Morality is not determined by the church you attend nor the faith you embrace. It is determined by the quality of your character and the positive impact you have on those you meet along your journey
I don't care what he gives to his church. It's far more important issues to discuss and study.
Yes, like how in a few minutes in England he became the American Borat.http://www.flickr.com/photos/expd/7660821542/in/photostreamI think this is why:http://www.flickr.com/photos/expd/7660494980/in/photostream/
God, I hope Mitt doesn't wear the green swimsuit
You and I may not care what he gives to his church, but the his fellow Mormons do. If it came out that Romney was paying less than 10% the consequences for the Romneys would be bad.
I've been wondering the same thing. Does anyone know if his church expect tithes based on income before or after tax?
It's on GROSS income.
The actual Church journals indicate that Mormons are to give 10% of your extra income after taxes, food, utilities, etc. I don't know when the Mormon church stopped teaching that (I'd imagine fairly early), but my whole life I was raised to pay 10% of everything. You'r not supposed to wait until the end of the year, you're supposed to pay every month. My older sister was such a Molly Mormon (nickname for perfect little mormon girls) that she paid 10% on tips she got at work and cash gifts from her Bday and Xmas.
I was told that it was to be on gross income when I first joined the church, but then it was explained that it was up to the tithe payer as to whether they paid on gross income or net income. This means that if you pay 10% of gross, you don't pay again if you receive a tax refund, because you have already paid. I let my husband pay the tithing, as he is the breadwinner, and he pays on his gross income. He also pays a generous fast offering and other amounts to the humanitarian fund, so I think our percentage of contributions comes out to more than 10% - it's more like 15% when he is finished. Some Mormons believe you get more blessings the more you give. Mitt can definitely afford to give his 10%. I don't know how honest he is about paying it, though. That remains to be seen, if it is revealed at all.
I've thought that all along as the reason he won't reveal his tax returns.
Sure Mittens would be screwed. And in Romney fashion we all know he is a chronic liar, so he's been shorting them for some time. But I'm sure the Mormons would just make him pay all his tithing back retroactively. Of course they would probably write down in the books somewhere that all his children were conceived outside of marriage or no White Horse for him or something. A thief in the temple is Romney. It is all about the money . And the Romney's tell is like most liar's tells---they talk about how much they give to their church, ALL THE TIME. Palin- like projection.
I thought that what was revealed already showed that they didn't give 10%???
Mrs Romney saying "“We’ve given all you people need to know and understand about our financial situation and how we live our life,” she added later.http://www.americablog.com/2012/07/ann-romney-lashes-out-at-voters-you.htmlThat just sums it all up right there, doesn't it folks? YOU PEOPLE that live in your cold water 4th floor walk=up apartments can vote for us, but you won't come into our neighborhood will you?YOU PEOPLE will of course never own a million dollar horse, or have an elevator for your cars in your mansion, will you?YOU PEOPLE will never believe our fabulous lifestyle, or appreciate our religion that promises us our OWN PLANET if we continue on being good little Mormons
Right on! I would only add that Ann must detest having to mingle with the non-wealthy, non-country club members, non-dressage and non-Mormons amongst us! I am sure that, in her mind, she is a martyr for Mitt.
I wondered about that, ever since I heard Ann say, "You know, he's such a genreous guy. He gives 10% to our church and no on has to remind him to do that." Right, and just where else do you share your great abundance that you worked so hard for by being born into the right families and having good lawyers to hide most of it from taxes?
Nowhere. They just give where they must.
No one has to remind him? Bullshit. The bishop hunts down everyone in the hallways every Sunday to remind them about tithing. There's at least two references to tithing in each three hour Church session on Sundays. At the end of the year you need to schedule Tithing Settlement so that the Church can figure out if you've been paying "an honest tithe." If you don't pay you're not allowed into the Mormon Temple.
As an ex-mormon, I can tell you that they cannot do temple work (and wear temple garments)unless they pay tithing. The church has "tithing-settlement" toward the end of each year with each church member. A receipt is given whether they pay by the month or year or whatever. The receipt is then, in turn, used for tax purposes as a tax deduction. Therefore the church KNOWS how much money Romney has given.
Marz, I just acknowledged the church procedure as well. However, my bishop didn't harass us every Sunday tho.
Mormons don't pay their 10% tithe out of the goodness of their hearts and the pure spirit of generosity. They pay it because it's the price of entrance into the kingdom. Not only does it buy you a temple recommend, but it also buys you social status. Mormons also refer to tithing as "fire insurance" because they believe it will protect them from the fire of divine judgement. I absolutely hate it that Ann Romney claims that her husband pays their tithing because he's such a generous guy. It has nothing to do with being generous.I don't know if his tithing to income ratio is what he's hiding about his tax returns. Could be. Personally, I suspect that it's something darker and more sinister than that. But I don't think we'll ever know, because it looks like he'd rather pay the political price of NOT releasing his returns than let any of us know what's in them.
Marz, I have no idea what makes you an expert on what goes on at the LDS church on Sunday. I am a devote LDS, and I have not heard much about tithing from the Bishop or during lessons. Our lessons are based on the Spirit, not on the church's monetary gains. The tithing settlement is the one of the few times I ever hear about tithing. I have been a member for over 30 years, so I do know what I am talking about. It is true that you must pay tithing to be allowed in the Temple, but that is just part of being devote, and exercising your faith in Christ.Also, the Bishop has way too much to do to "hunt down everyone in the hallways every Sunday".
Gryphen, damn, this is excellent.I'd not considered it previously. I'd not put it past them to give some much smaller percentage. They scam and lie to everyone. So why not them lying to other Mormons and screwing over their religion and religious organization. That would be very Rmoney.I'm still thinking they paid no tax or got a large refund on their taxes.Yet, this would be something if he/she/they were that sleazy and not paying their 10% to the Mormons.I better stock up on popcorn. Their lying, along with convention tea infighting, and now if Rmoneys have been mucking over their church too. Delicious. Sorry, I'm really not a person who likes seeing people get their justice or karma back, yet for all the shit they've tossed around, it's nice to see more of it sticking to them. Plus, I don't need any of their trickle brown, no thank you. Trickle down was bad enough. Enjoy it Mitt, him stepping into his own real Mitt. Yeah, I'm beginning to enjoy his facade cracking and light reaching the places they wanted to keep in the dark.
You're missing point, there, Paul. If they are "true believers" then they aren't just lying to their fellow Mormon club members. (Just like on their tax returns they lie to their fellow citizens.) If they are Mormon true believers, they are lying to their God. And that is both low, and stupid.
Thank you for your points. When I commented, I was still finding my lucid state after I woke up earlier today.Also, since I don't believe in gawd (sky faerie Daddy Dom), I didn't put anything other than reference to real people. Yet, yes, I could see the Rmoney's screwing over God as they've screwed over so many real people.
Even if untrue,exploring it could be illuminating for those uninformed about the Mormon Church......
In other news,the picture above says it all....his wife gives me the creeps...........
And I bet they give proportionately ver little to non-Mormon-related charities.
This has been my instinct from the first day he began hedging the release of his returns and have commented same several times. Glad that others are starting to pick up on just who this man truly fears. The IRS - not a problem for Mitt. He knows they don't have enough staff to pick thru his returns to completely figure out what he's doing but the tithing committee is pretty darn good at multiplying "Line 1" by 10%. They will just have to guess like the rest of us what he conveniently left out.
The more I see Ann Romney, the more repugnant I find her. She is an entitled, elitist, egotistical, pompous and unaccomplished PHONY and not fit to be FLOTUS. I was no big fan of Laura Bush but at least she was always dignified and respectful of others. Not our Ann! How can you brag about what you must give which, in fact, is not a donation but, rather, a payment. And I do agree that there is potential trouble for Mitt when and if the tax returns are revealed. Once a cheat, always a cheat, IMO.
My sentiments EXACTLY.....
Once upon a time, long ago and far away, I used to be in the horse show world. I got out of the horse show world because of people exactly like Ann Romney. Stuck up, entitled, self-centered, rich bitch. Loved the horses, couldn't stand the people participating.
I don't know which I dislike more... the skinny blonde demure Stepford Wife that McCain had or this skinny blonde self-righteous ignorant Stepford Wife that Romney has. I think part of it comes from being so rich it defines the word excess. The other part comes from being Mormon, where they are taught that they are the chosen ones in a chosen generation. Romney and his wife have gone through the temple and participated in the "secret ceremonies" and know more about the mysteries of life than any other religion does. Romney believes he's going to fulfill the White Horse Prophecy. Someone needs to ask the Romney's if they stand behind Israel and the Jewish people. And when they say yes, ask how they feel about the Church doing post-humus baptisms for Holocaust Jews. Signed,an Ex-Mormon
Yeah,I remember those days.getting up in the dark to train and groom their horses,cleaning their stalls,hauling their horses to shows where their kids stepped out of the SUV all dolled up and pretty right onto the horse,racing back to get mine ready,get to the ring,ride against them,then jump off when out of the ring to help school their horse and rider,back on my horse to ride,all day,not a think you at days end while they celebrated the wins from their expensive horse and mannequin rider.Then they go ignore the horse until the next show.
But...but..It's out time! It's Mitt's turn!
These two would be horrid in the White House!! They so lack empathy for less means than themselves.Thank God we have President and Mrs. Obama representing Americans and I truly suspect they are going to win again in a landslide even though the media is playing this race as 'close' for all they are worth!!!Mrs. Obama is so much more outstanding than Ann Romney. OBAMA/BIDEN 2012
What a great poster...well there it is. I have been reading about the Mormon church more and trust me, Mitt is their boy. They have zillions of dollars invested in real estate, housing, shopping malls...you name it. They invest in their politics as we all know in CA and the "anti-gays" and help the poor? I don't think so, its all about the money. I had not thought of the tax return thing in this light, but it does make perfect sense. Ole Mitt & Ann are holding out from the prying eyes of their sacred church...all those millions in offshore? What a hoot, no planet for you. I can't imagine paying to belong to a religion, isn't that more like a club?On another note...seems like everyone has forgotten that Obama received the Nobel Peace Prize, seems like that committee rewarded his efforts at bringing the world together, of course not counting on our jackass GOP & Congress. Just saying...watching beach volleyball, go USA.
I doubt that Ann Romney has any idea what is in the tax returns - Mitt sure wouldn't discuss it with a woman. I also doubt that Mitt would have cheated on his church - they get their share - every year. Revealing the tax returns HAS to be worse than the flak from not revealing them. Maybe no-one can even guess at the issue?
The Mormon Church is another tax shelter for their wealthy members. Did you know that they don't have to donate actual cash? Mitt could be donating stocks, which are valued at one price for the public, but as a donation are marked as an inflated price?Gordon Hinckly, (now deceased Prophet of the church) encouraged one wealthy member to purchase the infamous "salamander letter" from Mark Hoffman to donate to the church. Hinckly didn't want the LDS Church to outright purchase the document (later determined to be forged) but wanted to keep it hidden by others who was opposed to the church. He told the member to buy the letter from Hoffman, and donate it to the church. Hinckly said that the member could attach any value he wanted to the letter for a tax donation. (So for example, the member could purchase the historical document for $100,000 and claim that it was worth $250,000) and get a tax deduction from the church for the price he claimed. The member did what he was asked to do, and was killed by one of Mark Hoffman's bomb. This example in history should have exposed the Mormon church for the tax gimmicks they use.
I see that you have read The Mormon Murders. That was enlightening, wasn't it?
I think I'm headed to the book store to look for this now. Just posted below about Under the Banner of Heaven and The God Makers. Didn't know about this one!
Why the Hundred Million IRA, when he withdraws it he will have to pay higher taxes than if just paid the 15%. But if donates straight from the IRA to the church he saves the 15% capital gains tax and gets income tax credit for the donation to the church.
Exposing the crackling mortar from their pristine castle of bat shit crazy...very risky, but so necessary.
I doubt the church would give him any long-standing grief over the issue; they are all accustomed to lying for any reason expedient to the church, it's appearance, or any prominent church person. It's so common that it's referred to as "lying for the Lord". They further support their dishonesty by changing the rules, or "prophesies", when their lies can't bail them out, or simply when it better suits their purposes to support a lie. Think about that whole no-blacks-until-the-Supreme-Court-took-away-our-tax-deduction mess that culminated in the late 1970s.Despite what their mouths say, lying is second nature to them and easily forgivable when it comes to light. A then-Mormon friend once told me "We never give them meat when milk will do." in reference to persons making replies about questions regarding dubious Mormon policies.
Matthew 6:1-4 ESV “Beware of practicing your righteousness before other people in order to be seen by them, for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven. “Thus, when you give to the needy, sound no trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may be praised by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you
Too bad they don't give a crap about the actual Bible except to pay it lip service, they have their own book given to them by their con-artist founder...they much prefer that one.
Yes, I am betting that he under-reported his income, in a way that would be obvious if all his info were released.BUT I bet he did it in some way that makes it look like all was done right if you squint, use mirrors, and use only your bad eye. And I bet he believes that version. And I bet the Mormon elders, who read the same news reports we do, are okay with that. Perhaps all the really wealthy among them do it.
Yes, Willard is NOT giving a full 10% of his income to his church. He lies about everything. And Ann most likely can't count change for a dollar, let alone understand her husband's tax cheats.
I think I'd be more pissy if he paid the mandatory 10% and then wrote it off on his taxes. My parents forced me to pay my tithing to the church when I was a teenager. They would go through my stuff to make sure I had the tithing receipts. I wish I could have gotten that $10,000 back from those years.
Based on what I'm reading, Joseph Smith was a con artist from the beginning. The entire church was built on lies. And they changed old "revelations" with new "revelations" when it was convenient. Mitt grew up knowing that it was okay to lie. His submissive, not too bright, easily led wife fell right in line when George Romney "converted" her. Since the beginning of Mitt's refusal to release the returns, I've thought he might be hiding money from the church. I don't think we'll ever see his returns - I think he would drop out before he'd release them. IMO, he's thinking that no way would he win if we see them so why show the world how much he's worth and what he's done - might as well drop out before releasing them. I also think he's worth way more than $250 million. We have no leverage to make him release the returns so he'll just go on ignoring the demands and count on the GOP to steal the election outright or do it with voter suppression. I am so enjoying the RomneyShambles! He and Ann are entitled, egotistical buffoons but that doesn't mean that if he stays in the race, the GOP won't steal the election. OBAMA/BIDEN 2012. Did everyone see this? http://www.nationalmemo.com/not-just-a-cop-mitt-pulled-pranks-dressed-as-fireman-mobster/
A good look into the Mormon church is the Jon Krakauer book, "Under the Banner of Heaven" which the LDS church was upset by since Krakauer is a fairly famous author. Great read and a good way to understand how different the Mormon religion is.http://www.amazon.com/Under-Banner-Heaven-Story-Violent/dp/0385509510Another interesting read is "The God Makers" although, it's slant is from a fundie Christian view and so you have to read through that crap.
I wonder if the LDS leaders are starting to ask themselves, what if Romney is elected and his rottenness appears later? I'm Jewish, I hope to live to see our first Jewish President, but I would fight to keep a dishonest or corrupt Jew from dishonoring the office and the Jewish people.Mormons in America have a good reputation for honesty, hard work and thrift. If Romney has secrets that would badly hurt that image, better for the church that he come clean and lose, rather than win and be disgraced later, like President Nixon of less-than-blessed memory.
Ann Romney stikes me as one of those wealthy women who can buy anything but class.
Don't forget "Leaving the Saints" by Martha Beck. A regular columnist in "O Magazine" and Oprah guest. It is an amazing story and a true page turner.
Hi Anon 12:04- I just bought the book. The previews looked excellent. Thank you for the suggestion.
This picture says it all. Who really wants to run the free world? Ann Romney. Look how thrilled to be important she is. Mitt, he's just acting it out.
I never thought of it that way, Anon 5:44am. You may have something there.
Don't feed the trolls! It just goes directly to their thighs.