You know one of the things that always bothers me about religious apologists is the notion that they support religious freedom. When in fact if it were possible in America they absolutely would not.
A person of faith believes that they have made the correct choice in who and how they worship.
In fact they believe that EVERYBODY else, who is not an adherent to their faith, is dead wrong. And what's more that their choice will result in the other person being denied the rewards offered to them and condemned to an eternal punishment which they believe they will be spared.
Now many of them will sugarcoat this, but that is only because it is considered socially unacceptable to challenge the faith of others in public. In private, among their own, they do not hold back when condemning and even ridiculing the religious beliefs of others.
This is often my thought when I hear religious people say that Atheists are "arrogant." As if there were ANYTHING more arrogant than a person who believes that THEY, with their seemingly massive intellect, have deduced, out of the thousands of possibilities, not only which god truly exists but also exactly by which methods one can garner his, or her, favor and thereby reap the rewards for their supplication.
This!
ReplyDeleteI refuse to worship a God who,supposedly, was aware of the consequences of "His"act of creation,and went ahead and did it anyway........
ReplyDeleteThank you. And, not only did "He" go ahead and do it anyway. . .
DeleteHe was outwitted by Satan, who through the serpent, laid the groundwork for man to be sinful.
He used killing as a solution to the sinful nature of man. Saving Noah & his kin, He killed by means of the flood. I've always found this "killing" as a way to solve the problem as troublesome. Through Jesus, man has the avenue to be saved; but otherwise, He's putting you in hell.
Whoa, I’m in good company; Richard Dawkins!
ReplyDeleteWhen I was about twelve, I confronted my mother who was squawking about a nephew going to hell because he was converting to Catholicism as per the wishes of his fiancée. I noted that if my mother had been born Catholic, she’d be saying Evangelical Lutherans were going to hell. I finished with a comparison to a horse wearing blinders, only seeing where someone else turned his head. Mom was hopping mad already, but if I’d have known about the great JuJu, I’d have certainly thrown him in. I was such a nice child. I did wonders for her blood pressure.
Faith is more about faith in a book than about faith in a particular God. Depending on the book you believe in determines which version of God you may believe in.
ReplyDeleteGiven all the contradictions in these books, along with mistranslations, misinterpretations, and millennia of human editing along with selective additions and omissions to these texts, I doubt that any two people have exactly the same beliefs.
While proving a negative is virtually impossible (i.e. the non-existence of some form of God), it is possible to prove positives. Science concentrates on a quest to prove the knowns, rather than the unknowns, and even when scientists "prove" their knowns, they test, and retest ad infinitum to make sure they have it right. If something happens to disprove what they believed were knowns, they are willing to admit their mistakes and get ever closer to the "truth".
Given this, it is easier to prove the existence of UFO's and aliens than it is to prove the existence of God. There are thousands of living witnesses to such phenomena, many of whom corroborate each other, and hopefully at least a few of these witnesses are sane and rational people.
If such things really do exist, we must accept that there are beings who are, at least in some respects, more intelligent and advanced than ourselves. Would Christians and other religious groups believe that if such beings exist, that we humans are not at the top tier of "God's plan" and that perhaps they have it wrong? After all, if we are supposed to be created in God's image, and these beings are more highly developed than we are, would it not stand to reason that they would be more likely created "in God's image" than we are?
I personally have never seen a UFO or alien being, and am very skeptical of their existence. However I find it harder to discard completely the possibility of their existence than it is to discard the stories and myths about any religious version of "God" which have not been witnessed and corroborated by any human beings alive today.
Another good answer to a christian asking this is: What if YOU are wrong? It amazes me that they never consider this possibility. I think you have to be really arrogant to devote your time to getting other people to changing their mind about religion and admitting they are wrong, but at the same time to never consider the possibility that you could change your own mind.
ReplyDeleteGreat comments, especially yours, Anon 5:37...well, all of them really. What always struck me as creepy is how Christians can look with suspicion at other Christians in slightly different churches as if their version isn't quite right. Before I gave up on all of that, I think I got talked into being baptized by about five different types of Christian churches because they weren't too sure if the others' baptisms would get the job done. I figure I'm covered...also born again, speaking in tongues, etc. Frankly, I got sick of the whole hypocritical mess many years ago. I never fit in anywhere anyway, and I don't miss it in the least.
ReplyDeletei figure one dunking a lifetime is plenty. still not sure what i think about needing to be dunked to get to heaven.....sounds like a place full of ridiculous rules.
DeleteI wonder, if someone did a survey of a good cross-section of North American non-believers, if they would in fact discover that the vast majority were originally "believers" as taught by their parents.......something for the "believers" to ponder......
ReplyDeleteAs I think back to my childhood, I have to wonder if I ever *was* a true believer. I was a Christian, not because I believed so much in Christianity, but because everyone surrounding me claimed to be Christian and, when asking my parents what I was, they replied "we are Christian". I was told that in as a matter of fact way in much the same way as if I had asked what nationality I was.
DeleteI did attend church and Sunday School quite often, but was bored to death of it, and always wondered if the others around me were as bored as I was. I don't recall ever really buying into the stories of Adam and Eve (created from the rib of Adam? you're kidding, right?), the talking snake who must have had legs before God condemned him to crawl on his belly, the flood, and the gathering into the ark of all creatures two by two.
Judging by the yawning and snoring I witnessed, and the relief everyone seemed to experience when the "Sunday go to meeting" ordeal was over, I felt I was not the only one. Many of the kids I knew would talk afterwards about the hypocrisy they saw because they felt that they and the people they knew went to church to be seen going to church, rather than going because they really wanted to be there.
After I left home, I have only been to church for weddings and funerals, and have pondered the existence of God on my own rather than in a group of people who seemed to not be what they claimed to be.
In the beginning was the word - and the word was POWER.
ReplyDeleteAnd most did not know how to use words, but those few who did used them to create God in their own image.
Then those who understood words said "boy the stupid people are really going to eat this shit up" and it was true.
'twas ever thus.
Amen, brother!
Delete"In fact they believe that EVERYBODY else, who is not an adherent to their faith, is dead wrong"
ReplyDeleteYou are actually wrong about that, Gryphen. Many people believe that the Supreme Being, whoever he/she is, may have spoken to different people in different ways and that Hindus, Muslims, Christians, etc. are ALL children of the Supreme Being.
No they don't. At least not really.
DeleteThe only people who believe that are those who are not actually faithful to any one religious belief. And that is not actually who I was addressing.
The idea that there is a supreme being, and that he might be worshiped in a number of different manners, is the kind of rationalization which ardent church goers are instructed NOT to engage in.
The only way that a faith survives is through the passage of it from one generation to the next. And that is done by those who are convinced that they are right and everybody else is wrong.
What you describe is the beginning of the end of religious faith, and eventually the end of that faith altogether.
I fit into your "not actually faithful to any one religious belief". I consider myself to be a better "Christian" -though I'm not one -than most of the church goers I run into daily. I was raised a Lutheran by a lapsed Jewish mother who took the time to give her children a very eclectic and thorough religious instruction. We were encouraged to read the bible(s) and other religious texts, to discuss and challenge the theology. Compare and contrast different spiritual beliefs.
DeleteMost religious people I meet are completely wrong about what they think the Christian bible scriptures mean. This is what happens when you make people stop thinking and just accept blindly what the priest tells you to think.
My God(dess) WANTS me to think! And that's why I'm not a part of any kind of structured religious institution now or ever again.
Yes, faith survives through the passage from one generation to the next. I like to think I've given my son the same kind of basis to grow on that I had, but I don't "convince" anyone "that they are right and everyone else is wrong". My son is free to believe what he wants, but he better be up for the challenge to defend that belief, and it better not be at the expense of someone's health and happiness.
Now, pushing 50, I feel that I am a very religious person. I believe that "God" however you perceive It, will make itself known, in whatever way that your spirit will be able to receive it and grow.
And at the same time I have no problem reconciling my scientific training and knowledge with my spiritual beliefs. And the more I learn about things like quantum physics the more I tend to believe in something more and other than our existence here on Earth in this moment in time.
I respect those who disbelieve. I have no interest in trying to convince anyone otherwise. We each have our own path to walk. I won't block your path, or tell you you are on the wrong one, or walking it the wrong way, as long as you are harming none, and please treat me the same.
I have always felt that anyone has the right to believe in whatever they like. My church is pacifist, and while I do think that THAT is correct, that Jesus would not condone the killing of any human being, I do know that many churches disagree. To me, the sanctity of life is the basis for my beliefs. No war, no death penalty, and abortion to save a life, or to end a pregnancy that was going to end anyway. I have no problems with contraception of any type. I do not think the words, "Be frutiful and multiply" mean to put so many people on this planet that no one can survive. I think we are charged with protecting this planet, not trashing it while awaiting some "return" or whatever. What the Kochs have done to Detroit makes me ill. What the GOP has done to civility and compassion is criminal. And for all of them to claim the Bible as a source of their beliefs...right. I think the religion is there to grab votes from ignorant people who think they have to vote for the guy who says "God" the most..and then it absolves them from actually seeing how he acts.
ReplyDeleteGryphen, in response to what you said "The idea that there is a supreme being, and that he might be worshiped in a number of different manners, is the kind of rationalization which ardent church goers are instructed NOT to engage in. " -- the current Pope, for all the failings and power-hunger of the Catholic institution, recently came out and said (I think when he was in Brazil) that being Catholic is NOT the only way to God. Of course, he's a Jesuit, so he's probably a secret atheist who just likes to wear dresses, lol.
ReplyDeleteI am a Catholic, and although I grew up hearing that all other religions were wrong, as well as a lot of other bullshit, I was also taught to always be examining both my life and my conscience. That teaching has backfired on the Church -- you can't raise a child to value the judgements of her own mind and then expect her to blindly swear to all the authoritarian crap.
Today, I have a firm belief in something I call God (though it's not even close to what the Church teaches as God). I have many friends of other beliefs and have learned from them, taken things and added them to my life. I also have many friends who are atheist, and I've learned as much from them as well.
It all comes down to the individual, not the religion or non-religion. If you decide to blindly surrender your mind to any other belief system, you are fucked. It is all an individual decision, and unfortunately there are all too many who are terrified of making their own decisions.
I dunno -- I just like the company of as wide a series of beliefs as I can find. Blame the Jesuits, because they're the ones who taught me to do that.
Brills!!!!
ReplyDelete