Tuesday, April 05, 2016

Christian homeschoolers angry that the crap they teach their children is not considered an education by trade and vocational schools.

Courtesy of Raw Story: 

Homeschoolers says it’s unfair that they must prove they’ve obtained high school-level academic skills to become a police officer or enter trade school. 

The Home School Legal Defense Association (HSLDA) is challenging requirements by cosmetology and vocational schools that incoming students show a high school diploma or pass a GED exam to gain admittance. 

“A homeschool graduate is accepted into a cosmetology or vocational school — but then, like a bolt from above, the admissions office reverses course,” said William Estrada, HSLDA director of federal relations. “Officials tell the applicant that the school cannot accept homeschoolers.” 

The Christian legal advocacy group has handled numerous calls from homeschooled young adults who say they were turned away from trade schools or police departments because they had not passed a General Educational Development exam — which they say graduates of traditional high schools are not required to do. 

“Vocational schools are more likely to be audited for compliance with federal higher education laws,” Estrada said. “They’re worried that if they accept a homeschooler who doesn’t have the documentation of a public school graduate, it could cost the vocational school its accreditation.”

So I guess that teaching little Johnny that the earth is only six thousand years old and is older than the sun does not fly in a school where the little snowflakes are expected to know actual facts.


58 comments:

  1. Good gods. Their ignorance is astounding. High school grads don't need to pass the GED? What do they expect? The GED was created to give people who do not complete high school a standing for future education. If they'd graduated from public high schools, they wouldn't have to take the GED. THEY'RE the ones that insist that testing their kids is unnecessary and the state doesn't have the right to check regularly to make sure they're getting some basic education standards. Damn. The dumbing of America.

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    1. Anonymous5:13 AM

      My sentiments exactly, ivy, I read that sentence three times thinking I misinterpreted what they were saying. Unbelievable, but what can we expect from this "participation award" society. Dumbing down indeed!

      Delete
    2. Boscoe3:25 PM

      It's amazing the way *some* people (christian conservatives) whine and moan when they're forced to follow the same rules as everyone else.

      They may have the "right" to fill their kids' heads with useless garbage that renders them unable to get a decent job, but it is not their right to force employers and higher education to lower their standards so that their little snowflakes can get a free pass.

      Talk about an "entitlement class".

      Delete
  2. Anonymous4:05 AM

    About f**king time. Poor tikes; arrogant parents.

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  3. TwoBlueJays4:13 AM

    Good grief, they also seemed to have skipped Logic 101. 'which they say graduates of traditional high schools are not required to do.' - because of course those students graduated, with an actual diploma. SMH.

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    1. Boscoe3:33 PM

      To be fair (not that they deserve it) I think what they're saying is they believe whatever little "certificate of completion" they print out and sign in crayon to stick on the fridge with a magnet is equal to a real diploma. SO to them it's not fair that their kids need to get a GED to prove basic human competence when kids who graduated actual highschool do not.

      I wish I could interview some of those parents though. Because I'd LOVE to find out what OTHER scenarios they believe just taking an applicants' word for their educational status would be totally appropriate.

      Delete
  4. Anonymous4:27 AM

    Can you imagine little Johnny Homeschooler going into an electricians apprenticeship proclaiming electricity came from God because his mom said so.

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    1. Boscoe3:35 PM

      It would certainly be the shortest apprenticeship EVAR when little Johnny invokes the power of Jesus to protect him from the live voltage...

      Delete
  5. Leland4:33 AM

    My comment is aimed strictly at those who are the religious type homeschoolers. The ones who teach only the religious things the parents feel they need to know. Like those above.

    I can't help but feel the shock these people are experiencing shouldn't really BE a surprise. They must have known - or at least have had SOME clue! - that knowing only the bible and what was called how to live a "good life" couldn't possibly have prepared the kids for life in the real world.

    I'm glad at least SOME of them are having this problem because it means fewer leeches on the system later on for US to carry.

    And as fort those who complain the high school graduates don't have to take a GED? How stupid can they be? I mean, they DO know that those who went through public school already demonstrated their skills, right? Or at least, SHOULD have.

    Sorry, but people THAT stupid shouldn't be parents!

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    1. Anonymous4:46 AM

      Leland, at the very least, public-schooled children have a record of someone *other than their parents* evaluating their work, in the form of papers, exams, report card grades, and national standardized tests. If a teacher gives Little Johnny an A in Calculus, the AP grader board gives Little Johnny a 4 on the yearly national test, and the SAT grader board give Little Johnny a 750 in the Math section, you know that Little Johnny likely knows math.

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  6. Anonymous4:36 AM

    Nobody uses the cubit as a measurement of length any more.

    Teaching Iron Age morality and 'science' just won't cut it here in the 21st century.

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  7. Anonymous5:19 AM

    AS someone who home-schooled their kids for academic reasons - inadequate GT programs at the public school, this has nothing to do with religion. It has to do with independently verifying that the kids have the basic skills to succeed at vocational or trade schools. And since more than likely federal loan monies are involved, schools can have their accreditation yanked or be sued (Corinthian Colleges?) Many homeschoolers, religious and non, do a great job of teaching math and chem and bio. ANd some, religious and non, practice malign neglect for 12 years. Accepting the latter into any school is just a waste of time and money which federal and state governments now frown on. It's just like a four year requiring an ACT/SAT score to make sure a high school diploma wasn't a kept the seat warm for four years degree. Suck it up buttercups and take the test.

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    1. Anonymous5:39 AM

      5:19; are you me?!? I homeschooled my oldest for the same reason. We used community college and an accredited online high school (the high school accepted accredited college credits toward high school requirements) and my oldest earned a diploma from an accredited high school. In addition, same child took the ACT and SAT to leave his options open when applying to college. Our family was the rarity among homeschoolers in our area, many of whom were sheltered so they didn't ever get exposed to the fact that the earth is more than 6,000 years old--or if they're girls, that they're exposed to any education whatsoever beyond the 6th grade.

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    2. Anonymous6:03 AM

      Had plenty of run-ins with the HSLDA types - talk about an entitlement attitude - yeesh, but almost as bad were the secular "unschoolers." I would have gladly had my kids tested on a yearly basis. But because of HSLDA, you can't participate in school tests.

      All schools have to go through accreditation if you want official recognition, these days, even higher ed. NO longer is "the kid did fine because I, the teacher said so" acceptable. There are all sorts of assessments and benchmarks that have to be hit. But homeschoolers of this type want it to be "I'm the parent/teacher and I said the kid is doing fine so my Johnny gets his trophy. " Does not work that way.

      Delete
    3. Anonymous6:11 AM

      Same here. We homeschooled for academic reasons, too, and when our daughter felt ready for college at the ripe old age of 14 1/2, she spent her first and only morning at our local high school principal's office who had the final say on wether or not she might be ready/mature enough to go to college. She passed with flying colors and high recommendations, but still had to take an entrance exam to check at what level of math and science she would be. (Didn't have to take the GED somehow).

      We have some religious freak relatives, who are homeschooling their child. It has been several years since we met them last, but they are of the 'the earth is 6000 years old' mindset. Their daughter was completely cloistered - no oitside comtact except with other like-minded religious freak children allowed. Will be interesting to see what their daughter will be doing once she hits high school or college age.

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    4. Anonymous6:49 AM

      Oh, the unschoolers! The few I met through various homeschooling umbrella functions all had parents who said things like, "it's not fair to make kids wake up in the morning"--how are these kids supposed to function in the real world if even the most trivial thing as getting up and getting ready is completely unstructured? How will these special, special snowflakes handle showing up at a job everyday?

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    5. Anonymous6:53 AM

      Little-advertised fact; community colleges take any student who can pass their reading/math entrance exams regardless of whether they have a high school diploma or GED, and most 4-year schools will waive the SAT/ACT if a student transfers in with 30 credits. A lot of academic homeschoolers start at community college early, get their 30 credits, and then transfer to 4-year schools to finish. With a bit of forethought, a student can knock out their gen ed classes through community college, which generally offer smaller classes than 4-year schools. Rather than being 1 of 100 students in Art Appreciation or Calc 1, they're 1 of 20 students.

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    6. Anonymous8:11 AM

      Heaven forbid a young adult be 'one of 100' students. Send them to Christian college then. And heaven forbid they have to compete with more than themselves when they try to get a job. Competition is part of life.
      My nephews went to church schools for 13 years. Then they were forced to attend a Christian college for four more. One of them actually went to a real law
      school, not Liberty.
      But only tow of them are married now that they are all in their 30's. Two have major alcohol issues, denied by their parents, and although all work, only two are in career jobs. It's pretty sad.

      Delete
    7. Anonymous8:35 AM

      8:11; you've entirely missed the point, which was starting a post-high-school education with community college and then moving up once the minimum credits have been earned. Please do try to keep up.

      Delete
    8. Anonymous12:48 PM

      Also, even many four years will accept an off the charts ACT/SAT score. As a high school drop out who dropped out IN ORDER to go to college, I can attest to it. There are even a few schools that cater to the precocious, academically gifted high school student (Bard, at Simon's Rock for example.) https://simons-rock.edu/?utm_expid=66869115-11.gKiC4QNjRpeqypaAWP3bpg.0&utm_referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2F

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    9. Anonymous2:19 PM

      I taught for 35 years at a community college, in a technical program. My grads (those who worked at succeeding) had no problem getting technician jobs starting at $45K or more after a 2-year degree.

      I had a handful of homeschooled kids, all for religious reasons. They were pretty good at facts (usually) but unable to think on their feet and solve complicated open ended problems. They needed to be told what to do. This was a real problem - consider that one employer's "interview" was a box of parts, some tools, incomplete instructions and an hour to build something (no clock in the room).

      Every kid should be taught critical thinking and problem solving- but then that Noah story gets hard to explain.

      Delete
  8. LisaB25955:20 AM

    I don't think it's because these students don't "know anything." Vocational schools are mostly proprietary institutions, i.e., for profit. They get the bulk of their revenues from federal financial aid programs. There are limits to the number of students you can admit without a HS diploma or GED to remain eligible to participate in aid programs.

    Proprietary institutions are usually more than happy to admit anyone because that's how they make money. There's a reason the feds put the 50% rule in place. ;) Some of these schools were quite literally admitting homeless people.

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    1. Anonymous6:51 AM

      LisaB2595 5:20AM
      "Some of thrse schools were quite literally admitting homeless people".

      What difference did it make that some were homeless? Do you mean that homeless children didn't deserve admittance? There was a few years in FL when public schools reported "25% of their students were homeless" in a certain area. Whether or not a child is homeless should have nothing to do with their qualification to being admitted or not.

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    2. Anonymous7:58 AM

      You do realize that homeless people are entitled to an education also don't you? What a stupid ass remark.

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    3. Anonymous10:26 AM

      WTF? Just what does homelessnes have to do with education??? Do you want to say that if a child is homeless, it does not have a right to an education???

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    4. Anonymous10:39 AM

      LisaB isn't talking about homeless kids getting a public education. She's talking about admitting homeless people to trade schools and for-profit colleges because those schools get federal money, either through loans or grants. So many students are set up to fail because they weren't ready for college, because the colleges suck, and/or because they are encouraged to take out federal loans they won't be able to pay back, especially when they drop out.

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    5. Anonymous11:20 AM

      Ohhh I get it! If anyone gets to rip off the government it better not be homeless people or any of those other "others". Think about this: a lot of homeless are veterans...young veterans.

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    6. LisaB259511:27 AM

      Exactly, Anon 10:39.

      Many proprietary schools would prey on these students, promising stuff, but rarely delivering because they're are for profit. They would enroll students--any students--just to get their financial aid. The students get no education and eventually default on their loans.

      I have 15 years experience administering federal and state student aid, five of them as a director at a mid-sized Texas university. The rules to participate in federal aid programs often drive what a school can and can't do. Because of such shady practices, proprietary schools have had to change the way they operate.

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    7. Anonymous12:56 PM

      I think the OP's point was that these colleges were just getting anyone, even those clearly not in a position to do any of the work such as a homeless person, to sign the papers for enrollment which likely included a loan document. There are horror stories from the Corinthian scandal.
      https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2016/03/21/how-corinthian-recruited-homeless-students

      http://time.com/money/4264670/corinthian-colleges-recruitment-strategy-emails/

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    8. Anonymous1:04 PM

      I think the OP's point was that these colleges were just getting anyone, even those clearly not in a position to do any of the work such as a homeless person, to sign the papers for enrollment which likely included a loan document. There are horror stories from the Corinthian scandal.
      https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2016/03/21/how-corinthian-recruited-homeless-students

      http://time.com/money/4264670/corinthian-colleges-recruitment-strategy-emails/

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    9. Anonymous4:08 PM

      This isn't about students ripping off the government, it's about trade schools and for-profit colleges ripping off the government AND (worse) students. Those horror stories from Corinthian are just the tip of the iceberg.

      These places actually target poor people, single parents, and veterans. They give them the hard sell, preying on their hope for a better future.

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    10. Anonymous4:49 PM

      Realize that student loans Are non-dischargeable, even in bankruptcy court.
      A homeless person or other low-income person can succeed, with a lot of help and wrap around services. But all that costs money. Corinthian and other for profits have none of those necessary services. They did have predatory enrollment officers. Read the posted articles, then those early posters can come back and apologize.

      Delete
  9. Anonymous5:38 AM

    The obvious and simple answer is to have faith based, homeshool trade programs for the parents to conduct for their kids. Lots of prayer and bible study followed by some study guides showing a plumber riding his dinosaur to a house call and they ought to be all set to start their new careers in whichever trade gawd has called them pursue.

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  10. Anonymous5:41 AM

    “A homeschool graduate is accepted into a cosmetology or vocational school — but then, like a bolt from above, the admissions office reverses course, "
    --------

    A bolt from above? God must telling you something, Mr. Estrada. Listen.

    Mildred

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  11. Randall5:43 AM

    The problem with teaching your children nonsense is that everyone else will (rightly) consider your children stupid.

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  12. Anonymous6:17 AM

    How intimidating can a GED be to someone who's received a decent home-schooled education?

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    1. Anonymous6:55 AM

      The HSLDA lies about all homeschoolers learning more and scoring higher than public-schooled kids on standardized tests. Only a small subset of homeschoolers ever take subsized tests--and those are the ones who were always college-bound anyway. In the meantime, the average 10th grade public school student can pass the GED test.

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    2. Anonymous7:59 AM

      Every time I read an article such as this I'm reminded of this "Youtube" of some homeschoolers. Scary: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QyNzSW7I4qw

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  13. How does it work for colleges. I can't believe they accept homeschoolers as if they were qualified with the proper accreditation.

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    1. Anonymous7:15 AM

      My oldest is in grad school now, so my information is a few years old. A lot of academic-minded homeschoolers take part in an online accredited school, which issues them an actual, verifiable diploma. Without that, some schools will also admit a student with SAT/ACT scores alone. Some homeschooled students take the community college route for the 30 credits needed to transfer; many colleges will accept 30 college credits in lieu of an SAT/ACT score.

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    2. Anonymous8:04 AM

      Pretty telling that they refuse to take an SAT/ACT. We have a number of home schoolers in my area. They get upset when the community music groups refuse to accept their scholarship applications when the kids have their 'home school band' but do not take lessons, participate in solo and ensemble, and their bands are awful. Meanwhile, they apply to a local foundation for scholarship funds, and amazingly enough, every transcript I've seen shows all A's! Imagine that. Mommy gave Freddie an A in every subject! Then they use the parents for their references, as none of them has ever held a job with another person, and the foundation I scan for does not accept parental references, for good reason. So then they get their 'pastor' to write something up.
      Interesting how they finally admit they need 'public education' to get anywhere in life.

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    3. Anonymous8:41 AM

      8:04: it's also disgusting when they demand to play football on the public school team because "they pay taxes". Well, I pay taxes, too, but that doesn't mean I get to star in the Whackadoo Church's Easter play! My tax dollars are providing them water, fire protection, electrical service, etc. etc. Many homeschool families will go on and on and on about how horrible the public school system supposedly is, but better let their special snowflake onto the football team so he can be seen by scouts!

      Delete
    4. These are all reasons that the United States, (unlike the majority, if not all of the Industrialized West), have Federal Government mandates as to what is required subject matter for all levels of schooling. Homeschooling is just another effort by the melding of Rethuglikan/Evangelical thinking* (*If you can call it that), toward dumbing down the electorate, thereby assuring them of legislative Supremacy.
      If that idea doesn't give you the fuckin' chills, you'd have to be dead from the neck up.

      Delete
    5. Anonymous1:06 PM

      It's 8:41 who is disgusting. Academics and athletics are separate. Schools shouldn't have ANY athletic teams. Towns should. Guess 8:41 is just afraid their little melting snowflake can't compete against a larger pool of talent. Let me guess, football? Which will be phased out in a decade with CTE now and almost inevitable consequence.

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    6. Anonymous4:51 PM

      Online accredited schools aren't really hoemschooling. They're just online schools, public charters or private. Problem is that testing is completely unverified. Some do make students take an in person test once per year.

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    7. Anonymous4:51 AM

      1:06, the point just went whoosh! over your head. Try reading 8:41's point for comprehension; you just repeated what they said.

      Delete
  14. crimprof6:33 AM

    I teach criminology and criminal justice at the college level. I have a PhD and I teach at a "brick and mortar" school.

    I find it disgusting that these parents think police officers shouldn't have a high school diploma or shouldn't have to pass a test on basic literacy and math skills that every 18 year-old should have.

    In my classes, I teach theory, history, ethics and constitutional law. Our students are expected to know about criminal procedure as well as the psychology and sociology of law enforcement, how and why people become criminals, minority and gender differences, intervention and prevention, treatment, and theories of corrections. I also teach them how to express themselves verbally and in writing. And they also take literature, history, humanities, science, and math as part of their general education requirements.

    Just try and join a police force these days without an associate degree (even in the rural south where many of my students end up working). Many, many police officers are coming back to school for four year degrees in order to compete with younger potential recruits who have them.

    Do we really want police officers who are so sheltered and who can't prove they can read and write at a high school graduate level?

    If it were up to me, the basic requirement to be in law enforcement would be an associates degree from a traditional two-year school (not a tech or vocational school). But, as I said, we are seeing more and more police officers sticking it out for the Bachelor's degree.

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  15. Anonymous7:22 AM

    There is a book called "What Really Happened To The Dinosaurs" by John Morris and Ken Ham used by home schools that purports dinosaurs were among the animals that boarded Noah's ark. The book's illustrations actually shows Noah guiding the dinosaurs up the gang plank. In that book the "original sin" is also discussed as a lead up to the dinosaurs in the ark chapter..... And they wonder why their curriculum is not accepted anywhere in the outside world of their home schools? The parent who brought this book to my attention IMMEDIATELY changed course and nixed the home school idea after she saw the books that were to be used by her children.

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  16. Anonymous7:45 AM

    THIS!
    http://www.rawstory.com/2016/04/north-carolina-church-harasses-former-member-over-her-marriage-to-another-woman/

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  17. Anonymous7:50 AM

    I'm sure some Bibull college will accept their bibull homeskooling, they should send their illiterate kids there.

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  18. Anonymous7:51 AM

    Why are their kids so het up on attending public schools if they were homeskooled?

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    1. Anonymous4:53 PM

      vocational and trade schools are generally private, not public.

      And about that education you obviously didn't have.....

      Delete
  19. Anonymous7:59 AM

    Feebleminded PIGS wanting to be PIGS with GUNS!.....?

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  20. Anonymous8:00 AM

    I graduated early, I had to take the my SAT and pass college entry exams to get into the Univ. that gave me a full ride scholarship.
    ucl the homeskoolers that don't think the rules are for them.

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  21. Anonymous11:05 AM

    Read this about JOB$!>
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/scott-santens/humanity-needs-universal-_b_9599198.html

    ReplyDelete
  22. Anita Winecooler4:22 PM

    Do they teach "Home School Defense" classes in home schools? Seriously, some piece of paper awarded by mom or dad isn't equal to a high school diploma or GED. And the way things are headed, even a ged or diploma won't get you much but a reason to party.

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  23. Anonymous10:39 AM

    One cotton pickin' minute here! They don't send their kids to school, but they expect to be able to get on the football team? I'm a taxpayer, and why should I help foot the bill for Mommy's special little snowflake? If they don't want to send their kids to public schools fir an education, then as far as I'm concerned, they shouldn't be allowed to get on the school's team.

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    1. Anonymous4:53 AM

      Yes, they want their kid on the football team so a scout can discover them. It's absolute foolishness. Some states actually allow this, and what it means is that some kid who actually goes to that school can't make the team because all the hoom-skooled kids are on it.

      Delete

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