Morality is not determined by the church you attend nor the faith you embrace. It is determined by the quality of your character and the positive impact you have on those you meet along your journey
Tuesday, March 16, 2010
Just a little something to think about today. Richard Dawkins compares Creationists to Holocaust deniers.
Very provocative, but the comparison is clearly valid.
Love the christian wingnut bashing Gryphen but I don't think your American audience is going to be with us. Love Dawkins too but he's getting entangled in something that he's not going to benefit from. Intelligent people don't want the holocaust denied, most just want some semblance of reality in the numbers and the stories being repeated. And after all, after over 65 years isn't it time to let it go a bit and stop the Jewish apartheid regime's benefitting from the stories? I mean really, they have their own mini holocaust going on against the Palestinian people as we speak!
That's my opinion Gryphen and I'm wondering if you and your audience can relate to that in an intelligent way without resorting to more silly accusations.
Can you be more specific about "some semblance of reality in the numbers and the stories being repeated." One thing I know is that the Germans are known for their attention to detail. Everything they did was well-documented in writing and photographs. So, I'm wondering exactly what you are inferring.
I think the parallels were valid. Most people don't really understand how science works, but most realize the idiocy in denying the holocaust. Scientific inquiry is not democratic. It relies on systematic study, always open to new evidence, but the evidence must be evaluated for validity.
I understand the need for a homeland after WWII, but it is very hard for me to support the way they treat the Palestinians. And YES, I know about the terror, but Israel is the Adult here and they need to act like it.
But the hard line Zionists do not want a two-state peace, just to be clear. They are doing fine by kicking them out through land grabs and attrition.
There are people out here with Jewish heritage whose feelings about Israel range from ambivalent to critical to downright disgusted. Yet, we all understand the importance of remembering every morbid detail of the Holocaust.
Israel doesn't own the Holocaust and I think questioning the numbers and stories of survivors in the name of questioning the legitimacy of Israel only serves to soften and perhaps even deny the horror of the event.
I'll haul out that old saying: those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it. That includes Israelis and others who forget their own history.
I fear we are entering a new Dark Age. How do you reason with people whose ideology specifically elevates unreason (and calls it 'faith') over reason? Faith does not give you license to ignore--to be ignor-ant--of facts. At least faith USED to encourage adherents to be better people, but even that has changed. Now many religious people measure their faith by their level of intolerance, their accumulation of worldly goods and their disdain for the weak--all traits that were once associated with the wicked. I'm hoping this is some ugly, crazy phase, but the more selfish we become as a society, the more religious we seem to be becoming, as well. There must be some sort of perverse correlation there.
MickeyMusing: I fear we are entering a new Dark Age. How do you reason with people whose ideology specifically elevates unreason (and calls it 'faith') over reason?
That's not a sign of a new Dark Age. It's what's still left over from the old Dark Age. Unreasoning faith has always been around. The process of weakening it and ultimately eradicating it has taken 400 years so far and is still slow. We just need to keep up the fight -- as Dawkins is doing.
Lilybart: Two-state solution? There's already a Palestinian state which includes 3/4 of the land of the original Palestine mandate. It's called Jordan.
"Faith" doesn't have to mean "stupid," "ignorant," or "educationally retarded." Science and religion are not mutually exclusive. Maybe it's just that some "religious" people are too insecure in their place in the universe, so they need rigid rules and a like-minded cult to survive. By the same token, I don't think it is right for us to indoctrinate our children. Each person should have the freedom to find their own path, whatever that may be. There is a huge difference between truly educating (presenting a wide range of possiblities) a child and indoctrinating (one and ONLY one belief). Not all people of faith fit into the second group.
Love the christian wingnut bashing Gryphen but I don't think your American audience is going to be with us. Love Dawkins too but he's getting entangled in something that he's not going to benefit from. Intelligent people don't want the holocaust denied, most just want some semblance of reality in the numbers and the stories being repeated. And after all, after over 65 years isn't it time to let it go a bit and stop the Jewish apartheid regime's benefitting from the stories? I mean really, they have their own mini holocaust going on against the Palestinian people as we speak!
ReplyDeleteThat's my opinion Gryphen and I'm wondering if you and your audience can relate to that in an intelligent way without resorting to more silly accusations.
Can you be more specific about "some semblance of reality in the numbers and the stories being repeated." One thing I know is that the Germans are known for their attention to detail. Everything they did was well-documented in writing and photographs. So, I'm wondering exactly what you are inferring.
DeleteI think the parallels were valid. Most people don't really understand how science works, but most realize the idiocy in denying the holocaust. Scientific inquiry is not democratic. It relies on systematic study, always open to new evidence, but the evidence must be evaluated for validity.
ReplyDeleteI understand the need for a homeland after WWII, but it is very hard for me to support the way they treat the Palestinians. And YES, I know about the terror, but Israel is the Adult here and they need to act like it.
ReplyDeleteBut the hard line Zionists do not want a two-state peace, just to be clear. They are doing fine by kicking them out through land grabs and attrition.
Anon 9:31:
ReplyDeleteThere are people out here with Jewish heritage whose feelings about Israel range from ambivalent to critical to downright disgusted. Yet, we all understand the importance of remembering every morbid detail of the Holocaust.
Israel doesn't own the Holocaust and I think questioning the numbers and stories of survivors in the name of questioning the legitimacy of Israel only serves to soften and perhaps even deny the horror of the event.
I'll haul out that old saying: those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it. That includes Israelis and others who forget their own history.
I'll go with Dawkins point of view any day of the week...
ReplyDeleteI fear we are entering a new Dark Age. How do you reason with people whose ideology specifically elevates unreason (and calls it 'faith') over reason? Faith does not give you license to ignore--to be ignor-ant--of facts. At least faith USED to encourage adherents to be better people, but even that has changed. Now many religious people measure their faith by their level of intolerance, their accumulation of worldly goods and their disdain for the weak--all traits that were once associated with the wicked. I'm hoping this is some ugly, crazy phase, but the more selfish we become as a society, the more religious we seem to be becoming, as well. There must be some sort of perverse correlation there.
ReplyDeletethis is straight out of his latest book "The Greatest Show on Earth" which i highly recommend.
ReplyDeleteLove Dawkins, he was great on 'Family Feud.'
ReplyDeletelol @ 2:25! good one.
ReplyDeletethe comparison is definitely valid. the whole concept of giving equal time to myths and science within the same context is infuriating.
good clip, I think I'll have to click the 'watch full program' button.
MickeyMusing: I fear we are entering a new Dark Age. How do you reason with people whose ideology specifically elevates unreason (and calls it 'faith') over reason?
ReplyDeleteThat's not a sign of a new Dark Age. It's what's still left over from the old Dark Age. Unreasoning faith has always been around. The process of weakening it and ultimately eradicating it has taken 400 years so far and is still slow. We just need to keep up the fight -- as Dawkins is doing.
Lilybart: Two-state solution? There's already a Palestinian state which includes 3/4 of the land of the original Palestine mandate. It's called Jordan.
"Faith" doesn't have to mean "stupid," "ignorant," or "educationally retarded." Science and religion are not mutually exclusive. Maybe it's just that some "religious" people are too insecure in their place in the universe, so they need rigid rules and a like-minded cult to survive. By the same token, I don't think it is right for us to indoctrinate our children. Each person should have the freedom to find their own path, whatever that may be. There is a huge difference between truly educating (presenting a wide range of possiblities) a child and indoctrinating (one and ONLY one belief). Not all people of faith fit into the second group.
ReplyDelete