According to MSNBC:
Israeli commandos on Monday stormed six ships carrying hundreds of pro-Palestinian activists on an aid mission to the blockaded Gaza Strip, killing at least 10 people and wounding dozens.
White House spokesman Bill Burton, speaking a day before President Barack Obama had been scheduled to host Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu for talks at the White House, said the United States "deeply regrets the loss of life and injuries sustained" in the incident.
Netanyahu's office in Jersusalem said later that the prime minister had canceled the White House meeting to attend to the crisis at home.
Here is video of the boarding as recorded by Al Jazeera.
The Israelis are really working the PR to make it appear that they were firing in self defense, but I really think the video speaks for itself.
Gryphen, apparently there are 19 dead, and 80 injured.
ReplyDeleteAny comment yet from $P defending Israel's attack?
ReplyDeleteI sincerely hope that's not the only statement coming from the whitehouse.
ReplyDeleteThere have been several recent articles about how young American non-Orthodox Jews are distancing themselves from Israel. I think this sort of behavior goes a long way to explain it. You don't have to be a Palestinian supporter to know the difference between right and wrong--just in terms of humanist principles. Netanyahu has a lot to answer for. He is systematically isolating Israel from the international community by his loathsome policies. As the aggressor, bully state, Israel simply can no longer justify their claims of anti-semitic victimization. It's not anti-semitism if you are acting like an asshole and others point out that you are acting like an asshole. That's called reality.
ReplyDelete2 sides to every story....Asked to re-direct and the supplies would be delivered...
ReplyDelete"This happened after numerous warnings from Israel and the Israeli Navy that were issued prior to the action. The Israel Navy requested the ships to redirect toward Ashdod where they would be able to unload their aid supplies which would then be transferred over land after undergoing security inspections.
During the boarding of the ships, the demonstrators onboard attacked the IDF Naval personnel with live fire and light weaponry including knives and clubs. Additionally one of the weapons used was grabbed from an IDF soldier. The demonstrators had clearly prepared their weapons in advance for this specific purpose".
Sorry, sjk, but you're describing draconian methods dictated by Israel to get those supplies to Gaza; supplies like concrete, which were on board, are forbidden by the Israelis, along with a number of non-military items, which would help rebuilding in Gaza.
ReplyDeleteAnd BTW, the ship where 19 were killed was a passenger ship; this was an unprovoked attack by Israel, with IDF personnel coming down from a helicopter, fully armed, on mostly sleeping people; a "surprise" attack, as it were.
This was a particularly grievous act on the part of Israel.
These were people from a number of countries on those ships, including even a Holocaust survivor, that support the Palestinians right to exist in their own country, and Israel is being roundly condemned worldwide for this act of aggression.
I'll believe what the israeli government says when I see complete video to back up their claims.
ReplyDeleteSorry anon, NOt buying it. When a really big ship asks a really small ship to divert, you divert. As soon as the Israelis hit the deck they were attacked. As for the concrete, when they stop trying to kill Israelis with every breath they have, maybe they can get on with their lives. The have spent 50 years letting folks like arra-fart use them as pawns for their own personal and political gains. They turn green fields into rocky terror spawning grounds. No other ARab or Muslim countries such as JORDAN will have anything to do with the Palestinians. Except when they murder 1000 of them as they did in 1970. Dont read much about that do ya?
ReplyDeleteNotice, no concrete, no recent rocket attacks on Israel.
sjk from the belly of the plane...
ReplyDeleteBoarding a ship on the high seas is piracy, and those aboard ships being boarded have every right under international law to defend themselves. Whether the pirates are wearing IDF uniforms or they are Somalian renegades, they are a rogue force acting in violation of international law. A major point of the aid missions has been to highlight that Israel's blockade of Gaza has no legitimacy - that it is criminal, an act of war, and an act of callous, wanton repression, and it needs to be dealt with as such by the international community. Israel's claim that it is necessary for the defense of Israel is completely laid to waste by their actions to restrict and prohibit entry of humanitarian supplies that have no military value, and thus pose no threat to Israel.
Further, Israel did not give any assurance that the aid supplies would be delivered to Gaza - they said they would deliver what they arbitrarily deemed appropriate with no mediating party involved. That means whatever they decided not to deliver would never be delivered. Period. Further, they offered no assurance that whatever aid supplies were delivered would be in addition to the supplies they normally allow into Gaza. That leaves open their option to cut back on normal supplies enough to at least nullify their concession, and even to vindictively cut normal supplies to a punishing level in retaliation against the Palestinians.
The one thing Israel has demonstrated consistently is that they are absolutely not entitled to any presumption of good faith in any dealings involving the Palestinians.
sjk, you remind me of the Germans who defended the Nazi gassing of the Jews. Pull your head out of the sand and wipe the prejudice from your eyes.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bU12KW-XyZE&
ReplyDeleteThe "Peace activists" had weapons?! They were told to not come. The tape does not show what you are insinuating Gryphen, not at all. And clearly you don't understand Hamas and the international efforts to make Israel look like big bad murderers.
ReplyDeleteThere ARE two sides to this story. Anti-semitism wins again.
And please I am NO Sarah Palin fan- I hate her.
But the left is going to lose every Jewish leftist unless they start understanding both sides of this story. Hamas does not want peace. Hamas doesn't want a two state solution. They want the end of Israel. And so do most middle eastern countries and many anti-Semites across the world.
If you believe ant-semitism is not part of all this, then clearly you are not unbiased in your readings and opinion.
And Sarah does not support Israel for the same reason that Jewish people do so please do not bring her up in relation to this. That comment is a slap in the face to every Jewish Democrat who supports Israel. And by the way that is 80% of most Jews.
Did you ever think that maybe the real reason behind flotilla was not peace and bringing supplies? Do all of you know for a fact that was their purpose, No you don't. Perhaps they wanted an incident like this or perhaps they are transporting weapons to Gaza.
Have you been IN Gaza and Israel? I have. They do not need supplies like this sorry. If you haven't been there, you really can't understand both sides.
I'm disappointed in you Gryphen for wading into this and passing judgement based on a single video.
I'm confused - how is this Sarah Palin's fault?
ReplyDeleteThey seem to have revised the number of dead to 9 and the number injured to around 30.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.guardian.co.uk/world/blog/2010/may/31/israel-troops-gaza-ships
sjk from the belly of the plane said...
ReplyDelete"Notice, no concrete, no recent rocket attacks on Israel."
Perhaps you should try something more logical, such as, "No rockets, no rocket attacks ..." I would also remind you that it was a naval blockade that Israel used as their casus belli to attack Egypt in 1967, and it was Israel's naval blockade of Gaza (among other cease-fire violations) that led to the rocket attacks against Israel in 2008.
There is a big difference between "just cause" and "just actions." It's a difference Israel has a long history of disingenuously dismissing while pretending that because their cause is just (in their eyes), whatever they do is thereby justified, and that's total bullshit, just as it was total bullshit when the American wing of the Likud, the neocons, adopted the same position under Bush/Cheney.
* Name Free Gaza Movement
ReplyDelete* Location Cyprus
* Web http://freegaza.org
* Bio A human rights group that in August 2008 sent the first international boats to land in the port of Gaza in 41 years. We want to break the siege of Gaza.
Latest messages from Free Gaza via Twitter:
# From various news reports:16 dead, 6 Turks, 10 Internationals, 50/80 wounded,3 wounded from European campaign boat.Opening fire on all boats about 4 hours ago via web
# They were waving white flags not clubs. http://www.livestream.com/insaniyardim about 5 hours ago via web
# We will not stop.We will go again.Please, donate for the next trip.We have the Rachel Corrie and another boat.We WILL go until Gaza is free about 5 hours ago via web
# Israel cannot confiscate every bit of footage, every piece of tape. They cannot tape our mouths shut as we tell the story of their attack about 6 hours ago via web
# Footage from IHH boat on YouTube of passengers holding up white flags. Sound of firing in the background. about 6 hours ago via web
# Marvi Marmara still at sea with 100s on board. Injured have been evacuated. Other boats dragged into port. about 6 hours ago via web
# Israel has just announced that it will prosecute the #Freedom Flotilla members who "attacked" its soldiers. about 6 hours ago via web
# Three people wounded on the European Campaign to the End the Siege boat, including the captain. More than one ship attacked about 6 hours ago via web
# Call the Israeli Foreign office and INSIST that they tell us who has been killed and wounded and where our prisoners are. about 6 hours ago via web
# SM Media Office: Physicians for Human Rights sending doctors to Rambam to help and intervene if necessary #Flotilla about 9 hours ago via web
# One boat in Ashdod, five on the way Contact says"we're surrounded by a large number of riot police, about to start demonstrating"#Flotilla I about 9 hours ago via web
http://twitter.com/freegazaorg
Look I don't have a real strong opinion about the Israel and the Palestinian conflict. It is not one of the many conflicts in the world that I spend a great deal of time thinking about.
ReplyDeleteHowever the Israelis boarded these vessels in INTERNATIONAL WATERS. regardless of what they thought might be on those vessels they should have at least waited until the ships were in waters that Israel has a right to protect. If Iran did this, we would have a fleet of navy warships on their way there right now.
I posted this video, and the accompanying news link, because this seems like a very important story and I thought many of you would like a forum to express your opinions. (It cannot be Sarah Palin all day, every day.)
At this point I am still watching news footage and YouTube videos to get a clearer sense of exactly what happened. I am trying to stay neutral, but much of what I have seen, including taking the cell phones and video equipment away from the civilians, does NOT look good for the Israelis.
If you have any information to share that explains the Israeli side better please provide it. And also let's try to treat each other with civility. This is an emotional issue, but name calling and verbal attacks will not help to bring light to this subject.
Gryph,
ReplyDeleteThank you for covering this tragedy. I've been covering it for firedoglake as it came looming forward, since back around May 20th.
sjk,
You are wrong, both morally and in the legal sense. The UN Security Council is meeting right now. NATO will be covering this overt breach of Article Five of the NATO Doctrine tomorrow. Turkey has just announced that their navy will escort the next flotilla.
You will find yourself increasingly isolated as the immorality of the right-wing, racist Israeli government becomes more obvious to thinking people.
I'm no supporter of Hamas, for sure, but the people of Gaza deserve dignity. The people of the West Bank deserve the land Israeli settlers have stolen from them back. Now.
International waters, Human Rights and aids should stand for something bigger than the sides of the issue.
ReplyDeleteMessages via twitter tell us how Israel handled the confrontation of aids being delivered to Gaza despite Israel warnings.
# Call to the world from the people on the boats. This flotilla is bringing supplies the people of Gaza and are being met by military force about 22 hours ago via web
# The signals are going up and down. Israel is doing its best to block the satellite. about 22 hours ago via web
# another GPS message right now from the #Flotilla, they are still going ahead about 22 hours ago via web
# CHALLENGER 2 CONTACTED BY IDF RADIO A/O APPROACHED BY IDF SHIPS about 23 hours ago via web
# HELP signal on www.witnessgaza.com. Please stay and watch about 23 hours ago via web
# contact location of the #Flotilla with Israel Navy added to the map at http://witnessagaza.com about 23 hours ago via web
# We may loose the wireless. We didn't expect them now. We thought they will arrive at the morning, please stay in touch with the other boats about 23 hours ago via web
# From the IHH ship: people here put there life jackets, every body preparing here. We are in international waters about 23 hours ago via web
# From the IHH ship...3 boats are coming, not two, 3 israeli boats, we are 78 mile from Israel about 23 hours ago via web
# Two israeli ships coming toward us. they contact the ship asked who we are and disappeared, getting close to the ship we can see them
http://twitter.com/freegazaorg
==========Sorry Gryphen, this is not spam. I'll stop now.
I agree it doesn't look good for Israel. Attacking a ship at night and in international wars can be considered piracy. The IDF members were being dropped by helicopters which is not the usual manner of interdiction. This looked like an attack and the passengers had every right to fight off the invasion with whatever weapons they had at hand. How was this different than the Somalian pirates?
ReplyDeleteanon @9:28. Comparing me to a nazi? FU! I am Jewish and if you TRIED to say that to my face, we'd have a problem. you have a problem. go read some history. nevermind.
ReplyDeleteSo let me get thius straight. Israel initiates an attack on civilians in international waters, then claims self defense for the soldiers involved for killing and wounding said civilians who were defending themselves. What about the right for these civilians to defend themselves?
ReplyDeleteThis is all on Israel. What they are claiming is the same as if some hoodlum attacked you on a city street and then you tried to defend yourself and the hoodlum shot you dead and claimed he was justified because he shot you in self defense.
Unbelievable!
Hoke, the concrete was something someone else mentioned. I just happened to connect a few dots for ya. Non concrete, no recent rocket attacks. The Israelis first priority is self preservation and they have LOTS of experience and are GOOD at it. Perfect? no...But history has shown time and time again that any concessions Israel is willing to make is NEVER enough. NEVER.
ReplyDeleteLet the Palestinians get what they get from the Arab brothers which is shit. they get shit from their own people and tend just to be used as pawns by their own people for their own agendas. In the meantime they NEVER stop plotting the death of Israel. Never. "When the Arabs learn to love their own children more than they hate Israel, there will be peace".
hey gryphen remember, if you don't unquestioningly support the actions of the israeli government, then that automatically makes you an anti-semite.
ReplyDeletetired of hearing that line of shit yet?
To the apologists for Israel's attack on the Aid flotilla:
ReplyDeleteSorry, but Israel is just not little Davey against Goliath anymore. They have one of the best militaries in the world now, including very formidable nuclear capabilities. A bully playing the victim card won't get much international sympathy. And rightly so.
When the WTC attack on 9/11/2001 happened, the US had the world's sympathy and support, but GWB exploited our true victimization far beyond legitimacy by expanding the conflict to wars against two countries, with consequent loss of support and sympathy from the international community.
sjk, I've thought over the past months that you've often had interesting contributions and insights re the SP fiasco, so your generalizations and broad-brushing of the Arabs in this matter is coming as a surprise and is shocking. The manipulative Golda Meir quote is not apropos at all in this situation.
ReplyDeletegee phil, of course you are right. you have a blog!
ReplyDeleteLegally the one thing that Israel botched is the int'l waters thing. They should have waited but who knows what intel they had. They asked repeatedly for the convoy NOT to attempt the delivery and to divert. Nah, lets provoke an international incident instead. They intentionally had young and old on board as shields, which sounds familiar. They attacked the troops landing on their ship. I get that, but If they had complied it wouldnt have happened. right or wrong when someone with a big boat and guns asks me to divert, I'm diverting. Unless you seek to have a confrontation.
Other than that, the moral issue of which you speak is entirely the doing of the so called "leaders" of the Palestinians who could give 2 shits what happens to them and YOU KNOW IT. its all about their internal power struggles and eliminating Israel. Period. The Palestinian people are pawns. And you know it. Do I feel bad for the folks in Gaza? NO! They harbor and elect terrorists who want to destroy Israel. Not ashamed to say they have done this to themselves. Their leaders have betrayed them for decades, and any concessions by Israel are met with rockets and suicide bombers. When your "neighbors" have been trying to kill you for 60 years there is no moral high ground. WTF did arra-fart ever do for his people? Schools? Infrastructure? Healthcare? nah. no butter just guns...he made billions and left the people to rot in the camps. camps NOT IN ISRAEL. The Arabs treat the Palestinians like "sand n*****s". ( I HATE that term, but it is what it is)
Sorry dude. Can't buy it. The Palestinians are smart, industrious people with HORRIBLE leadership for as long as I can remember. Stop trying to get Jerusalem, work on some farms and clean water and schools that dont preach hate for Jews and the West and MAYBE they'll have a chance, IF the Arab powers in the region will let that happen. Its doubtful as if you let your pawns thrive they tend to not be pawns any longer. Shalom.
emrysa@11:46AM. Thank you. Many people--including Jews in Israel and the United States, by the way--are becoming very tired of hearing the anti-semite line. Frankly, I'm surprised to see "sjk from the belly of the plane" play this particular card.
ReplyDelete2 sides. always 2 sides.
ReplyDelete"It should be emphasized that both the State of Israel and the IDF made repeated calls to the flotilla, telling them that all goods and humanitarian aid could be transferred according to the secure and approved methods in place today, as is done on a near daily basis," the Israel Defense Forces said in a written statement.
People aboard five of the six ships agreed to let Israeli soldiers search through their goods for possible weapons, Netanyahu said.
But those aboard the sixth ship "deliberately attacked" the soldiers, beating, clubbing and stabbing them, he said...
A senior Israeli military official, speaking on condition of anonymity in an account cleared by military censors, said troops had planned "not to fight" in dealing with peace activists on the flotilla.
The official displayed a box containing switchblade knives, slingshots and metal balls and bats he said had been confiscated from one of the boats. "This was not spontaneous," he said. "This was planned."
"They were not expecting to be attacked," said Jonathan Peled, minister-counselor for the Israeli Embassy in Washington. "It was a provocation. These were terrorists disguised as humanitarians."
He said the soldiers were carrying paintball pistols when they boarded the flotilla, but switched to bullets when a naval commander was stabbed and others were attacked with knives and metal bars.
"Unfortunately, this was not the case. IDF naval forces were met with premeditated violence, evident by the activists' use of clubs, metal rods, and knives, as well as the firing of two weapons stolen from the soldiers, causing for defensive action on behalf of the forces who felt their lives were endangered."
2 sides. always 2 sides.
What is always interesting is that the Israeli people and media have many opinions but here in America, there is only one opinion allowed in the media....and in politics....blind support of Israel.
ReplyDeleteIt becomes very hard to support them when they won't act like grownups and of course, everything they do is just like WE did it, to the world.
http://sites.google.com/site/palestiniangenocide/
ReplyDeleteFebruary 23, 2010
ReplyDeleteWhat is being done to help the 'poor' Palestinians . . . and what role is Israel playing?
Dear Friend of FLAME:
Radical leftists from the U.S., the U.K. and other Western nations charter ships in their (so far unsuccessful) attempts to run the Israeli blockade of Gaza, claiming that the Palestinians are victims of a humanitarian crisis imposed by Israel. Of course, the media cover the stunt widely.
We also read press reports referring to high unemployment and poverty among the Palestinians, especially within the so-called "refugee camps," and especially in Hamas-controlled Gaza.
These reports do not, however, bother to report the reasons for the blockade, the unemployment and the poverty. They do not mention that the root causes of these conditions are the open, ongoing war waged by Hamas against Israel, the refusal of West Bank-based Fatah to negotiate peace with Israel, and the use by Palestinian authorities of hundreds of millions of dollars in humanitarian aid to purchase weapons and support militias, instead of to invest in industrial development.
Instead the press blames Israel for the Palestinians' troubles. Time and again, we see the tendency of liberals to treat the Palestinians like noble savages who don't mean it when they say they want to push the Jews into the sea, who are not responsible for their fate when for 60 long years they have refused to recognize the Jewish state, and who despite more than 2,000 years of Jewish history in the holy land, still claim they are victims of Jewish colonialist invaders.
Forget the fact that the blockade was set up to prevent the shipment of weaponry and weapon-building materials into Gaza and that Israel has already detected many arms-bearing vessels and turned them away. Forget the fact that Israel allows shipments of tons of food and other materials into Gaza. Forget the fact that Gaza's food markets are full of supplies and thriving.
Forget the fact, too, as is highlighted in this week's FLAME Hotline, that Israel itself is helping nurture the Palestinian economy in the West Bank. The incisive and revelatory article below, by Tom Gross, former Middle East Correspondent for the (London) Sunday Telegraph, dispels many of the false myths about the economic condition of the Palestinian territories and Israel's helpful role it preparing them for possible statehood---without pressure or meddling from the Obama administration.
Please review this piece and forward it on to friends and colleagues.
Am Yisrael chai! Long live the people Israel!
Best regards,
Jim Sinkinson
Director, FLAME
“Peace will only come when the Arabs finally accept the reality of Israel. And that is not a myth — that is a fact!”
Just look at the suffering in Gaza:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.paltoday.ps/arabic/News-64161.html
MORE MERCEDES THAN IN TEL AVIV
http://www.factsandlogic.org/hotline_archive/flame_hotline_022310.html
Wandering around downtown Nablus the shops and restaurants I saw were full. There were plenty of expensive cars on the streets. Indeed I counted considerably more BMWs and Mercedes than I've seen, for example, in downtown Jerusalem or Tel Aviv.
sjk from the belly of the plane -
ReplyDeleteIt's long past time where we stopped giving Israel's government a free pass in committing atrocities against the Arab people they stole the land from.
Long past time. I'm sure Sarah Palin will be outraged that innocent people in international waters resisted having their vessels boarded in SWAT tactics.
Israel, like Palin, has no intention of being a good neighbor. And I wish our current administration had the balls to become a truly impartial mediator.
All this hatred based on fairy tales written many thousands of years ago. When will is stop. Religion causes more problems than it ever has solved. When will people just give it up and learn to think for themselves?
ReplyDeleteThey have become the evil they feared.
ReplyDeleteSorry, sjk from the belly of the plane, I'm voting you off the island here.
ReplyDeleteDon't worry, sjk - there is not an American president alive who won't reflexively bend over for Israel, even though so many of the rest of us - Jewish and non-Jewish alike - see Israel for the blatant warmonger it is. You can count on Obama to bleat some weak protests and then have the U.S. abstain from voting for condemnation of Israel. That will lead to the Muslim world hating the U.S. even more if that's possible.
ReplyDeleteAs for what this has to do with SP? She's sitting there rubbing her hands at the prospect of Israel FINALLY getting on with it and starting WWIII, to usher in the rapture for her and her fundie friends. She'll come out supporting Israel. Surprised she hasn't by now. RAM must have the day off.
White flags my ass !
ReplyDeleteThe National ABC feed just showed the soldiers being attacked with clubs.
When stopped by armed ships and soldiers the smart thing would be to do as you are told.
Unless,...... you WANT a confrontation !
Film at 11 !
anon@ 1:06 PM, if anything I said is untrue, please let me know. The "broadbrush" you think I use is as applicable as the Meir paraphrase. All true. all verifiable. The Jordanians have murdered/killed more Palestinians than anyone.The GAza strip gets 15K tons of supplies per week. This floatilla was full of folks both good and bad. They had been asked by many NOT do do this. They were asked to divert or be boarded. No surprise at being boarded. Did things go south? Yes indeed. Why did that 6th boat react DIFFERENTLY than the other 5? If the goal was to truly get supplies thru, then make your point, dont risk the boarding and let the international community react. They provoked the wrong dog, at the wrong time, in the wrong place for the wrong reason AFTER they were warned.
ReplyDeleteThe government in Israel is the equivalent of the Bush administration. Their most popular news organization is the equivalent of Fox. I'm an American Jew. I have many associates who immigrated here from Israel. They live for Fox News, especially Glenn Beck, and they despise Obama. When I see Fox defending Israel's actions, I'll know they were not provoked.
ReplyDeleteEnnealogic,
ReplyDeleteIt long past the time when we can consider Israels neighbors as wanting anything other than the destruction of Israel. If you can't see that then TFB and change the channel in yer head. It is what it is. Anytime the 2 parties have been close the Arabs reject it because it isnt 100% what they want.
If the '67 or '73 wars had been successful for the Arabs then we wouldnt be having this discussion as Israel would NOT EXIST!!! Dont you get it? This isnt about 6 boats of supplies that arent critical to Gaza. It was about provocation. ANd Israel reacted in the wrong place.
It is always about the existence of Israel. Always will be.
Your opinions are truly loved by Iran. And that puzzles me.
I have opinions. I have facts. I have emotions.
I know that Jordan MURDERED 1-2K Palestinians in 1970 in the camps that werent in Israel. I know that yessir arra-fart stole perhaps BILLIONS in aid money and bought apts. in Paris and lots of war making goods. Did he build hospitals and schools and farms? Nah...Israel made the desert green and when they gave up the land it became desert again.
As for voting me off the Island, not likely. Not likely at all. I'll start my own island. sjk world.
sjk @ 1:11 PM said:
ReplyDelete"Legally the one thing that Israel botched is the int'l waters thing."
Yeah, who cares about laws and legality?
Reminds me of that fuddy duddy law about getting a warrant to search someone's house or property. How many times has evidence been thrown out of court, even when the evidence was overwhelmingly incriminating, because the police didn't follow the law on legal search?
I'm usually sympathetic to Israel, but the "one thing that Israel botched" (which you seem to think is minor, sjk) is actually the most important factor in this whole bloody debacle.
As an American, I'm sure I'm not alone in saying that I'm pretty damn sick of the whole Middle East.
Well I'm glad I was here today and witness 2 sides...always 2 sides.....
ReplyDeleteperplexing that Palin brought most of here.
There are always 2 sides, and it seems the scale tilts one way for far too long. Right or wrong, the scale should be balanced.
I wonder how it is that Gaza will eliminate Israel?......one thing is to call the devil and another one is to see him arrive.
A Jewish friend of mine once told me that the conflict with Israel was about water, access to it. Can anyone weigh in on that?
sjk, you should check out the blog littlegreenfootballs.com
ReplyDeleteSeagull
anon @3:18....Bravo. the truth will get out. something on that 6th boat was rotten.
ReplyDeleteoh, f@#$%, the sh!$ hit the fan here, there is not changing of channel.
ReplyDeleteyou behave sjk, and edit, you're not stranger here and nobody is trying to upset you intentionally.
sjk - It doesn't sound like you've ever befriended a Palestinian whose home was taken by Israeli settlers. You might be surprised at the growing number of Jews critical of this current Israeli government, including American and Israeli Jews. The U.S.'s unconditional support of Israel is a flawed and dangerous policy that must end.
ReplyDeleteCuriouser, I grew up next door to Lebanese Christians. My oldest friend in the world is still one of them.
ReplyDeleteHave you been to the funeral of an innocent Israeli killed by a "random" rocket attack or a suicide bomber on a bus in Tel Aviv? Oh, those event have ceased in the last few years..Wonder why??
Did you send a card or donation or a tree to Israel? Or did you just move on to the next page? I dont know if you did, but I suspect not.
Please, stop the platitudes and excuse making for the Arab thugs and power mongers that use the Palestinians as pawns. Israel didnt murder 1-2K Palestinians in 1970. Jordanian Arabs did.
This is about the elimination of Israel. Period.
If given the choice by many countries, Israel would vanish. if you can prove otherwise please do.
If I tried repeatedly to take your land for decades, slapped you in the face every day for a few years, and every so often killed members of your family, and then you came over to my place and kicked the shit out of me, I cant really complain.
Excuse my language. Who the fuck is Israel to dictate world policy. They were respected at one time. Not any more.
ReplyDeletesjk - I haven't been to either the funeral of an Israeli killed by a Palestinian or to the funeral of a Palestinian killed by an Israeli. I've sent donations for trees in Israel and had donations sent in my name for birthday, wedding, etc. gifts. I've had Palestinian, Lebanese and Israeli friends -- Jews, Christians and Muslims. I don't excuse thugs on any side and will never give up on the possibility of peace.
ReplyDeleteIG, WHo the fuck is hamas? It has you on your knees buying their anti-Semitic destroy Israel list, eh? FUCK hAMAS!!!!
ReplyDeleteOh, poor downtrodden Israel! So misunderstood!
ReplyDeleteAKPetMom said...
ReplyDelete"All this hatred based on fairy tales written many thousands of years ago. When will is stop. Religion causes more problems than it ever has solved. When will people just give it up and learn to think for themselves?"
thank you.
the entire reason this country looks away from atrocities committed by the israeli government - while pointing fingers at everyone else - is because of some crazy ass tale of jesus coming back. it's fucking irrational and makes us looks like idiots, and I for one am sick and tired of the problems that belief in these fairy tales is causing.
what if it was iran that boarded these ships in international waters? everyone would be up in arms, hell the bomb probably would have been dropped on them 30 minutes afterward. so tired of the double standard. all because of jesus.
Anonymous at 4:59 PM sez:
ReplyDelete"When the oppressed are freed, they become the oppressors. It has ever been such throughout all of history."
sad and true. really makes you wonder about the fate of humans.
Gryph - Ixnay on the ewishjay talk. Back to promising more Palin explosions!
ReplyDeleteThis story is not antisemetic, we are critical of our own country when our leaders use abuse and agression. There are a lot of witnesses, many of them are journalists and professionals who will be telling the story. The ships were insepected in Turkey to make sure they were carrying what they said they were carrying. It was communicated the soldiers started firing before they landed on the deck. Even if they did not, they had no business boarding these ships unless they were in waters controlled by their country. Israel has a history of saying they will deliver the aid and not doing it. Yes, this was part aid delivery and part designed to bring attention to the plight of those in the Gaza strip. They certainly were not expecting the Israeli army to shot any of them with live rounds.
ReplyDeletesjk from the belly of the plane said...
ReplyDelete" They attacked the troops landing on their ship. I get that, but If they had complied it wouldnt have happened. right or wrong when someone with a big boat and guns asks me to divert, I'm diverting. Unless you seek to have a confrontation."
Sometimes you have to stand up to bullies. If you walk away everytime someone bigger or stronger threatens you, you'll be doomed to be bullied all your life.
Do you think America's founding fathers should have walked away and sucked eggs because England was bigger and more powerful?
Israel had no moral high ground to attack in international waters. And they should have been smart enough to realize that this incident would cost them dearly in the war of public opinion, and that is where this conflict will eventually be decided. If you lose support for what you are doing you will eventually lose. Look what happened to the Republicans after 8 years of Bush/Cheney.
If someone is trying to bait you, you don't take the bait.unless you are stupid or arrogant, or both.
Let Israel make its' own way, without British or American support. If they want to behave like bullies then they can do that but without foreign aid. It's about time that they cut the umbilical to other countries that aid them financially.
ReplyDeleteIf Israel can't make it on it's own, without the diplomatic and monetary support of other countries then it doesn't deserve recognition as a state/country entity.
Same goes for the entire Middle East. Make it work. Leave us (America and others) out of it. Fight amongst yourselves and may the winner take the spoils.
Using the "never again" excuse proffered by some militant Jews and their allies I, as an Irish descendant of survivors of the Great Hunger--the holocaust the Irish experienced at the hands of the English stemming from a genocidal policy to depopulate Ireland which began in earnest under Elizabeth the 1st, I would have a right to retribution ad infinitum against the English (who still occupy part of Ireland).
ReplyDeleteThe fact is violence begets violence.
A diplomatic, two-state solution is the only solution for Israel and the Palestinians, as l reasonable people agree. But that does not fit with the aims of the neocons, Likuds and other extemists supported by the US which uses Israel shamelessly as a fortress in the Middle East.
sjk, I am the anon from 9:28, and for your information I am a professor of history.
ReplyDeleteSarah Palin's followers support her no matter what she does, no matter how wrong she is. You support Israel with the same blind emotion. Curious. (You also have a very foul mouth and poor self control. And I would gladly say that to your face.)
"never again" excuse? "Militant Jews"?
ReplyDeleteYou want to go there, really? I feel sorry for your ancestors. And for you, also too. All I can say is the comparison is weak at best, unless the Brits gassed SIX Million your people to death. and I see NO mention of the 60 years of continuous attempts to destroy Israel. The anti Semitism sits just below the surface of your pale irish skin.
To sjk
ReplyDeleteAnd I feel sorry for your suffering as well.
As for your points;
First, arguing numbers in discussing genocide is specious and misleading, as if a lesser number number of killings could make it more "acceptable" or less horrible. A murder is a murder--it is not quantifiable.
Second, many other groups have suffered genocide. For example, whole tribes of Indians were entirely wiped out in the US during the westward expansion.
As for Irish history: the country was depopulated by about half during the famine years in the 1840s. The English conducted a war against the Irish for about 800 years. How many Irish died as a result of centuries of occupation and repression is uncounted.
SJK, your above answer to 10:,30 pm shows you to be a bigoted, foul mouthed racist. F-u and f Israel. You have finally accomplished something that has never been done before. You have driven me to abandon any perspective when it comes to Israel and view them as the monsters that they are.
ReplyDeleteFunny. When the oppressed become the oppressors they prove themselves to be very adept to the role.
sjk, please don't forget that there were 6 million non-Jews killed by the Nazis as well. They count also.
ReplyDelete