I occasionally get asked how I could be so arrogant as to be an Atheist.
And my response is "The same way you can arrogantly be an Atheist."
This unerringly elicits an angry denial and a declaration that they are a Bible believing, God fearing Christian.
"So in which god do you believe?" I ask.
"What do you mean which god?"
"Well do you believe in Ganesha, Neptune, Osiris, or Jupiter?"
"No! None of those! I believe in the one true God. The Christian God!"
"Oh so you believe in the Christian god, Yahweh, but not any of those others. Did I hear that right?"
"Yes."
"So would you say that you are not absolutely certain that those other gods don't exist? Or are you still open to the possibility that someday you might believe in one or more of them?"
"What kind of a stupid question is that? I KNOW they don't exist, they are only myths. Nobody in their right mind would believe in something so ridiculous."
"I see. So let me ask you, how can you be so arrogant, so filled with certainty that you would dismiss the beliefs of people who died in battle with a prayer to these gods on their lips, who dedicated their lives to proselytizing on their behalf, in other words to be an atheist when it comes to so many gods, who have been worshiped by so many millions of people?"
That is pretty much the end of the discussion.
Oh there is some sputtering, occasionally some name calling, but all in all the actual conversation is finished.
Nice!
ReplyDeleteOf course, it doesn't do any GOOD since they are too stupid to recognize the truth of the argument.
And it could actually lead to violence - because they are too stupid to recognize the truth of the argument!
They don't like it when you use logic the throw their own arguments in the faces! Logic hurts their brains.
It is amazing, Leland, how angry and violent people get when you ask them to look at their belefs objectively. I wonder if it is because they are scared. Without that foundation, they have to take a chance on themselves, on life, and on living life with no quarantees. It can be scary, but it can also be liberating. I wish we could all just accept that none of us have any answers, but that we are all just seekers, trying to live our lives in a meaningful and productive way. It seems a pity that those who are frightened by that realization want to vvforce us all to be as afraid of life as they are.
DeleteActually, 5:59, for the most part I don't really blame them for it. (Unless, of course, they come after ME!) I understand that the majority of them really had no chance to avoid their problem. They have been so flooded with this crap since birth that it is tantamount to brain washing.
DeleteAnd fear is a great part of that training. Fear and being taught never to doubt what they are "taught".
My sister-in-law actually stopped a letter I sent to her daughter, my niece, in which I congratulated her on her recent graduation from high school. When my niece actually found the letter she naturally went ballistic and demanded to know why it had been hidden. (My niece is over 18, so what the mother did is highly illegal!)
Her answer? "I didn't like that he told you to question everything!"
Now, my niece is not stupid. She, in fact, was third in her class and has earned a major scholarship. And that comment from her mother literally started her on the path to learning about what she has been taught from birth. And in three weeks she has gone from a firm believer to a serious questioner.
I can't wait to say to her mother: "Smooth move, Exlax!"
One of my favorite lines in a movie is from "Kung Fu Panda". That line is very thought provoking to most people. It is: "One often meets his destiny on the road one takes to avoid it." I would tell my SIL that, but I'm afraid she wouldn't get it.
Leland, you sound pretty angry yourself.
DeleteLeland, I had an in-law that lived in a retirement home. He was always laughing about the fact that the older the resident, the stronger the religious belief. Meaning the deadline to apply for Heaven was fast approaching!
Delete@9:22
DeleteWhen it comes to someone violating Federal law by waylaying a letter addressed to an adult and not addressed to the waylayer? Yes. I'm angry.
When it comes to the reason she stopped that letter? Yes. I am angry.
When it comes to the ignorance and stupidity that directly affect me because she essentially called me a "bad influence"? Yes. I am angry.
When it comes to what my niece is going to eventually do to her mother's idiotic, blind and controlling ideas? No. I am not angry, I am ecstatic. That girl was actually SHOVED, by her mother, into learning just how ridiculous what she was taught actually is. And that is a good thing.
Why will my niece do this? Because she IS an adult and the parents do NOT have the same rights now they once did and she knows it. (Oh, they have rights, to be sure, but what the mother did is no longer one of them!)
Also, she will do this BECAUSE her mother stopped a letter to her AS AN ADULT! She may not be what we older folks call completely mature, but she is legally an adult and has every right WE do.
And violating those rights makes me angry, also, just as if ANY person was beaten by the police or railroaded in court or any violation of anything WE take for granted as rights.
Does that answer your insinuation?
@ 11:03
DeleteI love a good sense of humor!
I always find it ludicrous that people are horrified when someone who is not a believer refuses to make a statement on the death bed. Like Christopher Hitchens.
And I find it disgusting that some so-called religions claim they can baptize someone postmortem. Funny, too, though.
Anon @ 9:22, Leland sounds totally rational and in command. (I wish he were my neighbor!) Perhaps you are the angry one, having just read about someone actually indulging in the obscene "t" word (think), and not just BELIEVING what some charlatan in a assbackwards collar tells him to think. You're realizing you've been had all your life.
DeleteAnon at 5:59, as some have alluded to here also, the reason people with certain beliefs resist logical analysis is b/c it is built into the belief system to control people: "But this is not a logical thing...does not yield to the reason of man, but requires that we believe with out evidence, etc, yadda yadda." (to paraphrase) Very clever construction for initial control of the serfs back in the day (IMO). Peace.
DeleteIf it was that easy.
ReplyDeleteI decided some,years ago,that if "God" exhibits the characteristics that make him "God"...."Omniscience..etc....he flunked Creation 101..furthermore...his unapologetic nature is a bad precedent for impressionable humans....a flawed role model...just sayin'...
ReplyDeleteIn Stunning Admission, Pope Confirms The Presence Of ‘Gay Lobby’ In The Vatican
ReplyDeletehttp://www.addictinginfo.org/2013/06/12/in-stunning-admission-pope-confirms-the-presence-of-gay-lobby-in-the-vatican/
I sturggle with the same questions that atheists struggle with. However, the problem for me is that I have always had a strong belief in a supreme being. I can remember back to when I was about four and having this connection with him/her. My parents weren't religious. I was never forced to go to church or Sunday school. I was never indoctrinated. I was given complete freedom to choose my own spiritual path. So where did it come from? I definitely don't believe in the Old Testament. And, I also think it is arrogant for anyone to think a supreme being only is interested in people of one faith. Stupid really. Humanity is greatly diversified. Why wouldn't religions be diversified? I also think everything wrong and evil with religion is because man got in there and mucked it up, just like we muck up everything else with our "superior" arrogant intelligence. Really, we're just a bunch of schmucks.
ReplyDeleteA belief or connection in a "supreme being" could have "come from" a number of different paths.
Delete(1) The supreme being may be an idealized version of one's parents. We are all born helpless and dependent on our parents for our very survival, a powerful phenomenon that our human brains may adapt and interpret as a connection to an all-powerful, helpful, loving and guiding supreme being. You could have grown up in complete isolation and still have created that "connection."
(2) Through many generations, humans who more often obeyed authority may have survived in greater numbers, evolving humans who are more susceptible to belief in higher authorities. As civilizations organized and grew, these beliefs were organized into religious institutions. Today, almost all humans have had some exposure to religious beliefs, merely from common culture. Coupled with the natural characteristics of the human brain, non-religious people may end up attracted to "God" and religious beliefs, even if they are not indoctrinated as children.
I would direct you to Richard Dawkins on youtube for much, much more.
Sounds to me like you have a strong PERSONAL FAITH and I am happy for you. It also sounds as though you do not practice any organized religion, have an open mind and like to THINK!
DeleteCongratulations.
Speak for yourself ! -:)
DeleteWhat if there is a conspiracy among all the "Gods" and they have had a lot of fun at our expense, letting us fight and kill in each of their names? Or what if there is an alien race that is conducting an experiment on earth and we are their personal "ant farm" for observation? Or what if there is no supreme being or god or alien or other crutch for humans to blame for all their imaginings and impulses and anger? Just what if...
ReplyDelete"Or what if there is an alien race that is conducting an experiment on earth and we are their personal "ant farm" for observation?"
DeleteThis has been my personal theory since I was a kid. I do think watching Horton Hears a Who helped shape my belief system.
Given the size of the universe, what are the chances that "God" had to send another son (or daughter) to save another similar civilization from itself? Exactly how many civilizations, in different stages of evolution, developed belief systems like ours.
ReplyDeleteMore prosaically, how many sports teams does "God" have to look out for in the vastness of space?