Courtesy of the YouTube site:
The controlled study documented in these videos show that concealed carry permit holders are fooling themselves if they think they will be able to react effectively to armed aggressors. Most CCW holders won't even be able to un-holster their gun. They will more likely be killed themselves or kill innocent bystanders than stop the aggressor. For more details, see "Unintended Consequences: Pro-Handgun Experts Prove That Handguns Are a Dangerous Choice for Self-Defense.
This is longish, coming in at a little less than ten minutes (And this is just part one), but it is well worth your time and something that you can Facebook and tweet to all of your pro-gun relatives and friends that might just give them a few facts to chew on for a change.
I have a friend who was wounded in a school shooting and has been in law enforcement for 20-plus years. He called on Friday and said,among other things, tell anyone who thinks concealed carry would have helped in this case: if you pull a gun on someone who has his drawn, you have already lost.
ReplyDeleteI remember an interview with someone who was at the Tucson shooting. He was coming out of one of the stores in the mall right after the shots were fired. He's a gun owner but wasn't carrying.
He said in all of the commotion he noticed someone on the ground holding a pistol. He said if he had had his gun, and fired at the person with the weapon, which would have been his instinct, it would have been a disaster.
The person with the gun was one of several bystanders who had wrestled the shooter to the ground and disarmed him.
A Fan From Chicago
I remember that story. And when cops arrive, they will take out anyone holding a gun, and ask questions later...so you die either way.
Delete9:08, please don't comment on law enforcement tactics that you are unfamiliar with. Police officers do not automatically "take out" anyone who is holding a gun. A person who is holding or near a weapon is given the opportunity to surrender first. The majority of police officers I know/have known aren't in this line of work to kill people. They are here to protect.
DeleteThis is a very informative video. It clears up a lot of misconceptions..
ReplyDeleteI know far too many people who have concealed gun permits, and regularly carry. I've talked to them, and each one is under the fantasy that they would emerge as heroes, saving people. Some are old, out of shape, slow reflexes, in ill health. Some are young and and feel invincible. I don't see one of them being able to exchange gunfire with a gunman who already has their gun out, high on adrenalin, and focused on killing as many people as possible. They are living in a fantasy world. I truly think most people who are faced with someone shooting at them, would hide or run. I think it would be a rare everyday person who would stand their ground and exchange gun fire with a gunman.
ReplyDeleteI agree, they are living in a fantasy world. Think about the idiots that surround you: the ones who spend 10 minutes in line at the fast-food place, then when they finally get to the cashier and are asked for their order, stare blankly and say, "Uhhh, let me think." The same oblivious people who park their grocery cart in the middle of the aisle and stare blankly into space while people struggle to get around them. Do we really think these people would be any sort of deterrent against an assassin who's already thought out his plans? No, they would be caught flat-footed, then the shooter would calmly shoot them dead and take their weapon.
Delete'''I agree, they are living in a fantasy world. Think about the idiots that surround you:the ones who spend 10 minutes in line at the fast-food place, then when they finally get to the cashier and are asked for their order, stare blankly and say, "Uhhh, let me think." The same oblivious people who park their grocery cart in the middle of the aisle and stare blankly into space while people struggle to get around them.'''
DeleteThese people REALLY irritate me. LOL
It's only reasonable to see how hard it is to just whip out a gun in an instant and stop a shooter. Images of movie heroes pulling out a weapon out of their belt or inside jacket in a nano-second doesn't happen in real life.
ReplyDeleteThese guys should ask Clint Eastwood if this is feasible in real life; although lately he's been apt to talking to empty chairs.
Those kids would of had a better chance if principal Dawn Hochsprung, Mary Sherlach, or even one adult had a gun in that school. The coward shooter would think twice if there was even a chance he'd meet with armed conflict. Arming trained, law-abiding citizens is a useful deterrence. It's much better than advertising "gun-free" schools. How bout a sign "Our faculty may be armed." Much better chance there won't be armed conflict. Deal with the threat. Protect the kids.
ReplyDeleteYour theory is BS. Lanza's mother was armed and looked how she ended up.
DeleteI'm thinking most of the mass shooters are pretty suicidal, delusional and ready to die. I also know that you or a family member are more likely to be killed by your own gun than you are to kill an intruder with it. I know of no one who feels better at the thought that a teacher or administrator would be armed except people living in a fugue state.
DeleteThis more guns means more safety is stupid. I'm sure the Lanza
woman thought all of her guns made her safe. Until it didn't.
A case in point---Gabby Giffords. One of Giffords aides was
wrestling Loughner to the ground while a man across the parking lot who'd heard the shooting pulled out a gun---and aimed it at the aid wrestling the killer to the ground. He said he came a second from pulling the trigger. What about the NYC police officers who shot eight innocent people this past summer trying to get one person?
Do you really think shooting someone in a chaotic situation with a school full of children, teachers and staff is like a Bruce Willis movie----and all you have to be is trained? And by the way--the shooter was not a coward, he was a pathetic fucking psychopath who was well armed because of a mother who thought just like you do. Get it?
6:52...I don;t want you or your ideas anywhere near my grandkids' school I do not want them exposed to guns in any way shape or form. And since Lanza was not afraid of his mother and her arsenal, I fail to see where a principal caught unawares would have been able to shoot through his body armor. You are insane.
DeleteI'm a teacher and do not agree with what you think. However, I'm curious. How much hazard pay should we pay a teacher who volunteers to be the sharp shooter? How much training should he/she have? A weekend course? The same training a police officer has? Who is going to pay for this? Would the teacher have to qualify every school year? How would you determine if this teacher was trustworthy AND had the skills needed to bring down an armed gun man? Would there be intruder drills along the same line as a fire drill, but to see if the teacher does indeed have the kills to bring down a gunman? How would this affect this teachers students? Little kids scare easily. Would the armed teacher have to carry supplemental insurance? Who would pay for that? If the armed teacher didn't manage to take down the armed murderer, would that teacher be liable and sued by parents because she didn't do her job? All very valid questions I think. I'm eagerly awaiting your answers.
DeleteNot only hazard pay, but just imagine the amount of increased insurance a school system would have to carry to cover all their new "security guards." I'm not saying that there wouldn't be some teachers up to the task, but it's a horrible stretch to expect educators to be crack shots when faced with total mayhem. Now think how many parents would SUE if a teacher mistakenly shot some of his/her students dead or maimed them for life? Haven't yet heard this angle mentioned, but lawsuits are a big part of reality, and the Pseudo-John Wayne Baggers are flailing away in their own alternate plane.
DeleteGreat questions! Who will pay your life insurance as a sharp shooter teacher?
Delete7:14 I’m more concerned about Lanza mother being responsible for securing those weapons. Don’t trust the story just yet.
Delete8:20 Your right, more guns does not equal more safety. Just like more cars. If you do nothing about security or deterrence, this tragedy may happen again. Get it.
9:07 Kids do not have to be made aware of the security measures to protect them. Parents and grandparents may appreciate it though, especially in CT. Study deterrence. Nobody has to get shot, especially kids and teachers.
9:08 It’s paramount to safeguard the kids and teachers. The school administration can best figure security, insurance, etc. Sandy Hook and the state of CT have not only future lawsuits, suffering, but also death on their hands. I wish to deter this from happening in my community. It’s smarter that nobody gets shot and your scenarios are avoided.
Bull shit Anon @ 6:52AM. Any gin that was on school property would have been LOCKED UP in a cabinet or cupboard to prevent the students from attaining it. Only the person who was trained could have gotten to the gun. The steps needed:
ReplyDelete1. Actually determine the need, take the time to find out if it is guns or backfiring cars.
2. Get to the area the gun is stored (across the hall from the classroom the people were in, by the way directly in the line of fire).
3. Unlock the gun cabinet.
4. Load the gun.
5. Get back to where the bullets are flying and have the presence of mind not to hit anyone but the well armed, heavily protected gunman blasting away at your fellow teachers/admin and small children.
Now you go and try that, now right fucking NOW.
Deterence works right now. If it doesn't, an armed citizen has a much better chance defending against similar tragedy. What doesn't work is marketing "gun-free" schools. Scratch your procedures as they are a non-issue. A gunman will seek easier targets. Live and learn.
DeleteAgain BS, any guns on the school property would not be immediately available to the teachers or principal. They would be targets before they had a chance to get armed. NO ONE would ever allow anyone to walk around a school with a gun. Period. One small distraction and the gun is in a kid's hands and going off.
DeleteDeterrence only works if someone knows a gun is IMMEDIATELY available. Since no gun at a school would be, YOUR argument is invalid and stupid.
Wrong on armed security, wrong on deterrence. Most likely, wrong on your approach to do nothing and/or take guns away from law-abiding citizens.
DeleteWrong on armed security, wrong on deterrence. Most likely, wrong on your approach to safeguard kids and teachers in your community.
DeleteDuring this time of national mourning and concern for protecting and the well being of children, what is important to Bristol Palin?
ReplyDeleteShe missed the rodeo, didn't go to Disneyland, Bristol cares for Junker thrills because she is such a great competitor, according to Brancy.
WARNING: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/bristolpalin/2012/12/my-friend-joey-junker/
"I know what’s it’s like to be in an intense competition." Bristol is legend for not even half ass trying in the last stupid stars of DWTS but she knows extreme sports competition. Sure...
She will not hesitate to sell more product in the xtian way of Brancy.
Slednecks News: Snowmobiles, Superbikes, Outerwear, Freestyle
http://partyonwasilla.blogspot.com/2010/04/video-todd-palin-doing-his-part-okay_14.html
Slednecks are getting the Palin curse. Don't "break a leg" a neck or a back guys. Believe Bristol knows what it is like to be in intense competition, you know, like extreme sports?
http://partyonwasilla.blogspot.com/2010_04_10_archive.html
As her mother is selling a Hollywood series on her blog, Bristol is more the Alaskan frontier saleswoman.
"Slednecks makes outerwear, apparel, gear, clothing and snowmobiles." Bristol Palin, Sledneck promoter. “Live it like it’s your last!” Paul Thacker
Paul suffered an accident that left him without the use of his legs, now he has focused on the
Paul Thacker Spinal Cord Recovery
Bristiol is all about safety. She is a baby sitter, also, too.
DeleteA redneck hawking Sledneck...perfect. Loser Bristol and a man crippled in extreme sports. Boy, this company needs a new ad agency.
DeleteParty on Wasilla!
DeleteMost of the concealed weapons advocates that I know picture themselves as John Wayne, Clint Eastwood or Arnold Schwarzenegger when they talk about the benefits of carrying a gun. These people are my friends so I'm sorry but I think they would act more like Barney Fife of Gommer in a stress situation. I've seen them freeze in an emergency when a friend had a medical problem. Why they think they would react correctly while someone was hurling hot lead at them, I don't know.
ReplyDeleteMost of these folks talk a big game, but if it were to come down to it, they'd be standing there, piss running down their legs as they looked for the nearest bystander to use as a shield.
DeleteI know someone who gets off intimidating grocery shoppers showing his gun off. He had dreams of being a navy seal and later quit an army career intolerant of rules and authority. He relishes the thought of shooting someone to stand his ground.
Deleteanon at 10:09 am
DeleteI'm betting your friend was told he wouldn't be accepted if he tried to re-enlist, they don't keep everyone.
What the "F" is the video of the cop who shoots himself in the foot in front of kids??? First of all, he doesn't look like a cop to me with hair like that! But mostly, WHAT THE HELL IS HE DOING WITH A LOADED GUN IN A CLASSROOM???? If I was a parent and that happened at my kid's school I would sue!
ReplyDeleteGov. Snyder wants to allow guns in EVERY classroom in MI. If Sandy Hook had not happened, I'm sure he would have signed SB 59 last week. And I'm also sure ALEC, who wrote the law, is pressuring him to do it anyway. And if he does, his days as Governor are numbered. Not enough that he ends unions, abortion and women's rights. Now he wants people to shoot our children. Yes, the GOP loves fetuses, but the rest of the human race is just debris to them.
DeleteThe hair on that "cop" was a dead giveaway!
DeleteNext on the list is litigation reform.
I know isn't it amazing how the biggest loudmouth is the saddest coward? I had a terrible incident happen to me on New Years Eve a long time ago. I was with a girl friend and her boyfriend and we were heading into a house party (we didn't know the people we were with another group who did). All of sudden a gang of about 10 guys rushed out of the house with baseball bats and broken bottles. They swarmed on one of the guys in the group and beat him horribly. My friend's boyfriend took off his leather jacket, handed it to her and told us to go to the car. Then he ran into the fray to help out this guy (who was only an acquaintance). I started yelling for someone to call 911 as my girlfriend pulled me back to the car. On the way this poor guys "best friend" was crouching behind a car crying hysterically "don't let them get me." I was appalled at his cowardice. Once they could hear the sirens the thugs ran away and left this poor guy cut up and bloody. A neighbor came and gave me some paper towels and I convinced the guy to sit down and wait for the ambulance while I tried wipe the blood out of his eyes!! Everyone else just stood and watched or ran away. It wasn't long before the cops and EMT's arrived and took the guy to the hospital. My friend's boyfriend had to go to the hospital to get stitches in his forehead. Everyone likes to think they are brave but you don't know until your in a situation that calls on you.
ReplyDeleteThis entire "lets-just-arm-everyone" argument is utterly asinine. There is a reason that men and women who choose law enforcement as a career path have to endure extensive background checks, mental health screenings, and oral board style interviews. IT'S TO WEED OUT THOSE PEOPLE WHO HAVE NO BUSINESS WHATSOEVER CARRYING A FIREARM!
ReplyDeleteIf the RWNJ want to arm everyone, then they also need to require the same type of weeding out process AND training that law enforcement officers have to take. And guess what? It doesn't just end with a 6 week course of firearms nomenclature. Oh no. If you want to be responsible with carrying a deadly weapon you will have to take training courses and requalify with your firearm on a regular basis to prove that you still have the physical and mental ability to do so. This training includes scenarios that test your mental and physical abilities and put you in situations where you have to decide whether you will use your firearm or not. Scenarios that include innocent bystanders in dangerous situations. Oh, and be sure to get plenty of liability insurance as well, because if you use your firearm I can guarantee you that someone will be ready to sue. Just some more food for thought for all the idiots that think arming everyone will solve the problem! I carried a firearm in a law enforcement capacity for 10 years BTW.
Best. Response. Ever.
DeleteThank You!
I wasn't living in a fantasy world when my .38 saved my life by an whacked-out man who was intent on either killing me and those around me (my friends).
ReplyDeleteTwo decades later, my children are glad I stood up to my wannabe killer, as I lived through it and gave them birth. My husband and I take them to the rifle range and teach them how to safely handle firearms. One son is majoring in criminal justice and is interning with the local police department.
Growing up in Alaska in the '60s, '70s, and '80s, I actually took a rifle range class at Clark Junior High whereas we were required to handle and fire .22 rifles. No big deal. Then again, nobody was ANTI-DEPRESSANTS like most of today's school shooters are. Including one Adam Lanzo.
Was doesn't Jesse list the amount of people whose lives have been SAVED by guns? Well, Jesse? Google is your friend. And besides, all those gun control laws didn't help the citizens under Hitler, Mao, and Pol Pot (to list just a few), did they?
To me, Sandy Hook in a classic example of a psy-op that is another attempt at taking Americans' guns from them. OF COURSE, the deaths of these young children is horrible. THAT'S THE POINT! Wake the f*ck up!
I don't think you can blame anti-depressants for these shootings. How do you know what medications Adam Lanza was taking? That is confidential information. The nutty "uncle" that gave a disclosure is a tool of the NRA supporters. Don't believe everything you see on FOX.
DeleteYour last paragraph makes me question your ability to be safe with firearms. You have to be firmly in reality to make good decisions.
DeleteElizabeth 44
This is by FAR one of the dumbest videos in the history of anti-gun propaganda. They just give a random guy a couple hours of shooting and then place him in a scenario like that? Seriously? MORONS!!! The dude stood straight up and tried to pull the gun, I laughed so freakin hard I almost fell out of my chair. I would rather die trying to stop a shooter even if that means me stumbling for my gun. I hope our 2nd amendment right is not taken away from the American people.
ReplyDeleteWatch the whole thing. Even experienced shooters failed. It takes constant training to be able to act in crisis. Even a good shot at the rifle range does not have crisis training that is current.
DeleteWhat, watch the whole thing? That's infringing on a random someone's freedom...stopping them from pursuing happiness...
Deleteyou have people with gloves on trying to draw. Have any of them taken any lessons on CC or how to draw, How to take cover then check the situation? Id love to be in this room for this! Sorry shooter you would be dead!
ReplyDeleteIn real life Minnesota (and probably Alaska too), at least 6 months out of a year people are wearing gloves and heavy outerwear.
DeleteIt makes sense to me that most people who think they are going to be "Dirty Harry" or QuickDraw McGraw in a life-threatening situation will instead be too slow and fast dead.
How quick would you have to draw/aim/shoot a gun accurately enough to stop the latest massacre? Or the next?
There should also be instructions for all gun owners on how to secure their weapons, especially if they have mentally/emotionally unstable family member or friend.
ReplyDeleteThe shootings often occur after the shooter obtains weapons from family/friends who did not have the weapons properly secured.
I have a C&C permit and will always keep it, I have been stalked on and off since 1972. A crazy ex BF that I only went out with 2 times. He pops up every few years and promises to kill me, but never does enough to get arrested. I know he will keep on coming and if I don't see him first, I'll be dead.
ReplyDeleteDecades later, many moves later, it doesn't stop.
So please remember that a percentage of the C&C do it for real protection.
Grif-thank you so much for posting this. I have been saying this for months-oh god, years-this is proof positive, to me. I have been reading your blog since the Wasilla monster raised her pin head. I am now-as soon as I post this-going to "support alot".
ReplyDeleteThank You for sharing this, I'll be sending it out to everyone.
ReplyDeleteI've been screaming this for years as well. Firing a gun at a gun range is one thing, but when your body is under stress, you lose your motor skills and your body betrays your senses - it's like driving while impaired.
My first born came home for the first time since the tragedy. When she was a child, I was "teh crazy mom" who asked her friends parents if they had guns in the house and if they were secured, locked etc..". I used to get the "I hate your guts" look (Anyone who's a parent knows), eyerolls and the silent treatment if I forbade her from visiting.
I finally got my "Thanks for being a gun nazi" hug.
This is honestly a little silly. The scenario is not terribly realistic, for one thing, the 'bad guy' knows exactly who has a gun. I know several concealed carry permit holders (including my husband, although I have never actually seen him carry his gun)and they are all people who are very familar with the gun they would potentially carry. It stands to reason that the vast majority of people who would bother to get a permit to legally carry a firearm would want to be familiar and comfortable with it for their own safety. This is another reason the video is not really reflective of reality - they just hand someone a random gun and holster they aren't familiar with.
ReplyDeleteAnother thing to think about while you disparage the idea of individuals with guns making any sort of difference in a mass shooting - it took the police 20 (!!!) minutes to respond in CT. That's a really long time. Maybe having someone armed would have helped, maybe it would have been a deterrent.
Here are some additional facts on mass shootings you might want to check out with an open mind: http://dailyanarchist.com/2012/07/31/auditing-shooting-rampage-statistics/
In many of the cases, the intervening civillians were not carrying weapons at all, but there is no reference to someone intervening and accidentally killing innocent bystanders. And in only one case was the intervening civillian killed.