Friday, July 05, 2013

Religious faith cannot protect you from prosecution. Especially for murdering your own child.

Courtesy of NBC News: 

A deeply religious Wisconsin couple who prayed over their dying daughter rather than seek medical help were properly convicted of homicide, the state Supreme Court decided Wednesday. 

Kara Neumann, 11, of Weston, Wis., died March 23, 2008 — Easter Sunday — of complications of untreated juvenile onset diabetes. 

According to the case records, Kara had been showing symptoms of exhaustion and dehydration for more than a week, but her parents, Dale and Leilani Neumann, refused to take her to a pediatrician, and decided to respond to her illness with prayer, not medicine. 

A pediatrician testified that Kara's disease was highly treatable and that her chances of survival were high until "well into the day of her death." 

The Neumanns don't belong to any particular church, but they identify as Pentecostals, according to factual findings in the court record, none of which the Neumanns disputed. Some Pentecostals — but by no means all — believe that prayer and strong religious belief can cure all illnesses, a tradition that helped give rise to famous "faith healers" like Oral Roberts and Benny Hinn.

Sometimes I think that certain people should not be allowed to breed. And these kind of religious zealots are at the top of that list.

The depth of their religious deception was incredible.

Dale Neumann testified that he knew Kara was sick but never thought she might die. In fact, he testified that he thought that Jesus would bring her back from the dead, as he did with Lazarus in the Gospel of John. 

That is pathological. 

And the Benny Hinns and Oral Roberts of the world are complicit in reinforcing that pathology, and should be punished accordingly.

31 comments:

  1. I don't disagree with anything in this post.

    But, however pathologically and wrongheadedly, this couple was at least striving to save their daughter (I fully agree with the charges and conviction).

    Why do the parents of children killed by guns in the house that were left within reach, or were loaded, or were not locked, or were not locked away, or all of the above, get a free pass because "it was an accident" and "they've suffered enough"?

    No, these are not accidents. They are or should be acts of criminal negligence and show that the parents involved just really don't care much about the lives of their children.

    With all rights come responsibilities. When are we going to start hearing about the responsibilities of owning a gun?

    I would like to see similar articles relating to the deaths of children killed by their parents' pathological allegiance to their guns over the life of their child.

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    Replies
    1. Anonymous4:43 AM

      Totally agree with you, Nefer!

      Delete
    2. Anonymous5:06 AM

      Fully agree. Careless parents cause their children's deaths by leaving guns around the house loaded. Charge some, and maybe the rest will learn? I doubt it, anyone THAT stupid never learns anything. Too bad innocent children have to die. These religious zealots really need to have mental evaluations. I fail to see how any rational adult can believe that prayer solves everything. If it did, those of us who prayed for the gop to go to hell would have been happy YEARS ago.

      Delete
    3. Anonymous7:37 AM

      This wasn't any different, they knew their daughter was very, very ill and CHOSE not to seek help for her. That girl suffered a horrible death, it is not any better than a shooting, in fact, was probably much worse for the girl. Quit making excuses for horrid parents that kill their children.

      Delete
    4. Anonymous9:06 AM

      It's apples and oranges, but both equal neglect. Unforgivable and punishable by law.

      Delete
    5. Anonymous7:37 AM
      ...Quit making excuses for horrid parents that kill their children.
      **************************
      I was not making excuses for the parents. They were not trying to kill her, and they thought they were actively trying to save her. But I believe they were inexcusably wrong and deserved to be tried and convicted (as I said in my comment).

      My point was that parents whose carelessness with guns results in the death of their child should be equally charged and convicted.

      And I certainly wouldn't try to compare the death of one child to another and try to decide which one was worse!

      Delete
  2. Anonymous6:07 AM

    Untreated diabetes is no fun, that poor little girl suffered so badly and so needlessly. Sad :(

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  3. GO DIRECTLY TO PRISON…

    This could take out at least half of the population of Texas… HOORAH!!!

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    Replies
    1. Anonymous9:07 AM

      They are led by example. Their Governor sanctions a government event to pray for rain rather than take action through policy to provide relief to the State.

      Delete
  4. Randall6:08 AM

    Not long ago - just last week, as a matter of fact - I was having a conversation with a woman about Apollo 13.
    When those astronauts were in danger of not making it back, she remembered that "the whole world was praying for their safe return" and SHE believes that THAT was what saved them. The prayers.

    NOT the mathematics.
    NOT the science.
    NOT the engineering.

    She believes that wishing really hard is what saved those guys.

    ...Jesus Christ.

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    Replies
    1. Anonymous9:16 AM

      Then it stands to reason, that national pray away Trig's Down syndrome day should have worked also too there and whatnot.

      Delete
  5. Anonymous6:20 AM

    Religious fanaticism is just another form of mental illness. Half of congress is totally nuts including the entire tea party caucus.

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  6. Anonymous6:27 AM

    The word murder is sensationalizing. These people did not murder their child. It's not as though they beat her to death as a result of strict Christian disciplining or offered her as a sacrifice in a satanic ritual.

    They have other children as well and there has never been any history of abuse or neglect. They are now having trouble making ends meet because all the negative press has caused a drop off in business for the small coffee shop that they ran. These people loved their daughter and truly believed their god would save her. Their grief is real.

    In addition to all the pain and hardship, I'm sure they are confused as to why their god would abandon them when their faith was so strong. Although they didn't give her medical attention, they did not neglect her and tended to her in the way they believed best. They prayed strongly and continuously and begged others to do so too.

    These people may be simple-minded, but they are not hate-filled crazy Westboro Baptist types and they are not murderers. Pity them, but please don't vilify them.

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    1. Anonymous7:38 AM

      Of course they murdered her.

      Delete
    2. Anonymous9:11 AM

      I'm sure this sympathy would be applied to people of other faiths or colors?

      Didn't think so.

      Delete
    3. Anonymous9:11 AM

      I hope if I (God Forbid) ever need an idiot juror on my side, you are on the list.

      Delete
    4. Anonymous9:13 AM

      Anon 6:27, does that take away that their daughter and her siblings saw her in incredible pain that ended in death throes? They can pray over their financial books, their coffee and inventory, but they let their creation die needlessly.

      Delete
    5. Anonymous9:17 AM

      You might be correct about what the parents believed, but we as a society cannot put *our faith* in those who cannot discern the difference between appropriate level of action versus hoping for a particular outcome. I don't want these people as safety officers, teachers, lifeguards, bus drivers, health care professionals, emergency workers, building engineers, maintenance workers --- in fact, I don't want them I'm any position to affect the health or welfare of any other human being. If the state agrees and extends that protection to their children as well, I'm in 100% agreement.

      Take the kid to a doctor. Then pray all you want for your *god* to work through the doctor and other professionals. You are welcome to claim the blessing as a miracle healing. Just get all of the details straight so other believers will understand that 'god had a little help' from the doctor's education, training and experience, and without the doc's assistance, a patient has a much higher mortality rate of even common illnesses.

      Delete
    6. Anonymous9:31 AM

      Don Barker cites this case in his forward to the book "God and the Folly of Faith" by Victor J. Stenger. The founder of their ministry is one of those "heal by faith only" types. When the Newmanns saw their daughter become critical, instead of calling a doctor, they called this guy for a blessing. Kara's father has said that he believes that if he goes to a doctor, that it would be putting the doctor above God. They truly believe these things. From p.16 -

      "...the Bible is very emphatic that faith will heal the sick. Jesus said, "All things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive" (Matt. 21:22). Nothing could be more clear: he said all things. He didn't say "maybe," or "if I feel like it," or "if you are specially chosen." You will receive all things if you believe. coupled with James 5:15 (above), who could blame the Neumanns for thinking their prayers would be answered by the creator of the universe who loves them and promised to hear their prayers and who has the power to perform miracles and heal illness?"


      Delete
    7. Anonymous9:47 AM

      Anonymous @9:11 -

      Why would you make such a racists assumption?

      Delete
    8. Our Lad11:25 AM

      Fuck 'em, they killed her just as sure as if they threw her out of a window, the goddamn idiots.

      Delete
    9. Anonymous1:39 PM

      Anon @ 9:47 - they are white married christians, the sympathy that Anon @ 6:27 is breath-taking, because of what? A projection of sincerity, clean-cut healthy proper family?

      If it were a broken family, same-sex, mixed race, mixed faith, I doubt we'd see Anon @ 6:27 speaking so defensively on their behalf.

      Right?

      Delete
    10. Anita Winecooler6:51 PM

      The word murder is sensationalizing. The legal term is "Homicide" and sounds less salacious than "murder". The only consolation for the warped parents is she died on Easter Sunday.

      Delete
  7. Anonymous6:39 AM

    It is a crime (literally) that, in this era of technology and advanced medicine, any child should die of a treatable disease.

    If they believe so strongly in their God, why don't they also believe that the same God helped the scientists develop the medicines that can save their child's life? If their God is all-powerful and responsible for everything that happens in our world, is He not also responsible for advances in medicine?

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    Replies
    1. That reminds me of the joke about the man stranded by rising flood waters. He prayed for rescue. A rowboat came by and he waved them off; he said God would save him. A helicopter came by; he waved them off and said God would save him. A motorboat comes by and he waves them off; God would save him.

      He eventually drowns, gets to the pearly gates and asks God why he died. His faith was strong! God says "I sent you two boats and a helicopter. What more did you want?!

      Delete
    2. Anonymous2:09 PM

      Nefer -
      I've heard that joke before...it's a good one and frighteningly true!

      It also reminds me of the old saying "God helps those who help themselves".

      Delete
  8. Anonymous7:39 AM

    BTW the "pentecostal" excuse doesn't work if you look at hgow the murderous Mom is dressed.

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  9. Pastor Beldar J Conehead, Amateur Attorney At Law8:08 AM

    Even Jeebus agrees: It's not murder.

    But it is a crime.

    Based on my vast store of legal ignorance, I believe it's technically negligent homicide or manslaughter.

    Like it says in the bible:

    "Ye knoweth Faith and Stupidity together are more dangerous than Faith or Stupidity alone. Word!"
    First Collusions 857:5309

    "Better Call Beldar!"

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  10. Anonymous8:42 AM

    We have a case like this in Oregon. They let TWO kids die who could have been treated successfully.

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  11. Anonymous10:05 AM

    Those people are not "deeply religious;" they are deeply delusional...

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  12. Anita Winecooler6:33 PM

    So this negligent homicide went to a high court and they got a slap on the wrist?

    "But the Supreme Court disagreed in a 6-1 ruling, upholding the Neumanns' sentences, which call for each of them to serve a month in jail every year for six years and 10 years' probation."

    They have other kids and a coffee business to take care of. If another kid dies because they prayed and didn't seek medical attention in ten years, THEN they'll get the book thrown at them.

    I love laws like this! "neglect and kill your first kid, keep the rest until you prove you won't do it again. What's wrong with this picture?

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