As a person unencumbered with the need to defend any belief based on magical thinking I am free to dismiss ALL religions out of hand.
However as I have grown older and more tolerant I have determined that it is perfectly okay for people to believe in whatever makes their lives easier to handle, just so long as they do NOT attempt to inflict their faith on me and my family.
Which is kind of why I have always been somewhat less tolerant of Mormons, the Jehovah's Witnesses, and Evangelicals. Anybody who comes to my door to tell me their version of a "truth" strikes me as similar to a group going door to door to teach a "stork" or "cabbage patch" based version of human reproduction, base solely on the lies told to them as young children.
It is fine to have a personal faith, but once you take it to the streets, or into politics, you are essentially opening yourself up to increased scrutiny and possible ridicule, which you have to be willing to accept in my opinion.
I can tell you that I have caused more than one door to door proselytizer to run for my home with their hands covering their ears in my time. It never would have happened if they had not incorrectly assumed that the only reason I was NOT a member of their denomination was because I had not been exposed to their version of "truth." Sadly for them, and their tenuous grasp on their faith, such was not the case.
Anybody have a similar point of view to share, or wish to tell me how wrong I am? Feel free.
(H/T to Mediaite.)
Reminds me of a time years ago when Jehovah's Witnesses woke us early every other Sunday morning. My husband told them not to come back, but they ignored him. So the next time, he opened the door wide, stood there in the nude, and asked if he could tell them a bit about OUR religion. They never came back!
ReplyDelete~Pogo
I feel exactly the same way.
ReplyDeleteWe used to get regular visits from the Jehovah's Witnesses as they have a church not far from us. We would tell them not to call again which usually worked until there was a change of regime or something at that church. Then we'd get visited again. We have not had them come for years now. We think it's "No Trespassing" sign we put on the porch they used. Voila! No more visits.
ReplyDeleteI opted out of organized religion because i was afraid it would diminish my spirituality.
ReplyDeleteWhich is kind of why I have always been somewhat less tolerant of Mormons, the Jehovah's Witnesses, and Evangelicals. Anybody who comes to my door to tell me their version of a "truth"....
ReplyDeleteHow do you think the early christian church started?
Ever hear of the original apostles and their work after Christ died?
It shouldn't be necessary for a person of faith to "convert" others actively.
ReplyDeleteIf their "faith" is better than everyone else's, their own selves, the way they live from moment to moment, would be the best sales pitch they could have.
It's like a joke.
If I have explain to you why my faith is better than yours then the "joke" is a total fail as a joke.
If I am imbued with the peace that passes understading, I don't need to say a thing, because you will be asking me how I do that.
I am a Christian. I do not however believe that anyone should try to push their beliefs off on someone else. If ask I will always tell people what I believe. If you push people you just turn them off. I do not believe that Sarah, Perry and Cain are Christian. They claim to be for political gain.
ReplyDeleteMormonism is a total cult, and I know of where I speak. I was born into the Church of England, but my mother married an American Mormon, 20-years her senior, when I was six-years-old and we moved to the States. It was like winning the lottery for a kid from the coal-mining town of Newcastle. My new uncle was a Utah State Senator and had a ranch with horses and a tennis court, and my new Stepfather's great-great-grandfather was on a big monument in Salt Lake City. So I was thrown feet-first into the cult. My mother started wearing magic underwear and our entire life revolved around "the church." I was even baptized for dead people (arrrgh!) when I was just 12-years-old. I attended Primary, Seminary, Fast and Testimony Meeting and the whole cultish bit. Luckily, I grew up mostly in Southern California, so I had other influences outside of Mormonism. When I turned 15, I told my mother that this was "her religion, not mine," and that I would not be attending their church anymore. That night, lightning hit the door of the church and shattered the glass doors. My superstitious mother immediately blamed me for it. Ha! I've spent a lifetime studying "The Ageless Wisdom," plus all the major world religions, and have even taught Cabalah -- and I'm committed to being "Spiritual," NOT religious. "One Planet, One Life, One Human Family," as I see it. And, I'm with you, Gryphen! I don't like people coming to my door and telling me about what I SHOULD believe! I have a stock answer: "Thank you for coming, but I don't limit myself to Christianity. Have a nice day!" They always leave . . .
ReplyDeleteAs a former drinker and forner church member I like this quote by Friedrich Nietzsche, "Two great European narcotics, alcohol and Christianity."
ReplyDeleteI don't have a problem with Jehovah's Witnesses. I find them generally smiling, polite, and more than ready to leave if I just take their literature, smile back, and say "thank you." They have always struck me as nice people who genuinely want to "help" others by "saving" them. Thank you, now go away.
ReplyDeleteEvangelicals, on the other hand, are pushy, judgmental, and fiercely determined in their supercilious condescension.
As for Mormons--don't get me started. I lived in Idaho, and they are rightly infamous for only caring about other Mormons, getting a foothold in institutions/companies and then packing them with their coreligionists, and being cutthroat and utterly immoral in their advancement of what they see as their cause.
Have you ever read The Book of Mormon? How anyone can believe that nonsense, even if raised in the church, is beyond me. But how could anyone CONVERT?
Just say: "I do believe in the existence of a God, but I'm absolutely convinced God has nothing to do with the bible."
ReplyDeleteThey won't be "prepared" with any glib answer and they'll have no further reason to ply you with their various pamphlets.
My friends at the "Recovery from Mormonism" board are delighted that Mittens is in the running.
ReplyDeleteThey are hoping that the increased scrutiny of "the church" will help educate the members learn the true history of Mormonism, not the whitewashed, heavily edited version they are taught in Sunday School.
I see church leadership has chosen to spend a lot of money on the "and I am Mormon" ads, a desperate attempt to be "cool" or at least "normal". Hahaha!
Individual members are a mixed bag, like any other religion - it's the "Book of Mormon" and doctrine that is a load of hogwash.
I once had some very persistent Jehovah's Witnesses coming to my door.
ReplyDeleteThe first contact was pleasant enough, but I made the mistake of saying it would be okay to come back (I just wanted to get rid of them without being rude...I'm Canadian, after all).
The next visit was by a much more aggressive couple who carried a briefcase full of literature and logical jiu-jitsu to get me to accept their books ("how do you know you won't like it if you haven't read it?")
I remembered a book I had been pressured into buying by the Hare Krishna group years before, and offered to accept the JW literature only as an exchange of books (that's only fair, isn't it?).
The JW recruiter refused over and over to take the Hare Krishna book in exchange, but finally relented when he saw I was not to be budged from my "fair exchange" principle. He held out his open briefcase and I dropped my book in.
He refused to touch the Hare Krisna book with his bare hands, and never darkened my doorway again.
I had a recently converted Jehovah's Witness at my office. I asked her to get some birthday cards next time she ran errands so we could have them on hand - she refused because her religion didn't celebrate birthdays or holidays. Fair enough - but she took the Christmas bonus I gave her a month later. Ha!
ReplyDeleteWhat pisses me off about the unwanted visitors is that if you aren't a member of their church, they assume you aren't Christian. Narcissist much? Last time one approached me with her little pamphlet, I was armed with one of my one for a charity in which I was involved. After she was finished talking, I made her stand and listen to my speech and take my pamphlet. That was the last time it ever happened.
ReplyDeleteMy Christian church does Christian-like things, such as housing the homeless and clothing the cold. We have also dedicated time to learning about other faiths and have invited the Buddhist, American Indians, Mormon and Hare Krishna(!) in to educate our congregation. Pretty sweet and it gives me all kinds of peaceful high.
ReplyDeleteTry living in Sandy, Utah. Every other week we'd get invites from the ward for a picnic or some churchy gathering. Finally I asked if we could bring a keg and they left us alone. Strange thing is, on our little cul de sac of 5 homes, 4 families were not mormon. I think my daughter was one of 3 our of 27 in her class not mormon (and the horror stories I could tell you about how vile their children are to outsiders... your blood would turn to ice). They can all go hang themselves from moroni's sword in temple square for all I care about them.
ReplyDeleteI answered the door one Saturday morning to a Jehova's Witness, wearing just a bathrobe and some serious bed-head. I was tempted to tell him in great detail what he was interrupting, but he had a 5-year-old human shield with him.
ReplyDeleteMy response would always throw the Evangelicals off their game:
ReplyDelete¨Why do you ask? Do I look like a heathen to you?¨
No matter what their explanation would be, I would interrupt and insist on being deeply offended. I gave them no choice but to stop ¨insulting¨ me.
Iḿ Asian, btw.
I agree with you. I do not care what beliefs people have, just do not try to sway me to their way of thinking. Another point, any religion that tells their flock how to vote should be taxed. A friend that I thought was intelligent actually said to me "Obama wants to KILL babies" The priest had told them that, were they not intelligent enough to sift through, and find the truth? I did not even respond, how can someone like that be told any differently? Later I thought I should have said "Well, the POPE shields priests who molest young children. How Christian is THAT??"
ReplyDeleteO/T: posted on Thursday 13th October 2011...
ReplyDelete"Marathon runner admits cheating - by catching the bus"
http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsround/15286189
I generally feel pretty much that live and let live works for me, but the Mormons and government are another story. They have a (publicly unstated) goal to be in charge of North America, which they see as "theirs" due to various of their plagiarisms-further-muddled. Those of us old enough to have been through the 50s can reach back in our memories to their last major attempt to be in charge of their own private "promised land" (where, they believe, the lost tribe of Israelites, the "Lamanites", came/were sent) and I don't like the idea any more now than I did then....I prefer a non-religious tone in my government, please and thank you.
ReplyDeleteRelated reading: "Losing a Lost Tribe: Native Americans, DNA, and the Mormon Church"; also interesting should be "Can Mitt Romney Serve Two Masters?: The Mormon Church versus the Office of The Presidency of The United States of America" which I have ordered but not yet received. Free is "American Government and The Mormon Conspiracy" by Charles L. Wood, Ph.D. Emeritus Professor at the University of Akron. There is much more if one is interested.
So while I begrudge no one their own religious/spiritual bent I'm not interested in being 'ruled' by any of them, either.
Hate Jehovah's Witnesses all you want BUT, at least they don't get involved in politics. Not here, or anywhere else in the World.
ReplyDeleteThey also don't preach hate towards others, or condemn them to Hell if you don't listen to their message.
I am an apathiest. An apathetic athiest. I don't know what happens when i die, and I don't care. Bill Maher said that.
ReplyDeleteI agree.
I subscribe to no religion.
I grew up in a baptist church. When i went to college I studied religion and history. How Christians can believe what they do is far beyond me.
As far as mormon being a cult? They are all cults to me.
Anyone who forces someone to do something based on sheer "belief" is a cult.
Anytime someone comes to my door trying to sell their religion, I point to the NO SOLICITATION sign by the door. This offends many as they don't feel as if they are selling anything. Obviously, they don't stop to think how offended I might be by their presumption of "owning the truth." I like to think of it as a "shared experience."
ReplyDeleteI am an Australian, descended from convict stock. Married a Torres Strait Islander one of the two indigenous races of Australia.
ReplyDeleteLiving in Queensland suburbia one day (25 years ago) had a knock at the door from the Jehovah Witnesses. They wanted to know if black people lived in this house.
I asked them what skin colour had to do with religion. No response to the question. Ordered them off my property and rang the local JW church to tell them if they returned I would file a complaint under the racial discrimination act. It is a pretty strong act in Australia.
Did not come near me until a few months after my husband had died in 2008.
(I think they read the births, deaths and marriages announcements in the paper}
Told me they had been ordered off this property many years ago,
Same question – Are there black people living here.
This time I threatened to turn the hose on them.
Told them they had convinced me religion was nothing more than a cult.
Not seen them again.
Faith is a wonderful thing, but once you get past living the Golden Rule, and "all you need is love", organized religion is a just tool to control the gullible and legislate whatever f%$ked up flavor morality they are pushing.
ReplyDeleteI've got to stick up for the Jehovah's Witnesses just a little bit here. One or two very important supreme court decisions were the result of Jehovah's Witnesses bringing suit. Things like the right not to be penalized for not saluting the flag. Also some prayer in school stuff I think. It's been a while so I can't remember too many details, but I always give the JW's just a little bit of karma credit for this. Makes it easier to be nice to them when the knock on my door.
ReplyDeleteI am very saddened by this thread. As a regular visitor to this blog I am drawn by the tolerance of your life Griff. I have gone as far as to provide you with an unknown picture in your pursuit of the truth with Sarah Palin and her "pregnancy".
ReplyDeleteRight out the gate your visitors are showing an intolerance that is surprising. I can not speak about the Mormons but I can say that the Jehovah's Witnesses should hold no threat to your way of life or thinking. If anything I would think you would enjoy a healthy, peaceful debate.
You will never see them at a rally to take somebodies rights away. You will never see them vote to strip away somebodies freedom. You will never see any political propaganda stuffed into their pews. You will never see them fund bills that blazingly perpetuates hate. They peacefully do what they believe they are commanded to do, which is preach. Not one single JW has ever sought after a political post because they know that the commingling of church and state is the personification of hypocrisy and something Jesus would never be a part of.
Bye the way, I have heard 100's if not 1000's of stories of people answering the door naked etc. it is an urban myth told for many, many years. A story that pops up in every thread about JW's. Trust me, if Nazi Germany could not stop the preaching work of Jehovah's Witnesses by exterminating them in the concentration camps I hardly think that a little bit of middle age male flesh would be able to do it. But if people want to tell these stories all the power to them, it makes you question what type of person are they when they answer the door naked because they do not like the person on the other side? 9 times out of 10 if it is a JW it would be a women and/or a child, is that the type of lack of respect you were raised with? What if you were sick and tired of the girl scouts coming to your house selling their cookies? Would you answer the door the same way? If you are not interested then just say it, you will not get a knock on your door for at least a couple of months usually. Simple human decency.
~Nora
As a person of faith, I appreciate the earnestness and concern for my well-being of Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, Southern Baptists and others coming to my door.
ReplyDeleteI don't mind carrying on a constructive dialogue with them, as long as they are willing to accept my right to choose and live my own faith as they do theirs.
Jefferson, Madison, and the other founding fathers had it right - no religion should be established in our laws. To do so would be to risk having one established that even those proposing such a thing wouldn't want to live with. In any case, faith being an individual belief between the holder and whatever powers they choose to believe in cannot be legislated any more effectively than can personal morality.
What I want is a President that is getting the job done, regardless of what personal faith he or she professes.
My favorite personal experience with JW's happened when my husband and I were camped in the woods in our little travel trailer while he did some field work. We were up a dirt road an hour from the nearest town. One day, two JW's showed up with pamphlets for me. In the woods. Nobody for miles around. The pamphlets were anti-evolution so I told them my husband wasn't there because he was studying fossils down the hill a ways (he was actually studying volcanic rocks, but I needed some payback for them finding me in the woods).
ReplyDeletewhenever these religious fanatics come to my door i invite them in to change my diaper. they never take me up on it.
ReplyDeleteAgreed with Maher's points, but think he could have gone farther with the absurdity of 'mainstream' Christian beliefs, too. Mormonism is a religion founded by a con man and Christianity is a religion founded by a group of politicians (so a group of con men). Just because we have court records on Joseph Smith, but not on the members of the Nicene Council doesn't change the fact that Christianity was a colossally successful con--probably the most successful in the history of humanity.
ReplyDeleteI'll buck the 'me too' trend on being proud of blistering the ears off of door-to-door evangelizers. They are brainwashed individuals who may be deluded, but they are (usually) sincere. Never have understood people being proud of being abusive to the mentally challenged, which you could certainly make a case that these folks are. Are they annoying? You bet. Are you a better person for having been an ass to them? Probably not.
You know, I'm sure you, as well as 99% of the people who would listen to a word that Bill Maher has to say, have ever even studied Joseph Smith more than a quick google search to get the "facts." Joseph Smith made some poor financial decisions. He did not con anyone. Furthermore, he was run out of town as his followers were raped, robbed, and murdered in scores by people who hated that they were winning converts and the result was fewer parishioners and tithers for them. They were also hated because they stood against slavery and slave owners were afraid for their livelihood. I have personally studied many religions, including the religion of atheism and agnosticism, and I have determined that the secrets of life and solutions to the mysteries of the universe can be found through the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. If you had found such a treasure, wouldn't you desire to share it with others?
DeleteI wish we would finally end tax exemption for churches. Enough is enough.
ReplyDeleteI pretty much agree with you Mr. G except on the magical thinking. Every Christmas there is always one tiny small moment before I go to sleep that I think Santa Claus might come.
ReplyDeleteI had a mormon student of mine and his mother at my house one day and the doorbell rang. The Jehovah's witnesses offered me their pamphlet and I politely said "Thank you," closed the door and without looking at it, dropped it in the trash. The student said "You just threw it away?" I said, "I'm not interested in superstition." They had their mouths hanging open for a while, but I thought it was a good education for them to see the other side of their proselytizing.
ReplyDeleteSarah Palin is no longer in the list of On Air Personalities on Fox - did they fire her?
ReplyDeleteWhen Jehovah Witness 'pimps' show up at doors of my family members, what they see behind us on the wall are framed awards from the Red Cross.
ReplyDeleteAs a joke many years back, for Christmas a family member gave each of us framed awards to hang 'In recognition of 100 blood donations....' in words large enough for them to read so that to the many, we pretty much have to say nothing to them - they turn and scurry away.
When they show up with their kids, reminds me of Palin pimping her's.
If they find the need to still 'work their pimping trade', then many in the family have played the reverse by talking about the lives we've saved by giving and their receiving of our blood. Toss in that one of our kids/grandkids just received a transfusion this past week and their doing wonderful!!
It doesn't take long before they get their kids off the property. Guess they're afraid they'll 'catch something'!!!
Many in our family do donate blood and have done so for years, so the 'awards' aren't total lies - they're just fudged numbers!! Some truthfully have done over the 100.
I've got a great sticker (from NorthernSun.com) on my front door. It shows a man and woman - holding a briefcase and a bible, with the big red "NO" slash across them. No Proselytizing, in effect.
ReplyDeleteIt keeps some of the more intelligent ones from knocking, but of course, many of them still feel the need to leave their religious propaganda stuck in my door jamb. I guess they're so brainwashed they can't even comprehend the idea of free will, and therefore don't respect mine.
My former coworker who is a Jehovah (and the most evil, nasty woman I've ever know, btw) only had to see it once, which made it worth it in itself.
I believe everyone has the right to their own system of beliefs,as long as they do not try to use it to control or harm others,or try to inflict their belief on me.Heck,as a child I was the the one who was always chosen to lead groups,and to do readings,even to older groups,because I had such a huge knowledge of the bible.Little did they know I was just a voracious reader who happened to have read it cover to cover,as a novel.
ReplyDeleteI think the next few months are going to be interesting. Because on the one hand, I'm thinking...there's going to be a Christian Conservative freakout about Mormonism...and on the other, there's going to be a freakout about a black candidate, I think, and a candidate with a tax plan that could not possibly win in November 2012. But Bachmann's already been dismissed and Rick Perry has proven himself to be outclassed by a troop of clowns. So what are GOP voters going to do? Are they going to flock to Ron Paul???? SANTORUM?????
ReplyDelete-- Oak Park.
When a super nice Mormon family moves to South Park, naturally the boys' first instinct is to kick the new kid's ass. But when Stan and his dad become intrigued with the Harrison's overwhelming happiness and the story of Joseph Smith, the Marsh family decides to convert to Mormonism. The conversion, however, doesn't quite take.
ReplyDeleteSouth Park ~ Season 7, Episode 12
I agree with the point that whatever you believe in (religion, politics, gender choices) is your own business and I support your right to make those choices. What I ask, however, is that you allow me to make the same choices for myself. The most important part of that is to keep your choices to yourself - don't try to "convert" me to anything. I will grant the same courtesy to you.
ReplyDeleteFor ANON who lives in Sandy, UT., my sincere sympathy. I was a senior exec at a company that contracted with a firm in Sandy to produce a product (vague description on purpose). They were easily the most dishonest group of people I ever met. They had no moral compass and couldn't be trusted. They didn't try to convert us to Mormonism, but they certainly weren't the poster children to draw me towards it either. I am truly sorry that I had any contact with them.
I agree about Jehovah's Witness'.So have my dogs.In my lifetime I have had a succesion of dogs who were the most mild mannered,gentle creatures,unless their family was threatened.from hounds to Schnauzers to Chihuahuas,they all saw the J W people as threats.One Schnauzer jumped off of my porch onto the hood of their car.A hound pulled a briefcase out of their hands.My current Chihuahua who plays with tiny babies and is the sweetes dog on earth,chased a J W to her car.They don't stop here anymore.
ReplyDeleteHow do you think the early christian church started?
ReplyDeleteEver hear of the original apostles and their work after Christ died?
10:16 AM
Sure,there are plenty of stories in the Bible about it.What you seem to not know is that the Bible was written long after the events described in it.It was written by men who wanted to extend and grow the power of the religion to which they belonged.No one knows if this actually happened,and most likely it is a bunch of half truths,made up stories and myths,gathered together and retold with a political/religious slant supplied by the persons writing them down.Centuries later men gathered together and chose which stories and collections of stories to include in their grand manuscript.The threw out all of the ones written by women,but some of those were saved and hidden away instead of burnt as ordered.
Nora, I am like Gryph. I don't give a flying fig what anyone believes but keep it to yourself. If I ask, go ahead and tell me what you believe but I don't want people knocking on my door bothering me. I don't want to spend my heard earned free time talking about something I could care less about.
ReplyDeleteI am sick to death of so many churches right now telling their parishioners or whatever you want to call them who to vote for, etc. I think that if they want to do this then they should pay taxes like everyone else.
It is my opinion and we are all allowed to have one. Just because we all have crazy SP in common it doesn't mean that we are the same people.
Again, I don't care what you believe in or who you believe in. Keep it to yourself. If you are a church, temple or whatever if you want to talk politics then sorry but you pay taxes.
The "Angel Moroni" graces Mormon temples. Funny, the name "Moroni" spells "Moron, I," as in all the people who believe in Mormonism.
ReplyDeleteSorry OT -
ReplyDeleteUncle Gryphen...
Is Brad S. our Fred????
His first blog post is here:
http://scharlottsbeacon.blogspot.com/2011/10/welcome-to-brads-beacon-hi-all.html
SunnyVee
We had a woman in Bemiji MN who when asked if she had found Jesus yet exclaimed "Oh my god! Is he lost again!!!" The stopped asking her.
ReplyDeleteNora
ReplyDeleteIf someone wants to habitually disturb people in their own peaceful enjoyment of their own home and property continually,over and over again,despite being asked to stop,they will earn the dislike and disdain of the people whose wishes they so disrespect.As someone who spent years working the "graveyard" shift,I kept signs that said do not disturb,day sleeper on my door.They did not care.They woke me up every week.For years.Sometimes religion is worn as a badge."I am better than you""I know more than you""I am a chosen one" Fine,enjoy it.but keep it off of my porch.
I just don't see how any of this has anything to do with Romney. He's Mormom, but he doesn't use that to promote his political agenda.
ReplyDeleteWe all know he panders all over the place & has to try to placate the social conservatives.
I've seen no evidence that it's driven by his Mormom faith, as if it was, he never would have been pro-choice, pro-gay rights in the first place.
It just seems like something people use to attack Romney on, and it's unfair, because like I said, he isn't even a religious zealot.
Romney, I think, has the most potential out of any of the Republican candidates, so I want him weakened, but not in this way.
There's sooooo much wrong with Romney that needs to be brought to light. His religion isn't one of those things.
Actually, I absolutely agree, though I don't curse at them. I just tell them I'm a witch, and happy to be so, and politely ask them not to come back. They tend to not reappear.
ReplyDeleteThing is, I was born into one of those religions that sends out "witnessing" teams. As a child, I was coerced into taking part in those door-to-door visits. I hated it--I felt that the religion to which I belonged did not have a lock on truth, nor did it make better, happier, people. However, since the rest of my family believed deeply, I found myself out "witnessing" regularly. A lot of my literature found its way into vacant lots and alleys.
The Book of Mormon is poorly written, and reads like a flat out comedy. An angel called Moroni?
ReplyDeleteWhen my sister was in LA trying to be a movie star, she said most of the gay men actors she met were Mormon and that they were exiled from their families for being gay.
When I went to Salt Lake City on business and was sent to the fanciest restaurant in town, I found that since I had wine, I would be sequestered to the far back room. However, all the waitresses were dressed as serving wenches and flashed tons of bosom. So explain that? Drinking is bad, but lots of cleavage is good?
And finally, one man I worked with in Salt Lake City was a Mormon Scientologist. Now how can that be? But it was. . .
IMO, Mormonism was made up so men could have as many wives as they wanted, and then it became a cult. The last few years they've PR'd the whole thing to be a kind of Christian lite, but hang out with some Mormons and you'll find out pretty quick what they think of you.
1,000% with you on this one too Gryphen. How presumptuous of the various door-to-door religion peddlers. Heck, I couldn't get my kids to sell GirlScout cookies much less try to convince them to spend their free time drumming up converts for the temple. Not that I'd ever try mind you.
ReplyDeleteThese folks are far more desperate to secure their own ticket to heaven rather than those they disturb. We put a polite 'No religious soliciting' sign on the door and it helped a little. The JW teams mostly ignored the sign but the Mormon missionaries usually got the message. As I got older, I got less polite about it. lol
My neighbor has a sticker on his truck that says "Dear God... please protect me from your followers".
ReplyDeleteI'm looking for this one:
"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ". -Gandhi
I was doomed for organized religion from the get go. Abusive, alcoholic dad and strong willed mother. The priest of our catholic church advised against divorce. This was the same holy man that whacked the knuckles of my sweet, dyslexic brother for not answering his questions quickly enough.
I had an experience in 1st grade were a bus belonging to some church came through the neighborhood picking up kids for assimilation. They approached us kids promising ice cream and games. We ran home to get permission thinking this was a great adventure. I had a bad feeling the whole day and felt completely ripped off by the tiny frozen dessert thing we got at the end of the day. I never asked to go on that bus again, and I was completely freaked out when it showed up at our new house after we moved to a few months later. There's this thing called congruency that hangs me up every time
I have a very strong faith in God and consider myself spiritual. I like Hammer and a Feather's comment, hope you don't mind if I plagiarize.
There was a knock on the door this morning.
ReplyDeleteI opened it to find a young man standing there who said: "I'm a Jehovah's Witness."
I said "Come in and sit down, what do you want to talk about?"
He said, "Beats the hell out of me, I've never gotten this far before."
Ugh, ugh, ugh. I want an atheist President. I'm sick of all these people that use faith because thinking is too difficult for them.
ReplyDeleteI don't want "constructive dialogue" or "intelligent debate" on my front porch, thank you. I have other, more appropriate venues, which I choose, for those activities.
ReplyDeleteMy front porch is my space. To me, knocking on my door and believing I want you--or should permit you-- to tell me about a product, whether it's a household cleaner or a religion, is rude and arrogant.
I am assaulted enough with marketing messages in public spaces. Don't bring them into my private space. How self righteous is it to believe that you have the right to interrupt my work, disrupt my privacy and waste my time to try to sell me something!
No, I don't think "Fuck off" is rude when you are insinuating yourself into my life where you are not invited and not wanted.
Anon - Nora - 11:29
ReplyDelete"If you are not interested then just say it, you will not get a knock on your door for at least a couple of months usually. Simple human decency."
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In the past I'll say at least two decades, I've yet to see/hear them accept from the homeowner/door answerer 'I'm not interested'. They just keep pumping it.
When I say I'm not interested, it's no business of theirs to ask WHY, etc., continuing to try to engage. 'I'm not interested' is a conversation ender for which they have no grasp or respect to understand. So when you make reference to 'human decency' - you neglect to realize that's a two way street for which they don't practice.
As to your reference that they won't come to your door 'for a couple of months'. If I'm not interested in say Feb., I'm not interested in May. Their continued return is an invasion of my privacy as far as I'm concerned.
I'm not interested in a 'debate' on religion PERIOD. You reference it as a 'healthy, peaceful debate' - I don't believe that for one second. A debate at my door with strangers about religion - won't happen. And FYI - in my area it is always a male with either another male or a female and the majority of times a kid dragged along too.
If it is necessary for people to ply their religion by walking the streets, knocking on doors - I call that the equivalent of 'pimping religion'.
I think if you think you know something wonderful, something that would make the lives of those you love wonderful, somethign that would make the lives of those you don't love wonderful, then it's okay to share what it is - even if it's religion.
ReplyDeleteThat's very different that supporting "sharing" that is coercive, manipulative, etc. THe sharing must be from the heart, not the head and must respect the other person's autonomy and where that person is at the time (After all, the God they profess to prosyltize for does).
I don't really care if politicians identify themselves with a religion. It's irrelevant to me. What I care about is their record on the issues that politicians have to deal with - and a position is not that I will pray to God for an Answer, or faith that God is on our side. I want concrete answers - I want to know what God is telling them BEFORE I vote for them.
God/Christianity teaches that all sin, and all may fall away. I'm pretty sure that applies to politicians too. I have no assurance that the politician will vote the way God wants when the time comes. Maybe sin will creep in. What I can do is predict how (s)he'll behave based on prior behavior.
AT least, that's what I think today. I'll have to do more thinking on it.
Lucy
As a college student with the unfortunate maiden name of Young, I often had missionaries at my door. My father was black jacked out before I was born and until I was out on my own they left me alone. Not sure how they got my information but it was an all out press to bring me into the cult. In order for them to finally LEAVE ME ALONE for good, I opened the door naked with a bottle of tequila in one hand and a bong in the other.. (borrowed the bong from another neighbor)
ReplyDeleteSigning anonymous... this time
booby bunny.
Nora @11:29
ReplyDeleteIt isn't intolerance to other religions that is being expressed here; it is offense at others assuming you need to be saved and that you aren't a Christian. It is also the constant invasion of ones privacy that is upsetting everyone. As for the Mormon remarks, eh some are great people and some not so much just like any other religion.
And Nora,
ReplyDeleteThat's what a peep hole is for... I knew I was opening the door to two young men around my own age.
It did work when EVERYTHING from not answering the door at all while making it obvious that I was home to politely asking them to leave me alone to asking not so politely to leave me the f--- alone did not work.
Never had a problem with the JW groups, sure they came, left pamphlets on the door, etc. but the missionaries were RELENTLESS in their pursuit..If I hadn't been a rebellious party girl (yeah.. was on the sarah palin college plan) I would have called the police and pressed harassment charges against them.
Anonymous again but often post under my real name
Boobybunny
My brother-in-law sent me a picture 'defending' the rights of Muslims to pray in the streets in Venice--which are, of course, water. When they bend down to pray, their heads are under water. Ha ha ha. Very funny. This grown, educated man runs a fair-sized corporation and he shared this with all of his professional friends, secure in the knowledge that Muslims are so universally despised, his juvenile and cruel joke would be acceptable.
ReplyDeleteThat's what I think of reading this thread. Everyone trying to impress others with the clever ways they have bullied unwanted visitors to their homes, secure in the knowledge that Mormons, Witnesses and others are so universally despised they will be viewed as heroes--much like schoolyard bullies try to impress their friends with their obnoxious behavior. It is beyond disappointing. The whole point of freedom of religion and individual rights is to protect even hated minorities from the 'tyranny of the majority.' Certainly the right doesn't understand this. If the left is also willing to pile on unpopular groups based on their beliefs, we are truly doomed.
Hey Nora! Sounds like you might just be a JW there sweetie pie, the way you are taking umbrage by people expressing their feelings about religion, which is EXACTLY what Gryphen invited.
ReplyDeleteSo you come along and make people wrong for saying how they feel by calling them 'intolerant'. Because they don't like being harrassed in their own home, by people who believe that it is acceptable to ring their doorbell and interrupt whatever they are doing to be preached to because that's what they are told to do?
They are told to invade people's privacy and thrust religious propaganda in their faces, often with a child present to shield them from the negative responses they have gotten. And this is in the name of WHAT? Who the hell told them to 'preach'? Who the hell said that they were the end all or be all for spiritual direction?
What makes it OK for anyone to come to my door and foist their beliefs on me, I didn't invite them, I wasn't looking to be disturbed from whatever I was in the middle of when I answered the door. And good lord, to compare the Girl Scouts selling cookies to religious fanatics showing up uninvited at one's door, with a condescending judgemental 'we're better than you' attitude . It's damn rude and unwelcome.
And so what if people answer the door naked. It's THEIR home and they are being intruded upon. That's the chance the JWers will have to take when they 'preach', now isn't it. For you to call it 'simple human decency', my ass. Simple human decency would be to NOT invade people's homes and inflict their beliefs on the homeowner.
Yeah, I'll bet you are one of those.
And big fucking deal if you are a regular reader and gave Gryphen a photo, does that make you in charge of his blog. I'm sure there are thousands of people that have provided Gryphen with information, images, article and insights that have helped him along with way, what makes you so goddamn special?
Take your ridiculous outrage and peddle it someplace else.
Nora @11:29,
ReplyDeleteThe fact that little children are dragged around door to door by JW zealots makes it even worse. I opened my door once to find two adult females and a young boy who couldn't have been older than four or five. He was dressed in a three-piece polyester suit (i.e., including the vest), dress shoes, and a tie. This was in the middle of summer in Fort Lauderdale; it was 95 degrees out and at least 88% humidity.
That's child abuse. I seriously considered calling the abuse hotline, and I probably should have. Next time I will.
It's also not acceptable to return in a couple months once you've been told that the occupant is not interested. That's even more illogical than thinking you have the right to proselytize on someone else's property, uninvited, in the first place. Sheesh.
Anonymous Nora @11:29 AM
ReplyDelete"... but I can say that the Jehovah's Witnesses should hold no threat to your way of life or thinking. If anything I would think you would enjoy a healthy, peaceful debate".
Nora, are you really this dense? Why would anyone want to enjoy a healthy peaceful debate about their religion, or lack there of, with the Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, Baptists, Catholics, flying spaghetti monsters or any other follow of any religion?
What's to debate? A person's religion is no one's business, certainly not the JWs. I'm sure that someone who is pulled out of a deep sleep on a Sunday morning is is not chomping at the bit to debate his/her religion.
"If you are not interested then just say it, you will not get a knock on your door for at least a couple of months usually".
What are you Nora, a JW with a guilt complex? Saying that one is not interested indicates that one is NOT INTERESTED AND DO NOT COME BACK.
PERIOD.
This should be the end of it.
Simple human decency.
I studied Mormonism back in the 80's because I knew nothing about their beliefs, and living in Montana, became aware there were a great many of them living in the same city. What I learned just blew me away. That people actually buy into this religion is beyond me. The Mormon Fundamentalists are living more a true Mormonism than their more contemporary counterparts. The church changes on a whim of The Prophet, and is usually tied to political/social mores of the time. I found it pretty fascinating, actually, to go from the time of Joseph Smith up to modern day. Some really crazy stuff there.
ReplyDeleteFSM/Pastafarian in the house! Posting anonymously because I am hated...
ReplyDeleteI also consider myself spiritual, I do not think I have to go to a building to listen to someone speak of the way I should live my life.
ReplyDeleteI don't like being preached at and never have. I don't care what my President is as long as he/she has good moral conduct and is able to handle the job of making decisions and keeping the seperation of the two.
My grandfather was not a nice man but he was my grandfather. My grandparents house set back away from the road (dirt) and there was only one way to access the porch.
He would call us all outside to watch him in action. The JW's had to walk through these huge cedar trees and magnolias to get to the house. He would let them close enough to the porch then start chunking rocks at them. Do you know they still came back time after time, even though they knew who was going to throw rocks at them? I never understood that.
If you come to my house and I am not interested I expect you to abide by my decision. I guess I find organized religion full of hypocrites and sinners. I don't think it is just to Mormon's but they are all cults. You have one person telling you how to live your life and to me that is just wrong.
Preaching on television is nothing but a scam, begging people, most not able to afford it to give them their hard earned money. Religion in politics has no place and if they do they need to lose their non profit status. For it is no longer a religion it is a business.
But I see absolutely no reason to ridicule any ones religion. It serves absolutely no reason, if that is all you have against them you don't have anything. Judge people on who they are and how they act not on appearance.
I try to be tolerant of religious people...except for the ones who use a phony interpretation of their faith to push a political agenda...IE Sarah Palin, Rick Santorum, etc...But...I...really dislike mormons. It's a cult, I'm sorry but it is....it's founding mimics the founding of Scientology, imo...Joseph Smith was a creep and a grifter, a perv who slept with young girls and a sexist pig. The worst thing is that they're all so nice...that you can't really dislike the actual Mormons...even though they believe in something that's totally bonkers. I actually fear them, too. Like, don't you find it interesting that we had Glenn Beck and now there are TWO presidential candidates who are Mormon????
ReplyDeleteI know I sound like a kooky protestant circa 1959 but...who exactly will be pulling the strings if Romney or Huntsman becomes president???
Plus, the other thing about Mormons...what's with all the conversion by proxy? Including the president's dead mom? It's C-R-E-E-P-Y...
ReplyDeleteHere is an overview of JW cases that went to the Supreme Court. As annoying as you may think they are, they are willing to argue their freedom of religion all the way to the Supreme Court. Because they led the way with the right to not say the Pledge of Allegiance, I only had to put up with a couple of badly behaving teachers, rather than being expelled from high school.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.pbs.org/independentlens/knocking/supremecourt.html
Anon at 11:17,
ReplyDeleteI think you might be confusing Witnesses with Mormons. Mormons actually had a policy of discrimination against blacks until the 1970s and even after the policy was abolished, the practice continued.
Witnesses, on the other hand, have very clear rules on racial discrimination--it is grounds for disfellowshipment from the church, in fact--that have been in place since they were founded in the 1880s. Rules can't change personal biases, of course, but since disfellowshipping amounts to living death in this community, it is unlikely a witness would risk expulsion by publicly demonstrating a forbidden activity.
There are plenty of real reasons to question the practices of Witnesses, but racial prejudice is not one of them. Here is a scholarly reference related to the racial policies of the Witnesses (paragraph 2): http://www.unc.edu/~elliott/aar_dc.html
My father used to answer the door to the Mormons and Jo Hoe's in his white long johns with his hand over the crotch (for modesty, he even kept the trap door shut..thank dog)...I don't know what they imagined he was going to do but they ALWAYS ...RAN ....away...and he didn't have to say a word!
ReplyDeleteThey used to come only on Sundays in our neighbourhood...in the 1960's...the 3 of us kids, 2 dogs and mother used stay quite (I used to peek through the front room curtains) until he answered the door, then literally roll on the floor laughing.
Only one JoHoe was satisfied, claiming to his companions that, that the Lord had brought him to the door of a devil as some kind of test...I guess he thought he passed.
In Canada they are restricted to one visit per year if you inform them not to come back
I have had to not only tell them they had just made their annual visit, but tell them that I was informing the police of they day and time as well...it takes allot to keep them away sometimes!
I have two lovely Jehovah's Witness ladies who stop by regularly. I now invite them in and we chat a few minutes while they cool off from the heat. They know I have a church, I take they're booklet and they leave.
ReplyDeleteThey're just people. I see no reason to be rude.
I'd vote for a mormon Romney for Commander in Chief as soon as his five Mormon sons join the military.
ReplyDeletePOGO,
our hubbies must be "brothers from another mother" since mine did the same thing to someone coming to preach at our home years ago :)
I also called the police since they were walking up and down the streets as their children were sweltering in a hot car.
Personally I feel an open dialogue about religion is a MUST in a free society. When i first started this blog, I actually believed it would focus more on religion than politics.
ReplyDeleteShows what I know doesn't it?
In my humble opinion anything that cannot stand up to scrutiny is not worth believing, and only trusting people with a religious faith seems primitive and odd for a species defined by their intellect.
I also have to take offense with people who say that people act in a "Christian" manner when they help others.
Isn't that simply a "human" manner?
And by labeling it "Christian" what does that say about all of the other humans who do wonderful, selfless, things yet worship as a Buddhist, or a Hindu, or simply do not have any religious faith at all?
Religion is one of the very last walls of separation that keeps us apart, and personally I hope to live long enough to see the end of organized religion, and the beginning of an increase in the understanding of what makes us so much alike, with little focus on what man-made definitions make us different.
I am from the south, actually the southeast corner of Alabama, and I have found that opening the door to the Jehovah's Witnesses or the Mormans while holding an AK47 with a 30 round clip inserted tends to discourage them. . . No all southerners are dumb
ReplyDeleteBy how many people piled on me I thought I was at C4P for a moment. It is sometimes difficult to be a lone voice but I am rather use to it. I used my real name despite the expected backlash. You can call me names and degrade me, that's fine, that's your right. Like I said I expect it from a entirely different group but not my beloved IM crowd. I was transported to a different time where I was ridiculed and bullied restlessly as a child for being a runt and being bi-racial but that is the reality sometimes of being different. Peck away.
ReplyDeleteI AM saddened by many of the statements expressed today and do believe that many were intolerant but I am only one voice. This is Griff's blog, he has every right to post whatever he likes. I make the personal choice to be here for better or worse....this was a bad day for me here but tomorrow is another day.
Being condescending, calling other people names and describing how you pick on somebody that you see "beneath you" is sad no matter what the context is. The room feels so hostile right now and I am going to give everybody their space.
I do want to address the statement from anon about a church preaching politics should not be considered tax-exempt. I couldn't agree with you more. Using a church as a shelter to push an agenda is deplorable.
As I am not a practicing JW, they are very close to my heart. I am however a human rights activist that is witnessing a mob form before my very eyes and choose to step away rather then stoke the anger from ones that I consider truly good people usually looking out for the underdog.
~Nora
We are in the Bible Belt and vanloads of people are routinely dropped off in our neighborhood to pass out flyers, and tell us about Jesus!/Jehovah!/the LDS Church!/Whoever!
ReplyDeleteI finally taped a sign by the doorbell:
NO sales~~NO religious calls
and that took care of it.
BTW, I do attend a Unitarian group in town....I love it because everyone is welcome, and no one has to "convert" or change their ideas to belong. Most of my extended family is very conservative (southern baptist or far-right evangelical), so they are sure I'm a-goin' to hell!!!
Wow that clip was unbelievably awesome!
ReplyDeleteDespite the endless whining from the religious right that those of us with brains are trying to "take their religious freedoms away", the fact is we've allowed them to take advantage of our better, more tolerant (dare I say "more Christian"?)nature.
They've lulled us into a state where WE actually feel the onus to play along that their crazy magical pretend beliefs are legitimate schools of thought and to protect them from oppression. -Even as they endlessly machinate to force their beliefs on the rest of us.
In recent years, the political right has altered the discourse and basically empowered and glorified being rude, uncompassionate, uncompromising, uncaring assholes.
I say it's time for us to follow their lead.
I say it's time that we realized tolerance is getting us nowhere and it's time we started telling them what we really think instead of continuing to play this losing game of "moral higher ground".
Like Maher said, if you hire a plumber who says he can't fix your toilet but he'll pray for the waters to recede, then the six inches of shit in your bedroom is exactly what you deserve.
Amen.
Hmmm...as a evangelical Christian I am unsure of how I feel about Mormonism. I have studied most world religions when at Cal and my faith was greatly challenged by it but ultimately made stronger. I've studied Mormonism a bunch on my own b/c I find it fascinating. Some of the beliefs truly are seem bizarre but many feel the same way about orthodox Christianity. *shrugs* Whether it is a cult or not is ultimately decided by former believers IMHO. All Mormon I have ever met/know have been the sweetest, most generous people you can imagine. There are many who would argue that it is a cult, but it is still no where near the level of $cientology.
ReplyDeleteI also find $cientology interesting and have researched it/LRH even more than Mormonism, and a close friend's father is a higher up in the church. He is directly responsible for many dirty dealings, harassment of former members, and illegal behaviors. Most Scientologists are good people being taken advantage of by the higher-ups. THAT I have no qualms saying is a cult. You really should read what the def. of a cult is instead of throwing it around so much people.
Factnet.org is a great resource and they went up against $cientology, but it looks like it's down. Ugh, I hope they weren't silenced. :(
I don't believe the people who shout the loudest about their faith are usually Christians based on the hate in their hearts. Non-American Muslims could look at the rage and bigotry prevalent in the Tea Party and believe all Americans feel the way they do. Do not judge a whole nation or religion based on the most fringe or hateful elements, IMHO.
Our family's church actually lives the New Testamant out. I am proud of my kids as they love spending Sunday afternoons making and passing out sandwhiches for the homeless in our community (many of whom attend our church.) Last time I hurt badly (I'm disabled) and was worn out tired but they begged to do it, so how could I refuse THAT?!! "NO, you can't help others b/c it is not convenient for me!" LOL, not! Our pastor taught us to make goodie bags that we ride around w/in the trunk, so if we see someone asking for $ we have food & drink to offer them. Many of our congregation have blankets in their trunk they pass out, tho we haven't had the $ to do so ourselves. We do outreach in the community by having 2x yearly neighborhood cleanup days where drainpipes get fixed and hedges cut back, houses painted, etc. We participate in school fundraisers at the school down the street. My kids have pretty high medical costs and when my husband lost his job they paid for our rent and ~1K of doc/prescription bills till he found a job. Even if we keep giving our tiny tithe every month we could never pay them back, and they still did it AS A GIFT. Our pastor is so on fire for God he jumps around on the stage talking and makes huge errors in grammar and pronunciation and he just doesn't care! I LOVE how much he cares about ALL people, not just Christians, and especially his humility. In the church my husband was raised in (Presbyterian) and in the Catholic church of my youth the priests/pastor were really held up on a pedastal. Both churches however had amazing ministries, like the homeless meal every week where college students & homeless would eat together, and my BFF helped run the footwashing/toenail trimming. As a kid I was profoundly affected by the AIDS ministry, b/c back then people w/AIDS and/or anyone gay were frequently ostracized. My church even brought people food when they were too sick to leave the house, and weren't afraid to eat w/them. And 99% were not parishoners. Our church is supportive of anything members want to do to help others. They are letting me use space and providing $ for extras for the Dress a Girl Around the World program I'm doing and immediately set up a barrel to collect the pillowcases. There are many good churchs and good people who are Christians/Muslims/Mormons/etc, our church is but one.
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteFSM/Pastafarian in the house! Posting anonymously because I am hated...
1:45 PM
How can anyone look down on a religion that meets at Italian restaurants on Friday evenings?!?!?
PS: Thank you for springing up from a need to get the order to worship out of public schools!
"Have you ever read The Book of Mormon? How anyone can believe that nonsense?"
ReplyDeleteI'm sorry but....
Have you ever read the Bible? Any of them? How can anyone believe that nonsense?
Read it from cover to cover and then tell me it's not nonsense.
I watched Huntsman try to say that it shouldn't matter what religion the President is.
What about NO religion?
(Continued)
ReplyDeleteCase in point, I became friends w/another mom when my son was in Kindergarten. I found out her husband was abusing her, and started helping her make plans to leave him. She said she wanted to but had no means. I went to my pastor & talked to him, and the church took $ to pay for a Hyatt Suite daily and food and medical till she found a more permanant place (they would also help with that.) The women in my bible study brought her & her 5 kids homecooked meals each night. I was crushed when she went back to him, but no one in my church said anything but uplifting things to me, there was no condemnation for either me or her even though our church is not super wealthy. They also paid the bills for a friend who is a disabled single mom in the church for years till she could do it herself.Our church is AMAZING.
The only bad thing I can think of is when a handful of older men in the church took a stand against the pastor & leadership and said we were sinning and going to hell for putting women in places of authority, including pastoral positions. Our pastor held a conference and allowed them their say, but refused to strip women of their authority. We were shaken, but except for a small number our church community held together and became stronger for it.
Yes, religion has been used throughout history to shed blood and commit atrocities. Its not (usually) not the religion so much as the people behind it. Institutions like religions or democracies are only as good as good as the people that comprise it. Christians can and do great good, not everyone is like Sarah Palin, so don't throw the baby out w/the bathwater, IMHO.
Once again Gryphen, you hit the nail on the head.
ReplyDeleteAppears that 'someone that shall not be named' doesn't get it.
ReplyDeleteIt appears that we're supposed to bow and allow our privacy to be invaded on an ongoing basis or we aren't 'decent humans' but when the shoe is on the other foot -- total different story - we're the bullies!
Bite me as when they show me no respect when I say 'I'm not interested' - they don't deserve respect in return. They deserve to be threatened with trespassing, door slammed on them and should their finger be there - so be it.
Wow Nora...you are good...real good! You almost had me fooled there... maybe next time eh!
ReplyDeleteReal name indeed!
MickyMusings....WTF are YOU talking about?
Shut up with your stupid lectures...you sound like those religious idiots out there...chastising and preaching...Beat it trolls!
I just don't want to be bothered. I'm not "convertible". There no way that any of these people can come to my door and sway my belief. I don't have enough time in my life to engage them and I feel sorry for them, all of them that have knocked at my door through the years.
ReplyDeleteMartha 2:19
ReplyDeleteIn Canada they are restricted to one visit per year if you inform them not to come back
------------
I emailed the above to a friend in Canada and she wrote back she had never seen written or heard that before but is extremely interested!
Do you know a link? I've done a search but my word selection doesn't bring anything up.
I used to have a sign on my door that said.
ReplyDeleteNo Soliciting of any kind, political, commercial or religious. We already have all the magazines we want and we never purchase anything at the door. We have our own beliefs and don't care to discuss them with anyone. Thanks and have a great day.
It worked very well and I never had to be rude to anyone.
I have friends who are JW and they are lovely people. They never have proselytized around me or anyone else I know. They emigrated here having suffered horrible abuse, including prison, for their religion in their home country.
>>I am however a human rights activist that is witnessing a mob form before my very eyes
ReplyDeleteNora, please...a mob? C'mon. Let's not get all dramatic or anything. Just because a number of people disagree with you now all of a sudden it's a mob and you have to run away.
And yet you were the one who PROVOKED the 'mob' by your statements which were judgemental and parental, lecturing and holier than thou.
OF COURSE you'll get a backlash from intelligent thinking people when you post garbage like that. What do you expect?
I'm sorry you have experienced hate and pain and prejudice as a child. That is unacceptable. But you continue to keep that alive by making yourself 'better than' in your statements. People resent that. And they say so in whatever way they choose to express it.
Even in the cyber world, it comes through loud and clear that you think you're better than others, that you are more decent and you diminish people in how you communicate.
A mob? Have you EVER seen a MOB? You're just being a big crybaby. I'm sorry that you're feelings are hurt, but guess what, it's a big world out here and you have to hold your own, or go running off with your tail between your legs. Which is what you have obviously decided to do. If you have something of value to offer, I'm sure everyone here will be glad to hear it, if you OWN it and don't project it on us.
So stop with the victim stuff and step up.
@1:32 "Mickey Musing"--
ReplyDelete"Unwanted visitor" is an oxymoron. These salesmen and saleswomen are not visitors, they are invaders, and yes, they are bullies..
NOt to mention 12:08, I distinctly remember one bible story (Epistle?)that said something like, if those you are witnessing/proselytizing to don't accept your message, shake the dust off your sandals and leave that town. Seems these religious pesterers have read their bibles rather selectively.
ReplyDeleteWell, I do believe in religious tolerance - but what I see people mostly saying is they are sick of the constant visits from the Mormons, the JW's, the Moonies, the Evangelicals, etc.
ReplyDeleteNo matter what you say - they have no respect for being told politely you are not interested - and continue the spiel, talking over you and trying to get into your house.
They are welcome to believe whatever they want - but they are not free to constantly disrupt people and force their way into your house.
I used to try so hard to come up with polite "No Thanks", but even when I started lying and told them I already had a church, the Catholic Church, they just wouldn't quit. After a while you do start to get angry!
Now I just say, "No Thanks and Good Luck" and close the door even as they're still talking to me.
I don't like being rude, but by golly, how else do you get the message through to them?
The longtime JW group in my community were rife with in house abuse, and many of their children were heavily involved in drugs and alcohol - including dealing. Something was really not right with that group.
When I worked for Child Protection, there was a group in Southern VT who were almost cultlike - homeschooled, isolated from the community - one of their adolescent boys, 17, was a substantiated molester of the preschool age boys who attended his mother's home daycare.
The whole group denied his crime and basically ostracized the families who brought the complaint (they were all JW families), so for them to even make a complaint was quite unusual.
There was evidence that the father had molested the (offender)kid and physically abused him, but nothing could be proven. The teenaged offender wouldn't talk and the whole group circled the wagons.
The offender was placed on probation and we wanted to place him in a treatment program. He was a very strange, socially isolated kid, even within his group.
They fought it tooth and nail, so he was allowed to stay home and get therapy in the community. The daycare was closed.
I also handled the juvenile probation cases in my office - so I had to supervise his compliance with his treatment plan as well as his behavior in the community (yeah, right!).
Supervising juvenile probationers is incredibly difficult compared to an adult offender, where the confidentiality laws are less strict. Try to keep tabs on their activities in the community when there are but a select few people you can talk to about just what that kid is up to!
Within a month - I found out this kid was helping one of the neighbors paint their house - they had two little boys. These parents, who weren't part of the JW group, had no idea he was a risk to their children.
They thought he was such a great young man who loved children - he had volunteered to babysit the little boys! This time he was placed in custody and residential treatment - despite how close he was to 18.
It was a very sad case, but the JW community's denial and minimizing the harm this kid did pretty much guaranteed therapeutic intervention would fail.
As far as confidentiality - I never disclosed to anyone about this kid's case - the parents threw the son under the bus and disclosed to the group. How awful for their son. It was truly creepy!
I'm sure most JW's are fine, but I am never comfortable with any religious group when they become isolated from the community and the homeschooling curriculum centers primarily around their bible.
In case you all missed it, the RCC has been doing a great job of insinuating religion into our lives - they want the right to deny women abortions in their hospitals - not women who are having elective abortions, but women who need an abortion for a medical reason - think ectopic pregnancy, think pre-eclampsia, think a disease or illness in which carrying a fetus to term will likely kill the woman - think even gunshot wound - in other words, they want the right to allow women to die when it can be prevented, in order to (possibly) save a fetus who will live life without a mother. They want to leave her other children motherless - probably easier pickin's for their pederast priests. Fucking bastards - I hate the RCC.
ReplyDeleteGo away, Nora. You're sounding like a pretty self-righteous little prude, too in your uber tolerance. Mob my arse. Mobs don't arise from a single private residence.
ReplyDeleteJust because you may be bored and lonely and welcome some proselytizers to fill your time - not the way many of us live. If I want to have a conversation - thanks, I'll do so with my family. If I want to have a debate - I have some great intellectual friends who I spar with. And don't impose your debates on me.
I don't feel the need to re-visit fairtyales that I've heard in various forms too many times to mention. You are welcome to believe in the power of your rabbit's foot. You are not welcome to pester me about why I should have one, nor am I obliged to "debate" the power of the rabbit's foot with anyone. Will the Jehovah's witnesses welcome me coming in repeatedly and trying to set up a blood donation drive in their parking lot? Didn't think so.
Speaking of religious insanity... Have you all heard that Herman "Herb" Cain is saying that Jesus was the ""perfect conservative" and was killed by liberals?
ReplyDeletehttp://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/10/15/1026683/-Herman-Cain-Says-Liberals-Killed-Jesus
About fifteen years ago I had JWs show up at my door at various times of the day two or three days apart for almost two weeks. Of course, I was getting rather tired of that. Each time they came to the door I tried to be polite and when they handed me their papers I handed them back and said no and don't come back.
ReplyDeleteOne day, being in a rather foul mood, I ask them why are they harassing me and they were no longer welcome on my property. I told them to "mark it down on their little map that they are not welcome and I will have a restraining order against them if they come back.
When I mentioned the map the eyes of the one apparently in charge widened as if to say "he knows about the map".
So far they have not come back.
Also,too, I fully agree with Gryph's statement! "Christian" acts of kindness,helping others, and giving of yourself to the greater community is often done by people of all faiths, and atheists alike.
ReplyDeleteI was never baptized as a child (after all my mother was a transplanted non- practicing Zen Buddhist and my dad a non-practicing Protestant). None of my siblings belong to any organized religion, except for my youngest sister.
And really, until she got married, she didn't give a flying you know what about it either. She converted to Catholicism and suddenly Halloween was evil, and all she could talk about was how wives need to be "submissive" to their husbands - I was expecting her to start wearing a kerchief and walk ten paces behind her husband!
But what most offended me was when she started to tell me, over and over - that I was going to "go to Hell" because I wasn't baptized.
Even though I don't have a religious belief system, I thought, how offensive and rude - because, gee whillikers (sp?) - even Atheists don't like to be told they're going to hell.
I usually reserve a comment like that for someone who has done something real bad - and should go to hell! Like Ms. Palin, for instance. After I got over being speechless, I did manage to ask her if she thought her Christian god was going to also send all the billions of people in the world who have a different faith to hell, just because their mommies forgot to baptize them,too.
Oh yeah, all the non-christians, no matter what were going to burn in hell. She was so serious! I shrugged and said "Oh well, I'm not really worried, baptized or not - I do "God's" work each and everyday, I never needed God to tell me to do good things for others.
I told her I knew personally of many baptized "Christians" who are out in the community committing infidelity against their wives, abusing others, stealing, lying, (faking pregnancies, LOL) not even attending their churches - and to think that by virtue of being baptized, regardless of the sins they commit, they can go to heaven when so many other good, decent people are sent to burn in hell! I let her know it doesn't say much for her newly found "God", and I thanked "GOD" I never fell in with HIS crowd.
As far as my sister ever being submissive to her husband - that lasted about two weeks and SHE wears the pants in the family, and the church going didn't last long either. LOL.
When all the priest/pedophilia scandals broke out - I was very Christian - like and didn't bring up the topic to her or her husband (who is a very devout Catholic, super great guy!). He just never perfected that bit about dominating his wife!
I was raised in a Minnesota family that belonged to an association called Northern Independent Militant Fundamentalist Baptists. It was as scary as it sounds.
ReplyDeleteI went to a Baptist school through tenth grade; miraculously, I managed to convince my parents to allow me to transfer to a public school for my senior year, which allowed me to graduate a year early at age 16. That was my path out. I had to go to a Baptist college my first year, since I wasn’t of legal age, I was able to get my own apartment soon afterwards at the age of 18.
I knew from age 9 or 10 that the entire system was unfair. I didn’t necessarily know right from wrong or logical from illogical, but I had a gut instinct that the entire system wasn’t fair. I was one of those kids knocking on people’s doors, trying to convert the unbelievers. I apologize if I knocked on yours.
It took many years of therapy (funny story…I met a preacher’s ex-wife at my therapist’s office; I knew the preacher from long ago; his wife just took off during the invitation one Sunday morning), a master’s and doctorate degree, and massive amounts of student loans to figure out how messed up the religious system was, and how it affected the human psyche. Even as an undergraduate student, I needed to find a scientific and empirical explanation of what had happened, and what continues to happen to other people in rigid religious systems. I conducted a study that examined outcomes of adults raised in rigid and fearful religious environment. The outcomes weren’t pretty. I finally felt that I wasn’t alone or totally weird for feeling how I felt. It took several years of graduate school before I knew enough statistics to publish my findings, but I finally did. It was the most cathartic research I’ve ever done.
As a matter of fact, just writing this post has been cathartic. Thank you for listening. For those of you that have had a positive experience with religion, I’m happy for you. I do believe it can be a positive thing, if it’s not taken to extremes or conducted in an environment of fear. However, don’t come knocking on my door.
OMG, LUCY!!! Quit already, I really don't care if you think you have something good to share with those you love and don't love and therefore it's "okay" to share!
ReplyDeleteYou still don't have the "right" to share it with people who don't want what you have to share - THAT is what we call coercion, manipulation, bullying, disrespectful!!!
Go share with people who want to share it with you! I am not intolerant of your right to practice your religion as you see fit - just don't try to force me to listen to your beliefs! Stop trying to get into my house!
One more thing, if any candidate believes he's got a direct hotline to GOD and GOD is talking to him/her - that'll be the one I won't be voting for, for sure.
They ran screaming from your place too?? Man, the monkey squad really does get around....
ReplyDeleteSpeaking of the monkey squad, anything new from the sea- o-pea squad that lives over at Bristol's place???
Noras,
ReplyDeleteI think you have confused people's freedom to join any religion they want and their freedom to speak about it with MY rights as a property owner not to be harassed by people peddling their religion AFTER they have been told not to on my personal property. Please explain why I need to be polite and take their pampjlets if they do not accpet the first "no thank you". Please explain why I should have been polite when one group of JW's REFUSED to leave my property. I too have rights, I do not go into any church and preach my religion, I do not go to people's homes to harass them, so why is it on me to put up with being bothered?
Every couple of months? I have had yrs where it is weekly, being polite has gotten us no where. Luckily we now have 2 retired police canines that I make sure are "on guard" when they pull up onto our property. They are asked to leave politely ONCE, after that they get told about the "castle laws" in Texas.
Well, I always allow Jehovah's Witnesses into my house and I will debate them as long as they like. I had some coming back several times until they finally admitted defeat.
ReplyDeleteI don't think it's useful to paint all religions as being equal. Some are more nefarious than others, and it is wise to be vigilant. We have two or three religious movements in this country with calculated designs of taking over this republic. The Mormons are one of them.
Nora & MickeyMusing,
ReplyDeleteYou can both bite my ass.
Nobody has a RIGHT to inflict their beliefs on anyone else. PERIOD. ESPECIALLY when they are coming uninvited to someone else's door. They have the right to believe whatever the hell crazy bullshit they want, but they DON'T have any RIGHT to make others listen to their bullshit. If they want to stand on a corner and spout their beliefs in public, that's fine. I've got no problem with that. However, stay the fuck off my doorstep if you're trying to push your religious beliefs. I don't want you there doing that, and believe me, if you piss me off by ignoring my requests to leave, you sure as hell aren't going to convince me that you're more enlightened than I am.
Why does their/your desire to proselytize supersede my desire for privacy, or even my legal right to keep them/you off my property? If suddenly I decide I want to become Mormon, or Jehovah's Witness, or Fundagelical Dominionist Shithead, I believe I can find them. They are in the phone book and I can find their glory barns via MapQuest. I don't need to be stalked by these assholes.
I'm not impressed by your indignant sanctimony any more than I am impressed by pushy arrogant pricks who have so little respect for me that they would come to my home uninvited and insult my intelligence by thinking I give a fat rat's ass about their desire to see that I fall in line with their beliefs. I don't. Their mere presence at my door is a rather condescending swipe that they view me as being morally and spiritually inferior to them.
Their right to believe extends only as far as my right to believe or NOT believe as I see fit. When they try to push beyond that point, they are no longer exercising their rights, they are harassing me.
You are free to believe whatever you want, but don't assume that I'm just waiting for you to tell me all about your faith and that I am hungering to be just like you.
Because, rest assured, I am not.
Oh the persecution going on in this thread! Waaaaaaah. I believe it's my sworn right and duty to walk up to anyone's door and sell them fuller brushes, rainbow vacuum cleaners, Amway Products, Avon products, Sex toys, novelties, lotions, potions, whips, chains, and even great danes. (especially tall, blonde, blue eyed ski isncrutrutors named "lars") But Religion? Seriously?
ReplyDeleteWhy can't people respect my right to not believe, yet feel the sworn duty and sole purpose of their existance is to "Change" me, and the only way to do it is to beat a path to my door over and over and over again?
Not belonging to a religion does not exclude spirituality, nor doing "human deeds", as Gryphen calls them. I do just as much, if not more trying to help the poor, feed the hungry, and clothe the naked. I do it because I chose to, and don't expect them to "Change" whatever they choose to believe or not believe. They owe me nothing, not even "thank you".
What do I get in return? What's in it for me? The simple fact that I did something, anything to help someone in need, so maybe karma would have the favor returned to me in my time of need. I said maybe. I expect little so what little I may get, I deserve and appreciate. If I get nothing, I'm not disappointed.
I'm with Gryphen on this, we need to put things in some kind of perspective. All roads lead to Rome, not all Romans use the same road, but they always get to Rome.
Why is that?
Why is that?
I don't hold to any religion now, but I grew up Mormon in non-Mormon communities. Until I learned how to fight and face down bullies, I would often find myself pinned to the ground by two or three while another pounded my face or scrubbed it with snow... "f..king Mormon. We hate Mormons." the bullies would boast.
ReplyDeleteIn your comments here, some of you remind me of those bullies. I think had you been there, you would have joined them.
I don't want to call anyone an idiot, but, onething, that sure is an idiotic statement on your part. But in that regard, you have plenty of company here. I single you out only because your comment immediately precedes mine.
I actually agree with much of logic behind Bill Maher's statements, but it does seem to come across to many as an excuse and justification to be intolerant.
My two cents:
ReplyDelete~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Jesus was perfect.
PERFECT!
What is lost is that we are supposed to TRY and live/act/love like Jesus, but of course we will fall short at times.
Jesus forgives us.
We are just supposed to continue to keep trying our best to offer love, kindness and positive energy into the world, instead of negativity.
(I KNOW I fail! Certainly here when talking about SP! But, I think she brings out the worst in me because she does USE Jesus/God for her own lying scam; and that is as much an insult to me as insulting a loved one of mine.)
The disparity between Christ and His Christians often has me shaking my head in sadness and disbelief.
ReplyDelete(**shoutout to Ghandi!**)
10:07-
ReplyDeleteThat's a great story, Pogo!
But what if she'd said she'd have to take a closer look!!!
=0
;)
@11:07- Thanks so much!
ReplyDelete(Kinda o/t but if anyone is contemplating getting a smartphone and/or a Kindle, you don't have to choose! You can download the Amazon Kindle App (free) to your phone and Bam! You're reading in NO time! Warning: It is can be VERY addicting! =) )
So i just got "Can Mitt Romney Serve Two blah blahs" for $3.82.
I don't have to store all these books (yay!), but I can't share them with friends either (boo!).
Bitter~sweet.
=)
Thank doG for Bill Maher!
ReplyDeletewatch 'Religulous'
Marleycat, If your sister converted to Catholicism and went all ape about Halloween and the submissive stuff, she was doing it on her own or is in some very odd fundy RC parish because neither of those are anything the church teaches. They also no longer teach that non baptized people will go to hell but I am sure there are individuals who still spout that. I was raised Catholic, went to Catholic schools and always questioned so much of what was supposed to be truth. When, at a very young age, I realized people made those rules, not God, my faith started to crack. It started in my first catechism class with the bit that newborn babies who died couldn't quite get into heaven unless they were baptized, widened a bit when I learned that women couldn't be priests and cracked more when I got older with the ban on birth control and finally split open completely with the sex abuse and actually having known some of the priests who were abusers.
ReplyDeleteMost non believers that I know have studied religions extensively and come to their own conclusions about the validity of the tenets of those religions. Most believers that I know, have studied nothing about religion, even their own, and are content to have someone else tell them what to believe. I realize there are exceptions to that statement. This is my experience with people I know; yours may be different.
One of the funniest things about religion I've ever heard of was: Some years ago (I've lost track) the Southern Baptist held their National Convention in Salt Lake City. I believe they were there for around 2 weeks. They used their time there to "witness for the Lord" by going door to door to bring enlightenment to the Mormons. It received a lot of TV coverage and some reporters followed them around to get the homeowners reactions which were totally priceless. Baptists telling MORMONS they were on the wrong path in SLC??? How DARE they. I laughed myself silly over every story.
ReplyDeleteI live in a Condo with a rental unit next door. There was a group of people who rented it for three weeks. Every morning the ladies with children in tow would leave - all gussied up, Bibles (or Book of Mormon?)in hand. They'd come back late in the afternoon, dragging. Thankfully they never knocked on my door. I would have been firm but polite, respecting their right to believe what they want as long as they keep it to themselves & without knowing one thing about me, insist that their way is the only way. Yes, I've had many encounters over the years from the "door knockers."
The worst I ever experienced was from the recently converted JW wife of my Boss. She had been a wild, heavy drinking party girl for many years. When she converted, she turned fanatical. No holiday's for their son, etc. My boss was tolerant of her conversion & never spoke a word about it but he did set some limits. One limit he was adamant about was that she never "visit" any of his employees or co-workers. He did tell me about that & I thanked him. Almost immediately thereafter, she showed up on my front porch with another lady. I tried to be polite, but then she started bad mouthing him, saying how he was going to hell and other equally horrible things about him. I lost it! He was one of the most kind, decent, & honest men I've ever known. I blasted her. Asked how if she was so godly could she speak such vile things about her own husband. I told her never to darken my door again & tell her friends not to come around either. The lady with her looked extremely uncomfortable while she was ranting & I felt sorry for her.
I never had another JW visit while I lived there. The wife went home & laid into him about my yelling at her - probably told him to fire me. The next day at work, he was livid and embarrassed. He called me aside & apologized to me and said that she had violated his trust and he had made it abundantly clear to her that it was never to happen again and if it did, I was to call him immediately. It didn't. I don't know if they're still married but had heard there were rocky times going on.
Funny you should mention this. I was awakened this morning by incessant knocking at my door bright and early (for me) on Sunday morning. Outside were several Jehovah's witnesses.
ReplyDeleteThe funniest thing was when I told them I had no interest in religion, having gone to Catholic school for 12 years and getting my fill of the hypocritical bullshit - they told me they agreed it was hypocritical bullshit!
One hypocritical bullshit belief system calling another one on being hypocritical bullshit.
Honestly, I could not bring myself to be rude. They were so earnest, so polite, so brain dead.
But if they came by every week, I would be rude as hell.
@Gasman 11:08
ReplyDeleteI don't think they come to your door to save you, i think they come to your door to save themselves.
... orders from headquarters.
Olivia - my sister did indeed start spouting that stuff after she converted from heathen to Catholicism. For being a dominant woman in all her interactions with everyone she had relationships with, including men - these things came directly as a result of classes to learn about the Catholic Church and its teachings.
ReplyDeleteShe specifically said she would not ever let any of her children participate in Halloween because it was Satan's holiday. If the priest wasn't teaching her that bullshit, where was it coming from? She also now believed birth control was evil, too, other than the rhythm method. The priest was very old school.
Perhaps they don't teach those things officially now, but I would bet her husband, who grew up devoutly Irish Roman Catholic, was taught those beliefs and helped "educate" my sister, during that conversion period, which was almost 30 years ago.
My sister has never been terribly introspective, and not a paragon of critical thinking. She basically adopted her husband's religious and political stances (even though, oddly, she was the boss in the house).
While I never engaged in any exchange with them about the pedophile scandals through the years - on more than one occasion I heard all about how most of the victims were lying and just doing it for the money - absolutely no concept for the harm perpetrated on the children and systemic criminal cover up the Church engaged in. I kind of felt sorry for them defending the indefensible.
I mean, she saw commercials on TV selling Obama gold coins after the election and believed it was disgusting that Barack Obama was hawking gold coins - even her husband, who also hates Obama and blacks, told her it was NOT Obama selling the coins nor was he involved in any part of it. She also believes Obama was born in Kenya.
Perhaps she was told that's what used to be taught - but hubby reinforces the old train of thought, all I can say is, if that's the case, she did not allude to it being part of "past" teachings, she insisted this is what she learned.
She even said Catholics were the "Chosen Ones" and somehow their Christianity is more valid than all the other churches and disapproves of the Baptist, Methodists, Fundies, etc. as not being authentic enough - so while she sounds fundie she would never hang around them - NEVER!
I also discussed this with other Catholics (not younger Catholics) who grew up in the Church, practicing and lapsed, and they confirmed the no Baptism Go To Jail directive and that this is a basic tenet of Christianity.
A Methodist Minister confirmed that some denominations still teach that, but many deemphasize it now. He was careful not to disparage Catholicsm.
She and my BIL were pretty hard-core Catholic when they began their married life together. There are many older Catholics who vehemently disagreed when changes were made to rules - and continue to espouse the old rules as if they are current.
Sadly for my sister, years later, her husband(the "devout" one) did have an affair, which they worked through - but should he have wanted to divorce/ marry someone else in the Church - The Church would have granted an annulment and their marriage would have been "disappeared".
Marleycat, it does sound like she got her instruction from one of those old school priests. They are still out there. That is the church my mom grew up in although the Halloween crap had to be the priest's rule. We used to (in the 60s) trick or treat at the parish rectory and the convent. We all loved Halloween because November 1 is All Saint's day and is a holy day of obligation. Going to Catholic school,we had Nov 1 off because it is All Saint's day.
ReplyDeleteToo bad about your sister in law. Some people really need those stupid rules to live by. They have such fear of what will happen if they don't. No dogmatic religion wants any kind of critical thinking going on.
i grew up around the block from a jehovahs witness hall. i am unsure if they had 'black lists' but if they did, my house was most definitely on them. perhaps thats why they kept coming back time and time again, pushing harder and harder each time.
ReplyDeletei would answer the door with a smile each time. i would politely listen to the start of their preamble, before informing them that i am a bisexual, secular naturalist, and that their brand of fear and misguidance was not welcome at my home.
they would be all to excited to let me know that their religion welcomes those who believe in saving the planet, before i'd sigh and repeatedly say, 'no, you dont'
then i would tell them that i adhere to the standards of the universe and scientific method, not the magical man in the sky, and promptly close the door.