By the way this may be more than just a political tactic for Romney. There is some evidence that this is deeply ingrained in his character and in fact encouraged by his faith.
Lying for the Lord refers to the practice of lying to protect the image of and belief in the Mormon religion, a practice which Mormonism itself fosters in various ways. From Joseph Smith's denial of having more than one wife, to polygamous Mormon missionaries telling European investigators that reports about polygamy in Utah were lies put out by "anti-Mormons" and disgruntled ex-members, to Gordon B. Hinckley's dishonest equivocation on national television over Mormon doctrine, Mormonism's history seems replete with examples of lying. Common members see such examples as situations where lying is justified. For the Mormon, loyalty and the welfare of the church are more important than the principle of honesty, and plausible denials and deception by omission are warranted by an opportunity to have the Mormon organization seen in the best possible light. This is part of the larger package of things that lead many to describe Mormonism as a cult. "Lying for the lord" is part of Mormonism's larger deceptive mainstreaming tactics, and conversion numbers would drastically lower if important Mormon beliefs were fully disclosed to investigators.
I have no idea how much credibility to give to this line of thought, but the evidence of Mittens playing fast and loose with the truth is overwhelming.
In my personal life I have had some very unfortunate dealings with members of this faith, but I have never felt the blame lay with their belief system. However I will admit to being a little uncomfortable with the secrecy surrounding the Mormon religion. Which is much the way I feel about Scientology as well.
So in Romney's case do we feel his Mormonism has any impact on his ability to tell the truth, or do we chalk it up to good old fashioned Republican lying?
"Lying for the Lord" is an eye opening perspective. Until reading this I have had difficulty connecting the obvious lies and lack of core values that Willard exhibits to his purported strong religious faith. This makes the connection.
ReplyDeleteThe same perspective can probably be valuable in looking at any religion or philosophy.
Let's see . . . .
ReplyDeleteI'd put this one down to republican lying and Mitt's inability to be anything but a cardboard cutout with the backbone of a mound of jello.
Most of the GOP field claims to be christians and most of them have been lying like dogs in the hot sun. Lying seems to be running rampant in the GOP no matter what
the attending religion.
I hate to say this, but every Mormon man I've ever met (in the work force mainly) has proven to be a liar. Without fail! Just mention someone (male) is Mormon and my alert goes immediately into gear.
ReplyDeleteSure is appearing that Romney is another liar. Cannot say I'm surprised.
All of the above. The Mormon Church shares the same general philosophies with the Dominionists & the Vatican. They all lie to protect their churches & to rake in more "believers" who enhance their wealth & power. They're also set on making their specific religions the most "powerful." They all tend to share the right wing philosophies in most things, including, but not limited to, their war against women's rights. Republicans come from these power circles - power, greed, control & lying to achieve their, far from Godly, ends. Many of their "sheep" are sincerely good people, their leaders are not.
ReplyDelete"So in Romney's case do we feel his Mormonism has any impact on his ability to tell the truth, or do we chalk it up to good old fashioned Republican lying?"
ReplyDeleteThe GOP is now a religious cult political party that attracts a certain kind of person who can hold opposite views at once and not see the conflict. It would make my brain hurt, but no wonder they can't think straight anymore. Truth is the first casualty of the righteous war they believe they are fighting.
No matter who wins the nomination from the opposition of everything Party, we are looking at a second term for the Obama Administration.
ReplyDeleteLook at how Nobel Prize winner of Physics Energy Secretary Steven Chu unflinchingly takes responsibility for the Solyndra loans.
I'd like to match the failed investment in Solyndra against Sarah Palin's Mat-Maid Dairy experiment, years of waste and government propping up a loser business.
Then again, Sarah can just accuse Obama of copying her again, since she is the creator of everything.
You are absolutely right, Gryph.
ReplyDeleteI spent 18 years in Utah and it's a shame what that organization does to its members.
I don't even need to consider anything about Romney past the fact that he strapped his dog's carrier on the top of the family car and then said his dog liked it!
ReplyDeleteThat fact alone, the peculiar lack of empathy for a living creature, is enough to tell me what sort of person he really is.
He appears to be a person who will represent himself in any way he can to achieve his ultimate goal of power. As for Mormonism and lying? I don't know. There are plenty of practitioners of religions in this world. Those who wear the veneer of faith, hope, and charity. For most, it simply that...a veneer.
Seniors, disadvantaged, veterans, women....if Romney is elected, get ready to experience what the family dog did!
If you want to learn more about "lying for the lord," read The Mormon Murders. Eye-opening.
ReplyDeleteThis is perfect!
ReplyDeletehttp://obamadiary.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/mitts-play-on-words.jpg?w=548&h=400
Read "Under The Banner of Heaven," Jon Krakauer.
ReplyDeleteIt's specifically about FLDS - "extremist" Mormons. An odd concept itself, because "regular" Mormons are extreme, unconventional, non-conformist, rigid rules and ritual, and separate themselves from mainstream.
The book gives a very thorough and detailed background of Mormonism, how it started, key historic moments.
It's one of those books that you might not choose, find yourself reading because someone left it on the plane and you've got nothing else, and then can't put down.
Thank God for Lawrence O'Donnell:
ReplyDeleteRewriting Mitt Romney's Dishonest Anti-Obama Ad
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=KJFrJiW-F9U
This may be too inflammatory, but the pattern is hard not to notice. It's your blog. Post it if you want, but keep me anonymous. The fact-free community... they _always_ lie. It's what they do...
ReplyDeletehttp://www.infidels.org/library/historical/marshall_gauvin/did_jesus_really_live.html
http://motherjones.com/politics/2011/04/history-political-lying
http://liarsforjesus.com/
http://arstechnica.com/science/news/2011/08/crank-who-targeted-science-writers-lured-into-threatening-police.ars
http://www.alternet.org/story/152039/are_michele_bachmann%27s_views_about_%27christian_submission%27_even_more_extreme_than_she%27s_letting_on/?page=entire
http://www.opednews.com/articles/Centuries-of-Lying-in-the-by-Walter-Uhler-110512-411.html
http://www.politicususa.com/en/afa-uses-bartons-fake-john-quincy-adams-quote-to-support-theocracy
http://www.alternet.org/belief/150690/meet_the_religious_right_charlatan_who_teaches_tea_party_america_the_totally_pretend_history_they_want_to_hear/?page=entire
http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/05/mike-huckabee-fixes-american-history-video.php
http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2011/04/where-do-wingnuts-get-their-crazy.html
http://www.powells.com/biblio/1-9780062012616-0
http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2011/05/david-bartons-historical-hallucinations.html
http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_thelookout/20110509/us_yblog_thelookout/local-pastor-made-up-elaborate-navy-seal-tale
http://www.mormonthink.com/lying.htm
http://www.opednews.com/articles/The-Foundation-of-Religion-by-Daniel-Geery-110510-382.html
http://www.alternet.org/teaparty/151046/the_%27christian%27_dogma_pushed_by_religious_schools_that_are_supported_by_your_tax_dollars/?page=entire
http://www.alternet.org/teaparty/150946/10_great_things_about_america_that_drive_conservatives_and_the_religious_right_insane/?page=entire
http://jonathanturley.org/2011/05/15/who-should-be-teaching-our-children-about-the-constitution-a-post-about-the-tea-party-patriots-w-cleon-skousen-glenn-beck-and-the-national-center-for-constitutional-studies/
http://www.alternet.org/belief/150936/insider%3A_%22the_christian_right_is_aiming_to_destroy_all_things_public%22/?page=entire
http://www.ungodlynews.com/2011/07/portrayal-of-jesus.html
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2011/08/15/110815fa_fact_lizza?currentPage=all
http://www.alternet.org/teaparty/151960/michele_bachmann_was_inspired_by_my_dad_and_his_christian_reconstructionist_friends_--_here%27s_why_that%27s_terrifying/?page=entire
http://www.bartdehrman.com/curriculum.htm
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/8007
http://www.alternet.org/belief/152564/conservatives_want_america_to_be_a_%22christian_nation%22_--_here%27s_what_that_would_actually_look_like/?page=entire
I was raised a Mormon. The concept of 'Lying for the Lard' is well known among the community of former Mormons I correspond with.
ReplyDeleteThe Mormon church is an organisation and/or belief system (I call it a cult) that believes that the ends justify the means. So if the truth of their beliefs or history causes them shame or makes them look bad, twisting the facts to 'promote the Lord's kingdom' is what you do.
Here's an interesting link discussing this practice:
http://www.pfo.org/decepton.htm
European Watcher
(former Morman, raised in the American West, now living in Europe)
Why do ex-Mormons call Mormonism a cult? Here's one man's letter (not mine) to James Fallows, who has written (in The Atlantic) that Romney's Mormonism shouldn't be a factor in the election.
ReplyDeleteDear Mr. Fallows,
I've long followed and respected your work, but I don't think you would come to the judgment below about Mormonism if you had taken your family into the LDS church as hopeful "converts," decided after some half-dozen years that the church wasn't what it claimed to be and was casuing you more stress than joy, and then discovered to your horror that you couldn't get your family out; that now your marriage, your relationships with your children, were all in jeopardy. There is no simple walking away:
"Reduced to its basics, the 'Mormon Question' is whether the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, with some 15 million members worldwide and about half that number in the United States, is this kind of presumptively disqualifying organization. It is embarrassing to have to say this, but I don't think it is." http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2011/11/with-mitts-ascent-were-back-to-the-mormon-question/248552/
The church is a totalitarian, authoritarian, and fundamentalist organization. If Scientology makes you pause and ponder, then the LDS church should as well, mostly because it holds families hostage, making leaving it as a matter of individual conscience an unusually difficult and cruel process for many. I invite you to read the many Ex-Mormon narratives at http://www.exmormon.org or at http://www.postmormon.org.
What has been frustrating in this politcal season, with the publicity around Romney and Huntsman, is the easy way many of my fellow citizens pass tolerant judgment on Mormonism as "just another faith" when their experience of Mormonism is second-hand at best. That was the mistake I made as a non-member "investigating" the church. I really believe that unless one has experienced membership in the church from the inside, and found his or her way out to look upon it anew, that one is severely disadvantaged in seeing the church as just another garden variety, harmless organization in American society.
Thank you for your time!
Link to further discussion: http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,346478,346478#msg-346478
European watcher-former Mormon raised in the US
The Mormon Church also covers a great deal of child abuse. This is the main stream church, not just the more cult like versions. I find it hideous that the major group fighting gay marriage is the group behind so much child abuse.
ReplyDeleteI thought lying was a common "skill" that you had to be proficient at in order to BE a Republican?
ReplyDeleteIf one reads the transcripts of RC miters and red hats at clergy abuse trials, one can find one's head spinning with all the "mental reservation" going on. Trans: LYING TO PROTECT THE CHURCH.
ReplyDeleteBTW, if you ever want to flummox a Mormon (Remember, the second "m" is always silent.), just mention Mountain Meadows. Don't know what it means? Check it out. You'll be stunned.
I'd never heard of the term "lying for the Lord", but evidently a lot of other people have, because when I Googled it, pages upon pages appeared describing it as a tenet of the Mormon faith.
ReplyDeleteI wasn't planning on voting for Romney (or any other GOPster) anyway, but that's just too much. I remember Romney's cruel treatment of that poor family dog...this just slams the door, locks it, and throws away the key.
I lost a lot of regard for the Mormon religion when 1) my husband's nephew cheated on his wife, the mother of his 7 children, and when housesitting for us, invited his girlfriend to visit, and bathe with him in our Jacuzzi unbeknownst to us; and 2) when I read that Mormons from Utah descended in droves on California communities to sway votes to be for Proposition 8, voted on in the November 2008 election.
I'm even more convinced now that the Lord the Mormons lie for isn't Jesus Christ, nor the Lord God, but some other, darker Lord.
A Mormon apologist, speaking to an audience of Mormon students, demonstrates the underpinnings of Lying for the Lord.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1kt8h_robert-millet-short-version_news
He doesn't call it that, of course, and this is an excerpted video (full presentation avaiable), but it's an example of the approach taught institution wide to deceive non-Mormons about the true nature of the organisation. Note in the final seconds: 'We never provide meat, when milk will do,' which is a restatement of the long-time Mormon practice of provide 'milk before meat' in instructing potential converts to this deceptive cult.
Now one could argue that this is what politicians routinely do. That may be so, but this is the deception behind the church that claims to be God's one, true representative on Earth.
European watcher
I have never met a credible Mormon. I spent 7 years as a Boy Scout District Leader AFTER my son became an Eagle Scout and turned 18 ONLY to try to keep the Mormon corruption out of the program. They poison and twist everything they touch.
ReplyDeleteMaybe I just haven't met the right Mormon, but I've met and interacted with several thousand, and not one of those interactions was a completely honest interaction.
I used to be a mormon. I still live in Salt Lake. I could go on for days about the insanity. Of course there are always exceptions, but as a general rule it is best to believe all the crazy stuff you find about mormons on the internet. In all likelihood it is true. The vast majority is put out by former mormons who know what they are talking about. They lived it. It is not put out by other religious groups - honestly, no one else cares.
ReplyDeleteYes, it is a cult just like any other. As with most cults, it started out with them insisting on being separate from the rest. Once they settled in Utah, Brigham Young's plan was to eventually secede from the Union. It never really worked out. Eventually they came to see which side their bread was buttered on - they shaved their beards, started wearing suits and abandoned polygamy in order to gain statehood and they have been working the system ever since.
For a being a religious minority, they have a significant presence in the government. You might be surprised to find how many have been members of congress and cabinet members. Politicians court the mormon hierarchy because they know how to turn out the votes and git 'er done - proposition 8 in California would be a good example. In the 70's they shipped in truckloads of women to vote down the ERA. They have tons of money and power.
You and I see an election. Mormons see fulfillment of prophecy. And they will stop at nothing to force their prophecies into fulfillment (they are under somewhat of a time constraint).
When all the furor was raging over the so-called "Ground Zero Mosque" and all the politicians were being urged to condemn Islam and pledge that there would be no Muslims in their administration, I thought, surely Mitt Romney would say something in sympathy for another persecuted religious minority. But I was wrong. When Romney came out and agreed that Muslims deserved special scrutiny, I realized just how badly he wanted to become president.
He *will* be the Republican nominee. We can only hope that Obama gets re-elected.
I don't know nothing 'bout mormonism, but the few mormons I've dealt with in business were lecherous, lying, manipulative, two faced hypocrites and scum.
ReplyDeleteThere's one, in particular, who tried to corner me while in a hotel on business, needless to say, the magic underwear does not include protection from a well placed female knee, but the guy went from alto to suprano in one second flat, and pretty much kept to himself the rest of his trip, and tenure at the company.
Do I blame that on his religion, or just that he's a hard up asshat? Don't know, don't care.
Mitt's ad, and defense of it, will backfire. If the Repugs are supposed to treat him as a "Chistian", which I doubt they will, this ad just painted all Repugs (and by extension, Christians) as unapologetic liars for the lord.
A concept that's an oxymoron.
I was raised in a devout Mormon family, and was a true believer as a child and young adult. One day I picked up a book called "The Mormon Murders" expecting nothing but the highest levels of integrity from church authorities, to help solve the case and convict the killer.
ReplyDeleteWhat a shock I had. Much like the Vatican, this church will go to any extreme to burnish their prestige and secular image.
The lay church members, the "sheep" can be nice people, but the leadership are "the end justifies the means" players, and as another post eloquently put it, they have been "gaming the system" ever since statehood in the most cynical way.
In spite of his obvious dishonesty and zero empathy for living creatures, expect Mittens to go the distance. He is an excellent representative of his faith; willing to say anything to inch closer to power.