don't think I would've gotten there if I knew I'd been forced to bear my rapist's baby. And I don't have words strong enough to describe the visceral reaction I have to the idea. That would have given me a lifelong connection to my rapist. That would have been a level of trauma beyond my imagination. I know my mind well enough to know that bearing a rape baby at the age of 18 would have broken it.

    Is that the price I'm supposed to pay for being attacked? According to the right to lifers, it is. It's my fault, you see. I should've fought hard enough to keep from being impregnated or died in the attempt. Nothing else will do. They care more for a clump of cells than they do for a living, breathing, thinking and suffering woman.

    But I don't think they've thought this through, and that's why I'd like them to experience what I did. Because then, you see, they could imagine what it would be like if that had been their wife, or their daughter, or some other woman they may actually care about. They may have to look at her a bit differently, and wonder if it's worth destroying her in order to force her to grow a clump of cells fertilized by a rapist. They might have to ask themselves if they'd really want her rape to be so forcible that it could kill her before they'd allow her the choice of aborting that clump of cells before she gets traumatized all over again.

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  35. Anonymous11:35 AM

    If she had a local Planned Parenthood center or other facility that she could visit where she could get medical consultation and a safe abortion, this situation would have happened.

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  36. eclecticsandra11:36 AM

    This is another example of how desperate women can be with unwanted pregnancies. Laws cannot relieve the desperation unless they allow for medically safe resolution.

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  37. Anonymous11:52 AM

    Another thing about this story (and others about women having children with multiple men) is that none of them, the women or the men, are having safe sex. A $5 condom would have prevented this pregnancy, too.

    How does one get to be 32 yrs old and such a dunce about sexual mores and practices?

    I'm a very pro-choice feminist, but women today mystify me.

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  38. Anonymous11:59 AM

    I really don't think that it's an issue of birth control and access. Let's face it, if I had no money,3 kids and no access, I'd cross my legs. It works. I think that she lives in a state of chaos (for whatever underlying issues) and she keeps compounding her problems out of desperation. She wanted to get pregnant to the last jailbird so he would stay and help her with her "hot mess" of a life. It's very sad for the children. They have no choice. I hope she is not exploited as I fear she may be in this issue. She's needs some good therapy to be prepared for this new hurricane abou to enter her life.

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  39. Doubting Thomas I am so sorry for your pain.

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  40. grammy9712:00 PM

    Before the illegal immigrants from the British Isles got off their boats in New England, the first nations on this continent had medicine. If a woman found herself pregnant and a famine was looming, or her nation was at war, there were herbs growing in the ground. She could make her teas, and deal with the pain. And when her town had to evacuate, she didn't have a crying baby to carry.

    I'm disappointed to read all the virulent criticisms of this young woman. She doesn't look big enough to fight off a determined "date". And her mother must have never taught her anything useful. Let's stop blaming her.

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  41. Anonymous12:02 PM

    "This case is especially troubling, in that this woman seems to have been significantly irresponsible, and while I may have empathy for her situation, I am also disgusted by the result of her decisions. And the fact that there were NO medical professionals involved raises questions concerning whether or not individual women should be trusted to have the clarity of thought to terminate their pregnancies without a medical consultation."

    Amazingly judgmental, especially for someone who could never himself become pregnant.

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  42. Anonymous12:03 PM

    This story illustrates why choice is and should remain an intensely personal issue.

    If I put myself into her position, I think I would have sworn the RU-486-providing sister to secrecy, and I'd have told her I didn't need to use the meds after all (because I had a miscarriage) and tossed them out unused. yes, I would lie to protect my sister and myself. I would have buried the fetus myself, never telling anyone. I would have made the same choice she did re aborting this baby, which she was unable to raise. With a convict for a bio-Dad, I would not consider giving birth in order to give up the baby for adoption, although that might have earned her some extra money beyond her costs.

    The trouble comes when one involves others in what is the ultimate private decision: life and death.

    Those of us who have watched over a much-loved pet or human die know that there are times when mercy-killing would be a blessing. We cannot involve others in such a thing, or they must testify that we had no right. I can see how laws to this effect are reasonable. I just hope if I need help to die I will have something to help me, because I do not want to burden a loved one with such a task, nor do I want to linger and suffer -- and cause my loved ones the exquisite pain of witnessing my suffering. Been there, done that.

    So I do think we do have and should have control over life and death issues. But we must beware of busybodies who want badly to be the monday-morning quarterback.

    Does my position leave room for abuse? Yes. Can taking a hands-off, do-nothing stance be a form of abuse too? Yes. Like life and death itself, it's complicated.

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  43. I was a Freshman when Roe v Wade was decided. *I* decided I could never have an abortion. So *I* trotted myself down to Planned Parenthood and got birth control pills. That's the choice I made.

    I am anti-abortion but pro-choice. I don't have the right to make that decision for anyone else. Neither do politicians. I especially resent these sanctimonious fools for whom life begins at conception but ends at birth. Women have always been able to terminate pregnancies they didn't want. Whether it's legal or not it is going to continue to happen. Making it harder and harder to get a safe abortion won't stop it. For that reason alone, it should be safe and legal.

    I can't agree with this woman's irresponsible behavior. If you don't want to get pregnant, use birth control or have sex that doesn't involve intercourse.

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  44. Anonymous12:16 PM

    Lots of judgmental responses re what the woman should have done before conception, and what society should be doing. Those are interesting issues, but not right when a woman faces an unwanted pregnancy. Coulda woulda shoulda at either the personal or societal level is not helpful at that point.

    Historical facts tell us that when abortion is not available legally, women terminate pregnancies illegally: wealthy women do so safely and conveniently; poor women do so unsafely and in the most hideous ways. But there is no question that many women insist upon control over their body, whether that is legal or not.

    How about saving the judging of this poor woman for some other day and just give her a break?

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  45. Thank You for your words Gryphen.

    Now for the rest of the story.....
    A litte over a year after my rape (that I was lucky enough not to get pregnant from). I DID get pregant and chose to keep that baby. I fought tooth and nail to keep that baby! You see, I found out I had endrometrial cancer when I was 6 months pregnant. This was going to be the only child I would ever give birth too!

    Let me start from the begining....

    In December of 1980, I came home for Christmas. Mom took one look at me and said "You're Pregnant!". I said "No I am NOT! I have not missed a period, it is due any day now, see the tampons I have packed."

    Turns out she was right! When I got back to Germany 2 weeks later I found out for sure! Since I was stationed in the Grafenwohr Army Base Emergency Room, I was able to run my own pregnancy test. You could have knocked me over with a feather when it came back positive! I asked to get off work early so I could share the news with my Husband, after a quick exam by my Doctor, I was cleared to go home early. I walked in to find him in bed with his best friend George....I was devastated! (This was before "Don't ask, Don't tell"). He then denied being the father because he was gay! (Like being gay has anything to do with sperm mobility! He had no problem marrying me, or having sex with me and he was gay...so I still don't get the connection...). When he married me, he never said he was gay! I had no clue until I caught him in bed with George!

    So I moved back into the barracks and we became separated. Not only was I thousands of miles from home, alone in Germany, Pregnant and going through a Divorce but something was wrong! I was getting twice the size I should have been and getting skinnier everywhere else! My Doctor thought maybe I was having twins but as Ultrasound was so new, none of the Army bases had one! I had to go to a German Hospital that specialized in Obstetrics. What they found was that I had one child, and a "lump". They then stuck a needle behind my cervix into the Uterus and extracted a small piece of material. (You cannot imagine how painful that was!!) It was cancerous. Of course this was all said in German, and I had a hard time following the conversation. I had to wait for the paper work to be translated for my Doctor to read and tell me what the findings were.

    My Doctor STRONGLY recommended that I abort the baby. I was already 6 months pregnant by this time. I said, you are telling me that I am not even 21 yet (I would turn 21 a few months later), and I may not ever have another child and you want me to abort a six month old fetus??? NO WAY!!!

    I decided to take my chances. The Doctor then said, well, I am not equipped to deal with this kind of medical problem, so we are reassigning you to Fort Sam Houston where they have a good Oncology unit and Obstetrician department. They can help you. So I was put on a C130 Military Plane at 8 months pregnant (no windows and all the seats faced the rear of the plane...I had never been so sick in my life!!) and sent to Texas.

    The Doctors there were optimistic that I was going to be OK, and that Chemo and Radiation could wait til after my baby was born because, "We think the reason the tumor is growing so fast is because of the hormones your body is producing due to pregnancy. The tumor growth will slow down (or even stop) once you have the baby."

    end part 1

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  46. Part 2

    Once I had Charles Robert Kuhn on August 29th, 1981 (one month to the day after I turned 21) and was released from the hospital on Sept 1st, I flew home to Wisconsin. I had lost so much weight during my pregnancy because of the cancer, that I was able to wear my before pregnancy jeans on the day I got out of the hospital and flew on the plane home, comfortably.

    Once home, I did not want to worry anyone about my condition, so I did not say a word. I mean how could I? Between learning during my first go round with cancer as a kid that you do not talk about it, and just deal with the pain and procedures and not wanting to put my Mother through a ton of worry when there was nothing she could do to help. Besides, everyone was too busy cooing over Charles to ask why I was so thin anyway. They did think it was "odd" that I had a hard time letting anyone hold my baby though. They all counted it as "New Mommy" syndrome. In fact it was because I did not know if I would ever be able to have another baby....I did say that I wanted Charles Robert to be called C. Robert, or Robby for short, as I thought Charles was too stuffy for a little boy and I HATED (and still do) the name "Charlie" or Chuck". Wouldn't you know it, Robby wants to be called "Chuckie" by everyone today...

    I had the usual 6 week maternity leave, and it was back to the usual Army routine. Get up and get myself ready for the Army at 3:30 am, get Robby ready for the babysitter, take him to the sitters house, and be on base in time for 4:30am Physical fitness, work until 8pm (or later), go pick up Robbie, feed him dinner, give him a bath, put him to bed and then feed myself and fall into bed exhausted. Turns out, he was a colicky baby and cried all the time, so I was REALLY exhausted! When my cherished grandmother passed away around this time. I jumped at the chance to come home for a few days. Not only was I able to say good bye to her, and see family, but I was going to get a break from the exhausting routine I was in. (yes, even a funeral was better than my daily routine, thats how bad it was...)

    I was getting thinner and thinner, the Doctors said the cancer was growing again and I needed to have surgery, Chemo and Radiation. I knew that I just could not take care of a toddler and go through this too. I also did not want to worry or scare her in how bad things were (my boyfriend was also abusing me, physically and mentally) and I wanted Robbie to be in a safe place, so I simply asked if she would take him and never told her ANY of the reasons why, other than "The Army doesn't want single Mothers to have custody of their children while serving." (This is STILL true today).

    End part 2

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  47. I then went through MANY painful procedures to test the cancer before the Doctors decided to do a Hysterectomy (It was "Endrometrial Cancer with outer Uterine wall involvement that was spreading to the abdominal walls".). When they did do the Hysterectomy, I was asked if I could be a "Guinea Pig" for a new surgical instrument that was supposed to "Revolutionize Hysterectomy's". Turned out to be EXTREMELY painful!!

    I then started Chemo, radiation and my hair fell out. I was also still in the Army, and had to work "full" time. This meant being utilized in areas were a healthy person was "just a body". Things like being sent to Camp Bullis (an Air Force base just outside of San Antonio) to sit in an ambulance in the field overnight (since my Chemo was during the day) while military officers were on training maneuvers. Or sitting in an ambulance while the same officers were on the Gun Range or going through the Gas Chambers on days when I was not going through Chemo.

    So my days (and nights) were spent puking and watching my hair fall out while sitting in a Korean war era tin can ambulance in the Texas summer time heat with no air conditioning, hoping the Officers would not hurt themselves so I would have to help them, because I was barely able to move myself.

    After the Chemo and Radiation treatments were done, I stayed in the Army for another year. I was transfered to Brooke Army Medical Center, where I worked the Burn Unit for six months, then transfered to the Pediatric Oncology unit. Then decided it was time to move on. I was shocked when 3 months after my discharge when I received a payment from the VA along with a letter saying I was now a "Service Connected Disabled Veteran" for "Loss of use of a Creative Organ".

    After asking questions, I was told it was because I was the only surviving person that had been using a portable X-Ray machine in Grafenwohr Germany Emergency Room! It had a cracked lead shield and the other two people that had used it had died of cancer. Susan had died of Leukemia and Scott died of Lymphoma.

    I guess in the long run, I was the lucky one, even though it was my second dance with the Big "C"!.

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  48. Anonymous12:22 PM

    I agree with most that abortion should not be a form of birth control. But still, it is preferable to bringing a baby into the world that will either be unwelcome or abused. However, to Virginia voter, what difference does it make if the child is white or of color? I know from experience that white parents are more than capable of raising babies and children of color. Been there and done that and also know many others.
    Thank you to Sharon2853 for being more important than men on this issue, talk about fucked up.
    If there were more couples willing to adopt any child it could go a long way to relieving abuse and hunger. These adoptees could look forward to a better life in many ways. Besides, brown babies are just cuter. Both of my kids think so too.

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  49. Anonymous12:23 PM

    Good looking women attract men.

    Isn't it about time she learned how to use birth control?

    That said, something is wrong in this story.

    I'm pro choice by the way.

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  50. Anonymous12:23 PM

    I'm more than a little curious how any adult views someone else's abortion as negatively impacting them in any real way.

    Socially? Financially? Medically? Does anything bad happen to you, personally, if some woman has an abortion? Can you explain how that woman is threatening YOU, that you feel compelled to interfere?

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  51. "...whether or not individual women should be trusted to have the clarity of thought to terminate their pregnancies without a medical consultation."

    NOT the state or federal government's business.

    I shudder that the current Supreme Court may consider this case.

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  52. So yes, I am a supporter of a woman's choice to choose what to do with her body.

    There are too many women that cannot afford a child (or another child).

    There is too little teaching of sex education so that women have the knowledge of how to prevent pregnancy.

    There is not enough clinics to give out free condoms, free birth control and free education.

    There are too many men that will not step up to do the right thing and support their own child. Men that will deny their own children.

    Rich or Poor, there is too much ignorance about simple bodily functions (see Brisdull Paylin talk about abstance when it fills her pocket book, and yet goes on having sex and children).

    Our Children need our help to become educated. After all, who would you have them listen too? Brisdull Paylin?

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  53. Anonymous12:29 PM

    Doubting Thomas -- I've never before read such a moving, terrifying account, and my thoughts are with you, sending you all good things. Thank you for sharing that first-hand experience with us. I am so very glad you had the strength to survive it. I agree re suicide if abortion had not been possible.

    One more hideous thing re a rape baby is knowing, as its Mom, how it came to be. Perhaps loving that child but nevertheless shadowing it with this fact that can never be erased.

    Again, thank you for telling your story. --Amy1

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  54. Anonymous12:33 PM

    OMG, Doubting Tomas -- what a cliffhanger the "rest of the story" is. At least we know YOU made it. Eager to hear more. --Amy1

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  55. Anonymous12:36 PM

    Let's be sure to teach our kids that they shouldn't know how babies are made.

    Let's be sure to teach our kids that using contraception is wrong and immoral.

    Let's be sure that those who can't afford to have kids can't prevent a pregnancy in case they have sex. Ignore that all sex is not consensual to double down on the hypocrisy of blaming all unwanted pregnancies on the woman.

    Additional improvements in this scheme may be made by passing laws to ensure that once sperm meets egg an investigation by the religious/state authorities will find out which commandments have been violated for every birthfail.

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  56. Anonymous12:41 PM

    If men could get pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament. It would be free, available 24/7 to whom ever needed it and there would be endless commercials on television promoting it. Abortion and birth control clinics would sponsor pro football teams and NASCAR races. There would be no discussion about "late term," "saving a (man's) life," "birth control" etc. It would not be a political issue. Heck, it would probably be added to the bill of rights!

    This woman comes across as very stupid and unprepared, but the truth of the matter is that this is news because affordable and convenient birth control and abortion are issues that men are all over, even though it is - ironically -not their issue.

    As Bretta said, the impregnating man is not a part of this equation.

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  57. Doubting Thomas - I'm so sorry for the violent, horrifying abuse and pain you experienced and thankful you've recovered to the point of being able to share your story. Your voice is valuable. Namaste.

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  58. Anonymous12:47 PM

    Doubting Thomas,

    Your story is a shocking one and makes me cry for the experience you had to endure. I am profoundly grateful to you for sharing it. There are no words that I can muster that would sufficiently CURSE the men who did that to you.

    You have my deepest respect for surviving.

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  59. Anonymous12:48 PM

    Anonymous said...

    To those who wonder why this woman allowed herself to get pregnant for the fourth time - I would imagine that access to reliable birth control is nearly as difficult for her as access to medical care.

    As for why did she choose to have sex - don't even go there unless you ask the same question of men.
    ***************
    Its up to the woman to prevent a pregnancy, men are NOT going to do it for the most part and women get stuck with the kids...that being said, why didn't she use BC or after her last kid get her tubes tied?
    Village idiot about describes this woman.
    The fundy's don't get it, practice Birthcontrol or "Safe sex" and then there are no abortions for them to birth about. If this woman couldn't keep her legs closed and to dumb to use Birthcontrol she should of gotten spayed!

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  60. Some have been troubled by this particular statement of mine in my post: "the fact that there were NO medical professionals involved raises questions concerning whether or not individual women should be trusted to have the clarity of thought to terminate their pregnancies without a medical consultation."

    However I did not intend for it to be interpreted as if I myself have any such concerns, only that this incident provides an example which can be used by the pro-life movement to attempt to make this drug much harder, if not impossible, to obtain.

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  61. Anonymous12:54 PM

    ru-486 isn't indicated for advanced pregnancies. This case would make a good anecdote for requiring a script, if it wasn't indicated for her.

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  62. Anonymous12:55 PM

    Sex education. We talk about it at our dinner table & hopefully my child will never be uninformed and scared enough to do what this young lady chose. What a sad story.
    Hugs to you Doubting Thomas - I hope you write a book about your strength and perseverance.

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  63. Boggles the mind....a sister calling the police on her sister..so much for blood is thicker than water. The only person you can control is yourself...let's all remember this.

    If abortion is ever outlawed....you an be certain the Indian Nations will open up clinics on their reservations...probably even give you a ride to and from the clinic.

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  64. Oh Doubting Thomas, the first parts of your story had me in tears. I am so sorry for what you went through. Now I am waiting with anticipation to hear the rest of your birth story....

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  65. Anonymous12:59 PM

    Let's not be too harsh on Jennie, especially if we're not from Pocatello!

    She's obviously not a practicing Mormon, which in Idaho means estrangement from a means of support (the church) that would certainly help out in many ways. She may very well have been excommunicated from the LDS church, which is a big deal, for her lifestyle choices - which may not have been all hers to make.

    She could only go to a distant sibling for help, and no one in the community itself would have been willing to do such a thing. Pocatello is not all that big a place in the world, and it's a little isolated from mainstream America, especially the coastal version. The Church Rules there, and if they don't like you or what you are doing, tough.

    The attitude of the state workers in refusing to help her says it all: she's on the shit list of the church so she gets nothing, regardless of any state regulations saying otherwise.

    As to a local clinic, not on your life! PP would find it impossible to buy or rent a facility to meet their needs, as well as a public sector actively making the entire startup process even more difficult at every step.

    We can only guess at why she only receives child support for one of her three children. Young Mormon women who have sex before marriage are not all that likely to be able to get child support: after all, 'you' had sex, it's 'your' fault, so 'you' deal with it. Such thinking is not outdated within the LDS faith, and men can be held not responsible (she enticed me, she made me do it, ad infinitum). Once down that path, she most likely couldn't climb out of it - which means more exploitation.

    Education? Most likely not much at all, and certainly no sex ed. So, not much to work with, either in knowledge or decision making. Over the counter birth control may not be available either: wouldn't want to give the young'uns any ideas now, would we?

    There is so much that is wrong with this case, this young woman, that I really don't know where to begin. While not a member, I've know a number of Mormons in my life, and many of them are honorable folk. Some are more liberal than others, for whom church doctrine is to be publicly acknowledged, privately ignored. Others, well, let's just say life for Gentiles on their turf is not easy, and former members are trusted even less. Jennie's best hope in life is to entirely leave Idaho for good, and restart somewhere else.

    Mitt Romney is one of the hardcore, and we could see more of this if he was to be elected. You could certainly kiss Roe v. Wade goodbye if he can help it. He's already been given his instructions from the elders, so his mission is clear. It's just not what the rest of us want to hear however.

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  66. Anonymous1:11 PM

    I work with people who are addicted to drugs. Many of these women end up pregnant again and again. It's not that they are planning to get pregnant, or don't know about preventing pregnancy. Men and women who are using drugs and/or alcohol really aren't thinking long term and just their immediate satisfaction. If they are wanting sex, they will have sex without regard as to birth control, or even much thought about who their sexual partner is.

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  67. Anonymous1:13 PM

    Jesus, I cannot believe the judgment dripping from your post. Who the fuck are you to decide whether this woman deserves to make this decision for herself or not? I'm shocked at what I read, and not in a good way.

    You need to seriously consider the ramifications of what you're advocating. Either you believe a woman should have control over her own body or you don't...but don't pretend as though you do believe in choice and then peddle that analysis of this particular case.

    It honestly feels like a betrayal to read those words on this blog.

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  68. Doubting Thomas...WOW!

    Speechless.

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  69. Anonymous1:30 PM

    I'm more than a little curious how any adult views someone else's abortion as negatively impacting them in any real way.

    If you are a member of the mega-elite, you are harmed by abortion because it serves to reduce the population of labor (unskilled, uneducated is okay) to serve your needs.

    The Catholic church felt it was similarly harmed by abortion because they wanted new members so badly that they bulldozed folks (like native-American Indians) into converting.

    Are these valid reasons for banning abortions? Of course not. Not for the 99%.

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  70. AJ Billings1:35 PM

    As we all know, it's too easy to have a condom break, or miss a pill by mistake, or have some other factor involved.

    So easy for sanctimonious types to say "should have kept her legs closed". Old people in particular forget just how intense the need for sex and comfort can be in the young.

    Stop blaming her for irresponsible behavior if you don't know what the facts are!

    Obviously she's living in poverty, and may have never received accurate information on pregnancy prevention and treatment options. Given that her family is Mormon, what else would you expect?

    Schools in Idaho probably don't teach birth control, and she doesn't even have access to a computer to research this issue.

    This case brings to mind the woman in Illinois who GOT ARRESTED for falling down the stairs while pregnant!!

    That's right ladies, if the local Taliban decide you attempted a miscarriage by tripping over a kid's toy, be prepared to have your doctor call the police

    http://tinyurl.com/6hg5jao

    Oh, and the Taliban in Utah is considering the same type of laws

    http://www.democracynow.org/2010/3/3/pregnant_women_utah

    http://tinyurl.com/6hg5jao

    In 1964 President Johnson ordered armed troops into Mississippi to FORCE school integration because the states were ignoring the law.

    I'm convinced the Supreme court needs to strike down draconian laws that states are enacting to force poor women into taking such measures.

    Imagine if this woman lived in England, Canada, Germany, Japan, or other countries labeled "socialist" by the American Taliban?

    Finding herself pregnant she could have gotten free medical checkups by doctors, food supplements, been offered free, accurate and safe treatment to either terminate, or have the baby adopted.

    Any wonder why a lone, poor, probably uninformed ignorant woman in fear living in Mormon country did what she did?

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  71. Anonymous1:37 PM

    My thoughts are that birth control should always be used if you don't want a child. While it may not be 100% effective, at least it's close. I myself don't like abortion, but I would never tell anyone what they can do with their own bodies.

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  72. Anonymous1:37 PM

    I don't think we should pander to the anti-abortion folks' wish to be called pro-life.

    We are ALL pro-life. No one likes abortions. They are done only when all other options are far worse. Just like we kill in battle only when all other options have been exhausted. The issue is choice. Are you for it or against it?

    So I make a point of saying pro-choice and anti-choice. Too bad if they don't like it.

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  73. Anonymous1:39 PM

    11:03

    I assume they have condoms in Idaho.

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  74. Anonymous1:41 PM

    I just love the judgemental attitude in many of these comments. There are cases where birth control fails, no one method is one hundred percent reliable.
    Why is there no health care clinics nor counselling available to her?
    One would think, if Walmart can build a store in every square mile across the world, that each city or town, no matter the size, can have at least ONE clinic that a woman can go to for help.

    She was depserate, it was a painful decision to make, and I'm reserving any judgement whatsoever.

    As a mother of three, it's not something I would normally condone, but she did the best she could under dire circumstances. She needs help and support and education.

    But every cause needs it's lightening rod (Terry Schiavo, e.g.). I'm sure someone's going to latch onto this story, and make it their business and sworn duty to eviscerate this woman, while the father sits in prison with three squares a day and not a worry in the world.

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  75. Anonymous1:48 PM

    If sanctimonious pols and church folk couldn't prohibit alcohol use in the 19th and early 20th centuries, what makes them think they'll keep a desperate woman from terminating an unwanted pregnancy by any means necessary?

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  76. 11:59 Anon.
    You nailed it. This is life for many women. They pick the most horrible men, and then hope it they get pregnant they'll stay. Violence and disorder define their lives. A crisis hits, they'll pull themselves together for a short period and then lapse into chaos again. They do love their children, but are ineffective in following through. Idaho has been a state who has gone after planned parenthood and medical care, so medical care in rural areas is hard to find.

    This woman is a poster child for why I've continued to fight for abortion rights AND agencies like Planned Parenthood. She is, by no means, unique.

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  77. Anonymous1:56 PM

    She doesn't seem like the brightest bulb but obviously she knows where babies come from. Her being so irresponsible after having 3 already is just insane. Desperation leads to tragic ends.

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  78. Anonymous1:57 PM

    Doubting Thomas, your story is shocking, I'm so sorry you had to live it, but grateful you survived. You should write a book.

    I had an attack by more than one, and my attack did result in pregnancy. I did have an abortion. Five months later I was pregnant with my husband. If I had not had that abortion, my beautiful perfect child would not even exist. I dare someone to even try to tell me I did the wrong thing.

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  79. Doubting Thomas -- I'm SO, so sorry for what you've had to endure! I think your "Chuckie" is very fortunate to have such a strong Mother. If I was in a room with you, I'd be honored to give you a huge hug.

    I can't imagine the agony you've suffered, but this quote from my dear friend, author Andrew Harvey, may give you more hope for a brighter future:

    “If you're really listening, if you're awake to the poignant beauty of the world, your heart breaks regularly. In fact, your heart is made to break; its purpose is to burst open again and again so that it can hold evermore wonders.”

    PEACE be with you my fellow-traveler. And THANK YOU for sharing your very-moving story.

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  80. Anonymous1:59 PM

    I understand how birth control can be ineffective for some people (I got pregnant taking the pill religiously and my mother got pregnant AFTER a tubal) but 3 kids at 32 and pregnant again?????

    Uhhhh, maybe instead of dating and having fun you should be trying to BETTER YOUR LIFE LADY. But I am not one to judge another person as I do not know them or where they came from.

    I will say that my best friend is 27, married to a man who can only get work off shore on boats as a cook, has 3 kids under 4. They're all good people. He's been in jail twice though (first wasnt his fault and second he was going through serious crap and decided to drive drunk). He also pays child support for 2 other kids.

    But, despite all that, no one intheir family complains. He goes to work for his family, she stays home alone for two weeks at a time. They live off of 40K/yr, could spend their money better but no one's suffering. Shes also enrolled in online college.

    You walk into their apartment and youd think you were in a dumpster, shit everywhere, walls nasty. But pure joy lives there. The kids all love each other, there may be shouting but there's mostly laughs.

    Everyone goes through hard times. It's imperative that people not be of the mentality that other people WILL definitely bail them out. We've become too welfare-dependent and it's ruining the country.

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  81. Anonymous2:04 PM

    I look forward to the day when all those opposed to abortion be required to adopt at least one unwanted child born to a mother of that persons race from somewhere in the US. All men and women opposed to abortion must be required to pay a tax that would pay for the support of unwanted children. It comes down to ...if you oppose abortion, don't have one. You do not have the right to rule over someone's LEGAL right to choose abortion.

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  82. ThanksABunchJohn2:11 PM

    O/T

    Well, THAT didn't take long... Palin is vowing her undying love for Tim Tebow. (At least the Broncos are losing right now...)

    http://politics.blogs.foxnews.com/2011/12/18/palins-pick-not-presidential

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  83. Doubting Thomas: I am in awe of you. What a survivor you are! You found the strength to survive many blows any one of which would have been too much for many of us. I'm not sure I could have risen to the occasion.
    You are also a powerful storyteller. I hope you have the strength to keep telling your story. It can bring some reality to the debate.
    That said, I'm heart-sick at the pain, the callus indifference, and the lack of support you went through.

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  84. Anonymous2:27 PM

    this today:

    PALIN GUILTY OF MAJOR ETHICS ACT VIOLATION: MUST RETURN $386,000 IN CONTRIBUTIONS

    http://www.nationofchange.org/palin-guilty-major-ethics-act-violation-must-return-386000-contributions-1324227646

    HA HA HA

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  85. Anonymous2:47 PM

    Well, having just gone through an RU486 procedure with my teen daughter a couple of weeks back, I think I can offer some insight.

    My almost 20 year old daughter found herself pregnant after a condom slipped off. She was irresponsible in that she hadn't kept track of her periods adequately enough to know she might be fertile or to know she might be pregnant until several weeks had passed.

    On Thanksgiving, she told me she had taken 8 pregnancy tests and each one was positive. My feelings were running the gamut of fear and sadness. She had pretty much made up her mind to terminate using the pill. She had researched all options before she even told me of the situation.

    The following week, she was scheduled to go to a clinic up north to get it started. The day of, she told me she didn't have enough money and was just going to wait. This freaked me out. I am of the belief that if this is the route you plan to travel, get on the road immediately, don't wait. I came up with the balance from my mortgage money.

    The process was relatively easy. She took the first pill while I cried outside in the car over the loss of my grandchild to be. I dried my eyes before she came out and she never knew how heartbroken I was over her choice.

    The second pill was taken 24 hours later and the process started full force shortly after. She bled like crazy and cramped like the dickens but it was all over relatively fast. My daughter was six weeks, not four months and I was sickened by the entire process she went through.

    See, when I was 15 and a virgin, I was date raped and became pregnant. I was in such denial, I was nearly 11 weeks when I finally figured it out. I had a suction abortion and until two weeks ago, I thought I had dealt with it emotionally. As I learned thirty six years later, you never fully resolve it even if you think you do.

    In any case, I am grateful that my daughter was able to do what was best for her. I am grateful it was available and safe, I am grateful it was only a 40 minute drive away and I am grateful it was only $300. My own mother had a back alley abortion in the 1940s that nearly killed her. When I was a young adult, she told me about it and made me promise to always work to protect legal and safe abortion because desperate women will do desperate things legal or not.

    That being said, it should remain legal and safe. However, precautions should be in place to ensure that a four month old fetus isn't aborted without medical care. What this girl in the story did was crazy. Not only for the child she aborted but for her own health and safety. She can buy condoms at the local drug store or she can have her sister send them to her as well. There is no reason she should be so young with three kids out of wedlock and another unplanned pregnancy.

    When my daughter had her procedure a couple of weeks ago, she had to return a week later to make sure it was complete AND to put her on birth control.

    The system is failing and it failed this girl in the story. Someone failed to tell her how to protect herself from unwanted pregnancy and then it failed to help her resolve the problem in a safe and appropriate way. Tragic really.

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  86. Anonymous2:49 PM

    @10:42: This woman did some crazy-ass stuff to bring on an abortion. Do the anti-choice people not realise that many, many women will resort to doing the same things in order to have an abortion?


    My understanding is that this is exactly why the court ruled as it did in the first place. FRankly, I think the Courts did a pretzel to come up with a constitutional right to an abortion. I think it's either a medical (states rights) issue or a criminal (states rights) issue. But they found the right in the controversial "penumbra." I am not addressing whether this was a good thing or not - just that that's what happened. IT's debatable whether it's a good thing for the PC group that what could have been a states issue has been made a federal issue. I don't know the answer.


    But back to what happened - and WHY. It happened because LOTS of women were dying from botched, unsanitary abortions. People forget about that. Heck, I'm almost to retirement and I don't even remember it. By the time it was an issue for my generation, abortion was available (I lived in an urban area of a state where it is still more available).

    So the first time they found excuses and a legal pretzel to find the right to abortion. then things got safer, fewer women were dying, and things got more difficult thanks to the RTL movement. It will be interesting to see what the Supreme court does this time.

    Lucy

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  87. Anonymous2:50 PM

    "...whether or not individual women should be trusted to have the clarity of thought to terminate their pregnancies without a medical consultation."

    You have hit one of the major issues right on the nose, but missed the point.

    Many women, keeping in mind we tend to not have good paying jobs our eduction not withstanding, simply cannot afford doctors.

    In her case she could not even afford to "go" to the doctor.

    Prenatal testing and care costs tens of thousands of dollars in state mandated testing, for things like HIV, Strep B and other issues, much less all the rest of the office visits, test and on and on.

    And then it gets really expensive.

    Also too, if you want a boy friend these days you just about have to let him sleep with you, and most guys are too selfish to wear condoms.

    It sounds like she didn't have enough money to afford birth control pills and feed her two children at the same time.
    So there is another economic issue that hits un and under employed and under paid women harder than men.


    Oh, and about that "clarity of thought" 10 on the Oink Scale.

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  88. Anonymous2:57 PM

    To all the posters here making all kinds of excuses for this woman. such as blaming everything, and everyone else for this stupid woman's behavior:

    No one else made her decisions for her. No one told her to keep getting knocked-up, and having children she knew she couldn't take care of. It was her decision to have children with all those multiple fathers. It was her decision to screw some criminal. Our shitty healthcare, meddling politicians, and religious right nuts, did not make these decisions for her. She is running her own life. If she had made the right decision, and kept her legs crossed, this whole situation could have been avoided. Despite a crummy healthcare system, meddling politicians, etc., not everybody makes the kind of bad decisions this woman has made.

    "I'm disappointed to read all the virulent criticisms of this young woman. She doesn't look big enough to fight off a determined "date". And her mother must have never taught her anything useful. Let's stop blaming her."

    I have to laugh at this comment. This woman was not "fighting off a determined date." She. Put. Out. I blame her, and all the asshole, and possibly absent fathers of her children. This dumb woman had enough information to know about the birds, and the bees, and she sure knew which pills to buy to terminate the pregnancy. I wouldn't be surprised if she has been through this, before.

    "To those who wonder why this woman allowed herself to get pregnant for the fourth time - I would imagine that access to reliable birth control is nearly as difficult for her as access to medical care."

    Abstinence isn't hard to access.

    "As for why did she choose to have sex - don't even go there unless you ask the same question of men."

    I do ask the same question of the men. I also don't care why they did it. They were selfish, and irresponsible. This woman is 32 years old, and still acting like a teenager. Time to grow up! I have no sympathy for this bitch.

    P.S. to the posters telling people not to judge this woman: This dumb woman chose to tell her story to the media, therefore making it our business. We are free to judge her.

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  89. Anonymous2:59 PM

    Anonymous said..
    My body, my choice full stop.
    10:47 AM

    Absolutely.

    If the fathers or others want to become decisions makers then they have to accept their responsibility for the care of the fetus and the child that they have caused to be born.

    To expect women to be celibate but men to not be celibate is moronic in the extreme.
    Therefore we live in a nation of morons, becasue that is how our laws look at the issue of women's pregnancies.

    Men's pregnancies are viewed in a completely different light.
    If they don't get caught they are freed from responsibility.

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  90. Anonymous3:03 PM

    Very sad to see you question the integrity of the victims here.
    I guess we agree to disagree on this. No way would I blame her.
    It may leave a bitter taste in your mouth, but your statement: "raises questions concerning whether or not individual women should be trusted to have the clarity of thought" to make their own medical decisions...really leaves a bitter taste in mine, as a woman.
    When was the last time you were faced with the heart breaking choice of terminating or not?
    Oh, that's right...never.

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  91. Doubting Thomas, Thank you for sharing some of your pain, hard to imagine what you have been through. Sending blessings your way.

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  92. Anonymous3:08 PM

    Why can't all this be handled in a sane and sensible way like Canada does it? You bunch of fucking Neanderthal bible thumping cocksuckers. You deserve all the misery you get for being so fucking stupid.

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  93. There is a petition online for Jennie: http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/drop-the-unlawful-termination-charges-against-jennie-lmccormack/

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  94. Anonymous3:29 PM

    Anonymous Anonymous said...

    21 weeks/5 months pregnant...a loss at that time is usually considered a stillbirth, not a miscarriage. This woman is VERY lucky she did not bleed to death.

    I'm struck by the contrast- this past week the Duggar family held a memorial for the child they lost at about the same point in pregnancy.

    The woman in this story disgusts me, quite frankly. She has three kids and she's in her 30s. It's not like this was some fresh faced high school student who really had no idea how pregnant she was- this woman knew full well she was well into her second trimester, I believe. She got her sister to get the pills because she knew no clinic would abort a fetus only weeks from viability unless the mother's life was in danger.

    Never mind the issue concerning her getting pregnant in the first place. So she's got three little ones at home, is the sole caregiver and support for them- yet she sees fit to have unprotected sex with a criminal, and possibly even bringing him around her children?

    I'm sorry, but her righteous mommy act makes me want to vomit. She is careless, stupid, and instead of getting the FREE BIRTH CONTROL available from her county, she endangered her life and risked having her children find their mother's body in a pool of her own blood with a dead baby on the floor. There's "irresponsible" and there's "tie your tubes already, selfish witch".
    11:18 AM



    You are making assumptions that are probably incorrect.

    If free birth control was available, she probably would have accessed it. Maybe the boy friend was bringing home the bacon in exchange for a roof and sex.

    How can she get her tubes tied with no money, etc?

    So much of this issue comes back to the availability of heath care, especially women's health care, jobs, and the opportunity to earn a living wage, as well as safe (like in churches maybe???) child care for working moms.

    And men being responsible for their own children.

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  95. Anonymous3:31 PM

    Anon @ 2:50:

    Also too, if you want a boy friend these days you just about have to let him sleep with you, and most guys are too selfish to wear condoms.

    __________

    Well, hell, if it's that bad, don't have boyfriends.

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  96. Anonymous3:32 PM

    2:04 PM
    I agree with your adoption statement.

    You know, people still give children up if one parent has mental health problems.

    You know mental health issues can be more likely to also effect childen?

    Did you know that a high percentage of serial killers are adopted males?

    http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1737667,00.html

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  97. Anonymous3:34 PM

    Before anyone judges this woman, please remember: you can not get birth control pills, a diaphragm, or an IUD if you can not afford to see a doctor. You can not use a condom if the man refuses to put it on and wear it properly, and/or if it does not perform properly. If you ARE lucky enough to have birth control devices, you must remember that they do not always work. Also, there are many prescription and over-the-counter drugs that will counter-act the effectiveness of birth control pills. Add to all of this the fact that birth control pills do not work 100 percent of the time on 100 percent of the women. They make them much weaker than they used to because the stronger ones are too dangerous to take. Please, no more judgments about birth control: we do not know the facts.

    As for her paltry child support for the existing children, how do we know whether there was a DA who was either willing or available to take her case to court? How do we know whether the father of her other children had lost his job, was under-employed, had poverty-level wages, and/or could not pay more (or perhaps anything at all) at this time? We don't. Let's not judge her or him on this aspect, either.

    We live in a country that now pays most of its employees wages slightly higher than serf level. Forming a healthy family unit is now an economic impossibility for most Americans. It is economics, not gay marriage, that is now destroying American families. This is not the type of 'exceptionalism' that will ever produce a strong nation.

    This is a very sad story. But until many thousands of women become imprisoned for making their own reasoned choices about family planning, the rest of the country may be unable to wake up and see the stupidity of promoting legislation that outlaws such personal issues as abortion and birth control. But then again, maybe not: the vatican seems to have an obsession about all of this, and it has a bottomless pit of money to spend behind the scenes, on both hate media and charlatan politicians. They are greatly aided by so-called christians who are far more obsessed with controlling the intimate lives of others (about which the Bible says nothing) than of living a Christ-like life themselves (which is the sole focus of the entire Bible).

    Very sadly, the entire right wing now seems to excel at nothing other than sheer meanness. By expressing their vitriol politically (and legislatively), they are destroying millions of lives and tens of thousands of families.

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  98. Anonymous3:51 PM

    How can I even judge this? If I were in her position, I might have done the same thing.

    We can't stop women from making love. There is sheer loneliness and fear in this lady's life. I hope the best for her. Few can abort with ease.

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  99. Anonymous4:08 PM

    I have a daughter in her Junior year of college. Before she left for college three years ago I gave her the address and phone number to the nearest Planned Parenthood. I also gave her a box of condoms. I didn't want my daughter with some fool who tried to talk her into going bareback because of the moment or selfishness.

    When she left she was a virgin. She came back for break and had sex using the condoms I gave her. I think there is no shame that as her mother, it's my job to tell and provide this info to my daughter. That is part of being a parent. Sex is part of life, education is the key to unwanted pregnancies. My daughter has since gotten the shot. Thanks to Planned Parenthood, she is lucky to have that available to her. Some women are not. If my daughter should ever require an abortion I will support HER CHOICE. Who are we to judge.

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  100. Anonymous4:34 PM

    Lucy: my understanding of Roe v Wade is that it's not a medical issue but a privacy issue. I.e., that a woman has the right to make this decision herself, privately, without oversight by MDs or government.

    That what Obama said too: that this very difficult decision with lots of moral complexity should be made by the individual and not some bureaucrat or official. And he added that he has never heard of a woman making this decision lightly, or without extensive thought. The controversial nature of this life-altering decision makes privacy regarding it all the more important.

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  101. Anonymous4:35 PM

    I have very big differences with the Right to Life crowd. They don't want abortion but they don't want sex education and they don't want birth control available, the two things that are the biggest inhibitors of abortion. (not to mention preventing STD's) Then they don't want to help take care of the resulting babies that they would force on women. They are hypocrites in the worst degree.

    But while I support a woman's right to decide for herself if she can handle having a baby, I also support that right for a man. And that is where I have a difference with some radical right to choose people.

    They are also hypocritical in their own way. With a battle cry of "A woman has the right to decide what is best in her life" they declare that no one has the right to tell a woman what to do when it comes to pregnancy. But they have no problem telling men that even if it's not right in their life when a partner gets pregnant, they have no choice in the matter of becoming a parent, because that choice is up to the woman. If she decides to have the baby, you are responsible for it until it is 18, no matter what it does to your life. A man doesn't have a choice of...."Oh, this isn't convenient for me right now, I'm trying to finish school, or I already have 4 kids and can't afford to raise another one, or even, "Have the baby and I'll take it and raise it if you don't want it." They are at the whim of a woman who may be manipulative, controlling, vindictive, or looking for a sucker. A man doesn't get the choice to say, I'm not ready to be a dad at this time, he's forced into it. And if he resists, he's called a deadbeat.

    On one hand the radicals say, a woman is a strong independent being who can make choices for herself, but on the other side, they say, ohh women are helpless and need a men around to help her financially for a choice she decided without any input from the man affected. If a man forced a woman into a situation like this, there would be a catterwalling like you've never seen. As the right to choose side of the equation is quick to point out, it takes two to Tango and men should also be responsible for birth control too. I agree. But I also know more than one woman who has gone off an agreed on birth control to get pregnant without letting the man know.

    This side of the equation also has no problem with a woman getting herself impregnated through in vitro fertilization and raising a child with no help from a father. In fact it's the only way a man can give sperm to a woman and take no responsibility with the resulting child. But let him stick his penis in her and all of a sudden the responsibility is all his. Even though there is no difference in the child that is born. It's a twisted and sad way to look at procreation.

    So tell me, are women strong and independent enough to make their own choices about having kids? or are they pathetic creatures who can't take care of the decisions they make in life? And why don't young men get a chance to decide if they are ready to be fathers or not? They have as much to lose as a woman as far as how their life will go. In fact many never get the chance to be involved in their kids' life. They are just considered a money machine.

    Rick

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  102. M Green4:39 PM

    When I was a 15 year old virgin, I was raped by a stranger. It was violent and horrid and violated me in every way.

    My father suddenly couldn't look at me. I cried as much for my ruined family as I did from the terrifying nightmares which were so real I could almost smell the putrid stink of motor oil and body odor again.

    43 days after I was raped, I felt a large lump on the abdomen of my skinny frame. I had not even considered pregnancy. I had not even had my period a year yet and had an irregular cycles. My mother sobbed on the way to the doctor's knowing what news would come.

    As my shocked pediatrician slid an ultrasound wand over my stomach, her eyes widened and she murmured to the nurse something I didn't understand but my mother the former nurse did and choked out a sob upon hearing the doctor say "it's dual. mono chorionic".

    I was pregnant with identical twins as the result of the rape.

    My mind could not process what my body already was. My mother made an appointment at a clinic the next day. I said I needed to think about it, she said there was nothing to think about. All I could think of was my own biological father- a drug dealer who was in federal prison. My mother left him while pregnant with me and remarried the man I called "dad". But it kept rolling around in my mind: what if I had been punished for the sins of MY biological father?

    My mother bodily moved me to the car and took me to the clinic. I kept telling myself to just do it, then mom will stop crying and dad will stop drinking and looking at me like I'm suddenly a stranger.

    Except I could not. As I was being asked if I wanted to undergo the procedure that would terminate my pregnancy and my mother looked at me expectantly, I found myself saying "no. I do not". My mother tried to speak over me and shrilly yelled "she does! She does want it! Just DO it please!" but this clinic staff member was ethical and understanding. She told my mother they would not do it under coercion- it had to be ME who said yes.

    That night my parents screamed, cried, and threw things. Behavior I'd never witnessed. I heard through the walls that my father drunkenly slurred "I can't even LOOK at her, my little girl".

    Over the next 3 months our family was broken and I felt more distance between us the bigger I got. My mother was torn between telling people I had been raped or letting them think I was a slut. As my 5th month started, I was withdrawn from school to homeschool. I had high blood pressure from the pregnancy and the stress of feeling like my choice broke our family.

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  103. M Green4:41 PM

    Pt 2

    As my 8th month closed in, I was a beached marble on a string. I had 8 pounds of baby around my middle, but the rest of me was still a size 4. I only left the house for the doctor. At my 30 week appointment, my doctor asked if I'd gotten everything I needed for the babies. I stared and blankly told her I wasn't sure if my parents would let me keep the babies- or sure if I even wanted to. She called a social worker from the hospital where the babies would be born and said my family needed a sit down ASAP.

    That afternoon a kind woman sat down at the foot of my bed and told me whatever I wanted to do was ok, and if I needed to I could even wait until the babies were born to see how I felt.

    She sat down with my mother next and in harsh tones explained what my mother was doing to me was emotional neglect and abuse- at the time when I most needed her. (I was also stressed due to the upcoming trial of my rapist, but a last minute plea agreement meant there would be no trial- thank God) I strained to listen to my mother talking to the social worker. I heard "I can't love those babies. I can't". And the social worker said "you will if you have to".

    That night we all sat on my bed, mom dad and me, and haltingly tried to talk things out. My father admitted the powerlessness he felt, the shame he felt in not protecting me. My mother apologized for her distance. I told them honestly I didn't know what to do.

    One month to the day of that conversation, I gave birth at age 16 to twin sons, Caleb and Nicholas. They weighed a hefty (for preemie twins) 5lb 2oz and 4lb 9.2oz

    I loved them instantly. I knew God had seen fit to make them just mine, not "his".

    They are strong, tall men now. They have been the joy of my life. Their presence in our family was transforming. My dad drove me home from the hospital wearing a shirt he'd purchased in the gift shop- a sweatshirt which read "someone special calls me grandpa". Only he had taken a marker and added a 2 in front of "someone" and an s to the end of the word. "2 someones special call me grandpa".

    The reason I took the time to tell you all this is to wrap it up with this: I made the choice I wanted to make. I chose an emotionally wrenching and physically grueling pregnancy over an emotionally wrenching and physically grueling abortion.

    But if I had chosen an abortion, I wouldn't have been any less right or wrong. It was my choice. And I would never judge another for choosing a different path.

    The woman in this story CHOSE not to spend 2 dollars on a condom and then was forced to spend 2 hundred on illegally obtained pills which could well have killed her. The issue with this woman is that she made many poor CHOICES- which led to her choice to induce a still birth and put that tiny body out like it was trash.

    I support every woman's right to choose whether or not to carry a child. I do not support selfish, in the moment choices made with no consideration for your children or your health. And how does she live on her own with just $250 per month? I strongly feel something is missing from this story.

    Thank you all for listening. Sorry for all the time. This is my first time to comment here.

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  104. Gryphen, I did not mean to hi-jack your reply board. But I am happy you let me post my life story to show both sides of the abortion coin I have lived.

    To all that were touched by my life, and replied. Thank You for your kind words.

    My son is 30 years old, and I am 50, so lots of water has passed under those bridges of my life. Since those many years ago, I have healed and tried to help others.

    It is distressing to see so many blame and point fingers at a woman so poor, that she could not afford birth control, nor was there Planned Parenthood available to help her.

    What has happened to compassion for our fellow man (and women)? Instead, we blame the victims. Victims of a bad economy, poor education and Conservative ideals. Conservatives and Christians only care about a fetus until it born, then blame the very same baby for being a "drain on welfare and society". They shouldn't be able to have it both ways.

    Given that (a) Christianity is the predominate religion in America and (b) professed Christians make up the vast majority of the Republican and Tea Party base, I find it odd that at several debates the crowd has cheered death over executions and at least one person screamed, “YEAH!” at “let him die” over a proverbial uninsured man. I wonder if Jesus, whom these people claim to follow, would be loudly cheering executions and encouraging the uninsured to just die.

    Once again I ask, What has happened to basic human compassion?

    I think we would do things very differently in this country if we could all tap into real, nonjudgmental compassion for others. To me, compassion means admitting to ourselves that other people’s experiences are not the same as ours, and that they still matter. This is actually quite difficult, and I struggle with it myself.

    What if we all worked a bit harder to understand how big social problems like poverty, racism or domestic violence impact people’s lives? What would it be like if we took a walk in their shoes? For those of us who’ve faced some of these hard situations, we’re still not off the hook. Our task is to realize that our way of dealing isn’t the only way.

    There is actually research that suggests that compassion causes a chemical reaction in our bodies which makes our desire to be compassionate grow stronger. All we need to do is exercise it! Imagine if everyone in your community was just a little more compassionate. Albert Einstein had it right when he said:

    “A human being…experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest…. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures.”

    I’m busting out of that prison. Will you come with me?

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  105. Anonymous4:49 PM

    Everyone who is thinking negatively about this woman because she is a single parent of 3 children. She CHOSE to give birth and to raise these 3 children! From the story, we don't know if she has been married before. We know one child is receiving child support. Perhaps the other two have the same father, or maybe they don't. There is a lot of judging about the woman who has not walked away from her responsibility - but withholding judgement of the man/men who have conceived children who they will not/cannot support.

    She knew that she would not be receiving financial support from the father of the last child, because he went to jail after she conceived a child with him.

    I think the problem with the story is the lack of medical services -- no one should be require to travel out of state to receive medical services.

    Are wealthier women better people because they can afford to receive appropriate, timely medical care whereas a woman living in poverty acts in desparation with the resources she has?

    No one would be judging the wealthier woman who aborted her 4th pregnancy, because you would never be reading about it. Doesn't mean wealthier women don't find themselves in similar situations.

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  106. Anonymous4:55 PM

    "She got her sister to get the pills because she knew no clinic would abort a fetus only weeks from viability unless the mother's life was in danger."

    Not true. Her fetus was just 21 weeks along. Second trimester abortions are not only legal but very safe. They continued to be offered LEGALLY in many cities in the US and are performed up to 19 - 21 weeks gestation.

    If this woman had had the money for a second trimester abortion (they can be much more expensive than abortions performed in the first trimester) and access to a city where she could obtain this procedure, none of us would be having this discussion and medical privacy laws would protect her from all of our judgments and opinions. :)

    Second trimester abortions are a two day procedure and you have to either be able to have someone drive you back to the clinic on the second day, when the actual surgery is performed, or you need to be able to stay over in a hotel or with friends in the city where the abortion clinic is. Putting women through these hoops for this very much desired procedure (the clinics are full of women wanting these procedures) is what led to this woman's unfortunate situation and the entire world prying into her life.

    Related - some here have said "We are all pro life and nobody would WANT to have to have an abortion." This sets up a false equivalency which I feel I have to point out. Many of us do NOT believe that life begins before expulsion from the womb. Medically speaking, the fetus is still a parasite, dependent on its mother's body to survive. Do I think my intestinal parasites deserve independent life outside my body? No. :)

    So go easy on lumping all of us into the camp that believes that a fetus is "alive" in the sense that it trumps the woman's life in any way, when medically, it is just a parasite. Harsh but medically true, folks.

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  107. Anonymous4:57 PM

    @3:29pm

    I'm not the OP but I agree with him/her.

    I am in a neighboring county and this woman has been all over the news. I know for a fact she CAN indeed get birth control/condoms even if she didn't have the money to see a doctor. It's not like there are places on every street corner. BUT there is more than one place she can go for free and get birth control.

    I also know she is within a two mile radius of MANY places where she could have cheaply purchased prophylactics. Certainly at a fraction of the cost she paid for the pills.

    As for you and others who say what if she DID get condoms and the man refused to wear it? Simple. Don't have intercourse.

    I don't mean to sound harsh. I am just so tired of seeing these women who have children that love and need them let their behavior be indicated by a man who really cares nothing for them.

    We need to empower these ladies long, long before they will do anything to get or keep a no good deadbeat.

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  108. Doubting Thomas, my heart goes out to you. You have a powerful story that everyone needs to hear. Your story needs to be told to Congress and the military,and to anyone who is willing to tell it to others. Your story is needed so that women can retain the right to choose and if they choose abortion that it is protected, legal and can be paid for by public health and private insurance! God bless you!

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  109. Anonymous5:17 PM

    You are making assumptions that are probably incorrect.

    If free birth control was available, she probably would have accessed it. Maybe the boy friend was bringing home the bacon in exchange for a roof and sex.

    How can she get her tubes tied with no money, etc?
    3:29
    *************
    Condoms are available EVERYWHERE!
    If she birthed her kids SOMEWHERE (not in a barn) she could of had her tubes tied after the last kid.
    She is not a fresh face teen who accidentally did a opps...
    She is nothing but a white trash breeder. I'm surprised she's not on welfare.
    Oh and She is White! She could of SOLD That kid! Know how many white folks want to buy WHITE blond babies?
    Woman close your whore legs or get BC pills!

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  110. I think the Dallas Cowboys Cheerleaders are hot, and so does any other proper god-fearing American.

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  111. Anonymous5:41 PM

    It is simple. No person will ever be able to control a woman's body or her ability to control her reproduction. Pass all the laws you want. You will never be able to control a woman's body. Period.

    ReplyDelete
  112. Anonymous5:43 PM

    Passing laws that diminish the ability for woman to gain access to affordable and accessible care only leads to dead babies in shoe boxes. This is the reality of limiting choice. It isn't pretty is it?

    ReplyDelete
  113. lwtjb5:50 PM

    Wow! I am amazed at the vitriol supposedly liberal feminist women responded to this story. None of you knows anything about this woman's history, her life, what got her to this point. That part of Idaho is home to many RW extremists. Her mother is Mormon. Assume she was raised in that church and all its judgements. If she has to go all the way to Salt Lake (Salt Lake, really?) to get an abortion, what does that tell you about available services? What do you know about what past abuse she may have experienced that shapes her abilities to deal with life? There's the old saw about not judging another until you have walked in their shoes. Think about it.

    ReplyDelete
  114. Anonymous6:13 PM

    "And the fact that there were NO medical professionals involved raises questions concerning whether or not individual women should be trusted to have the clarity of thought to terminate their pregnancies without a medical consultation."

    =======================Sorry Gryph, no time to write a lengthy response, so you DO get called a name. How does paternalistic asshole sound? How about men need to have medical professionals involved before engaging penis?

    ReplyDelete
  115. Anonymous6:21 PM

    I love to ponder moral dilemmas when it is not a black and white situation. It really makes a person examine what they think. Personally, I think the world may be a better place with out any more progeny from this genetic pool. Some people really should not reproduce.

    ReplyDelete
  116. Anonymous6:26 PM

    Wait a minute - SHE is the only one irresponsible? Yeah right, broke, alone with two kids. She has sex for likely a little comfort and pleasure. Did I miss something in the article that says exactly how she became pregnant? Did the condom break? Was she unable to afford the pill (likely)?

    So now we're at what - poor women are deprived of orgasms, too?
    This would be very little different if she had been married and her spouse of the working poor. She still wouldn't have health care, still wouldn't have someone to watch the kids, etc. But many of you, Gryphen included, want to pass judgment. Eff off.

    ReplyDelete
  117. Anonymous6:26 PM

    Rick, if a man doesn't want to have kids then they need to get a vasectomy. No kids period. Problem solved.

    ReplyDelete
  118. Anonymous6:33 PM

    She doesn't seem like the brightest bulb but obviously she knows where babies come from. Her being so irresponsible after having 3 already is just insane. Desperation leads to tragic ends.

    1:56 PM
    ======================
    And evidently you can't add - a-hole

    You don't think a single woman in poverty is desperate, especially since her mother sounds like a harridan. So, she engages in physical intimacy. Whatever bc she was using (perhaps it was the hallowed rhythm method of the RCC. a.k.a. baby roulette?)

    NO one arrested Sanctimonium Santorum for his weird fetal fetish habits.

    ReplyDelete
  119. Anonymous6:36 PM

    I had my first abortion in 1975 ( I had an IUD which malfunctioned - eventually involved in class action suit - but different story). My second was in 1978 (I was advised to take the lowest formula of birth control pill b/c I had a blood clotting issue - not enough hormone, obviously) I had a tubal ligation and husband had vasectomy in 1981.

    Doctors REFUSED do either procedure for 6 years - even though we both BEGGED them to do so, because - they claimed - we were "young, and would change our minds." Both my husband and I knew we did not want to have children, we did what we could, medically, at the time to prevent pregnancy. Those years - from 1975 to 1981 were HELL for both of us...we used birth control, but ended up being the "failure statistics" for all forms of birth control.

    I will never forget the day that we both found doctors that we were able to BEG, and BEG, to approve a tubal for me and vasectomy for husband.

    At that time, it was assumed that, if you were a woman and didn't want kids, you would either change your mind when you "came to your senses" or were a lesbian/crazy. If you were a man and didn't want children, you were crazy or gay. The doctor who did my tubal ligation cautioned me that I would be forever accused of being a slut or a lesbian.

    My points are: my husband was 100% with me with both, as we knew from day 1 we didn't want to have children. I have NEVER regretted the 2 abortions ( I have not even thought about them, to be honest). We are both in our 60s now, childless by choice. We are both teachers, have thousands of "kids" that we were able to teach, but did not have to raise.

    Hooray for R vs W...otherwise my life and husband's life would have been hell.

    ReplyDelete
  120. Chella6:37 PM

    I got pregnant when i was 21 years old. I was in birth control. I had period like bleeding thru the first THREE MONTHS of my pregnant. I was also deeply entangled in a vicious eating disorder. When I found out I was pregnant. I assumed I was 6 weeks along. When I went to have my abortion, and they gave me a sonogram, I found out I was 21 weeks.

    I had a late term abortion in NYC. Since I had eaten NOTHING but sugar free jellow for the entirety of my pregnant, the fetus was incredibly small, and incredibly malnourished. While there was a heart beat, the doctor told me that the odds were I would give birth to a stillborn.

    I did everything right. I religiously practiced birth control, but I was that 1 woman out of 100 who got pregnant, regardless of my perfectly practiced routine.

    I had an eating disorder. I barely knew what I truly looked like, let alone what I would look like 21 weeks pregnant. Had I carried to term, that child would have died. Had I carried to term, I was so sick, so weak, I may have died.

    How dare some people judge others, without having gone thru the same. Abortion is NOT a choice that sits lightly upon the shoulders of the women who choose it. Thankfully I live in NY, where not only was my late term abortion legally allowed, but was covered under Medicaid since I was out of work during this horrible economy.

    So judge me. Go right ahead. But when you find yourself in a similar situation as I was, you'll thank that you have a CHOICE

    ReplyDelete
  121. Anonymous6:38 PM

    Anonymous said...

    I have a daughter in her Junior year of college. Before she left for college three years ago I gave her the address and phone number to the nearest Planned Parenthood. I also gave her a box of condoms. I didn't want my daughter with some fool who tried to talk her into going bareback because of the moment or selfishness.
    (snip)
    4:08
    ****************
    What a awesome comment! Too bad more moms are not like you!
    You daughter will bring in children in this world that she wants and plans for.
    Kudo's to you! More parents should be so awesome!

    ReplyDelete
  122. Anonymous6:41 PM

    Another thing about this story (and others about women having children with multiple men) is that none of them, the women or the men, are having safe sex. A $5 condom would have prevented this pregnancy, too.

    ========================
    Condoms break, you know. $5? When you're living on $250 a month with a couple of kids? And the baby daddy likely wasn't doing much better. Or maybe he brought some food, or gave her some cash to pay the light bill, and maybe she acquiesced to his request to "let him feel her" because, you know, the kids really enjoyed having something other than the Ramen noodles. Or maybe they both thought eh, she just had her period and they were uneducated enough to think she couldn't get pregnant (with the state of sex ed in this country, highly likely).

    But yeah, judge away.

    ReplyDelete
  123. Anonymous6:55 PM

    @ 2:57, FAIL on reading comprehension.
    FAIL on intelligence.
    FAIL on memory, as well.

    She needed to dispose of a longer term fetus than estimated. What's next? Tampon funerals?

    She ended up being prosecuted due to an archaic law on the books, and that's when it hit the front page - so no, it wasn't her choice.

    And ABSTINENCE? Why don't you ask Bitchtol Palin about that one. In case you can't remember, that was when we heard about the only truthful thing that mother has ever said - "Abstinence isn't realistic."

    ReplyDelete
  124. Anonymous6:59 PM

    Gryphen, when you write

    "raises questions concerning whether or not individual women should be trusted to have the clarity of thought" to make their own medical decisions."

    ...your patriarchy is showing. This is a sad situation no matter which side of the issue one is on. I am truly disappointed to see you pull the traditional male judgement crap and make your first move to question the right of women to make their own medical decisions. Please think this through again. I'd like to think you are a better man than that statement would indicate.

    Jessica

    ReplyDelete
  125. Anonymous7:06 PM

    @12:54. If she had to get a doc's appt. Don't you think the same set of circumstances would have kicked in? Get appt. Drive to doc's office (likely same 2 1/2 hours) Anti-choicers would also likely make it two trips. Then she'd have to have an ultrasound - at what cost? Sh could still opt for black market drugs, as these are commonly used drugs for ulcers(?)

    ReplyDelete
  126. Anonymous7:13 PM

    There is a petition online for Jennie: http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/drop-the-unlawful-termination-charges-against-jennie-lmccormack/

    3:15 PM
    ===================The petition is closed - goal of 1,000 they received 1020.

    ReplyDelete
  127. Anonymous7:19 PM

    "And the fact that there were NO medical professionals involved raises questions concerning whether or not individual women should be trusted to have the clarity of thought to terminate their pregnancies without a medical consultation."

    Well, whether you like it or not women always can make the choice of a back alley abortionist. And without Roe VS Wade that is exactly what many women chose.

    Before you wander into the quagmire of deciding what women can handle, you MUST address the question of whether legislation will improve the situation. Unless a law can be PROVEN to reduce the number of women forced to select back alley abortionists, then it is a BAD, vicious, moronic, hopeless law.

    Was this women stupid? You betcha. At 32 years of age, she's too stupid to use birth control, too stupid to know or find out her stage of pregnancy, too stupid to use the local library's internet to find discreet help.

    Is legislation going to fix such stupidity? NO.

    NEVER forget that all the legislation that congress can ever produce will have ZERO impact on wealthy women. Any woman of means can waltz over to Europe or up to Canada for an abortion. Congress can only force POOR women to have babies.

    Here's a sample legislation:
    When a woman is:
    1) too poor for a foreign abortion
    2) too stupid to find a back alley abortionist
    then force that woman to carry the baby to term. (and rake in all those fundie votes for my next election attempt).

    ReplyDelete
  128. Anonymous7:22 PM

    Condoms are available EVERYWHERE!
    If she birthed her kids SOMEWHERE (not in a barn) she could of had her tubes tied after the last kid.
    She is not a fresh face teen who accidentally did a opps...
    She is nothing but a white trash breeder. I'm surprised she's not on welfare.
    Oh and She is White! She could of SOLD That kid! Know how many white folks want to buy WHITE blond babies?
    Woman close your whore legs or get BC pills!

    5:17 PM
    ====================
    Knuckles hurt? Hear that's what happens when they drag on the ground like yours must.

    Missing you ethical gene too, I see.

    Have a kid and "sell it," but don't terminate.
    Seven billion and counting - you fuck.

    If she's a "stupid, white trash breeder" then having more of her genes in the pool is likely not a good idea. And keep yours out too. Make the world a better place, you know?

    ReplyDelete
  129. Anonymous7:39 PM

    and here's one reason this is a federal issue. Because some states are stupid enough to elect someone like misogynist Scott Walker:
    http://motherjones.com/politics/2011/12/scott-walker-next-target-cancer-screenings-women

    Doubting, sorry, this one will hit close to home for you.

    ReplyDelete
  130. Anonymous7:40 PM

    Wealthy women have access to abortion whenever they chose because they can LEAVE the U.S.A.

    Right-to-lifers just HATE that.

    ReplyDelete
  131. Anonymous8:14 PM

    No matter what they do, they cannot stop abortion. The best way to reduce the number of abortions is education (yes..sex ed) and access to health care, health insurance and birth control.

    Did anyone see the Diane Sawyer's report on mothers? I just caught a little but I think they said the U.S. has a dismal rate of infant mortality (was it 50th?). Women without access to health care means pregnancy without access to any medical care until delivery.

    These anti-abortion people don't give a shit about life. They only care about control.

    ReplyDelete
  132. Anonymous8:21 PM

    Doubting Thomas--
    Thank You for sharing your story and comments. Your strength and wisdom are so inspiring. I am in awe. You should write a book.

    Blessings.

    LisanTx

    ReplyDelete
  133. Anonymous8:29 PM

    M Green--Thank you for sharing your story. What you went through boggles the mind. I wish more people could hear your story and similar stories.

    This post has generated the recounting of amazing situations and challenges. I think a book of these stories would be a good fundraiser for PP or other group.

    ReplyDelete
  134. Anonymous8:58 PM

    Missing you ethical gene too, I see.

    Have a kid and "sell it," but don't terminate.
    Seven billion and counting - you fuck.

    If she's a "stupid, white trash breeder" then having more of her genes in the pool is likely not a good idea. And keep yours out too. Make the world a better place, you know?
    7:22 PM
    ******
    Hello Braindead!
    Yes all the fundy fake xtain places want to sell a white baby!
    Also too, I hope your not breeding!
    No a good idea!
    Bless your heart fundy

    ReplyDelete
  135. Will charges be brought against the sister who obtained the drugs for her as well?

    ReplyDelete
  136. Anonymous10:11 PM

    Anonymous @ 6:26

    Your solution is to get a vasectomy? And what if they want to get their life together and then have kids?

    Would you say to a woman who wasn't ready to have kids, get a tubal ligation?

    Look, young adults are at the peak of hormone driven sexual desire. It was good for our ancestors who only lived 30 to 40 years, but now that we live linger and society is more complicated, it isn't practical to have kids as young teenagers. But the biological impulses still are. Many men, not just women, want to get their lives together before they have kids. Putting off sex until your late 20's is unrealistic. Birth control is the best solution of course. But when things go wrong why is it obny the man who is held responsible? Why do women get a pass (a do over)in the form of an abortion or putting the child up for adoption? Why can't a man opt out of parenthood too?

    Rick

    ReplyDelete
  137. Rick -
    I have 6 words for you: "Keep your weenie in your pants." Problem solved.

    ReplyDelete
  138. Anonymous11:35 PM

    Hey Rick, many do. Many give up their parental rights in return for not having to pay child support. Many just disappear.

    ReplyDelete
  139. Anonymous11:38 PM

    @8:58 you misread that post. Try again.

    ReplyDelete
  140. Anonymous11:47 PM

    I see nothing in this woman's story that would justify making RU-486 less available to women.

    I'm sure that there are all kinds of women who drink themselves into a stupor while pregnant and cause a miscarriage (or create a FAS baby), but nobody thinks that's a good enough reason to ban alcohol.

    Why? I suspect because not drinking alcohol would be an inconvenience to men.

    The only reason that this will cause speculation on getting rid of RU-486 is because a man would never have a need for that particular drug.

    I personally do not think that I would have an abortion past eight or nine weeks (unless there was a severe birth defect or danger to my life involved), but it's none of my business what other women do. They come to their own conclusions, no matter what their education or level of intelligence.

    You can't legislate common sense, so don't even try.

    And don't judge her unless you can walk a mile in her shoes. That would mean that not a single man on this planet should try to make a judgement call on this. Sorry, but there are just some things that a man will never be able to understand about being female, and pregnancy, childbirth, and abortion are some of them.

    ReplyDelete
  141. Anonymous12:02 AM

    who's the dumbass who thinks condoms are used for birth control?
    Condoms are only to prevent std's

    ReplyDelete
  142. Anonymous5:55 AM

    First of all as human beings we must have compassion for this mother. She was thinking about the well being of the current family and the impact another baby would have. She must have really felt like she had no choices as she already had bonds with her children. It is sad to think adoption was not a choice for her, but that also can cause upset with her other children not to mention how she would care for herself while pregnant. Compassion is the key to all of this. To a woman who has so few resources, this event is tragic on so many levels. The worst part is while trying to kepp her family together her family got torn apart. The question now is are we as Americans going to toughen up our already jaded hearts and make more laws or are we going to take a more humane approach to this subject and to other women in the same situations? In many ways it is the way our culture has evolved that has left this woman adn other women like her with so few choices. The judgemental views of others on what she should or shouldnot have done.

    ReplyDelete
  143. Nancy6:10 AM

    A case for keeping Planned Parenthood.

    ReplyDelete
  144. Anonymous6:13 AM

    Why can't a man opt out of parenthood too?

    Rick

    10:11 PM

    Vasectomy's are for men "who want to opt out of parenthood". That is the answer to your question.

    ReplyDelete
  145. Anonymous6:48 AM

    I see nothing in this woman's story that would justify making RU-486 less available to women.
    11:47 PM
    =====

    LISTEN UP!!!!! YOU, that's right, YOU have ZERO say in whether wealthy women can make choices about abortion. Wealthy women have the option, which you can NOT control, to go to Europe or Canada.

    So, what your sentence actually means is that you want to make choices for POOR women. And, why, exactly, do you think that you should control POOR women but not wealthy women? WHY?

    I think it's because you are accustomed to spouting your little pro-life spiel without being made to admit that you want to control POOR women. Go ahead with your comfortable little homily, but at least have the courtesy to state your true objective, which is the control of POOR women.

    (Other the other hand, you may be the erratic type that wants to imprison every fertile American female within the borders of the USA because they COULD get an abortion abroad. Pee sticks in every airport, every border crossing? Is that how crazy you are to force your absurd opinions on all women?)

    ReplyDelete
  146. Anonymous6:55 AM

    Don't forget this woman had other options. She didn't have to use RU, she could very well have gotten someone to twist a coat hanger inside her. That was a frequent choice before Roe VS Wade. And it will be again if the "pro-life" gang forces their choices on all of us.

    "pro-life" == unsafe abortions

    ReplyDelete
  147. Anonymous9:37 AM

    I know I'm at the end of the list, but I still feel I need to say something in defense of Jenny's lack of birth control. She barely has enough money to live on; birth control pills are expensive, last I heard about $50/month without insurance. Internal barrier methods require fitting by a doctor, which also costs money and clearly wasn't available to her. Finally, can you envision her no-good boyfriend who is now in jail agreeing to wear a condom? He doesn't care; he's not the one who might get pregnant.

    As others have said, the root of this problem is lack of affordable health care, the constriction of available abortions, and poor sex education curricula. Jenny did make some terrible choices, but she had a right to make those decisions on her own. I just wish she had a support system nearby to help.
    ~physicsmom

    ReplyDelete
  148. Anonymous10:13 AM

    Try again ladies.

    Why does a woman get the choice to temporarily opt out of parenthood out of convenience and a man doesn't? Some of you can't admit you have a double standard.

    "It's up to a woman do decide if she's ready to be a mother!"

    "get a vasectomy if you don't want to be a father".

    Apparently only women have the brains to decide what is best for their life. Men should just get a vasectomy because women can always decide later to use a sperm bank if they want to get PG so they don't need men. That is the message.

    And lwtjb, you can say the same thing to women who don't want kids. Keep your pussy in your pants.

    But that isn't very realistic now is it?

    And for the record, I have 4 kids and I'm responsible for them all. I'm just pointing out the flaw in the radical right to choose side. On one side they say women don't need no stinkin' man deciding what they should do with their lives. And on the other side, they want the choice to make that same decision for a man. THose two arguments are at odds with each other.

    Rick

    ReplyDelete
  149. Anonymous10:38 AM

    physicsmom@9:37

    You are correct that affordable or even free education, birth control, and health care will help in situations like these. But you are also right that a lot of it boils down to making good choices. Many are either lazy or under the influence of drugs or booze and most of the time will continue to make bad choices. Why are those who keep suggesting to me that all a man who doesn't want kids needs to do is get a vasectomy but the same people aren't suggesting that this lady needs a tubal ligation? Same difference.

    I know a lady with only one lung left, but she continues to smoke. Bad choice. I know people who have bad liver damage but they continue to drink. Bad choice.

    I personally know the young lady from Wasilla who had her baby and placed it in a plastic bag and suitcase in a closet at her father's house in Colorado where it was found a month later. Was lack of birth control, or health care access, or a support group what caused this action? Nope, it was bad choices partly caused by mental issues (I believe)where she painted herself into a corner so to speak. Her parents would have helped her had she asked. They still support her in Jail, even though they are the ones who turned her in. My daughter who was her close friend would have helped her. I would have helped her. She just didn't make the choice to ask for help.

    At some point you have to make people responsible for their choices. You can't keep softening the consequences for them.

    Rick

    ReplyDelete
  150. LisaB259510:51 AM

    My heart doesn't go out to her. While I'm strongly pro-choice, I'm anti-stupid and foolish women, and this woman seems to be both.

    I will allow that the lack of proper access to medical care is part of the problem, but she's not a hormone-driven teenager. She's a woman grown with 3 other children. Time she started acting like it.

    ReplyDelete
  151. Anonymous11:09 AM

    On one side they say women don't need no stinkin' man deciding what they should do with their lives. And on the other side, they want the choice to make that same decision for a man. THose two arguments are at odds with each other.

    Rick

    10:13 AM
    ====
    Your logic is abysmal. You are unhappy that science found a birth control method that's effective for women, but did not find a parallel drug for men.

    Like many, many things in this world, products are created when there is a MARKET. Are men pounding down the doors of scientists DEMANDING a birth control drug? Nope.

    The people that want women to go back to the days before Roe VS Wade are BOTH men and women. Their sex is not the determinant, it is the pitiful lack of logic in their excuse for brains.

    ReplyDelete
  152. Anonymous11:15 AM

    I'm one of the lucky ones that grew up having my mother tell me how miserable she was/is that she could not abort me.

    I know precisely the mental, physical and economic cost to my mother due to my birth. Because I was told about it, a lot.

    And I will fight to preserve Roe VS Wade with every ounce of my political will. Because I know that my mother's sole birth control choice was an illegal, unsanitary, frightening and costly abortion (if she could have found one). And it is that, that was the crime.

    ReplyDelete
  153. Anonymous12:01 PM

    Rick

    10:13 AM

    Why does a woman get the choice to temporarily opt out of parenthood out of convenience and a man doesn't? Some of you can't admit you have a double standard.
    ________________________________________________

    Rick...your question was answered. You don't like the answer...too bad. If a man does not want to have kids...then it's HIS RESPONSIBILITY to make sure that HE does not have children, not the woman, she is responsible for her own body just like a man is responsible for HIS OWN SPERM!

    ReplyDelete
  154. Anonymous12:09 PM

    Chella,
    You didn't have a late term abortion. You had a second trimester abortion, perfectly legal, perfectly normal, extremely common. Not the most ideal way to have an abortion, obviously, but there are so many women who end up the situation you did suffering from a "stealth" pregnancy where they still had periods during their pregnancy and had no idea they were so far along. For them, this procedure makes total sense if they don't want the child.

    A late term abortion is, again, done very near the time when a baby would naturally be born in the third trimester, and it's only done in a hospital to save the life of the mother.

    Please stop conflating the two terms, folks -- second trimester abortion is NOT late term abortion. Again, the religious right have spent a huge amount of time, money and effort attempting to confuse the two in people's minds.

    ReplyDelete
  155. Enjay in E MT1:16 PM

    I am late adding to the comments however still wanted to add my nickels worth. By no means do I support this womans lifestyle and actions prior to or after the termination.

    However, I support her choice to make a difficult decision based on her own personal circumstances.

    Unfortunately, she opted for termination without a medical consultation.

    If we begin harping on WHY the decision had to be made (such as why didn't she have her tubes tied, or use birth control... or abstinence, education.... yadda yadda yadda) - then WE are judging her decision regarding a private medical procedure. It is NOOB (none of our business).

    Unfortunately, due to a lack of inexpensive birth control in many communities - my own state included - termination is lengthy drives, multiple trips and expensive. A close relative of mine was fortunate to visit a wellness center for her first appt., who scheduled the procedure for the nearest Planned Parenthood clinic 300 miles away. Roughly 5 hr drive with an overnight stay and 5 hrs home again.

    Our state has small community pharmacies that REFUSE to carry "the day after pill" or even birth control pills. These women must purchase by mail or drive 50+ miles to another pharmacy because they are forced to live within another person’s belief system.

    There will be 'abusers' of terminating pregnancies (using abortion as birth control) - but we should not let the actions of the few remove the rights from millions of responsible women.

    Should people who smoke be denied cancer treatments because they are undeserving? HIV treatments to heterosexuals only? How about golfers getting skin cancer?

    Do not judge lest ye be judged!

    ReplyDelete
  156. Anonymous6:56 PM

    Anonymous @ 11:09

    My logic is fine. Whats good for the goose is good for the gander.

    And I have no desire to see us return to the pre Roe VS Wade days. I just want to see equal treatment for all under the law.

    Anonymous @12:01 No, you didn't answer the question, Why does a woman get to make a choice after the fact about whether a pregnancy is convenient for her and a man doesn't get that same choice after the fact?

    If a woman doesn't want to get pregnant and have a child, She needs to control her own body and her eggs and be careful about allowing sperm into it.

    Why is a man automatically responsible for a baby because he had consensual sex with a woman but he isn't responsible if he masturbates in a cup and she uses that sperm to get pregnant? The result is the same, a baby. Doesn't the baby deserve the same from the sperm donor no matter how the sperm is delivered?

    Rick

    ReplyDelete
  157. Anonymous7:35 PM

    Hah hah....

    http://news.yahoo.com/feds-issue-warning-unconventional-sperm-donor-140811851.html

    ReplyDelete
  158. Anonymous3:03 AM

    My logic is fine. Whats good for the goose is good for the gander.

    Rick

    6:56 PM
    ====
    Your logic remains abysmal. You want a birth control for men just because there is a birth control drug for women. As if women didn't have to fight to get birth control. It was just handed to women as a gift.

    If you want to at least appear logical. Define your terms, state your argument and defend your position. Don't whine.

    ReplyDelete
  159. Anonymous8:43 AM

    Yak yak yak. Anonymous at 3:03. do you even have the ability to think?

    I have stated my position. This isn't about birth control per se.

    Yes I agree with you that BOTH men and women need to be responsible for birth control and their sexual health before the fact. But as you or others have pointed out. Birth control isn't 100% effective. So sometimes there are unwanted pregnancies that occur even to responsible people. But leaving out the morning after pill, (which is a wonderful new development) you want to give a woman a do over in the form of an abortion, or putting the child up for adoption so she doesn't have to be responsible for raising that child if she doesn't want to be. But as far as a man goes, he has no choice if he ends up in the same position through the same set of circumstances.

    That is why you are a hypocrite.

    Rick

    ReplyDelete
  160. Anonymous11:37 AM

    Men have fewer post-conception choices because (not being hypocritical here) the PROBLEM has moved elsewhere.

    ReplyDelete
  161. Anonymous1:28 PM

    Until the squalling infant can be swabbed for DNA, no one knows for sure who the father is.

    (Don't bleat about amnio testing, there are risks to the fetus which many women will not take.)

    Opting out of parenthood for a man has to happen before conception. Because most assuredly there is no legal system on earth that would permit a man to demand a woman abort a fetus on the off chance his DNA is there.

    One might argue that a man is entitled to say "I didn't want the kid so I won't pay child support". Good luck with that.

    ReplyDelete
  162. Anonymous4:58 PM

    To all the people who assume the woman wasn't using contraception:

    Have you ever heard of a FAILURE RATE? All contraceptives have one. NO contraceptive is foolproof. You are making assumptions without evidence.

    How do I know? Because several decades ago, before Roe v. Wade, my parents found out the failure rate for their methods of contraception, and here I am today.

    It's easy to slam this woman and tell her how to live her life, but how many of you would want someone doing that to you? Quit being self-righteous. If you have EVER had sex, even using contraception, you could have been in the same situation.

    If she had had a local abortion clinic to go to, or a doctor who wasn't afraid of getting killed by crazies if he/she did an abortion, there would have been no problem and no story.

    ReplyDelete

Don't feed the trolls!
It just goes directly to their thighs.