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| Yeah it does! Oh wait, were you being sarcastic? |
#10 – Lower Crime Rates
That’s right, secular countries have the lowest crime rates and are the safest places on the planet.
#9 – Lower Homicide Rate
#8 – Lower Rates of Sexually Transmitted Diseases
Almost all secular nations have sex education programs for children, confidential public health-care programs to treat sexually transmitted diseases for free, publicly advertised programs to educate the masses about sexually transmitted diseases, and free condoms for any and all.
#7 – Lower Rates of Infant Mortality
Why do religious countries have higher rates of infant mortality? It is probably because of the demonization of unwed mothers by religious societies. Combine this demonization with an inability to receive an abortion, and you will have a large group of mothers having children that they don’t want and/or can’t economically afford.
#6 – Lower Rates of Teen Pregnancy
As should be clear by now, secular nations tend to encourage sex education and have a far more honest understanding of human sexuality than religious nations.
#5 – Lower Abortion Rates
This is one of the hardest and most bitter pills that religious nations have to swallow, their policies of restricting the ability of women to receive an abortion, actually results in increased rates of abortion.
#4 – Healthier Citizens
The citizens of secular countries are healthier than the citizens of religious countries. The reasons for this difference are almost certainly due to a combination of factors involving public education, health-care policies, access to care, etc.
#3 – Citizens have Better Personal Relationships
The citizens of secular nations have better interpersonal relationships (and are more happy!) than the citizens of religious nations. Religious nations tend to demonize life-styles that don’t conform to their expectations, and tend to place women at a lower social status than men.
#2 – Citizens Have Higher Education Rates
Secular nations such as Norway, Finland, etc., not only have citizens with an average education that is higher than religious countries, but the children of secular nations outperform religious children in math, science, and reading.
#1 – Higher Per Capita Income
Possibly the single most important reason why you should want to live in a secular nation instead of a religious nation, is that the citizens of secular nations make more money than the citizens of religious nations!
I am actually not at all positive that I agree with every one of these, but I will admit that some of them do seem quite obvious. However I am certain I would not have chosen the making of more money as the number one reason to live in a Atheistic society.
Personally I LOVE conversations about religion since it is one of those taboo topics I was discouraged from discussing when I was a kid. Since I am now an adult, and have this handy blog at my disposal, it seems like the perfect place to open up a dialogue.
So what do you think? Do these statements, or perhaps a portion of these statements, seem reasonable to you? And do you think religion overall makes for a better society, or does it interfere with the ability of humans to rise to their true potential?
P.S. If you want to read a longer explanation given for these assertions then click the link at the top.
P.P.S. By the way, in NO way do I agree with the definition of Atheism posted at the top, but I just think it is important that ALL of us be able to keep a good sense of humor so that feelings do not get hurt and we do not become so defensive that we cannot hear the honestly expressed opinions of others.
always thought that religion was a private search and did not involve the government. same thing for the subject of sexual orientation and having kids. government is not lacking in things that need attention.
ReplyDeleteI think we have religion to thank for teaching us how to swear and use profanity. For myself, I am sure it never would have occurred to me otherwise.
ReplyDeleteI'd move to Norway, Sweden, heck even Canada if they'd let me in. This place is going to hell in a handbasket.
ReplyDeleteThe problem I have with Atheism is that it defines itself entirely as opposition to specifically Christian concepts. To me, that makes it just as narrow minded and unlikely to be true.
ReplyDeleteI think the word you're looking for is SECULAR, not Atheist. There's a difference. Secular chooses not to address that particular issue at all, dealing strictly in the fairest pragmatic principles that can be defined.
The act of faith is to believe without proof, and that's fine if you want to live that way, whether you invest that faith in God or in the belief that God doesn't exist. The problem is when you feel the need to affirm your convictions by forcing them on ME.
I don't believe the problems are one of belief or non-belief, but rather of extremist belief one way or the other. Extremism is the cancer on our society.
Agnosticism is, IMHO the only rational point of view. Admitting that you don't know the answer is the first step towards getting past the question.
When you admit that you don't know, your mind can be open. It's hard to be oppressive with openmindedness.
Its funny; I always thought I lived in a secular nation until the last couple of years. The Dominionists have gone crazy and destroyed my perception of that, I suppose.
ReplyDeleteSo I say---If only we lived in a secular nation; I would rejoice.
I'm an Atheist because I don't believe in a God, any of them, all of them. Birth is a genesis of cells given life through biological means, and death is the cessation of the life giving means to those collection of cells.
ReplyDeleteThe problem is, that while there is much good in religion there is also much bad. All organized religions, so far as I know, have been utilized in a symbiotic relationship with the state to control the people and contain a lot of baloney and BS and brainwashing.
ReplyDeleteThe next step in our evolution will hopefully involve a mature spirituality that does not involve coercion, judgmentalism, inclusiveness, or negativity. Or the need to evangelize.
One of the native American chiefs said, we may fight over territory, or women, or some other thing, but we do not fight about God. We do not want to learn that.
And when I read that, I thought, how sane! Why would we ever, ever, ever fight about God? What can there possibly be to fight about?
I think religions, especially fundamentalist ones, keep hundreds of millions of people from earnestly attempting to find their own vision of what god might mean.
ReplyDeleteFor a while, when I was in my teens, I was inspired by a great Lutheran pastor, and considered possibly becoming one myself. Norman L. Orth.
Since then, I've learned a lot more from Native Americans and the Hubble space telescope than from religious texts or sacred texts.
I admire atheists - including my wife - for their cold skepticism. That's how I approach politics.
But having been dead twice now - once for almost four minutes - I sensed there is a "there" there, on the other side. That doesn't prove that god exists, but continuity of our DNA presence and its important part of what the universe was, is and will be, are, at least to me, real.
One thing that I do believe from what we've learned about the multiplicity of galaxies from the Hubble images, is that there is a helluva good chance that other planets exist with beings far, far more intelligent than we are.
Organized religion was responsible for the demise of Caprica.
ReplyDeleteThe argument was one true god versus several gods. It seemed almost as picayune a conversation as the 'Thank Science' episode on South Park.
Gryph! We never discuss sex, religion, or politics in polite company. Harumph!
ReplyDeleteTo me it's a bigger fairytale that we all got here from nothing.
ReplyDeleteObviously there is a God, he has an amazing sense of humor: Sarah Palin
ReplyDeleteThe points are probably true. And, this coming from me, a want-to-be christian.
ReplyDeleteIt's interesting to speculate on and imagine what a world without religion might be like. Don't know all there is to know about all the major world religions, but one theme they all have in common is the life hereafter. I guess atheists concentrate on the here and now, and it's important to them to glean as much as possible from this life.
But what's after death, and all those questions that we all hate to address are the reason, maybe, that people seek more than what offers in this life. They have to know there's something to look forward to - that they will carry on.
One thing that we all have in common is that we are alive in this world. No one has come back from the dead. Well, that's not entirely true in my worldview......but, we haven't heard anyone tell us their story about dying, and seeing the other side and coming back. Well, some people say they've experienced that but the naysayers will explain it as hallucinations in a near comatose condition.
I'd like to see an experiment of different groups on an isolated island, and see how they progress. If they were all atheists, would they get along and live peacefully.
Am just listening to....."A time to live, a time to die, A time to love, a time to break down.....a time to gather stones together......to everything turn, turn, there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven....A time of love a time of hate a time of war a time of peace......a time to refrain from embracing.....A time to gain, a time to lose, a time to rend........a time of peace, I swear it's not too late. To everything turn, there is a season, turn turn turn" on PBS. Wow, that was good timing. Or was it not coincidence?
I, like Bill Maher, am an Apathetic Athiest...an Apathiest if you will...
ReplyDeleteI don't know what happens after I die, and I don't care...
Actually, I will tell you my conversion story...
My family was Southern Baptist. We went to church every Sunday and most Wednesdays. Not crazy SB, mom smoked, cursed some when she got mad, etc.
She was a Sunday School Teacher and I didn't know any better than going to church, loving Jesus..etc.
Then my mother passed away suddenly from Brain Cancer after moving her office next to the local hospital which shared a parking lot with a substation (btw, several employees in this 3 story office building were stricken with cancer within the first year of occupancy in this building. CDC came and did cancer cluster study there...but concluded that power lines don't cause cancer..I assume they mean, "power lines don't cause cancer, but being around them sure as hell does..."
A lot of people from her church came and said God told them they were going to heal here...blah blah blah blah...
She died.
Several days after she died I lied down to take a nap. it was the most peaceful and amazing nap I ever had. I had a dream she came to me and told me not to waste my life on this church stuff. I wasn't going to hell or heaven and to make the most of my life while I was still able to.
So, I woke up..totally refreshed, like I saw the world different from that moment on. I immediately didn't understand why i invested so much time in religion.
I saw religion for what it was...a fairy tale meant to instill morality and fear into massive groups of people in order to control them.
I no longer subscribe to that train of thought.
My friends who are uber christians always ask me aren't I afraid of spending my eternity in hell...and I always answer, 'well, baptist believe once saved always saved right? so since I was saved when I was 11 I am still covered right??? Just in case I am wrong about this Athieism.."
It pisses them right off...
Shellyamberstone@yahoo.com
I'm a United Methodist and I believe that Jesus died for our sins and to hate the sin but love the sinner. However I also believe in separation of church and state. That is why the colonists left England. They did not appreciate the King declaring the Church of England as the official state religion, as many were Methodists, Lutherans, Catholics etc.
ReplyDeleteI agree with the poster that said it should be SECULAR, not ATHEIST. To me Atheist means no religion at all, ex. Communist countries.
Maybe there is "a God" who has nothing to do with organized religion, locusts, priests, thunder storms, professional sports, holy books, American politics etc. etc.
ReplyDeleteI have a deep and unshakeable faith in God, which grew out of my original Catholic upbringing to encompass mysticism. In no way do I believe in church rules, nor do I think any human being should impose spiritual beliefs on any other, ever. I'm perfectly comfortable with people believing whatever they want, right up until it gets in the way of ME believing what I want.
ReplyDeleteBTW - I believe in the Big Bang and in evolution and in science. To me, that's how we understand everything happening in our universe. I see no conflict between science and God, in my worldview anyway. There's room for both.
I do agree with Lynne @4:46, though - there's nothing like a religious upbringing to teach you how to cuss!
Shelley, what an interesting story.
ReplyDeleteI believe in all things in moderation, including religion. And the list is wrong in at least one respect: studies show that Jewish Americans as a group are extremely well-educated and earn far more than those of other faiths. The survey (Pew I think) did not compare atheists, but I'd bet they would not fare as well as a group as the Jewish survey respondents.
I don't practice any religion and feel no faith. I actually envy the feeling of faith of those around me.
As I wrote on previous threads, I spent Thanksgiving with the 'Christian' GOP relatives. It occurred to me today that the next time I hear someone say they hate Obama because he's a socialist, my succinct reply will be, "Well, Jesus was the first socialist, and you love him."
ReplyDeleteI am pretty sure that I believe in something. I am just not sure what. Just kidding. Actually, I know exactly what I believe in but it is none of your or anyone's business. I think that everyone should be able to believe what they want to but they should never be allowed to push their beliefs on anyone else. I think that people who need to evangelize or proselytize their particular superstition aren't very secure in that superstition and need to recruit more believers in order to feel vindicated in that belief.
ReplyDeleteCan someone show me in the bible where it says believers must honor the creator with shrines of gold, marble and glass? This silliness of building bigger and bigger churches, mosques and temples to outdo the others is insane just to make believers fell good about their faith
ReplyDeleteI like the current Dalai Lama's belief that all religion boils down to compassion because that is a concept that even those who follow no organized religious doctrine or ritual can grasp and work to master.
ReplyDeleteCompassion is the ability to feel sympathy and empathy, to be able to forgive,be kind and tolerant.
Compassion is not easy because we feel fear, envy, anger, and apathy. If we strive to feel compassion for ourselves, for others, for other living creatures and compassion for the earth itself we have little time or room for negative feelings or behaviors.
If we try to understand someone we find it is more difficult to hate them. We may dislike how they act or what they do, but we begin to feel empathy, sympathy and sometimes sorrow for them and want to help them instead of hate them.
Being kind to ourselves, understanding ourselves and forgiving ourselves first frees us to do the same for others.
Compassion is the key to understanding and tolerance. Anyone, even atheists, agnostics or those who believe in a spiritual path but not in organized religion can embrace.
It is a pity that most of those in our society who proclaim their religiosity cannot embrace simple compassion. They are more invested in being right.
I believe in a secular society. Within it, each person is free to pursue spiritual paths or not according to their inner truth. What they cannot do if they live within a tolerant, secular society is demand that anyone or everyone else follow their path.
ReplyDeleteSecular societies are not the same as atheists societies. Atheism is, to me, the opposite extreme the True Believer. I much prefer to live and let live as long as we all respect each other's freedom to choose whether or not to believe and how to worship if you do believe (insofar as following that belief harms no one).
Imagine no religion, it's easy if you try. Nothing to kill or die for. Above us only sky.
ReplyDelete- John Lenon.
Would you live your life differently if you thought this was the only chance you had? Would you take responsibility for your own actions if you knew that there was no god? To to me, the most egregious aspect of religion is that it makes people perpetual children - never growing up and taking charge of their destiny. And always blaming things on god.
We are some alien kid's science fair experiment. joke's on us!
ReplyDeleteThe Evolution of God, by Robert Wright, was one of the best books I ever read.
ReplyDeleteanon @ 4:58 - the definition of atheism is "no belief in god or gods." Nothing more, nothing less. It does not single out Christian concepts. In America that may appear to be the case, especially among the more activists atheists, but that is only because there are more Christians in this country than any other religion. An atheist in Iran would be viewed as opposed to Islamic concepts. Atheists are opposed to believing in something for which there is absolutely no evidence. We are generally forgiving if belief is private but we do get pretty wigged out when believers try to build laws and public policy around their religious beliefs and practices.
Great post and so thought provoking. Religion has always stood in the way of progressive thinking and momentum in society. Those who take the road of needing an explanation for their existence rather than just accepting the fact that they do exist and should expound on that fact will always bewilder me.
ReplyDeleteIf there is/was a "god" it would surely want it's followers to be progressive in thought, science and philosophy. The fact that many who believe in God reject these notions reaffirms my belief that there surely is no "god".
Anon @ 5.50 I'm not so sure about that sense of humor thing. After all he allowed his son to be beaten and nailed to a cross. Not very funny.
ReplyDeleteI think I love you.
ReplyDeleteLet me preclude this with my view that any fundamental belief system is inherently flawed, divisive and ultimately dangerous. Life is one big gray moment and anyone with even a spark of humility or intelligence should know that there's no way to know all the answers or the absolute truth.
ReplyDeleteThere is a very marked difference between spirituality and organized religion. A person can be spiritual and not be religious. Then again, I've met people who claim to be religious who show few signs of being in touch with a spirituality. Organized religion is such a dichotomy. It brings comfort, community and spirituality to so many and yet has caused and continues to cause so much hatred and pain in the world.
I don't want to belittle anybody's beliefs but I think that the world would be a better place if religions and spirituality were like ice cream preferences - private and unassailable. People have their favorite flavor - or combination thereof. Some people don't even like ice cream. But you never hear of the people who like vanilla killing the people who like chocolate, or the people who prefer rum raisin trying to force their preference on people who don't like rum raisin. Or 6 million mint chip lovers being murdered.
Only COMPLETE separation of church and state can protect us from ourselves, can prevent peoples' PERSONAL beliefs from influencing policies that affect all U.S. citizens. It can also prevent wars fought in the name of religion globally.
Believe whatever suits you, even if that belief is in the lack of God. But keep it to yourself and don't evangelize.
Well, not real sure what these folks mean by "secular nations" and "religious nations", but the CIA Factbook sure as heck thinks many people in Norway identify as church-affiliated in some way:
ReplyDeleteReligions:
Church of Norway 85.7%, Pentecostal 1%, Roman Catholic 1%, other Christian 2.4%, Muslim 1.8%, other 8.1% (2004)
And here's for Finland:
Lutheran Church of Finland 82.5%, Orthodox Church 1.1%, other Christian 1.1%, other 0.1%, none 15.1% (2006)
Sweden:
Lutheran 87%, other (includes Roman Catholic, Orthodox, Baptist, Muslim, Jewish, and Buddhist) 13%
And why not include Denmark:
Evangelical Lutheran (official) 95%, other Christian (includes Protestant and Roman Catholic) 3%, Muslim 2%
So, I stop there as far as even considering the contentions the Atheist group has stated (based on facts?).
I suppose starting with documented statistics might make their arguments more compelling.
Do they think the US is a secular or religious country? We are theoretically founded on separation of Church and State, yet as is obvious by this site many would disagree on that point.
Btw, the Scandinavian countries, while wonderfully progressive in many ways, have some of the highest alcoholism rates in the world. And they can be racist as hell, also. Far from utopias, secular or religious. Certainly a very high standard of living and excellent educational systems, but that has far more to do with the cradle to grave social safety net provided by astronomic taxation (I think it's good by and large, don't get me wrong).
@Shelly
ReplyDeleteI loved your conversion story, especially the dream part.
Probably should encourage people to explore this Atheist Connect site. Scroll down and find out more about the contributors, though info is quite limited.
ReplyDeleteAt least one is an interesting character, and I am being diplomatic.
Yuck.
I didn't even have to read this to appreciate its veracity.
ReplyDeleteTo @4:54 Pm
ReplyDeleteLet me guess: You're one of those individuals who shits all over us Canadians until things get tough down there, right?
Let me tell you something pal, I for one would NEVER let your kind in if it would teach you lesson in humility. You can stay in that fucking hell-hole, sorry-assed excuse of a "country" if that's going to be your attitude. You Americans never cease to amaze me with that kind of bullshit.
O/T but whatever happened to Joe McGinniss? And MeAgain? I understand if you don't know, Gryphen, but if you do, could you drop us a clue?
ReplyDeleteTo Phil Munger - Thanks! Beautifully said. I am with you 100 per cent! I always appreciate your words.
ReplyDeleteTo Gryphen: Equally well said. I cannot remove this morning's post from my heart - about how sick twisted parents teach kids to be sick and twisted. It has hung with me all day. Making God into mans' image is bad enough - making God into a reflection of this twisted angry approach to Life is an abomination.
I think that over time, societies will become less religious. But just as enforced religion is bad, I think enforced atheism is bad. I think it should be an "organic atheism".
ReplyDeleteBefore someone pulls out the Mao and Stalin card, try comparing USA to Canada or the Scandinavian countries.
The only thing we know for sure is this physical world. Everything else is conjecture. Who really cares if I'm going to heaven or hell if I do evil while I'm here?
ReplyDeleteIs there an afterlife? If time is a dimension, maybe there is. Maybe if time is a dimension we are still doing everything we've ever done on earth and it's still going on out there somewhere. Same for the future. But we don't know.
We do eventually compost back into the earth. The molecules that made up our bodies get recycled into other living entities. In that sense there might be eternal life. Otherwise, who really knows? I sure don't nor do I really care. I am for the only reality - the here and now.
We do know if we hurt someone's feelings. We do know if we damage someone's property or injure him some physical way. Those things we can control. We can make right those things here on earth. or at least try. All that really matters is how we treat others and what kind of life we live. That's my opinion.
The word from David Lister: "Holy wars, killing! They're just using religion as an excuse to be extremely crappy to each other!" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHCR2XS8tOU
ReplyDeleteAnonymous @ 4:58PM.
ReplyDeleteI don't think you understand the meaning of Atheism at all. It's not an "anti-Christian movement".
And I find Agnosticism to be an indecisive cop-out.
You are basically saying that only ostriches are "normal" because when they find themselves in a situation where they need to make a hard decision, they put their heads in the sand.
Either a god or god's exist or they don't. Refusing to look at the evidence or lack of it, and coming to the conclusion that neither side can be right because you would have to leave middle ground to make the decision.............well, like I said, that's a total cop-out.
Some people just can't seem to be able to figure out which side is "the right one", but what you seem to be advocating is that nobody should delve into it at all. Reminds me of the Jehovah Witnesses and the Mormon's. One shuns too much education because it might lead to a questioning of the faith, the other tells it's flock to only trust information that comes directly from the Mormon church.
People should distrust anyone or any organization who tries to keep them from seeking information. bt
@ 8:09PM
ReplyDeleteI don't think your information is correct.
For instance, every baby born in Norway is claimed by the Lutheran Church. For some reason, the government is complicit in this. You have to go through a painful paperwork process to officially remove yourself from the membership rolls. Most Norwegians don't bother.
I am an ex-Lutheran myself, but fortunately I just told the pastor that I didn't believe in a god, and he seemed to get the message.
Trying to come to a conclusion about God and religion makes my head hurt.
ReplyDeleteOne thing that I, as an atheist, don't worry about is "life after death" or any version thereof.
ReplyDeleteIf more people paid attention to the here and now and how we treat other human beings instead of pursuing our ego-driven desire for "something better after death," which all religions in one form or another pursue, we would all be much, much better off. That said, death is also a scary proposition for those who actually believe in a hereafter or in a god, so go figure.
Atheists are probably the least afraid of death than any other group because we understand it's the end of our existence.
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteO/T but whatever happened to Joe McGinniss? And MeAgain? I understand if you don't know, Gryphen, but if you do, could you drop us a clue?
8:50 PM
-----------------------------
It's puzzling that Joe has been silent for so long as he did promise to open his blog to comments again after 'The Rogue' book promotion tour was over. I hope he is just taking a little break.
As for 'Me Again' perhaps she feels since Sarah has no intention of running for POTUS and leader of the free world, she has done her patriotic duty in preventing a catastrophre and her job is done.
---------------------------
I've never understood why Presidential candidates have to divulge their religious beliefs. The need for a future leader to participate in a (faith) forum as the one held on August l6th., 2008, moderated by the Rev. Rick Warren, astonishes me.
Is there any other democratic country where this practice is tolerated?
I too define myself as agnostic, as it being the highest level of atheism. God(s) ? Don't even care.
ReplyDeleteGod(s) believers ? The most vocal ones use religion to be more assholish than their religion truly permits, and feel justified about it. The non-vocal ones use religion to be less assholish, to feel an incentive to better themselves, and to leave all judgments to a higher authority. I get along pretty well with those.
A great part in living in a non-religious state, is that everybody sees that the very vocal religious types are out of their mind and laugh at them. And once you don't take them seriously, what standpoint do they have ? Committing hate crimes to be taken more seriously ? Just treat them as common criminals, and their brethen will feel so much shame that they won't be following in their footsteps anytime soon.
Besides, I think the "top ten reasons of being an atheist nation" are mistaking causes for consequences. For me it all boils down to : "happy nations don't need hard religious beliefs".
When you don't feel continuously oppressed by higher-ups, you don't need to believe in a vengeful god above who promises to eventually do those ruffians what they've done you (even if only after death), to keep on bearing living.
It's what happened in my coutry (France). Religious observance and feelings have dropped sharply in the 20th century. Of course we've had social security since the end of WWII, and it does help to know that whatever illness we have, we'll be treated and won't get homeless nor broke over it.
I'm of the opinion that the founders did not go far enough with the 1st amendment.
ReplyDeleteSure "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion" sounds fine on it's face
The deeply religious ( people like Santorum and Bachmann) want to bring America to a condition resembling a theocracy.
What religious people nearly always hold as absolute dogma is that THEIR religion always is the only
one that's right and correct. They deeply believe that anyone else is "lost, going to hell" or is utterly deceived.
What if a strong lobbyist group of Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, or Bahai's started making inroads on Capitol hill, and convinced Congress to pass laws based on Sharia law, or the Bhagavad Gita?
The evangelical christians would be apoplectic in that case. But they can't somehow grasp that what they are doing is exactly the same, and is antithetical to the spirit of the 1st amendment.
Santorum in particular is so extreme, he is on the record as even opposing birth control
http://tinyurl.com/3nxolw8
Obviously, his entire life is devoted to his religious beliefs, and he literally wants to change the laws regarding sexuality, birth control, abortion, and women's rights to reflect his own religious outlook.
That's exactly what's been happening in the USA even back as far as the 60's, as evidenced by Gryph's coverage of Barry Goldwater warning that the Repubs are turning in to what I call the christian taliban.
http://tinyurl.com/3s2dz8n
For you religious folks that read this column, I respect your right to whatever belief system you care to adhere to.
PLease do extend the same to me, and don't expect millions of Americans of differing backgrounds, race, religion, or atheistic belief to ever share your enthusiasm for whatever gods you worship.
Imho, The 1st Amendment should be amended to read
"Congress shall make no law respecting establishment of religion, and no Federal or other elected American officials shall codify statutes based their faith, or the bible, or any other religious texts. Laws and statutes governing the American people must be neutral regarding all matters of religion."
Why does it bother some people that others have no religion at all? Forget this false comparison between secular and atheist. How about comparing religions to spiritual? You don't need god to be spiritual, and you certainly don't need religion.
ReplyDeleteI've had interesting discussions with an Atheist friends about this very thing. But let's take this to its logical conclusion.
ReplyDeleteSay we ban religion, having acknowledged that man likely created God. But why did man create God? Because he fears death, he fears the void, and because most people are followers and need to feel that there is someone watching over him.
So we ban religion. Poof! All gone! But nature abhors a vacuum, right, and you can't change human nature. That need to be led, directed, guided and watched over is going to persist and you're going to have some meglomaniac ready to step in and fill the void.
No, China and North Korea don't have God. But people are killed for trying to worship, which is just as reprehensible as killing people who don't worship the way you tell them to. As for the abortion issue, in China there are forced abortions. Sorry, but as someone who is pro-choice that has to cut both ways. I don't believe in forcing a woman to continue a pregnancy. I don't believe in forcing a woman to end it, either.
My diehard Atheist friends are really no different than the obnoxious Christians. They claim they hold the truth, and that their way is the only way. They hint at a utopian society where their view is forced on the rest of us. Radical atheism is the flip side of radical Christianity.
You'd be wise to carefully read the comments of Anonymous @ 4:58 because the writer is spot on. We should have a secular society, not an Atheist or Christian one. What should any of us care of someone believes in God? I don't. For some folks, that belief make their life better.
Most of my neighbors are practicing Christians. Those who don't know I'm a pagan suspect it and I get very little grief from the majority of them. My Christian friends are totally supportive, even though our belief systems are poles apart. There are noisy Christians scrabbling for power, but it's my belief that they won't be able to implement the agenda they are pushing. The average person - even in a majority Christian nation - do not want these Dominionist clowns running the show. That doesn't mean we shouldn't keep a collective eye on them, but don't mistake their noisemaking for power.
Sometimes I think certain people believe that spouting the Atheist line makes them seem more intellectual. But it doesn't. You can't argue the existence or non-existence of God. To do so is a fool's errand. The agnostics are smarter than the lot of those who sit around fighting about it.
I recommend a good book titled The Infidel. It is about a woman who escaped her upbringing and sought asylum in the Netherlands. It cleared up (immensely) for me, the clan wars in African countries and how The Brotherhood of Islam was fiananced by Saudi Arabia to unite these war torn countries through fear and religious control. It is a clear demonstration of using religion to control the masses in the modern world. Same fear shit as the middle ages but in modern times.
ReplyDeleteAlso, My highly catholic religious parents are nearing the end of their lives...lived in the same goddamned row house for 55 years, rarely traveled, read only religious stuff, socialized only with religious types. They have little human growth to show that they were on earth, other than some kids and grandkids. They are angry at their god for making them sick, and their church friends walk in for brief visits empty handed. If this is what being faithful gets you, I'll pass. Actually, I HAVE passed, but it took awhile to wake up.
Wolfbitch said...
ReplyDeleteI have a deep and unshakeable faith in God, which grew out of my original Catholic upbringing to encompass mysticism. In no way do I believe in church rules, nor do I think any human being should impose spiritual beliefs on any other, ever. I'm perfectly comfortable with people believing whatever they want, right up until it gets in the way of ME believing what I want.
BTW - I believe in the Big Bang and in evolution and in science. To me, that's how we understand everything happening in our universe. I see no conflict between science and God, in my worldview anyway. There's room for both.
I do agree with Lynne @4:46, though - there's nothing like a religious upbringing to teach you how to cuss!
6:27 PM
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Thank you, Wolfbitch -- your statement sounds very similar to what I would try to express.
to: Anon. @ 4:58 PM - -
ReplyDeleteI totally agree with your entire comment. Very well put, nice descriptions/analogies.
It is not hard to understand why a lot of people refer to a lot, or even most organized religions as very 'cultish'.
Anon. @ 6:21 PM -- (Shellyamberstone)
Very good comments -- and great reading!! Thanks for sharing your story.
Olivia @ 6:40 PM -- "...I think that everyone should be able to believe what they want to but they should never be allowed to push their beliefs on anyone else."
Right on!!!
Anon. @ 7:44 PM
Great comment --
"Great post and so thought provoking. Religion has always stood in the way of progressive thinking and momentum in society. Those who take the road of needing an explanation for their existence rather than just accepting the fact that they do exist and should expound on that fact will always bewilder me."
In fact, most of the comments for this post are so 'right on' and very interesting. Thanks to all of you!! I have enjoyed this post and all the comments.
What we have to remember about Finland, Norway, etc is that they are also homogeneous nations, which may be a huge factor in the lower crime rates in particular.
ReplyDelete@Anonymous 4:58 pm:
ReplyDeleteYou are completely wrong, which is probably why you feel so threatened by Atheism, which is simply NO belief in any gods. Please get over your Christian persecution complex; nobody is persecuting you.
God was indeed invented by man. God (or gods) were used to explain the unexplainable. Religion was invented to 1) keep control of people and, 2) to reassure those people that there was indeed an afterlife, and 3) that if they wanted that afterlife to be a good one, then they'd better behave in this one!
ReplyDeleteBut seriously, I think the real reason for religion and afterlife is because the "ego" in all of us cannot deal with the idea of no longer "being". It's much too difficult to consider that there is nothing whatsoever in our consciousness after our heart stops beating. Not sure why that is, because when we go to sleep, time passes and our consciousness goes into hibernation, so why is it so difficult to conceive of that happening in perpetuity?
Something that drives me absolutely crazy is when someone says something like "I survived the accident, praise be to God". Excuse me? What incredible egotism, to suggest that God singled you out for saving, while letting the driver of the other car die. Gee, aren't you special? Harumph!
I like christian values.
ReplyDeleteOur nation was based and founded on faith. Just cuz so many repubs want to bastardize it- hide behind- or use it to steal lie and kill- doesn't mean we abandon what got the rest (most) of us here.
I think it's all reasonable. I tend to believe that if a person has the right religion for them, they become emotionally healthier, more independent, more responsible.
ReplyDeleteA lot of people in our country have adopted an authoritarian religious structure. Even the "independent" churches have the Pastor at the top. In fact, I tend to think of Christianity as the religion that wouldn't survive without major help from government, and many Christians don't seem able to make decisons for themselves- they have to consult the bible or their minister or whatever. The dominant religion, in our country, promotes learned helplessness.
It would be more convincing if the author could tell the difference between a "secular nation" and "atheism". One does not equal the other. These are all good arguments for keeping religion out of government, but say nothing at all about atheism.
ReplyDeleteI agree with all the statements, if for no other reason than if the US had true separation of church and state that is where we would be.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous said...
ReplyDeleteAgnosticism is, IMHO the only rational point of view. Admitting that you don't know the answer is the first step towards getting past the question.
When you admit that you don't know, your mind can be open. It's hard to be oppressive with openmindedness.
4:58 PM
Also if we admit we don't know then there is no need to invent mystic mumbo jumbo to explain the unexplainable.
Blogger Hammer and a Feather said...
ReplyDeleteThe argument was one true god versus several gods.
5:32 PM
The problem with Christians claiming to be the true faith because they believe in only one God, (and since there is only one it has to be ours) is that almost as soon as the faith became a business it created a whole host of gods and demi and semi gods,and sort of Gods.
Father,son, holy ghost, legions of angles (one of whom grew balls and raped Mary), multiple devils, evil spirits, witches, daemons,and not forgetting the gazallion or so Saints who are divined as demi deities, not be God, but by mortal men awash in their sins and iniquities.
And of course there is Sarah Palin.
God only knows who gave her the title of godlette of the north,ranking only slightly beneath the Pope who I guess is a semi deity sans portfolio.
Anonymous Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteAs I wrote on previous threads, I spent Thanksgiving with the 'Christian' GOP relatives. It occurred to me today that the next time I hear someone say they hate Obama because he's a socialist, my succinct reply will be, "Well, Jesus was the first socialist, and you love him."
6:36 PM
Or just try. "Jesus loves him and Jesus says that God loves him,so why can't you"
Very very likely that most, if not all,of these things are true. They all make perfect sense and lead to more responsible people.
ReplyDeleteMy spiritual journey started with Catholocism and evolved to athesism, and I don't believe either is more "intellecutual" than the other. I really don't care what others choose, for me, Atheism makes the most sense for me, but I don't go around trying to convert others. Whatever floats your boat is fine with me.
ReplyDeleteMy "conversion" story was when I accompanied a friend to have an abortion, and one of my co congregants made it her sworn duty to report me to the bishop, which led to my excommunication for refusing to confess my "sin".
What cynched it for me was years later, when my devout father passed away from stage four colon cancer, we called the priest to give the last rites (a sacrament for the dead), and we waited, along with the undertaker, for seven hours for the priest to arrive. After sprinkling my father's corpse with holy water and saying some prayers, he said "That it, that's the big shebang, the best the church could offer", and lingered after the undertaker took the body, waiting for a "donation" or "tip".
So, basically, rigor mortis began to set in because of this priest's unexplained, inexcuseable tardiness, and we OWED him money for having to witness it? (for the record, this priest knows of my atheism/excommunication)
The man he eulogized at the funeral, was someone else, because those who knew my dad were scratching their heads in disbelief. I never shook the feeling he did that on purpose because of my obstinance, my choice.
I agree with Wolfbitch's pov.
Anon @ 8:28: How on earth did you surmise that Anon @4:58's comments reflected a fear of Atheism or a Christian persecution complex? You could benefit from a lesson in remedial reading skills.
ReplyDeleteTry again. If you still feel the same way then you are the perfect example of the close-minded hard-core Atheist that is basically a "non-believing fundamentalist." Your thought process is no different from someone like Sarah Palin's if you take any questioning of Atheism and spin it into persecution.
Good grief...
@ Morgan (3:49AM)
ReplyDeleteI don't know who Anon @ 8:28 is (couldn't find the comment), but it's pretty obvious that the the first and totally erroneous statement that Anon @ 4:58 is from someone with a "Christian Persecution Complex".
"The problem I have with Atheism is that it defines itself entirely as opposition to specifically Christian concepts."
Atheism is a lack of belief, not a lack of "Christian" belief.
You totally missed the first sentence and then chastised someone else to take a remedial reading course?