And personally I could not agree more.
Just the other day my daughter and I had a discussion along the same lines.
Right after our divorce my ex-wife suddenly became very religious and joined this weird Fundamentalist church. When the church uprooted and moved to Georgia, she quit her high paying job, sold our house, and followed them.
I could have stopped her from taking my child out of state, but I was afraid that my daughter would grow up resenting me for not allowing her to see her mom. So instead she spent half of her time in Georgia, and the other half up here with me.
For the first three years I had her during the school year, and she attended public school. But when it switched, around the time she was entering the sixth grade, and her mother had her during the school year, her mother suddenly found the schools in Georgia unacceptable, and started to home school my daughter. Of course the materials provided for these classes were supplied by religious publishers.
My daughter, who is brilliant by the way, was inundated with lessons from the Bible and told to view EVERYTHING through the prism of Christianity.
She learned to call the Catholic church a non-Christian cult, that evolution was based on lies, that the world was only 6,000 years old, and that her father was being deceived by the devil.
My daughter has now made a full recovery, but she has often expressed anger that I did NOT save her from being subjected to that indoctrination. In my defense I never had any idea how bad it was, and her mother made sure to keep what was in those text books a secret from me.
When my daughter smuggled one up to Alaska in her luggage, and I read the kind of garbage she was being taught instead of science, and social studies, and history, I quickly took her to the library to get her books with facts in them. Then I started to educate her to see the world around her through the prism of critical thinking.
Later when she realized that getting a certificate of completion from this home school company would never help her in the real world we decided to take her to get her GED while she was up visiting. I am happy to report that she breezed right through it with flying colors in less than a month.
Even though she often asked, I always refused to tell my daughter of my stance on religion. I simply wanted her to find her own way.
I thought I was doing the right thing, but my silence created a void that her mother was quick to capitalize on. And in the absence of any contradictory information my daughter was defenseless.
Right now I am not exactly sure WHAT my daughter's religious beliefs are for sure, though I know they no longer reflect what her mother wanted them to be. But that is okay with me, just as long as her beliefs make her happy and do NOT keep her from maintaining an open mind about the wonders of the world around her.
Growing up I was indoctrinated to beleive that being catholic and american was the penultimate human experience. It took me many years to see beyond what I was brought up to believe and ask difficult questions. See, certain people don't want you to be able to ask questions...you shoul just beleive and follow. Even though as young as 7 I could sense the bullshit, my obedience kept me towing the line.
ReplyDeleteMy life would be diffierent, better in many ways actually, had I not been so indoctrinated.
The best gift I am giving my children is no indoctrination into any religion, just teaching them to be gentle caring humans.
"just as long as her beliefs make her happy" WTF? You need to think about that statement a little more!
ReplyDeleteTeach a child to recognize hypocrisy, and Organized Religion doesn't stand a chance.
ReplyDeleteHey Gryph,
ReplyDeleteThought that was one of your best essays. In a better world (not the one we're in), it would be Reader's Digest worthy.
Religion is just another word for a fantasy based cult. Their central purpose is to drain the financial resources of their cult worshippers, and for the sole benefit of the cult leadership.
Wish it wasn't so, but it is what it is.
Jesse, I've gotta be honest. Sometimes I just can't believe how much alike you are to me. We have identical beliefs about religion; strong ones that occasionally get us in trouble, but we're right. You did the honourable and right thing in bringing up your daughter. In fact; everytime I read posts about your daughter I feel so drawn to you despite the fact you are old enough to be MY father too, although I'm a little older than yours I think ;). You did everything right; it was your wife that did the wrong thing and your daughter undoubtedly sees that now. My parents are non religious (I honestly have no clue what their relationship with any sort of God or not is, we never speak about it) but my Grandparents are Irish Catholic traditionalists (I'm TWO types of heathen in one - Catholic baptised and avowed Atheist!) and my mother a teacher who wanted Catholic
ReplyDeletecred to teach at Catholic schools so mum taught Sunday School and I endured it. Awful times and I think my parents wrong for doing that. It's nothing short of brainwashing. No doubt me and your daughter are alike however and too clever for their tales. I never once bought their stories. In fact I found them laughable and read on to parts that were awful and sounded downright evil. I was a tiny child and I KNEW. Your daughter and myself probably have that in common. When these tales were held up in awe I wondered why everyone couldn't see what I saw and why they were so blind. In Australia, in my parts, the only public schools were not so great (poorer area) so my parents sent me to private school run by fundies. I immediately pegged them as much worse than the Catholics; these people did more than go thru the motions and have quaint little charming rituals like the Catholics seemed to, and had harsh rules and groups that were sinners and all bad, and there was no quaint rituals and kind hearted Australian-Irish Catholic nuns and people like out of the Thornbirds,
but in it's place hatred and loathing and garish crosses which were worth spending thousands of dollars on to prove something to the world instead of say giving it to educating us better or making peoples lives better. That's when I turned from bemused onlooker to becoming very much anti religion.
If you ever come to Australia do contact me. Also do you enjoy YouTube atheism? The set of videos called 'why do people laugh at creationists?' is worth a look and there's many parts now, made by Thunderf00t. Also AronRa is great and many others. Alot of laughs to be had at their expense - for if you feel you need a respite from the awfulness of it all a laugh at them can be good once in a while.
Feel free to email me ;).
We must indoctrinate the children before they're old enough to think.
ReplyDeleteOtherwise they'll see the nonsense for what it is: primitive superstition.
Nothing more, nothing less.
Ahhhh... so that explains the homeschool =/= fundy belief around here.
ReplyDeleteSo let's start any discussion o homeschooling of with a little bit of factual information. Not all parents who homeschool do so or religious reasons.
Some homeschool because of unsafe schools, schools that aren't rigorous enough, health reasons, schools unwillingness to really make special ed accommodations, etc. And or some (us) because while religion isn't allowed in the schools, many areas have a de facto Xtian bias. And no secular kindy kid should be forced to say that under God BS in the pledge on a daily basis. THAT'S indoctrination!
So please, preface your homeschool bashing with religious homeschoolers when that is what you mean, and I'll be happy to bash right along with you.
Carry on.
Thank you for sharing your first hand experience. I winced at the teaching about Catholics as non-christians for I was raised Catholic.
ReplyDeleteThe photo and caption summarizes observations of parents of preschoolers last weekend. One of three sets if parents constantly dictate to their children what they won't like, that food or things are not for them, squash curiosity or willingness to try anything new. Instead of allowinf freedom to try, make their own decision they are ordered what to think and feel. The parents are control freaks, the youngsters trained to be highly manipulative. Asserting themselves they are told they are wrong, the parents are all knowing authority dominating them.
Your point about these zealots who make facts fit, select facts to prove their thoughts are right are unhealthy. First get the facts then formulate an opinion is healthy mental process.
No, it really isn't too much to ask. My husband and I have decided to raise our kids with no religious affiliation, and so far, so good.
ReplyDeleteAnd it was really an easy decision to make when everyone you know who claims to be religious acts like total dicks. I'd rather not be a hypocrite or affiliate with them.
I disagree with you on this. Figuring out how the world works, and what to believe in is one of the more difficult tasks of life. Parents should share their beliefs about the world in ways appropriate to the child's age and circumstances. It can be difficult if the parents have diametrically opposed views, and I would share differently in those circumstances.
ReplyDeleteThere are ways to share what you know/believe without requiring the child to believe it. there are ways to share in ways that encourage and support the child's journey to find out what they believe.
If someone thought they knew the answers to some questions that had not just life-long consequences, but eternity consequences, I can't imagine being quiet with someone I love, and letting them see what they think.
Can you imagine saying - I'm going to let my child figure out sex for themselves, and not give them any guidelines or share any opinions.
Having at least 20 years more life experience, possibly 30 or 40 years, ought to have resulted in something to share to help the child through life's difficult questions and issues. The fact that others might share garbage in response to that question shouldn't hinder me from sharing with my child.
Lucy
I did not leave my child with no instruction.
ReplyDeleteWe had plenty of talks about the difference between right and wrong, and an open dialogue about sex as soon as she started to ask questions.
It was only religion that I wanted to leave up to her.
It is my belief that everybody's journey is unique, and their destination personal.
This Be the Verse
ReplyDeleteBY PHILIP LARKIN
They fuck you up, your mum and dad.
They may not mean to, but they do.
They fill you with the faults they had
And add some extra, just for you.
But they were fucked up in their turn
By fools in old-style hats and coats,
Who half the time were soppy-stern
And half at one another’s throats.
Man hands on misery to man.
It deepens like a coastal shelf.
Get out as early as you can,
And don’t have any kids yourself.
Gryphen, THANK YOU for taking your daughter to get "rill" books to help and encourage her to learn everything.
ReplyDeleteAs for any religion that has to isolate children over "fear" that they maylearn that there are differing opinions....well needless to say they are very suspect in my mind.
My Dad was catholic, my Mom followed her Native American teachings...all 9 of us ( yes we were actually ALL planned)were exposed to both, encouraged to attend other churches with our friends ( if anyone thinks a catholic service is long...attend a Serbian Orthodox one!) and to absorb as much or as little as we wanted from all we were exposed to. And we were ALL encouraged to believe in facts , like science. Education was extremely important in our household and we all went to public school and all went on to enjoy higher education opportunities following a great public school education.
Little Rabbit
Reply to Lucy:
ReplyDeleteLucy, my goodness that's a ridiculous argument to make! Where does one start? Sex is real. Religious ideas are not. You are intentionally putting words in Gryphen's mouth that he didn't say. You teach your child the things they NEED; maths, science, and yes, about sex and safe sex. Teaching them to worship a sky daddy is not related to that, anyone than I can argue Gryphen should hve taught his daughter all about Pastafarianism and his noodliness the flying spaghetti monster.
Do you want every parent in the world to talk thru EVERY religion, including the invisible pink unicorn and how to worship her, and Jedi, and Muslim and.....
A ridiculous argument. No. You want YOUR beliefs imbedded in YOUR childs mind before they have the mental capacity to evaluate it for what it is. In my personal opinion that is a form of child abuse. Emotional abuse. I'm not trying to say you're a bad person for doing so but I think it is a bad thing. When they're old enough, why not discuss it with them then? And tell them they can believe whatever they want to? If you push a bible on a child you are giving them bad information if they are not ready. It contains very real threats that can be traumatising. If you do this you go to hell. No! That is NOT okay. The book is full of threats and bribery and nonsense and evil. It is not a book to give to a child and tell them it's all true. That's dangerous in my opinion.
What anonymous @ 3:03 said. Try being a non-believer in a Catholic school in the 50's where even the priests were afraid of the nuns. I'd like to send the church a bill for all my therapy. There are ample ways to teach children to think and reason and be good people that don't require allegiance to a sky puppet.
ReplyDelete"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you". The Golden Rule is common to the world's religions and is probably the ONLY thing that should be taught to our children.
ReplyDeleteI watched a PBS programme the other night on the eruption of Mt. Vesuvius and the destruction of Pompeii and Herculaneum. It took the form of a docudrama and it was interesting to see the Pompeiians praying to their gods to save them.
Anon @ 5:40 - brilliant poem. thanks.
ReplyDeleteI found my own way out of the box, but it wasn't easy. It start by deciding to read the bible, cover to cover, when I was a teenager. At that point I went, "Wow, there are a lot of horrible, disgusting things in here that I never knew about."
ReplyDeleteI asked my preacher about it, but I just got the usual, "We can't know the understanding of God or his plans, we just have to have faith.", crap.
I started studying different religions when a boy in my son's 'Mother's Morning Out' class died. The religion I was brought up with just wasn't helping me through that crisis.
I had always been told by the church, "Don't look at other religions!" It went in range from, 'They are wrong' to 'It's from the devil'.
While I didn't convert to another religion, I found teachings in some of the ones I studied that helped me. And it helped be break away from the mind set that I was brought up with.
I now consider myself agnostic. I can't quite go atheist, because I have had episodes of synchronicity in my life that I believe may be more than just coincidence.
If there is a higher being, it doesn't need religion.
Teach children to research, question, challenge, present and defend arguments, be self-confident, be self-reliant, be kind.
ReplyDeleteLots of mathematics is not a bad thing either.
Children need many skills to be the leaders because the products of dead-end education (public, private, home-school, no-school) will be people that need leaders.
@Next Chapter "If there is a higher being, it doesn't need religion."
ReplyDeleteI have a Word document titled Sayings I Like. I am going to add your quote to it. Hell, I may even put it at the top of the list.
Try being a non-believer in a Catholic school in the 50's...
ReplyDelete6:34 AM
-----
My Catholic school nuns' goal was to produce a pious, mindless breeder that would slavishly obey a husband (superior by virtue of being male) and all other males. The Catholic doctrine was secondary to getting it through my head that I was to be a wife, mother, servant to the parish. Absolutely nothing else was important. Religious tenets were simply not very important compared with the supreme end-product, a uterus with a cross.
Is it better now than in the 50s? Probably much better disguised and far, far worse.
Just last week my grandson came home with a Bible given to him by his teacher.I then talked to him about how many people regard it as being Holy,but that many people regard it as being a book that is a collection of stories,myths,and fables written by men a long time ago.I told him that the most important thing was to read it if he wants,but to keep an open mind,and remember that no one can show proof of anything in the book,and that many things have been shown to be not miracles,such as locusts destroying all of the grain,causing cattle to die of hunger,then a scourge of flies to come and feed on the cattle,then disease spread by the flies,etc(that was the first one I thought of).
ReplyDeleteYes I contacted the school about.
My first question was if a teacher gives a child a book that contains descriptions of murder,rape,and torture do you approve?
Waiting for an answer.
Gryphen,
ReplyDeleteYou did the right thing by letting your daughter live with her mother when she was young. It would have been far more damaging to her if you had fought her mother on this while she was still so young and impressionable. It takes wisdom and maturity to sometimes go through the short term personal pain for us to better serve the long term best interests of our children. It sounds as though you were doing what you needed to do in order to provide as much emotional stability as you could for your daughter.
I went through something similar with my son. I live in Utah, a hotbed of lunacy. As a single mother, I knew when my son was a child that eventually he would be roped into the Mormon church as a teenager. It happens all the time here. There are a lot of Mormons and the pressure on young people is intense. It happened his junior year in high school. Not only did they convince my son I was evil (you see, Satan controls me too, Gryphen) they convinced him to leave home, have no contact with me, and even convinced him to threaten to turn me in to Child Protective Services for emotional abuse. At one point I tried talking to one of the mothers hoping to appeal to her as a mother herself but reason does not work with these people. (I'm evil you see and they are saving him from me.) When I pointed out that she is actually breaking the law by harboring a runaway she screamed that I was threatening her.
There really was nothing I could do. I could have forced the issue and gone the legal route, but that would have only backfired and turned them into martyrs. I had to ride it out. The one thing I knew is that it would just be a matter of time before my son figured it out. I raised him outside of religion and all his life he saw examples of fine, intelligent, good-hearted people who had no religion. His mother was one of them. And he saw plenty of examples of religious people who were downright assholes.
As he grew up, he figured it out for himself and reclaimed his life. For years he beat himself up for what he put me through. I explained to him many times that this was all part of growing up, that I knew it would happen and had expected it. It is very much part of life, here. Now, as an adult, he faces a similar situation with his own children.
It sounds as though your daughter is still young. As she continues to mature, I hope she will get over her occasional anger about the situation and see it as a life experience that she transcended. No doubt it was painful at times, but she also has a fuller view of religious indoctrination and can now speak from personal experience rather than just spouting opinion or theory. If she is as brilliant as you say (and I'm sure she Is) she will see this. Maybe not until she is a parent herself, but she will see it.
Sounds as though you are a wonderful parent.
My ex and ex-laws tried to indoctrinate my children into a fundamentalist religion.
ReplyDeleteGlad to say both of them were kicked out of Sunday School.
Why? Because they dared to ask question.
I love my guys!
Organized religion is at times crazy and hypocritical. The Bible is not. Sorry, Gryphen, I agree with you on much, but not on this.
ReplyDeleteI have had many discussion with people like yourself. I understand where you are coming from. So many Christian religions ignore the Bible. We won't even get started on Catholicism and its desire to make up their beliefs as they see fit.
But the King James Bible isn't crazy, it is accurate, and it does change lives for the better, if it is followed.
That said, I respect your right to totally think I am a nutcase :)
that must have been even tougher on your daughter since she is gay. the Fundies are not kind to the gay. I am glad she had you for support and acceptance.
ReplyDeleteI am religious, but even I can seperate my faith in god, from my understanding of science..
The King James bible (Cambridge Ed), Exodus 21:7
ReplyDeleteAnd if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do.
What a fine, inspiring thing the King James bible is! This product of England's hatred of Rome still can't quite let go of that inspiring thingy, slavery. The Church of England needed a "better" bible, and cooked up a doozy. It worked well for the kings of England for centuries.
Bible versions are cranked out regularly by assorted religions. Of course, each group thinks their's is best. Same deal with their rituals and laws. It's what keeps the religion industry fresh.
Faith is a beautiful thing. All organized religion is crap.
ReplyDeleteMy parents never indoctrinated me but they just let society and some of the family members that job, it was tough for me to sort out that all religion is myth and there is no god. Parents should inform the children of the diferent doctrines and give them FACTS
ReplyDeleteAnyone who touts the bible as a wonderful guide book likely has not read the filth it holds in words. Interesting that the catholic church "embraces" the bible but outlaws other filthy books.
ReplyDeleteI too am agnostic because I do not presume to know the answers and do not know anyone else who knows the true answers to who and what we are.
I do know that you can never convince me that there is a loving god who cares about us. If so why does that deity allow all the horrors - starvation, disease, rape, beatings, mutilation, terrorism, murder etc. to happen to innocent babies, children and helpless women?
What kind of love is that, that permits the pain and devastation that occurs daily, hourly, to humans?
If we did those things to our children, spouses, offspring, or neighbors then we would be incarcerated or put to death. So how can anyone say they have a loving heavenly father who cares for every hair on their head? Poppyrot!
Again, I do not have the answers and I know that everyone quests for something in their life, from the simplest to the most extravagant wishes, so for some organized religion fills that need.
@2:35pm - there is an explanation for why these things happen in the Bible. Anyone who gives you either a pat, one sentence answer to that, or tells you it is one of the mysteries of life is delusional and not to be taken seriously.
ReplyDeletePersonally, if the Bible were all sunshine and light, with none of the horrors therein, I would have serious doubts about the truthfulness of it. As I mentioned before, the catholic church does not rely on the Bible in any shape or form. They are the first to admit that they can make it up if they please.
I love this post. You really do "get it". We made a conscious choice to not endoctrinate our child in any formal religion. We made the conscious decision to not mutilate our newborn son's genitals. We made the conscious decision to let them learn for themselve which path to take.
ReplyDeleteThis, for the "My Bible is better than, truer than, and the be all and end all of all Bibles, The Catholics make things up as they go along, and my Religion is the best in the world, and all others suck" cultists out there. There are people of all faiths who do no follow all the tenants their faiths demand them to, it doesn't make them "less Christian/Muslim/etc. etc. etc. it's because they realize they can't, in all honesty, possibly pick up a rock and thow it at someone who openly does what they do, but seek forgiveness for. They use biblical terms to justify their own sins (e.g. having a 10 year marriage "annulled" because they were "unevenly yolked" instead of having a sinful d-i-v-o-r-c-e).
And being an atheist doesn't exclude being spiritual and morality just because it's "the right thing to do", and not because some book tells us we must.
Thanks Gryphen, I admire your for your courage and sacrifice for being a good Dad, and for living your truth. I can't speak for your daughter, but I'm sure she feels the same way.
Uncle Gryphen you and I are very much alike in the we also did not indoctrinate our daughter in religion. We taught her right from wrong, and we made all kinds of religious articles from religions all over the world available to her (YES, I also homeschooled our daughter, but she got to choose her religion - which, as of today, I believe is NONE OF THE ABOVE, LOL! She dabbled a bit in Wicca, is fascinated by Buddhism, has read the bible and quite a bit (if not all) of the Quoran. She is a very well rounded young lady, just like your daughter also, too.
ReplyDeleteI read all posts but almost never comment... this time I have something to share...
ReplyDeleteTo this day, with 42 years of age, I do not know for which political party my mother votes... the only hint she ever gave me is that she votes for candidates and not for a particular party. Her argument is that she did not want to have ME follow her political view for no other reason that is it HER political view....
BUT this is the same woman that raised me in the full blown indoctrination of the roman catholic church, catholic school, the full enchilada... I resent this so very much... And for as much as I would like to blame her for a guilt-ridden uprising, it was probably beyond her to do anything but.
It is just sad that she was such good logic for politics but it was beyond her to to the same with religion....
"Faith is a beautiful thing."
ReplyDeleteUh, no. Pitiful, more like it. Stubborn and blind sometimes, too.
@msles59130
ReplyDeleteI happen to have read the Bible in its entirety in my native langage, translated by a team of protestant, orthodox and catholic scholars. It's called the TOB translation, it has a wikipedia page even. Granted, their translation of the Old Testament is subject to caution, since after all it is the Holy book of Jusdaism, written by and for Jews - but to the point, I think this modern translation is way better than your King James.
I have gone to catholic church as a child and as an adult I've taken my kids to some masses to let them know what religion was, and how it felt. Nothing that I ever heard there was in any disagreement with the New Testament - of which, I suppose you ignore that, actual parts are read to the congregation each and every week.
Your attack on catholicism "making things up" on the Bible is just plain bigoted.
@Anita Winecooler
ReplyDeleteI agree, it is morality that we have to teach our children.
And if morality has nowadays somewhat permeated religion, it's not because religious books define morality.
Reading the Old Testament is very eyes-opening on that matter : it does contain genocide in the name of God, ordered by God, and making God happy ; and God being unhappy and vengeful because one city that should have been "given to him" (as in men, women, children, animals, everything slaughtered) had been only pillaged, with the living spared. It's chilling.
Morality exists in today's religious teachings because the faithfull have been cherry-picking what was moral out of the mass of things their Holy Books contain.
Modern non-genocidal non-murderous Christians discard some parts of the Bible as being not to be followed. Fundies hate that. Cherry-picked moral parts won't let them murder their opponents, nor oppress women, nor hate on gays...
Muslims, like Christians, have to cherry-pick their way through their Holy book. That doesn't make them any less good followers of their religion.