Tuesday, June 21, 2011
Personally I think this is the best way to learn about Mormonism.
I am sort of fascinated with the judgemental attitude, and out right rejection, or Mormonism by other Christian denominations. Especially in light of the fact that we may have two Presidential candidates who are members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.
You know as it turns out I actually do know quite a bit about Mormonism, as I spent my youth studying various religions, philosophies, and their impact on the world.
Essentially I do not place ANY religious belief above another, yet Mormonism has always seemed to expect an even more profound suspension of disbelief than have other western religions, since it is so much newer and somewhat more radical in its interpretation of Christianity.
In my opinion only Scientology requires an even more profound denial of contradictory evidence.
So perhaps for that reason I have always been a little fascinated with the Mormon religion.
Especially since other Christians often treat it as ridiculous and unbelievable. Which I always considered odd since their own faith requires a suppression of critical thinking and the complete acceptance of things which an ancient book that has been translated hundreds of times, and updated and modified over and over again throughout the centuries, tells them is a factual account of events that happened many thousands of years ago.
Which begs the eternal question. Why is YOUR belief worthy of your unquestioning faith, yet others are deemed unworthy, or even loony?
And on that note why is 22% of the country hesitant to vote for a candidate solely because they are Mormon? For someone like me, that just seems hypocritical.
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When we are able to elect an atheist to the presidency, I'll say we've come a long way.
ReplyDeleteUntil then, the religious will always fight amongst themselves for superiority.
And still, a cult is a cult is a cult.
As a former Mormon, a watcher of the faith for a long time, I can answer your question by asking you whether you would feel comfortable voting for a Scientologist. You suggest that there is a difference in the degree of suspension of disbelief required, and I agree. Only I would put it that it is a matter of degree, as well, just how much of a cult each organisation is.
ReplyDeleteI believe -- again, speaking as one who was raised Mormon and left as an adult -- that Mormonism does comprise a cult. Outsiders don't seem to appreciate this because of the veneer of normality its adherents strive for. But the difficulty of walking away from the indoctrination is extreme. It doesn't reach the degree of cultishness that Scientology does, but it's on the continuum. In fact, I imagine that in a hundred year's time the level of public acceptance of Scientology will be roughly equivalent to the acceptance of Mormonism today.
I'm not sure how I can explain it simply in a short time, but there are aspects to the indoctrination that begin early and never let up. From a child, I, like all Mormon children was trained to repeat certain phrases, affirming that I 'knew' such and such to be true, when, in fact, I did not. I knew I was supposed to 'know' and so it because 'truth', from the time I could talk.
Mormons use the threat of eternal separation from their loved ones to keep their members in line, they collect a 10 percent+ tithing from all members on gross income with a ferocity that would surprise you, drilling it in that God demands this. In fact, without paying, one can be kept from seeing one's children being married.
In their 'sacred' temples they teach the secret handshake required for entrance into their highest degree of heaven. (I am not exaggerating this; it is a fact.)
Though they have back off this, they have taught down through the years that America is to be restored to highest glory when Jesus comes to reign, and that theocracy for which they are preparing is, naturally, framed through their own interpretation of 'The Gospel', their shorthand for Mormonism.
Part of this belief references the leaders of Mormonism saving the United States when the 'Constitution shall hang by a thread.' For more on this, Goggle the 'White Horse Prophecy.'
I understand your concern that Mormonism is being unfairly treated, and, believe me, I accept the inherent need to suspend disbelief required with all religions, but Mormonism truly has an ugly underbelly that is real. It's not just prejudice that turns people off. It's an organisation that truly stunts individual awareness and honesty.
I could go on . . .
Your reader in Salzburg
I've done genalogical research for thirty-five years. Doing research in the early days (before the internet) required going to LDS libraries both locally and in Salt Lake City. Thus, I've encountered many Mormons and will say that they were always polite and helpful and NEVER tried to convert me. The religion's requirement that they offer salvation to their ancestors which requires a great deal of research on their part has given the world a great treasure. Mormons have combed the world in order to copy and preserve any public record from the past and share it freely with the public. It is thanks to them that we can know who our ancestors were.
ReplyDeleteMormons are good people - different, but good.
It is my personal opinion that all religions are a bunch of patent nonsense. In their extremities they can range anywhere from being a public nuisance to being a danger to society in general.
ReplyDeleteThat being said, I begrudge no one their right to pray to the god of their choice and in the temple of said deity.
As long as it doesn't infringe on my right to not believe.
I don't care what they say...they can't hurt me...I wear magic underwear!
ReplyDeleteAh, yes, but Huntsman is the *stealth* Mormon--doesn't wear it like a shiny missionary badge ala Romney.
ReplyDeleteI like to call myself a recovering Mormon, not so much because I dispute the tenets of the Church as the Corporation running it. After 20 years of intensely active participation, I found myself having no trust in Church leadership any more. Seems that "discernment" didn't include any of the Priesthood members picking up on my newly ex-husband sexually abusing children that entire time.
Like too many other branches of Christianity, there is a vast difference between what Jesus taught and what the most flagrant Christians do. So I continue to have faith in God, but not the Church. Make sense?
I am a mainstream Christian and I don't dismiss Mormonism. Everyone has a right to believe what they wish.
ReplyDeleteIncluding Dominionists, right ;-)?
I saw that number on the Tony's and assumed that the lyrics are strictly humorous, though. For me it seemed pretty mocking. The South Park guys aren't exactly known for being into religious anything. They say the show ultimately honors the sincere intent of the missionary characters, however.
I looked it up and had hoped to find out that one of the writers is formerly Mormon. Then I'd be more comfortable with it. Maybe one of them is, but I couldn't find anything to indicate that is the case.
(Didn't look back on your recent religion thread, but was someone terribly critical of the Mormons on there? I wrote that I thought Evangelicals would be fine voting for a Mormon. Hmmm.)
I just think it is funny that given that most religions require a belief in some kind of magical happenings, they each will deride another religion's belief in their particular magical happenings. This isn't to say that I don't have my own magical beliefs but this intolerance is what has made me a religious skeptic.
ReplyDeleteToki ..... the guy who was publishing RAMs tweets about the Palins is releasing more on his website .... pretty interesting
ReplyDeletehttp://fotns-vf.blogspot.com/
I could never get past the fact that Joseph Smith was a notorious flimflam man who could divine the location of hidden treasure by staring into his hat and get people to pay him to tell them where to dig. And having seen the place where he found the bones of Zelph the White Lamanite I get even more skeptical.
ReplyDeletePutting that aside, the LDS/Mormon religion is no worse than any other collection of beliefs that a small group of people (church hierarchy) use to control a larger group of people (believers). Of course the others are evil so it would take some doing to be worse than the Southern Baptists, Falwellites, Hagee-ites, 700 Clubbers, and the Pope.
Two books to read if you don't read anything else about Mormonism:
ReplyDeleteNo Man Knows My History by Fawn Brody
and One Nation Under Gods by Richard Abanes
The first one you cannot find in Utah libraries. They get them in and they are checked out, never to return (or so they were when we lived there in 1992-1996).
Read them, Gryphen, if you have not already done so. I guarantee whatever you think you know about this "religion" will vastly increase and it will scare the crap out of you.
As a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, I don't think is is the best way to get to know my faith. HOWEVER, although I have not seen the play, I understand it's good fun. The so-called 'christians', including those 'pastors' in Wassilla who hold whole seminars about the LDS Church and the evils of it (Palin was a parshioner of one of them)need to check their bibles again for who gets to decide who's christian and who is not.
ReplyDeleteAre we sure that 22% are not people who might not vote for any candidate with a conservative Christian affiliation?
ReplyDeleteIt may not be a particular distaste for and/or judgement of Mormonism.
Ok, dear Gryphen. I think you need to go back and read those poll numbers again.
ReplyDeleteIt says a full 74% of Christians would vote for a Mormon.
I think that kind of undercuts your complaint here.
Huntsman’s roots in the LDS Church are strong. His grandfather David B. Haight was a member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles and his father, Jon Huntsman Sr., is currently a member of the Fifth Quorum of the Seventy, an area-governing body of the church.
ReplyDeleteSo, he can claim he is not really that much of a Mormon, but he would be lying.
abirato 4:36
ReplyDeleteYou are not alone in what you have posted. I concur with your comment.
To listen to many, they 'spin' the writings to suit their needs but preach it as the 'truth'.
As a significant number said in the last Presidential election - 'I didn't leave the Republican party - The Republican party left me'.
I say the same in religion.
Reminder:
ReplyDeleteDavid Letterman's schedule shows Keith Olbermann doing the Top 10 List tonight
de
Gryphon, to the 22% it's very simple:
ReplyDeleteMormons are not Christians.
They will never vote for anybody who is not a Christian.
Approximately 22% would not vote for a Catholic, either, although I don't think it's the same 22%. (A whole 'nother can of worms, I know.)
Having had several courses in comparative religion and studied on my own, I would say that the LDS is a post-Christian religion. The Jews believe that the Messiah has not come yet, Christians believe that Jesus was the Messiah and will come again at some point in the future, and Mormons believe that Jesus is the Messiah and has already come back (but only to the peoples of the Americas).
If I thought Romney or Huntsman would make a good President, their religion would not be a factor in my decision to vote for them. Unfortunately, there are still a lot of people who think you have to be a Christian to be POTUS.
Mormons are more beholding to the central command than other religions. Most Americans ignore the Vatican almost all US Catholic women use birth control.
ReplyDeleteI don't want ANY religious nuts in control of my country and even being a Mormon, no matter how little you claim to believe, is a non start for me.
Don't forget that there was great concern that people wouldn't vote for JFK because he was Catholic. (didn't want the Pope to have undue influence over our country, dontcha know)
ReplyDeletePersonally, even though I'm not religious, I would be less comfortable with an atheist because in the end, an atheist is just as much a zealot who has accepted, as fact, something they cannot prove.
Someone who is TRULY religious (not these pretend "christians" in the republican party who actually worship Ayn Rand and money as their god) is at least holding themselves to a higher standard.
Give me the first agnostic president!
Though I agree with Gryf, Mormonism is pretty whack. It's one thing to place your faith in an ancient book compiled from many sources. It's another thing entirely to tack on a volume 3 that came from a single source, a guy who claims Jesus gave it to him on golden plates which he "lost" but luckily, in his only moment of photographic memory, was able to write it all down for us.
To me, Scientology actually has more credibility until you get to the crazy Xenu crap. What Hubbard did was basically create a "science" out of directed confession. I actually think the E-meter tests have some nugget of validity and if expanded by actual scientists and doctors, could actually have some real therapeutic value. Too bad he twisted it to a cult designed to generate personal wealth and smothered it in bad science fiction.
Can I say that the only reason I know that people like Sarah Palin exist, is because of a Mormon CEO that was hired at the hospital that my mom worked at. Never before had I ever witnessed such blatant nepotism for those who were LDS and religious discrimination against those who were not LDS, and sexism/ageism as well (you know, the only purpose women serve is to submit and procreate). My mother was an employee at this community hospital for 25+ years and had worked her way up to director of diagnostic imaging. She, and about a dozen other long term employees, was fired for her "resistant" attitude b/c she didn't think it was necessary to spend money that was not there to be spending. To make a long story short, the Mormon CEO has now moved on, and in his wake has left a demoralized work force and millions of dollars of debt. Sound familiar? Egomania seems to be epidemic in America!
ReplyDeleteHuntsman's announcement was a dud.
ReplyDeleteBill
Huntsman's announcement was a dud.
ReplyDeleteBill
A tip of the hat, and sincere thanks to "A Reader in Salzburg" for taking the time and effort to write their post. Well said, and I agree 100%.
ReplyDeleteI was "born and raised covenant" as a Mormon child, and was a true believer for the first 25 years of my life.
As Margot commented about genealogy - I was baptized for several dead people at the Salt Lake City temple. Who were they? Did they want religious work done in their name? I don't know to this day.
When Jewish names were submitted for "baptism for the dead" the Church of Latter-Day Saints was told to back the hell off when rabbi's in the area were informed of this practice.
I will tell you this, Mormons do not respect the separation of church and state. They look forward to a theocracy - based on THEIR idea of "god's will".
One thing that the Mormon organisation is very good at is controlling its membership. Obedience to the 'Prophet' and to 'The Brethren' -- blind obedience -- is drilled into the members from young age. They are very efficient in turning out organised groups to carry out directions from the centralised authority, and they are used to giving their time.
ReplyDeleteSo, for example, church members were mobilised in an extremely efficient and well-funded machine to push through Proposition 8 in California. They tried to hide their tracks, and to some extent they did, but Fred Karger forced some transparency so they were held liable for some campaign finance law violations. I suspect there were far more that were not revealed.
For more insight into the role of the Mormons church in fighting marriage equality in California and other states, see Eight: The Mormon Proposition (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/01/29/AR2010012904041.html)
I point this out because it is the recognition of the near-absolute control over the membership that former alarms Mormons. It is not the JFK-Catholic equivalent: it is the Scientology equivalent. It is not a live-and-let-live religion.
They have enormous financial resources, control of a great deal of media and huge real estate holdings, and they are well-known for putting muscle behind getting the things done that they see fit. And they have years of experience at the sleight of hand required to mask their involvement.
It is believed that they are also the primary backers behind the anti-marriage equality group that's fighting civil rights.
Salzburg
Thanks Anon 4:20 for bringing light on some Mormon beliefs. There have been periods in my life when people close to me have had experiences, not favorable, with Mormons.
ReplyDeleteMy Aunt & Uncle moved to Bountiful when their two children were young & in elementary school. As non-Mormons, they were made to stand, on a daily basis, and used as examples for the teacher to point out their deficiencies as "non-believers." My cousins were devastated & came home every day in tears. This went on for weeks despite my Uncle phoning & visiting the PUBLIC school and complaining about the treatment. Finally, he threatened them with a law suit and the open harassment stopped.
Mormonism IS a cult. They're on their way to rival the Catholic church with their wealth. They operate in stealth. Their businesses' employees are Mormon centric, you can't stay long if you don't belong even in the Federal Agencies in Utah. They mimic the Dominionists in their desire to take over the world and their missionaries are spread far & wide. They're heavily involved in politics, buying influence & sinking millions into the process. They spent over $8 million dollars in CA to pass the amendment to take away the rights of gays to marry.
Here in HI, they practically own the islands. Their influence is huge and seemingly unstoppable.
They are dangerous too and no one must underestimate their influence & power. This is the main reason the fundamentalists are opposed to them, they're the competition.
The religious Xtian fanatics come in many flavors and we must stop all of them if we are to save this country. Right now the Dominionists are in the lead position.
I was raised in the Mormon church, attended weekly till I was 18. Probably as a result I've always been interested in comparative religions. Seriously I can't see much of a difference between Mormonism and other Christian faiths. Their beliefs are very similar, and similarly ludicrous. The whole 'tribe of Israelites sailing to America' story is really not that far fetched (Mormons will point to Thor Heyerdahl at this point), or wasn't until DNA evidence became available.
ReplyDeleteThe fact that Mormonism's origin is so young makes it an easy target, which in a way is kind of odd. If the church's founder had been a bronze age desert nomad he would be more believable? Oddly yes.
There's a culture to the LDS church that is very attractive. The South Park guys recognize this, that's probably why their show is so entertaining. The people tend to be genuinely kind, helpful and thoughtful. Of course generalizations are just that -- you'll find turds in any punch bowl.
Living in a fairly small town as a Mormon I did learn one thing: Evangelicals are pricks. Again, with the generalizations -- let me rephrase that -- the evangelical punch bowl has a LOT of turds in it.
Lutherans don't believe Mormonism is ridiculous. They consider it a heresy, along with Jehovah's Witnesses, Scientology and Moonies.
ReplyDeleteThe vast majority of people embrace the faith they were brought up in. Smith knew that, hence putting the indoctrination off children on the fast track through polygamy. Catholics do it through making birth control a sin. Then there are the quiverfull fundamentalists trying to outdo the Duggers.
I've only known a few Mormons in my life and I've found all of them to be hardworking, honest people. If all we ask of religion is to produce people who conform to societies rules of don't lie, don't steal and don't kill, then Mormons fit the bill long with all the rest.
I don't feel comfortable voting for any sort of fundamentalist anything. Those of extreme faith, no matter what the faith, should not be in positions of power as I feel the tendency to rule through their faith is too tempting.
No, I would not vote for a scientologist or a Moonie. Since the Mormon candidates are Republican, won't be voting for them either. Because they're Republicans.
I would not vote for Romney or Huntsman because I don't agree with them. Not because they are Mormon.
ReplyDeleteI agree about the Bible. When I think of how many times it has been translated and how they came up with the original content, it could be the biggest joke of all time. If you traveled through time and met the original writers and told them how it has evolved they might look at you and laugh while elbowing their buddies.
Since some books were selected over others to support a view of that time, the context and meaning could all have been lost. And this is coming from a person that went to church three times a week throughout childhood.
"Under the Banner of Heaven"
ReplyDeleteby Jon Krakauer
nuff said
Anon @ 4:06... a cult is a cult is a cult...
ReplyDeleteQuestion: Do you know the difference between a cult and an established religion?
Answer: Number of adherents!
As soon as the number is large enough in any cult, it invariably becomes accepted religion..
as you said... a cult is a cult...
It is enough to make people of logic and reason despair.
What a fabulous number. I heard Terri Gross interview the guys who wrote that show. I would love to see it, it needs to come to Boston!
ReplyDeleteOn another note, you notice how Romney dodged the question of having a Muslim on his team by saying that in America we accept ALL FAITHS - wink wink wind.
I happen to be one of those Christians who has a problem with Mormonism - I think they managed to take one adolescent's ravings (J. Smith's) and blow it wayyyy out of proportion. Strange stuff.
Joseph Smith was a charismatic, bullying, con-artist grifter. He, also, too, set out to run for President of the United States. His "flying monkeys" were the Danites, his personal army. Mormons are taught a sanitized version of their history. The sexual domination of women, Masonic rituals in their temples, the heavy cultural indoctrination of children, and the strong-arm wealth extraction via "tithes", are just a few of the things this cult glosses over. In fairness, I could never understand a religion based on Human Sacrifice and Magical Sperm either.
ReplyDeleteJust as Mormon leadership were secretive about pouring money and activating church members to pass Prop 8, they also used their influence to defeat the Equal Rights Amendment.
ReplyDeleteWomen are still not recognized as full citizens by the primary document of our country.
When they were founded they thought that black people were less than human and certainly not welcome in their churches. That's enough for me to write them off.
ReplyDeleteThe polygamy and marrying underage girls. Even though they down play it now it is still part of their base beliefs.
I'm going to just say no.
I personally view Scientology and the LDS as simply cults of personality surrounding el-Ron and Joseph Smith. The underlying tenets of both seem to me so patently absurd that there is no way that I can take them seriously.
ReplyDeleteGolden plates that only Joseph Smith and an Italian angel saw? Someone who was booted out of the Navy on a mental discharge as THE prophet/profit? Magic underwear?
Add those little nuggets to the unseemly side of both "churches": the recent historical subjugation of women and blacks in the LDS, the infallible utterances of the Mormon Grand Poobahs, the thievery of Scientology and its vindictive nature toward ex members.
I'm sorry, but it all sounds like just so much bullshit to me.
Anon 4:47. It makes perfect sense indeed!
ReplyDeleteI was born into the mormon religion and was kept in it for nearly 20 years. And while I believe most religions do exhibit ridiculousy cult-like behaviors, the way Mormons go about dictating everything (underwear, diet, books read, what movies to watch, how your time is spent, etc etc etc)is definitely one of the more radical and cntrolling sects.
ReplyDeleteWhen I was 12 years old, I was put in a class with other young women and told that I would not amount to anything unless I married a return missionary and "replenished the earth." Persuing an education was selfish. Our weekly activities included learning how to cook fo the young men. Men were allowed to sit in on the YW, but women were no allowed in any of the men-only meetings.
Women are taught that sex before marriage makes you a "licked cupcake" and that no one will want you. They tell you here's no way to be perfect, but that you should constantly strive for perfection: I was a straight-A student, captain of the speech team, a long-distance runner, president of the national honors society for my school, and in my quest to be more perfect developed an eating disorder (at age 10) and when I still could not attain perfection I began cutting myself. My bishop told me if I did not stop, I would be excommunicated.
There's alsway this huge realm of secrecy with mormons-- they always try to mke everyone think that their family is perfect,but behind closed doors there's nothing but abuse and mental anguish.
4:06 a.m. you are succinctly right on.
ReplyDeleteThe Mormon religion will certainly be under scrutiny this election cycle.
ReplyDeleteInteresting to hear from those of the Mormon faith in this thread.
What I know about Mormons I learned from Wallace Stegner's 1942 "Mormon Country." This book focuses on the hardships endured by Mormons on their westward trek to the Salt Lake City desert. Truly a remarkable feat of human endurance; most people alive today would not be capable of doing the same (because of the physical sacrifice and fortitude needed to make such a journey).
I think most Americans aren't aware of the huge influence Mormons have in the West. They represent the religious foundation here because they've been here for so many generations; the rest of the country was founded and nurtured by Christians. Hence Mormons were the kind of cultural minority to the "Book of Mormon" authors as Jewish people are to people raised in NYC.
I have a lot of respect Mormon actions: extending outreach beyond their community despite the fact their families and community are of paramount importance; being respectful of their own bodies.
I think even those people who were raised as Mormons and later abandoned this faith would not dispute that generally speaking they raise productive citizens and provide an American cultural legacy that most Americans must rely on from other countries (i.e., European settlers and immigrants from other parts of the world).
As an active genealogist, I have to say I am exceedingly ambivalent toward the LDS church. I use their resources because they have so many, and they are accessible. On the other hand, what in the world do they want to do with all that personal information garnered from all over the planet? It sure could give them some leverage should they choose to use it.
ReplyDeleteDo read the Krakauer book that's been mentioned already in this thread, "Under the Banner of Heaven." It's fascinating, and will explain a great many things about Mormonism and its history that most people are unaware of. I don't understand why anyone would follow the religion of an obvious con artist like Joseph Smith.
ReplyDeleteA licked cupcake? Wow, I never heard that before.
ReplyDeleteI associate Mormonism with what they did with Prop 8 in California. And I want to know, if Republicans believe in states rights, and Mormons believe they have the right to go to California and pour money into overturning laws, how can Romney be a candidate?
"Which begs the eternal question. Why is YOUR belief worthy of your unquestioning faith, yet others are deemed unworthy, or even loony?"
ReplyDeleteWell, Gryphen, you've really done it now! You've just proven that ALL religions share the same underlying flaw: every single one is as man-fabricated and loopy as the one that came before. And it will always be thus.
May Zeus bless you all.
Arapaho415 said:
ReplyDelete"I have a lot of respect Mormon actions: extending outreach beyond their community despite the fact their families and community are of paramount importance; being respectful of their own bodies.
"I think even those people who were raised as Mormons and later abandoned this faith would not dispute that generally speaking they raise productive citizens and provide an American cultural legacy that most Americans must rely on from other countries (i.e., European settlers and immigrants from other parts of the world)."
A former member responds:
What outreach? Really? They are very sensitive to public opinion, making extensive use of professional public relations firms, so they are very good at communicating an image of community outreach, but in fact, what do they do? They put on pageants to promote their agenda, spread their highly sanitized version of history. Granted, but as I say, this is to promote an agenda, to mainstream themselves, to recruit converts.
Yes I realize they do public service projects, as do many churches. Most churches don't feel the need to have their volunteers wear matching tee shirts to advertise their presence.
They talk about so many millions in charitable contributions, the amount spent pales beside their annual revenues. Of course, they don't open their books to examination by members or outsiders, so no one really knows.
As for their attention to families, they talk about that, but, ask a Mormon how much time they really spend with family outside the tremendous number of hours they spend in meetings. Ask the son or daughter of one of their lay clergy how many evenings the father is at meetings and not at home.
And, speaking of lay clergy, do you really want to receive spiritual counseling from someone with zero training?
It's image, not substance, that you're accepting without seeing it from the inside.
Respectful of their bodies? Are you aware of how much soft drinks and sugar is consumed among the Mormon community? How much jello and ice cream? God, the number of rice krispies marshmallows we prayed over that they would 'nourish and strengthen our bodies.' Jeez.
Utah leads the nation in Prozac use, is high in rates of suicide, is the FBI's white collar crime capital . . . and on and on.
Speaking of families, Mormons can be very distructive of families when one spouse falls out of disbelief. Really, how family friendly is an organisation that excludes family members from weddings on a regular basis. That counsels one spouse to leave the other if he/she lapses in the faith? That demands tithing before other obligations (like mortgage payments) are met?
Nor is the mythology of crossing the plains as simple as you suggest. Many, many, many of the deaths and hardship resulted directly from Brigham Young's greed and iron-willed control. These were unnecessary deaths, not deaths to be celebrated. This is not a legacy I would applaud.
A former Mormon living in Salzburg
To: A Former Mormon Living In Salzburg 3:15 am
ReplyDeleteI stand corrected.
Mormons, like everyone, have their assets and faults. If I had been raised as a Mormon, I think I would feel much the way you do now.
My only point was that the majority of people who live in the Western U.S. arrived recently (post-World War II). Mormons have been here longer and have a greater legacy and influence in the desert states (California, where I live, included) that I think doesn't occur to the influence drivers living in the Northeast U.S.
To Arapaho415
ReplyDeleteYou're right about the influence, for good or ill. Remember though that others passed through Utah in a similar time frame. Others were settling the West, though it was Brigham Young's vision, as well as his megalomania, that shaped Utah.
I've been thinking about why I keep pressing the point, and I think I should be able to express at this forum as well as any other.
The perception of Mormonism is similar to the way people see Sarah Palin. Some see through her and dislike her, some are rabid fans. But there are some in the middle who take her at face value. Not Palinbots exactly, but those who think she's a 'strong woman', a 'good mother', and so on. Maybe this pool of people is shrinking, but it seemed to be evident when Going Rogue was published.
Or like Babygate. The media have colluded in the Spiral of Silence, and they won't look beyond the surface. It's very frustrating to see so many nails in the coffin, to borrow a phrase, yet the mainstream media won't touch the story.
With Mormonism, you get a similar thing. People accept the image that's actively promoted by a public relations-conscious organisation without checking for the reality. Thus people say the Mormons are so family oriented. In my experience they are about as family oriented or less so than most mainstream Christians or non-religious. All the 'Families are forever' bumperstickers in the world don't add up to squat if the people are tied up in meetings 6 nights a week, or divided because one person doesn't believe or whatever.
Mormons not only believe they are the only religion that has a ritual to formalise 'eternal families' but they don't seem to realise most religions believe they will be with loved ones in heaven. It's crazy, but people don't call them on this BS. 'Oh, yeah, they're so family oriented,' but I bet you (or most) can't tell me one thing that makes them more family oriented except their advertising and PR, so to speak. They have the bumper stickers, so it must be true. They have the Proclamation on the Family, so it must be true. They say they're family oriented, so it must be true.
I believe Sarah and the Palinbots also believe that the Palins and Heaths are family oriented.
And we know what that means.
The only way I can think of, other than that they were commanded to do geneological research (for reasons that ultimately can be linked to polygamy), is that they are insular and clique-ish at times in order to protect them from the influence of the community at large. That's not family orientation so much as isolationism.
Anyway, it's as Jon Steward says of network news: there's a laziness in the acceptance of the glossy version of Mormonism that's annoying to those who know how deceptive it is. It's like the frustration felt by those who believe Palin is a manipulative, lying, crazy fraud only to see many people buy into the glossy Palin-approved version.
Former Mormon in Salzburg
To: A Former Mormon in Salzburg 7:42 am
ReplyDeleteThe unrelenting Mormon PR campaign is interesting, and not something I've given much thought to. The half-hour broadcast from the Tabernacle Choir was a staple in my home when I was growing up. New temples seem to spring up overnight in the West and dominate skylines when they do. (There's a temple here in my suburb of 130,000.)
I doubt that a Mormon can be elected President because most people do view the religion as a "cult" and still have lingering doubts about its continuing patriarchy and polygamous past.
Like I said before, I'd probably be more like Butch Cassidy than Mitt Romney had I been raised a Mormon. However, I do admire the Mormons I've met (mostly via work).