Monday, January 14, 2013

Misrepresenting the 2nd Amendment. There was never an intent for an individual right to bear arms.

Earlier today somebody sent me this link, which I read an found most intersting.

Here is a portion of what it said:  

The United States Congress was enforcing the idea that state militias of private citizens were the best form of military because they knew that it's nearly impossible for the citizens to rise up against an organized, professional military. A military like the one the British had, a military like the one we have today. A military that the citizens could not possibly overthrow. 

This is also why, up until recently, all case law has allowed the states to regulate arms. It is clear what the founders intended. They did not intend to take regulation away from the states, in fact the opposite is true, just as they did not intend to have a professional national military. 

After the revolution we were a confederacy of 14 separate individual states (yes, 14, I am counting Vermont). That didn't work, so we got a new constitution, our current one, and we became more like one state, and now we are as one state, not fifty. 

If the states decide to license all gun owners, or have ownership requirements, such as training, then that is the right of the state. It could be argued that such is also the right of Congress. 

It's clear that the Second Amendment, much like the Third Amendment, and like the wording of Article I, Section 8, is arcane. The Constitution was not handed down by a divine power, nor was it inspired by one. In particular, the Second Amendment was to ensure that the federal government could wage war, but the military power would be preserved to the individual states. Thinking along those lines has long since been abandoned. 

What is particularly interesting about the Second Amendment debate is that it puts conservatives on the wrong side of the big government argument. They don't like big government telling the states what to do, except when big government wants to tell the states that they can't regulate firearms, or allow people to get gay married. It's an absurd contradiction, to say the very least. In fact, the very amendment that conservative justices on the Supreme Court used to push guns, the 14th, is one that many prominent conservatives would like to see repealed. 

Anyone for states’ rights should be in support of the state having the ability to regulate the arms of its own residents and the sale of firearms and ammunition within its own borders. Anyone against activist judges should decry the recent Supreme Court interpretations of the Second Amendment, as it is far from what its authors intended. It was designed for national security. 

We in the United States no longer have amateur militias. We have professional police and the most advanced, and most expensive by far, military in the history of the known universe. 

I can't say with certainty whether Madison would approve of America's 21st century war machine, but I can say for sure that if he were here today he would reject the Supreme Court's interpretation, and be puzzled as to why the United States isn't fighting the epidemic of gun violence that we alone suffer from in the ranks of modern and free nations. 

Currently there is an incredible amount of passion and misinformation on the topic of the intent behind the 2nd Amendment (Hell even Bill Fulton and I argued about it he other day.), however I feel confident that if the Founding Fathers were to suddenly wake up out of their deadly slumber to what we are dealing with today, they would immediately tear up that Amendment and rewrite it from scratch.  And I seriously doubt it would have much resemblance to the one we have been dealing with for the last two hundred plus years.

Don't you agree?

31 comments:

  1. Anonymous1:19 PM

    What gets me, lately, is the emphasis on 'God Given Second Amendment Right to Bear Arms'...when did the
    God Given' enter the discourse?

    Well, right here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oWsE9jvwjLA

    Newt Gingrich giving a speech to the NRA about a year ago. Watching him create the narrative is chilling...

    Aurora

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    1. Kimosabe2:04 PM

      God enters the discourse here:

      ... and they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights ...

      fella named Jefferson.

      Delete
    2. JKarov2:38 PM

      The US Constitution is our founding document. Doesn't matter much what Thomas Jefferson may have written about any of his personal views or faith.

      The US Constitution does not mention God, Jesus, the bible, the Creator, or natural law. In fact, the founders of our nation made it obvious that everyone, regardless of religion, can be elected and serve the people.

      That's the evidence of why we are a SECULAR Republic, not a Christian theocracy.

      Evidence:

      Article 6, paragraph 3 of the Constitution

      Quote:

      "But no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States."

      Got that? Under the Constitution, even an atheist or agnostic can legally be President, and the Founding fathers wanted it so

      What does matter to Constitutional conservatives, myself included, is adhering to the only legal document that is the basis for all our policy and law, and our State laws.

      Don't try to imply that "God" is behind your right to an assault weapon with a 30 round clip.

      Delete
  2. angela1:19 PM

    "Well regulated militia".
    We don't seem to have that---huh?

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  3. I do agree. When the 2nd amendment was written, weapons were single shot muskets and cannons. The Founders were not imagining a world with automatic weapons with multi-shot clips on the streets of our cities and the murder of 5 year-old children in their classrooms!

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    1. Anonymous2:09 PM

      No, but they were VERY concerned about "savages" on the frontier murdering 5 year-olds. In 1779 at the "Battle" of Conoshaugh native allies of the British attacked a school near Milford, PA, killing the teacher and 13 children. No assault rifles were involved.

      Delete
    2. Anonymous3:54 PM

      @2:09
      Those "savages" were freedom fighters, protecting their original inalienable rights endowed by THEIR Creator.

      Delete
  4. Anonymous1:31 PM

    Here we go about the Bill of Rights. You have freedom of speech, but that does not give you the right to spew lies, defaming someone else. That does not give you the right to shout "Fire" in a crowded theater. (There will be a riot, and people will get crushed, trying to get out). There are limits on your freedom of speech. (And I don't care that Track is over there in Afghanistan defending freedom of speech. There are limits, not matter what Track is doing).

    The same thing could be applied to the right of the people to assemble peacefully. There are crowd limits in restaurants and pubic places, placed there by the local fire authorities. Occupancy of too many people will create the same crush of humanity trying to get out in case of a fire or other emergency. You can't pack too many people in an elevator, or it just won't go.

    Freedom of the press is not carte blanche to print anything. The newspaper have decided not the print the names of minors involved in a crime. They won't print information about an on-going kidnapping for fear of endangering the safety of the kidnapped child. There is sensitive information from a war zone which is not carried in the media for security reasons. Freedom of the press has its limits, too.

    Using that line of thinking, people are certainly entitled to own a rifle to for target practice, for hunting or for the original purpose, to be part of a militia. In those days, the volunteer army of boys and men of any age defended the borders against Canadians (sorry, neighbors), against Native Americans (sorry we took your land), the Spanish, the French, the British, you get the idea.

    Individuals are not allowed to own surface-to-air weapons, cannons, nuclear material, there are limits to what kinds of weapons that people can own. Limiting the number of bullets in a magazine does not prevent you from owning bullets. Prohibiting individuals from owning assault weapons does not infringe on their rights to own an ordinary rifle. Sorry, but if you can't hit Bambi with the first couple of shots, the animal will be torn to shreds after you fire a hundred shots from an assault weapon. That's not sport. That's carnage. Go play a video game, instead.

    We have the right to own a car, but we have to prove that we know how to drive it. It is registered and so is the driver. There are periodic tests to make sure that you can still drive, and you have to have insurance in case of any accident. The same rules could apply to gun control.

    You can drive your car, but you cannot drive it a hundred miles an hour over private property, hitting people and things. There are limits. The limits are set so that we can all live together as peacefully as possible. It's hard enough for everybody to get along, without having to worry about somebody shooting up a movie theater or fast food place with a rapid fire assault weapon.

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  5. Anonymous1:49 PM

    NRA launches iPhone shooting app for 4 year olds, only 3 weeks after Sandy Hook

    In a somewhat creepy, and certainly tone-deaf, move, the NRA recently launched an iPhone game app that kids can use to shoot coffin-like targets.

    And the game is rated for kids aged “4+” – meaning, 4 year olds and up. Four year olds? Seriously?

    http://americablog.com/2013/01/nra-launches-kids-iphone-app-only-3-weeks-after-sandy-hook.html

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    1. Anonymous3:22 PM

      This kind of pisses me off because I can't get any porn on my iPhone but really, we can have shit like this? If Steve was still alive he'd never let this pass muster.

      Delete
    2. Anita Winecooler8:19 PM

      LOD did a segment on this app - truly pathetic, you shoot at coffin shaped "targets" with heads or chests drawn on their lids.

      How warped is that?

      Delete
  6. Olivia1:49 PM

    I keep asking gun nuts about the "well regulated militia" part and I usually get crickets or "Huh?"

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  7. Anonymous1:50 PM

    Don't agree. And neither did the founding fathers as witnessed by these quotes. Work all you want on keeping arms from criminals and mentally unfit people. Leave the rest of us alone.

    "Americans have the right and advantage of being armed – unlike the citizens of other countries whose governments are afraid to trust the people with arms." – James Madison

    "The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed." – Alexander Hamilton

    "To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them." – Richard Henry Lee 1788

    "To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them." – George Mason

    "Laws that forbid the carrying of arms... disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man." - Thomas Jefferson's "Commonplace Book," 1774-1776, quoting from On Crimes and Punishment, by criminologist Cesare Beccaria, 1764

    "Are we at last brought to such humiliating and debasing degradation that we cannot be trusted with arms for our defense? Where is the difference between having our arms in possession and under our direction, and having them under the management of Congress? If our defense be the real object of having those arms, in whose hands can they be trusted with more propriety, or equal safety to us, as in our own hands?" - Patrick Henry

    The constitutions of most of our States assert that all power is inherent in the people; that... it is their right and duty to be at all times armed." --Thomas Jefferson

    "We should not forget that the spark which ignited the American Revolution was caused by the British attempt to confiscate the firearms of the colonists." - Patrick Henry

    "The Constitution shall never be construed … to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms." – Samuel Adams

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    1. Anonymous4:56 PM

      You can own arms, but why do you need an assault rifle, or for that matter an extended bullet magazine that holds more than 7 rounds? No where in the Bill of Rights does it said that your allowed to own an assault rifle or an extended magazine. Currently you can't legally own a machine or submachine gun without a license from the Federal government. They outlawed assault rifles and high capacity magazines for all pistols and rifles using by an Executive Order, and they can easily do it again. The Supreme Court didn't interfere with that order, and what Justice Roberts has recently been stating sounds as if the SCOUS would go beyond that. Time will tell, but the opinion of what the NRA believes on the 2nd Amendments is delusional. Besides, I believe the NRA is primarily interested in the gun manufactures than the gun owners interest.

      Delete
    2. Anonymous8:49 AM

      http://fakehistory.wordpress.com/2011/01/25/madison-and-the-advantage-of-being-armed/

      POP goes your bubble

      Delete
  8. OverMountainMan2:04 PM

    Damn ? I was beginning to think that I was the only person who believed in this interpretation , But I am having a problem with this from the link " the meaning of the amendment was changed by the courts to grant citizens a broad right to firearms. " I've read Scalias opinion on Heller v McDonald aka Heller v DC and in it Scalia says that his opinion on the Individual was meant for this case and this case alone and shouldn't used in the wider content, So that tells me that the law wasn't changed in the bigger conversation of the individual but that snippet gets ignored and has been accepted, It shouldn't.

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  9. Boscoe2:14 PM

    Umm... it's pretty clear that the second amendment says, in so many words, that THE PEOPLE have the right to keep and bear arms so that if the need arises, they can be formed into a "well regulated militia".

    What other posters have clearly pointed out with actual quotes from the founding fathers, is that the very idea of the second amendment was to draw a line at gun ownership as a means of discouraging tyranny.

    The founding fathers really did have the intent that the government served at the will of the people and needed to understand at all times that it could be brought down in the event that it turned against us. The very point of guranteeing us gun ownership was to send a message to future configurations of our government that it needed to watch it's ass or risk being dismantled by "we the people".

    Now personally, I don't think the current administration is overstepping it's bounds, but the idea that some DO, is an example of the system working the way it should, engendering a dialog on difficult subjects. It is only the constant questioning of EVERYTHING that our system remains sound. It is extremist viewpoints, on either end of the spectrum, that are the enemies of liberty.

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  10. Anonymous2:16 PM

    Republican Paul Ryan Protects Rapists’ Rights in New Fetus Bill

    You know how just doesn’t have enough rights in this country? You guessed it, rapists. Thank goodness House Republicans are here to look after these put-upon American citizens.

    As much of the nation focuses on the Steubenville gang rape story, your failed Republican Vice Presidential candidate Paul Ryan (R-WI) was busy protecting rapists’ rights. Buried deep in the latest Fetus Rights Bill (aka, Sanctity of Human Life Act , H.R. 23: To provide that human life shall be deemed to begin with fertilization), wherein feti are given more rights than the women carrying them, is a section that will allow a rapist to sue his victim in order to stop her from getting an abortion, specifically if she were trying to get an abortion in a state that allows them while she lives in a state that does not.

    Yes, the rapist can sue to stop the abortion caused by the rape he perpetrated upon an unwilling female. Laura Beck at Jezebel points out, “Her rapist could theoretically sue to stop the abortion from happening, and probably win.”

    This explains why Ryan was so busy listening to his iPod during the fiscal cliff negotiations. He has only introduced two bills that have passed over his entire 13 year career, one dealing with an excise tax for arrows and the other renaming a post office. His only other purpose in Congress is to keep reintroducing the Fetus Rights bill in order to avoid doing the math on his budget. Ryan started off the 113th congress with a bang by introducing his bill yet again.

    It’s great that rapists have a voice in D.C., because what they crave the most is more power and control over their victims – and what better way to achieve that than to reward a rapist with the power to force his victim to carry his fetus to term. Representative Ryan has managed to incentivize rape.

    more

    http://www.politicususa.com/paul-ryan-protects-rapists-rights-fetus-bill.html

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  11. The key question with all policies of prohibition is: how far are you willing to go to punish those who disagree, and will those presumably effective coercive actions lead to greater civil harmony.

    In my view, we (the US) ended slavery horribly, with a devastating war and no plan for the future (ergo the Civil Rights issues almost a century later, and continuing today).

    I'm not arguing slavery wasn't wrong humanly, morally and economically (it was), nor that the state (preferably at the state level) shouldn't regulate guns (I agree with the state's rights arguments of the post), the question is how, as a practical matter, such change is accomplished.

    A war to end gun ownership would be ideologically silly and humanly horrific.

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  12. Anonymous2:35 PM

    The free militias are our state national guards.

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    1. Anonymous3:19 PM

      Yeah, right. These nut bag gun freaks spend more time drinking beer than they do on physical fitness and actual military training. I'll take my chances defending myself with a 2x4 before I feel comfortable with the fat redneck gun nuts being my "national guard".

      Delete
    2. Anonymous6:57 PM

      Anon 3:19

      I agree. I have a revolver that I purchased 20+ years ago for a specific threat, that I keep in a safe and have never needed to use, other than firing at the range a few times. But my first line of self-defense is a golf club, a 2-iron that a friend said he never wanted to see again after plunking a couple of balls in the lake when we were playing years ago. It's in the umbrella stand next to the fireplace, and I grab it as I walk out to use as a walking stick when I'm walking the dog. I've never had to use the steel head on anyone yet, but I did have to poke an aggressive dog on his nose with the rubber grip end, after he broke off a neighbor's leash and came after my chihuahua. I saved his dog a lot of butt hurt and embarrassment by scaring him off, because my 7-lb beast was all bowed up, ready for show time.

      I guess a true gun nut would've been carrying concealed, drawn and shot both dogs, and then called the local Fox affiliate to come and do an interview to profile him as a hero. A coward stands his ground with a gun when a couple of choice words and a mean look will do. But common sense doesn't make the news, only ignorant, smack-talking rednecks wailing about somebody taking their guns away. They need to get a grip and be a man, not a scared punk.

      Delete
  13. JKarov2:44 PM

    I own firearms for self defense, but I am in favor of having background checks for mental health and criminal records for all weapons purchased, even at gun shows.

    I know many cops & firefighters who are in favor of that policy.

    Right now, the Feds already restrict silencers, full automatic weapons, length of barrels, and many other categories of firearms

    The NRA and other gun groups accept that we prohibit grenades, or rocket launchers, or M60 heavy machine guns legal.

    So how then is it going to hurt your deer hunting or target practice if you have to accept 10 round clips instead of 50's?

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    1. Anonymous7:12 PM

      If they need that many rounds for sport, they're not much of a sportsman. I guess those fools really need a shoulder launch SAM Stnger Missle like the ones that we (Rummie, Dick, and some of the boys at Langley) gave to Osama when he was a "freedom fighter" in Afganistan before he became the boogie man. They were a bargain at only around $30K a pop in those days. Too bad the mujahadeen still had a few of those left over when the US tried to do the same as what the Soviets had done. But I digress. If the infrared will lock in on a big trophy buck the same as it will on a heelio-copter, it should only take one clean shot. Might be a challenge for the taxidermist though. Now there's you some 2nd Amendment remedies. /s

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  14. Pat in MA4:45 PM

    What the paranoid yahoos screaming "2nd amendment rights" don't get is that the intention was to allow citizens to bear arms so that there would be a 'well regulated militia' in place to protect the security of the EXISTING government (free state), not to attack it! We have a well regulated militia now - it's called the US Armed Forces.

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    1. Anonymous6:43 PM

      armed forces and military not even close to the same thing as a militia. and for the rest of you on assault weapons and magazines- noone ever said the 2nd amendment applied to hunting.

      Delete
  15. Leland5:18 PM

    There are probably over fifty articles of this sort on BOTH sides of the argument. None of them have a corner on fallacies or facts. About the only thing I find they all have in common is the tendency to ignore the valid arguments of the other side.

    It is known, however, that the writers of the Constitution were in fact highly educated people (for their times) in history and philosophy. Their quotes have been used by both sides, as one entry clearly shows here in this thread.
    And events such as Agincourt were in the Father's minds and that is also a fact.

    Why Agincourt? Because without the English law requiring ALL able bodied men be proficient with the Long Bow, the French would have won that battle. There simply was not enough time to train the "soldiers" the King took with him. A very critical lesson.

    Oh. And for those of you screaming about this weapon or that weapon having the potential for the destruction of Mankind (and I am NOT talking about NUCLEAR weapons or gas or biological crap!), the Long bow once was considered in that category, as was the cross bow.


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  16. Anonymous5:25 PM

    I'm confident the writers of the Constitution never contemplated whether citizens could have Uzi, assault rifles, grenades, cluster bombs, or nuclear weapons.

    As I read the 2nd A, it might give a constitutional right to a musket and cannon. I'll live with that regardless of wehther it is an individual or collective right.

    However, if the government can decide that citizens can't have grenades or cluster bombs or nuclear weapons, what is the rationale for excluding them, but including assault rifles? The only line I can find is
    1. muskets and cannons
    and/or
    2. The state can decide what is necessary for a well-regulated militia.
    I can't find an individual right to assault rifle, automatic weapons, etc.
    Lucy

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  17. Anonymous8:05 PM

    Our right to bear arms is also to protect against abusive government. Our government is anything but by the people for the people. Once the people realize our government has been hijacked and is using methods to manipulate and control, we the people need to take our government back. I'd like to believe it's possible, certainly more so by arming citizens.

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  18. Anonymous7:12 AM

    "Firearms stand next in importance to the constitution itself. They are the American people's liberty teeth and keystone under independence … from the hour the Pilgrims landed to the present day, events, occurences and tendencies prove that to ensure peace security and happiness, the rifle and pistol are equally indispensable … the very atmosphere of firearms anywhere restrains evil interference — they deserve a place of honor with all that's good."
    George Washington
    First President of the United States

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  19. Anonymous6:11 PM

    The Federalist Papers, No. 28: Alexander Hamilton expressed that when a government betrays the people by amassing too much power and becoming tyrannical, the people have no choice but to exercise their original right of self-defense — to fight the government.[Halbrook, p. 67]

    The Federalist Papers, No. 46: James Madison contended that ultimate authority resides in the people, and that if the federal government got too powerful and overstepped its authority, then the people would develop plans of resistance and resort to arms. [Halbrook, p. 67]

    Thanks for playing :)

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