Thursday, September 20, 2012

Baptist professor challenges artifact suggesting that Jesus was married: "A statement on a papyrus fragment isn't proof of anything. It's nothing more than a statement 'in thin air', without substantial context." Uh, wait a minute.

Courtesy of the BBC: Ms (Karen) King said the document, written in ancient Egyptian Coptic, is the first known scripture in which Jesus is reported to cite his wife. 

She said the 4th-Century text was a copy of a gospel, probably written in Greek in the 2nd Century. 

She said initially she was sceptical about the yellowish brown papyrus, and started from the notion that it was a forgery - but that she quickly decided it was genuine. 

Several other experts agreed, she said, but the "final judgment on the fragment depends on further examination by colleagues and further testing, especially of the chemical composition of the ink". 

Ms King said the script was not proof of Jesus's marital status. 

"It is not evidence, for us, historically, that Jesus had a wife," she said. 

"It's quite clear evidence, in fact, that some Christians, probably in the second half of the 2nd Century, thought that Jesus had a wife." 

Ms King said it revealed the concerns of early Christians with regards to family and marriage matters. 

"From the very beginning, Christians disagreed about whether it was better not to marry, but it was over a century after Jesus's death before they began appealing to Jesus's marital status to support their positions. 

"What this shows is that there were early Christians for whom sexual union in marriage could be an imitation of God's creativity and generativity and it could be spiritually proper and appropriate." 

Anybody who has spent any time reading about the life of Jesus has run across the theory that he probably was married, and if you read "The DaVinci Code" you were entertained with the notion that not only did Jesus marry Mary Magdalen, but that he also fathered children and the Catholic church took great pains to cover it up in order to protect their "No Girls Allowed" clubhouse.

Personally I was struck by the dismissive attitude reflected in my headline by some theologians, and their attempt to immediately call into question even the possibility that this piece of papyrus might hold evidence that their view of Christianity might not be completely accurate:

Jim West, a professor and Baptist pastor in Tennessee, said: "A statement on a papyrus fragment isn't proof of anything. It's nothing more than a statement 'in thin air', without substantial context." 

Wolf-Peter Funk, a noted Coptic linguist attending the same conference as Ms King, said there were "thousands of scraps of papyrus where you find crazy things," and many questions remained about the fragment.

I find the statement identifying the papyrus as "nothing more than a statement 'in thin air'" to be very interesting in that it could also be used to describe the ENTIRE Old and New Testament of the Bible, which really only has the most rudimentary support from any scientific research to support many of its historic claims.

Besides the idea of Mary having been one of the disciples of Jesus is not a new idea at all, as it is documented in the Gospel of Mary.

Personally I have always had serious doubts that there was an actual historical Jesus, though I have read several books putting forth evidence to support that claim. But if there WAS it certainly would have made him more interesting and accessible to learn that he had a wife.

Just imagine the kind of positive impact that could have had on the Catholic Church, and Christianity in general.

27 comments:

  1. Leland2:26 AM

    What I find fascinating is that people are so vehemently discounting the papyrus (see headline above) even though Ms. King herself CLEARLY stated that it proves nothing and that more study is needed.

    Scared much?

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    1. Anonymous10:17 AM

      In times like these, I stop and ask myself, "What would Jesus' wife do?"

      Delete
  2. Anonymous3:05 AM

    The Coptic Bibles have lots of info on a Jesus that was thrown out. Besides being married, there is also writing that he was not the son of god, but a very evolved human, who had tapped into the powers humans can have, etc.
    These bibles books were thrown out because they didn't fit the profile of what the foundling church wanted to make us believe.
    I believe there was an historical human named Jesus. He was not the son of god born of a virgin. I won't rule out the possibility of him being an alien hybrid with extra powers...but it was all distorted, as humans in charge are wont to do, to fit their agenda for the world.......

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    1. Anonymous6:46 AM

      Yep. Look to one highly misogynist Bishop Iraneus fro most of the throwing out.

      Delete
    2. Leland10:43 AM

      The last I heard, there were 39 gospels and only four were selected primarily because they gave foundation to the authority of the church. People need to:
      a.) UNDERSTAND there are more than 4 gospels
      b.) READ more than 4, and
      c.) THINK for themselves!

      Delete
  3. Anonymous4:16 AM

    I think it's entirely possible there was an itinerant preacher wandering around the Middle East preaching apocalyptic Judaism with the name of Yeshua bin Yusef. After all, there were dozens of preachers roaming the area with similar stories. If there was such a man, he was born, lived, and died a Jew of his time, which likely means he *was* married, because that's just what happened in that time and in that place. (Also, he makes a point of saying his followers should abandon their wives and children, hate their families, and follow him, which kinda sounds suspicious, doesn't it?)

    As for all the supernatural stuff? I'm not convinced of that at all. I also believe there was probably a tall guy wandering the mid-west of the USA in the 1800s with the name Paul Bunyan, but I don't believe he was eleventy-six feet tall and had an equally-huge ox as a friend and they roamed the countryside building mountains and digging the Grand Canyon. I believe there was likely a Saint Nicholas known for his generosity, but I don't believe he dons a red suit and flies a pack of magical, glowing-nosed reindeer around the world delivering elf-made presents every December.

    And yeah, I'm loving the irony of, "Those are just words on paper! You can't believe them!"

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  4. Sally in MI4:27 AM

    What has always made me skeptical of these "The BIble is God's Holy Word" people is which Bible? The KJV, which took pains to follow the mandates of King James, who wanted women in their place? The Greek Bible? The various and asundry rewrites over hte past 2000 years? The books that were left out, which presumably have a different take on things or the Catholic Church would have included them. The books in Latin? The books of the Old Testament, which show an angry and vengeful God, or the New, in which He is suddenly all love and forgiveness and inclusive?
    My church uses the NT as our guide, but we quote OT every Sunday too. Just makes me shake my head when a scholar finds new evidence and the good old boys refuse to even consider it. I want to see the piece of papyrus that shows Jesus embracing gays, but I'm sure that one was burned long ago too.

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    1. Read the Gospel of Judas for a mind-blowing experience:

      http://www.nationalgeographic.com/lostgospel/_pdf/GospelofJudas.pdf

      An excerpt:

      Jesus said, “[Come], that I may teach you about [secrets] no person [has] ever seen. For
      there exists a great and boundless realm, whose extent no generation of angels has seen,
      [in which] there is [a] great invisible [Spirit],
      which no eye of an angel has ever seen,
      no thought of the heart has ever comprehended,and it was never called by any name.


      Reading this document (a couple of years ago) is what framed 'God' in my mind as 'The Everywhere'. It made me think of 'God' as the entity that occupies the space between our atoms and therefore molecules; ergo, we are all connected.

      Delete
    2. Leland10:56 AM

      I liked this the first I heard of it. Read it as soon as I could get anything about it. Fascinating!

      Have you any idea what it was like when these nut-jobs got wind of the Gospel according to Judas!

      I can hear them now: "There is no way in HELL there is such a thing. He hanged himself in less then 24 hours!!!!! AAAAAAAAAH! SATAN AGAIN!"

      Hammer, Google The Jerusalem Bible Project. More weight for the arguments against the "pure" bible.

      Delete
  5. Olivia5:09 AM

    If Jesus himself handed this bit of papyrus to these guys and told them it was real, they would still scoff. Their myths are as good as carved in stone and nothing new need be introduced especially information that real science might verify.
    It's a bit like a cargo cult.
    A story of an incident that happened in a very short span of time a long time ago to people whose window of experience was extremely tiny becomes the core of their whole existence. No new information is accepted or relevant and everything in the universe must be reshaped to fit into that story.

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  6. Dis Gusted5:18 AM

    Jesus was of a royal line so it makes perfect sense that he would have married. There are many theologists that believe Mary Magdalen and Mary of Bethany are one and the same person.

    The Gospel of Thomas has many citations that Jesus preferred Mary to all others. It was Peter that was extremely jealous and called her a whore.

    The wedding at Cana was most likely the wedding of Jesus and Mary. His parents hosted the party and Jesus was responsible for the wine. When the toast is made to the bridegroom, it was directed to Jesus.

    It makes perfect sense that he would have been married as that was the normal.

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    1. Anonymous6:09 AM

      There is ZERO evidence Jesus existed. The gospels are not contemporary with him, and there is no mention of him in any genuine historical record.

      Delete
    2. There you go again, with those pesky facts.

      Delete
    3. Leland11:02 AM

      And to make matters even worse, there is no evidence that Rome ever decreed that a census was to be taken - especially one taken as stupidly as to have everyone GO HOME!

      The romans were not stupid and were actually quite efficient considering, and they would NEVER have ordered everyone to go to their home towns and totally disrupt the commercial world!

      Delete
  7. fromthediagonal5:26 AM

    Gryphen, if you are interested in the research surrounding the Dead Sea Scrolls, look up the name John Marco Allegro (John Allegro.org) and his primary book "The Sacred Mushroom And The Cross", written in 1970. He was an eminent British researcher on the international team translating the scrolls.

    Without going into detail, he came to be considered a heretic when his research diverged from the preconceived notions of his colleagues in the religious community and was pushed out. He then published his findings independently, further angering his former fellow scholars.
    It is a bit of a daunting read and heavily annotated, but provides much food for thought.

    And so it goes...





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    1. Anonymous6:50 AM

      Or, for the easier version, you might like the teaching company, "The Bible as Literature" or Sugrue's Th"The Bible and Western culture"

      Delete
  8. Anonymous6:46 AM

    Yeah, if you bother to look at ANY history, there were lots of wandering magicians in that era. The eventual "Jesus Christ" was likely an amalgam of those, because NOTHING, zip zilch nada, was actually written by Christ. Rather many decades or even centuries after, we get second hand stories.

    If there was a singular Christ, he was likely a hippie-ish mystic, very charismatic - and a bit rebellious against Roman and Jewish 1%er authority. Cool image.

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  9. Anonymous7:18 AM

    Thanks fromthediagonal! Love to read books like this.
    How did he die BTW?
    It seems that authors writing on these subjects die early.

    Another writer, who has passed is Laurence Gardner. The Church hated him and his books, and he passed mysteriously.

    Considering how these church bastards hate women, its no wonder they want to suppress the notion that Jesus was married to Mary.
    And might of had a child!

    As to the poster above about Paul Bunyun, is a "fable" just like the Bible is.

    All "Fables" have kernels of truths in them. The trick separating fact from fiction.

    Just like the Paylin fables. There is a TriG...but Sarah didn't birth him, and surely not on April 18, 2008. That's a fable.

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  10. Anonymous7:29 AM

    After I watched the movie "The DaVinci Code" I surfed the internet for info about Jesus being married. I came across an account (sorry can't remember the link) that said Jesus was from a royal blood line (DAVID??) and so was his wife (the Mary of Bethany thingy??). Because of the royal bloodlines he could stir up people to rise against Rome and follow him, which is what I kind of think happened. Anyway, it said that since Jesus pissed off the Romans and was crucified his wife and child were in danger. So they were secretly taken to France where there are stories of some black princess. Since Mary was probably from an African royal family their child could be the "black" princess. Anyway, the bottom line was that in order to protect the princess-who was the last of this royal line-everyone lied about Jesus being married because otherwise his wife and child would be in grave danger.

    Sorry I don't have any citation. I was reading that account late at night and so I just absorbed the basic story but the concept seems to make sense.

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  11. Anonymous9:49 AM

    Some believe these stories are apocryphal and some believe they are allegorical stories meant to tell people how to live their lives 2000 years ago. If the guy existed, does anyone believe this guy wasn't getting his freak on with the MaryM?

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  12. "The Woman with the Alabaster Jar" is the first book I recall reading about the theory that Jesus was married to Mary of Magdala. The author is Margaret Starbird, a Biblical scholar, but the book is short and written with the layperson in mind. Starbird writes a lot about reclaiming the "sacred feminine," and this was one of her most popular efforts. In "The Tarot Trumps and the Holy Grail," she goes even farther afield, and proposes that the Major Arcana of the Tarot encodes the history of Jesus's bloodline.

    One theory is that the wealthy Joseph of Arimathea spirited Mary away after Jesus's crucifixion. She settled in France, and the birth of her child founded the line of Merovingian kings. From there, if you like conspiracy theories, you can get into the Priory of Sion, the Knights Templar, and other groups who were dedicated to protecting the true Holy Grail--not the chalice Jesus drank from at the Last Supper, nor that which was used to catch the blood and water from His side--but his bloodline.

    One of the most popular books on this theme is "Holy Blood, Holy Grail," by Michael Baigent and a couple of co-authors. It's a fun read, but the authors are not scholars and a lot of their material is preposterous, to be generous. "The Church of Mary Magdalene" by Jean Markale, is a bit better researched, distilling what little is known about the woman called Mary Magdalene from the colorful and improbable speculation.

    It's human nature to love mysteries and conspiracies, and Jesus is such a compelling historical figure, whether you're a believer or not, that He will always be a rich source of speculation and myth, as well as devotion.

    N.B. Historians Josephus and Tacitus both wrote about Jesus, citing different sources. Jesus was mentioned in letters of one of the Plinys and also Nero. Nero bragged about using pesky Christians as human torches, and in a letter written in 64 A.D., he blamed the burning of Rome on the followers of Christ. Even avowed atheist Christopher Hitchins acknowledged that Jesus existed, and Dawkins admits it's "more likely than not" that Jesus lived. Good for them. That puts them in company with virtually all credentialed historians and Biblical scholars.

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  13. The Church (Born Again Christians) are called the Bride of Christ. In the OT, God is married to the backsliders to bring them back to him.

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  14. There's little to no historical basis for the Gospels. (http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Evidence_for_the_historical_existence_of_Jesus_Christ) The most useful bits in the New Testament are Jesus's ethical teachings, which the fundies give far less attention to than the myths (of salvation through belief in Christ, the resurrection, "prophecies" in Revelations), Paul's misogyny, and the Bronze Age rules in Leviticus. I'm hopeful that religion will become irrelevant in my lifetime.

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  15. Beldar Bison-Elbow Conehead2:14 PM

    "Wolf-Peter Funk, a noted Coptic linguist attending the same conference "

    Ok, number one, the guy's first name is "Wolf-Peter".

    Yeah, that's as far as I got. Sorry.

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  16. vegaslib2:19 PM

    I do not consider myself a christian, but I feel I'm a spiritual person. I don't look to the Bible as a factual book. I think it more a guideline for how people should behave.

    I am also very doubtful that somehow, somebody found one piece of paper that says Jesus was married. First off, I could care less if he was married or not.

    I do believe that Jesus lived and if I'm wrong, so be it. I think every person has their own beliefs and that is what makes us unique.

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  17. Anonymous8:26 PM

    You got that wrong. Please correct. It should have read "Baptist "professor"."
    Please.

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  18. Anonymous5:41 AM

    "Dr. Jim West is Adjunct Professor of Biblical Studies at the Quartz Hill School of Theology and Pastor of Petros Baptist Church, Petros, Tennessee. He holds a Doctorate of Theology from the unaccredited Andersonville Theological Seminary of Camilla, Georgia."

    The term "professor" suggests a level of academic authority. This man has no such authority.

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