Saturday, January 28, 2012

The Romney family converted Mitt's atheist father-in-law to Mormonism, AFTER he died. How incredibly disrespectful!

"Oh you may not be a member of our church right now, but you can't live forever."
Courtesy of Gawker:

Gawker's substantial Mormon readership has come through for us: Two readers have sent us confirmation that Edward Davies, Mitt Romney's militantly atheist father-in-law, was indeed posthumously converted to Mormonism by his family, despite the fact that when he was alive he regarded all religions as "hogwash." 

As we mentioned yesterday, Ann Romney's Welsh-born father (who Mitt mentioned in last night's debate to shore up his pro-immigrant bona fides) was an engineer, inventor, and resolute atheist who disdained all organized religion and raised his children accordingly. Davies, his son Roderick told the Boston Globe in 2007, regarded the faithful as "weak in the knees." But when Mitt began seeing Davies' daughter Ann, the Romney family launched a concerted effort to convert not only Ann but her entire family to Mormonism. And they were wildly successful: Within a year of meeting Ann, Mitt and his father had converted all three of Edward Davies' children. Days before she died in 1993, Ann Romney's mother asked to be converted as well. Edward Davies was the only member of his clan whose soul the Romneys never claimed for their church. 

Until he died. According to this entry in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints' genealogical database, Davies was baptized as a Mormon at a "special family meeting" 14 months after his death: "All ordinances except sealing to spouse performed in Salt Lake Temple on 19 Nov 1993 in special family meeting," the entry says. (When we previously asked the church whether Davies had been baptized, a spokesperson told us that the information was available only to his family and church members. But it's apparently right there on the internet for those who know what to look for.)

Look I know I have taken some heat for being a little judgmental when it comes to religions, but does ANYBODY feel this is okay?

I am not completely insensitive and understand how people of a certain faith may worry that their loved ones will not share eternity with them if they are not saved or baptized into their belief system, but I can see no way that this is a reasonable response to that fear.

Besides is it not usually considered too late once the person has shuffled off this mortal coil?

Well not according to the Mormons:

Because all who have lived on the earth have not had the opportunity to be baptized by proper authority during life on earth, baptisms may be performed by proxy, meaning a living person may be baptized in behalf of a deceased person. Baptisms for the dead are performed by Church members in temples throughout the world. People have occasionally wondered if the mortal remains of the deceased are somehow disturbed in this process; they are not. The person acting as a proxy uses only the name of the deceased. To prevent duplication the Church keeps a record of the deceased persons who have been baptized. Some have misunderstood that when baptisms for the dead are performed the names of deceased persons are being added to the membership records of the Church. This is not the case.

Okay that just creeps me out!

It feels like some religious necrophilia or something.

By the way, the Mormons have also been in trouble for doing this to others, INCLUDING dead Jewish Holocaust victims.

Alright go ahead.  Tell me I am too sensitive, or that it is no big deal. I dare you.

103 comments:

  1. Anonymous4:32 PM

    I have never heard of anyone doing this. I agree that it is disrespectful. He obviously was not what the man wanted or else he would have taken action when was alive.

    ReplyDelete
  2. WakeUpAmerica4:39 PM

    I think it is egregious in its arrogance to usurp the name and memory of someone in the name of your own religion. I don't care what religion it is, mine or someone elses. It shows a complete lack of respect for the person AND for God's intent to give us free choice over our lives.

    ReplyDelete
  3. Must have had an extra pair of their magic underware.

    ReplyDelete
  4. I'm Jewish and have long been aware of the nasty little habit of the LDS to baptise Jews after their deaths. Particularly those who were murdered in the Holocaust.

    I suppose the prevailing sentiment of the LDS is that if you can't get 'em while they're living, get 'em when they're dead. It must be a lot easier than toiling in the vineyards of France trying to make live conversions.

    ReplyDelete
  5. Not at all, Jesse. I agree that it is pretty creepy.

    ReplyDelete
  6. Anonymous4:51 PM

    You mean they prayed away the atheist?

    ReplyDelete
  7. Grey Lensman.4:53 PM

    After all.. both are just hocus-pocus.

    ReplyDelete
  8. Balzafiar4:55 PM

    In my view it isn't a big deal. They have their beliefs, I have mine. Since I don't subscribe to their beliefs or practices, anything they may do isn't going to affect me.

    Even if they somehow decide to "baptize" me after I'm gone, it isn't going to affect me or my future self in any way.

    ReplyDelete
  9. Anonymous4:56 PM

    I agree its creepy as all get out,but no more strange than eating a cracker because you believe it is the flesh of Christ,or drinking some grape juice and believing you are drinking blood.Unless you think religious vampires and cannibals are less strange.

    ReplyDelete
  10. Anonymous4:58 PM

    Look on the bright side: Now you don't have to join a church or go to services or be dunked in a river or anything. Just wait until after you're dead! In the meantime, party party party!

    It reminds me of the late great Mike Royko, who said he didn't have to worry about praying because he was always getting letters from his critics that read "I'm praying for your soul." OK, Royko said, then I don't need to waste time praying.

    Now if you'll excuse me, I have to build a fire for our worshippewrs to dance around tonight, and gather some mistletoe.

    Tom, in FL

    ReplyDelete
  11. Anonymous4:59 PM

    It probably keeps them busy converting all the heathens who existed before their religion even came to be.

    ReplyDelete
  12. Atheists for jesus5:01 PM

    So I'm speculating that they also went ahead and tithed the required 10% of his estate to the cult also too. It only seems fair. Also mittens accounts in the Caymans.The elders will be so proud.

    ReplyDelete
  13. Anonymous5:02 PM

    OT but you will enjoy

    I just read this on Little Green Footballs

    "Some D.C.-based establishment types were preparing to reconcile themselves to former House Speaker Gingrich, if not outright endorse him, before or after the South Carolina primary last week. But according to one such insider, who asked not to be identified because of her prominent corporate lobbying role, Gingrich fatally said on Jan. 18 — three days before the primary — that he would offer former Alaska Governor Sarah Palin a “major role in the next administration if I’m president.” That one statement scared the accept-Newt, Republican-establishment types. “That sure did it for me, and I think for a lot of other people in town,” the lobbyist said."

    ReplyDelete
  14. Anonymous5:04 PM

    Converting people after they are dead and cannot object is one of the reason Mormans tend to be disliked and looked on with suspicion.

    Dead is dead as for as I am concerned, but doing that is horrible disrespectful, and frankly insulting.
    And,of course, totally ineffective.

    ReplyDelete
  15. angela5:04 PM

    Supposedly they also got President Obama's mother posthumously.

    Extremely creepy . . . .

    Even though I don't believe in an afterlife I swear I'd
    find a way to reanimate, come back from the dead and kick some ass if I ended up in any religious rolls.

    ReplyDelete
  16. Anonymous5:05 PM

    You care about THIS but not that the PResident you passionately defend despite lies had a preacher who cursed America?

    What's wrong with you?

    ReplyDelete
  17. WakeUpAmerica5:13 PM

    To be fair, the LDS Church agreed to stop baptizing deceased Jews some time ago.

    ReplyDelete
  18. Anonymous5:13 PM

    As though any of this obsessiveness does any good for a departed soul. People can be so myopic. I call this sort of thinking 'Religious legalese'.
    M from MD

    ReplyDelete
  19. Anonymous5:13 PM

    Well, if there is no god, and baptism doesn't mean anything, who cares if Mormons want to baptize someone after he's dead? Do you think the dead guy cares? By the way, I might volunteer to be baptized by Mormons after I'm dead! (Just in case.)

    ReplyDelete
  20. Anonymous5:14 PM

    Yes, this is creepy. I had heard of this happening, but I assumed the deceased were members of their immediate blood family, not strangers or in-laws, especially when the person was clear about their ideology.

    ~physicsmom

    ReplyDelete
  21. Anonymous5:17 PM

    This is like when a person says: "Under no circumstances do I want an open casket at my wake and funeral!", and then the family doesn't honor the deceased's wishes. Just like that... but times a thousand. Unreal.

    ReplyDelete
  22. Sally in MI5:18 PM

    This is creepy and disrespectful. Infant baptism creeps me out too. And I'm sure Santorum is all for that as well. I was sprinkled as a baby in a Catholic church to appeaase my Dad's parents. When he moved to Ohio after he and my mom married, he never set foot in a Catholic church. My mom never converted. My grandma took me and my sister to a Church of Christ, and I was baptized again at 12 after comfirmation classes. They baptized babies too, but would not accept my Catholic papers. I mean , it's all one God isn't it?
    But this taking over of people after they are gone is the limit. Mitt will never be President. Neither will serial cheater and HUGE liar Gingrich. Obama will win reelection, have a Democratic Congress working woth him, and the country will return to normal at last, We'll set the table for Liz Warren in 2016, and MAYBE, see the end of the GOP nonsense.

    ReplyDelete
  23. Anonymous5:19 PM

    Very creepy and like something a cult would do!!

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Anonymous4:41 PM

      Sure sounds like a lot of "VOO-DOO" to me. Heck they can't even let the dead, RIP.

      Delete
  24. Anonymous5:20 PM

    I wonder what fee the church collects for this postmortem salvation. Does the Bible provide guidance in this or can anybody simply make up the rules as they go along. Morons!

    ReplyDelete
  25. sewnup5:25 PM

    Beyond disgusting. This whole business is the reason they are all genealogists; they're collecting names for their stables...ugh. Among my ancestors alone they have "baptized" an Amish bishop, several German Baptist ministers, and 4 Baptist ministers. Are we to believe these men believed they "have [had] not had the opportunity to be baptized by proper authority"? Totally disrespectful of all persons, dead or otherwise. And it's only one of the many Mormons' incomprehensible ideas that passes for a "religion"' they have more where that came from.

    ReplyDelete
  26. Anonymous5:26 PM

    As an atheist I think all the rites and rules of most religions are so far beyond reality they are not worth thinking about. As a child I was always horrified at the idea of confession in the RC church. Imagine telling all those dirty little secrets to a priest supposedly sworn to celibacy. I don't see a lot of difference between the religion that suggests prior marriages are invalid because they weren't performed in the "one true church" and the religion that gives one a "path back to God" after death. 2nd chance to see the light.

    Sad that the separation of church and state doesn't hold up during elections. There are many many more important issues than the crazy religious rites of the candidates' religions of choice/birth. I tend to prefer someone who stays with their religion of birth rather than shopping around for a better option.

    As President Obama will win 4 more years against either of the front runners tis all somewhat irrelevant.

    ReplyDelete
  27. Anonymous5:34 PM

    Absolutely OUTRAGEOUS! What an underhanded thing to do when the man clearly lived his life as a person who did NOT agree with the LDS religious idea and then to ambush him spiritually like that...lower than low.

    ReplyDelete
  28. What are the burial "rules" for Mormons?

    My thought is that perhaps the family converted him so they could all be buried together?

    But, I can not imagine a more aggregious display of disrespect for your father's wishes and beliefs. It's as if you nullified his entire belief system in his life b/c of something YOU wanted.

    It's beyond Selfish;

    I can't really even think of a word to articulate it...

    Heinous?

    ReplyDelete
  29. Anonymous5:37 PM

    I used to be Mormon and have even done one of these ceremonies. They do it under the guise of saving these souls of the dead. That when they die and go to heaven, maybe they haven't heard of the "gospel". So they baptize the souls of the dead just in case they accept the "gospel" in the afterlife. I find it extremely creepy that I even found such a thing plausible. In the defense of the truly believing Mormons, they really do believe they are doing a decent thing - saving these dead souls. The thing I don't get is that - it is done for those who died who may not have heard of the "gospel". This man clearly was exposed to it and still refused to accept it's basis. Wow. Still mind boggling to me.

    ReplyDelete
  30. junasie145:38 PM

    "Disrespectful" is an understatement. This practice not only assumes that other religious beliefs are invalid, but it is downright delusional to believe that anyone has the right to act in the name of a dead person and then believe that they have actually converted that person to another faith.

    The practice by some Mormon groups of "converting" Holocaust victims without even attempting to contact their decedents, is a good example of this. Knowing that they were murdered solely for being Jewish, it is like saying their soles needed to be saved from the very thing that was used to justify killing Jews for centuries.

    It is ironic that while claiming to have great respect for the Jewish religion, the Mormons who defended this practice took no notice of the commandment in the Torah that prohibits attempting to contact the dead. I would venture to guess that such prominent Jews as Rashi, Maimonides, Albert Einstein, Menachem Begin, Irving Berlin, Marc Chagall, and Gilda Radner would all be surprised to find themselves on the rolls of vicariously baptised Mormons.

    ReplyDelete
  31. Anonymous5:42 PM

    I too feel this practice is very disrespectful. I have several Mormons in my family and I suspect they have baptized their uncle-my grandfather as well as my nephew-their third cousin. Since I do not believe the Mormon faith I decided these baptisms have no power over any of us and therefore I disregard what I consider to be this rude and disrespectful practice.

    I am also bothered that only recently (1978) they changed their view that black, yellow, brown skin does not reflect the stain of sin. This recent discrimination is too fresh for me.

    Finally, when I see Mittens constantly,and effortlessly lie day after day, I am reminded that Mormons believe lies for good reasons are ok.

    I don't think they are a cult, but I definitely have some trust and mutual respect issues with the Mormon faith.

    ReplyDelete
  32. Anonymous5:43 PM

    Not too sensitive at all.

    Mormonism is a tax exempt CULT in some peoples view.

    Don't even ask the details of the magic underwear.

    Then there is that "peculiar practice" that led some Mormons to flee to Mexico rather than let the laws of the United States interfere with their practice of polygamy.

    ReplyDelete
  33. So, help me out here.... I was baptized catholic, so now I'm dead and partying with the family in the catholic lounge in the here-after. Some crack pot Mormon decides they wanna claim my soul for their church's head count. Does that mean the bouncers of heaven come and drag my sorry self off to the Mormon sitting room to spend eternity in magic underwear? In the meantime, my loved ones are drinking my share of the coffee and whiskey while I'm stuck with orange juice? I'm scared, hold me.

    ReplyDelete
  34. Anonymous5:46 PM

    OT - Just saw Palin on Judge Jeanine and it was priceless! Palin was blabbering on and on, as usual, and Judge cut her off right in mid sentence and said they had to go. The look of SP's face was PRICELESS! More people need to cut off more often.

    ReplyDelete
  35. Anonymous5:47 PM

    Hey 5:05 Is that you Bible Spice? Can't get over Jeremiah Wright but got prayed over by a "pastor" to be protected from witchcraft and need a prayer card to pray? Now that is just as crazy to me.

    ReplyDelete
  36. Anonymous5:50 PM

    Freaks!!!!!It just shows how ppl think they are right and everybody else is wrong especiallyu about religion. You are supposed to compy with the dead persons wishes. I think all these wierd ppl and religions should be investigated to see how bad they all are.

    ReplyDelete
  37. "does ANYBODY feel this is okay?"

    I'm with Balzafiar. It's selfish and creepy but OK in the sense that it was meaningless to the deceased victim and to God.

    With a dad like that, Ann Romney may be more interesting than I'd thought.

    ReplyDelete
  38. I was raised in the "cult" of Mormonism and was baptized for dead people when I was just 12-years-old. I view this now as child abuse. Totally creepy.

    Joseph Smith was a complete fraud, as are all the Repub wannabe Presidential candidates.

    Obama landslide in November!!! And Democratic Congressional landslide!

    ReplyDelete
  39. Anonymous5:57 PM

    To be fair, the LDS Church agreed to stop baptizing deceased Jews some time ago.

    5:13 PM
    ------------------

    If I remember correctly they did agree to stop 'officially' baptizing deceased Jews but the practice was still continued more silently by certain people in their church. Once they were found out 'again', they were told again to stop.

    ReplyDelete
  40. Anonymous6:00 PM

    @WakeUpAmerica:

    The Mormon Church has agreed to stop baptizing non-believers, especially Jews, numerous times- the most recent I think in 1996 and the early 2000s, but they always continued the practice. Most who have complained feel it's disrespectful to the families, and belittles other faiths.

    COalmostNative

    ReplyDelete
  41. Atheists for jesus6:00 PM

    If the mormons can baptize me after I'm dead I think I'd like to file a lawsuit in advance for invasion of privacy and general annoyance factor. Only seems fair. Salt Lake if you're listening, I'd be willing to settle for somewhere north of half a mil.

    ReplyDelete
  42. Anita Winecooler6:01 PM

    The Mormon Church actually had to come out with a statement that this practice would no longer be done.

    It's nasty, sick, disrepectful,revolting, creepy, and a disgrace. I see it as abuse of corpse in that it goes against the person's wishes who doesn't have the power to consent to it.

    OT John McCain's opposition research on Romney in 2008

    http://www.scribd.com/doc/78582788/McCain-2008-Oppo-File

    Wonder when President Obama's oppo research vs. McCain (and Screech) will be uncovered?

    ReplyDelete
  43. Re 4:59
    It probably keeps them busy converting all the heathens who existed before their religion even came to be.

    __________________

    I have a friend who is Mormon and she gave me a copy of their Bible...sadly I gave it to someone who lost it. I read 100 pages or so and a lot of the information is stories from the Bible, but as though recalled by a 12 year old. Terrible grammar, I was shocked that anyone in that religion couldn’t see that. So I imagine most of the follower are uneducated.

    I asked her at one point, about the souls of people who had not ever met Jesus Christ. Why would they go to hell if they never got to know he existed? And her argument was that they baptise the dead to address that. I never gave it much thought, just try to accept her for who she is. She taught me so valuable things when I was young.

    But, seriously, how could anyone truly think they had that kind of power over others? That it's okay to do whatever you damn well please with other people’s eternities...

    And from what I read, the founder of Mormonism was pretty much an ignorant idiot. How he ever got so many followers is beyond belief, but men wanting more than one wife may have been enough to get it off the ground, then you just keep everyone else stupid.

    ReplyDelete
  44. Anonymous6:07 PM

    When Mormons defend this, they ALWAYS use the same language. That's CREEPY. Obviously they have a whole spiel that they go through...

    ReplyDelete
  45. junasie146:08 PM

    Forgot the add: The idea that the Romney family would have their own father converted knowing full well he did not want this, shows the same kind of arrogance and disdain for other beliefs as those who baptized Jews who died in the Holocaust. I wonder what Mitt thinks about this practice, and how he justifies what was done in his own family. It takes a certain kind of mindset.

    ReplyDelete
  46. Anonymous6:09 PM

    Well, it's not as creepy as bringing a dead fetus home for the siblings to play with.

    ReplyDelete
  47. This is way beyond disrespectful; this is sheer arrogance.

    How can anybody justify making religious decisions for anyone else, living or dead, and particularly for those who have expressed clear intent to not be associated with this group. Truly astounding.

    ReplyDelete
  48. This is all true. All of it. I lived next to a Stake House (regional church) when I went to high school in Utah. I had to take a Seminary class (Doctrines and Covenants, aka "D&C"). And yes, Mormons baptize the dead. Every day. I felt the way you do now when I first learned of it.

    One of the main reasons the Davies (most of them, anyway) may have converted to the LDS church is that they'd never get to see their daughter married / sealed to Mitt in a Temple Ceremony. Temple Garments are worn for the Sealing; a conventional wedding dress is not necessary.

    They'd also be shunned as "Gentiles" (non-Mormons), even though they're Ann's family, and would effectively "lose" contact with their daughter unless they converted. They wouldn't be able to have a relationship with their own grandchildren. Welcome to the LDS church!

    Temple Marriage / sealing is only for the most faithful of all LDS members (and only for those who have properly tithed). I knew of a young man who was denied access to marriage in a Temple Ceremony because his fiance's family had not "properly tithed". Until those funds were received, no Temple Ceremony. His and his brides eternity were at stake. Fortunately, the young mans family paid for his brides families tithes, and they finally got their Temple Ceremony.

    If that is not extortion, I don't know what is. And baptizing the dead? It's done to increase "membership"... oh, yeah - and to "save souls...."

    - KAO

    ReplyDelete
  49. Anonymous6:18 PM

    Mormons gave up polygamy. They'll give up baptizing the dead if someone makes it worth it. Basically LDS is a mechanism for extracting money from the faithful. Similar to SarahPAC.

    ReplyDelete
  50. Anonymous6:23 PM

    I find this despicable, PROFOUNDLY disrespectful and horrifically vile. They have utterly violated this man's soul.

    ReplyDelete
  51. Anonymous6:25 PM

    Angela said:
    "Supposedly they also got President Obama's mother posthumously. Extremely creepy . . . ."

    I have heard this same 'creepy' thing -- and although I am not sure of the validity, I do honestly believe they did.

    I know they do this all the time, and usually it is younger children ( maybe 10 and older - not adults), who actually go in groups to be 'baptised for the dead' - a big deal for them. Most of them are too young to realize what is going on, even though they have all been baptised at the age of 8 years old.

    Even just as 'creepy', they also 'marry' couples in the Temple, who have never been through and/or married there. After my Mother died, my brother & sister, along with a few of their family members as witnesses or whatever, went through the whole marriage ceremony in the Temple, in the names of our parents.

    Being the 'black sheep' (totally agnostic) of the family, I had no part of it -- even if I could have, I would not do that. Not just anyone can go thru the Temple (that is when and where the magical underwear comes in -- not just anybody is supposed to wear them, if they have not been 'endowed' and allowed to go thru the Temple).

    Just thought I would add my 2¢ worth -- Have a nice weekend.

    ReplyDelete
  52. sewnup6:30 PM

    Wake up America said: "To be fair, the LDS Church agreed to stop baptizing deceased Jews some time ago."

    True enough: they agreed to but they are still doing it; they simply don't make the information public anymore on paperwork (or Family Search). But some genealogy info given to me recently by a relative whose son, a Mormon, gave to her includes the notations for several such ceremonies dated Nov 2010.

    I'm old enough to remember when the Supreme Court (1970s?) forced the Elk's Club to treat blacks more squarely or face taxation and the sudden Mormon announcement of a "revelation from God" that it would now be OK for blacks to enter the Mormon priesthood, apparently fearing the church would get the Elk's Club treatment. Big of God to let 'em off the hook like that. Guess the money meant more to them than their longstanding bigotry.

    Well, maybe Carl Sagan, Pope John Paul II, William Shakespeare, my several grandpas and all the others so treated may just decide to haunt these nuts someday; that'd be a nice surprise. Maybe they could get God to make another revelation for the occasion....

    ReplyDelete
  53. Anonymous6:31 PM

    Poor Mormon's are fanatical about conversions: they seem to count the converts that their young missionaries chalk up. It's not unlike the "sales rah-rah meetings" that Amway uses to keep their member motivated.

    So, someone got the great idea of adding converts by baptising the dead... can we see the number on the high total board? 20M and going faster than the birth rate, wow.

    So, I really don't see why they can convert the unborn... maybe convert all sperm as a potential being that gets aborted through inaction of the holy penis maybe. Hmm...

    Anyway, be kind to the fanatical believer: thet *really* know not what they do.

    ReplyDelete
  54. Anonymous6:33 PM

    Call to the house: what is "spousal sealing"? The article refers to it as apparently the only thing not included in the necro-baptism.

    Can't help imagining an "Animal House" style toga party.

    Please help.
    Wild Heathen Tortoise

    ReplyDelete
  55. Anonymous6:38 PM

    Sarah's back to looking like crap again...poor woman can't even put a straight part in her dirty hair.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXsMf6OqEvQ&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL

    ReplyDelete
  56. Baptizing the dead would be disgusting if there were actual competing areas of residence in heaven and they were robbing the dead person of going to his/her chosen place for eternity. But there's no actual effect. It's just a superstitious, rude display of superiority similar to proselytizing.

    I wonder if the practice is done for selfish reasons. Perhaps capturing dead souls elevates a Mormon's place in eternity in the same manner as bearing multiple children.

    ReplyDelete
  57. Anonymous6:43 PM

    Well known fact they baptize this way, and dead babies get their own planet.

    ReplyDelete
  58. Mormon Is Ummm6:54 PM

    If people knew more about Mormons, Romney would NEVER have gotten this far.

    FACT: Adolf Hitler was "baptized" and "endowed" by the Mormon Church on December 10, 1993 and "sealed" to his parents on March 12, 1994. These events took place in the London Temple, England.

    Hitler was "sealed" to Braun on September 28, 1993, in the Jordan River Temple, Utah, and on June 14, 1994, in the Los Angeles Temple.

    ReplyDelete
  59. Tyroanee6:57 PM

    Happens all the time, even in my family... in fact my uncle tried to stop his fathers remains from being cremated by the Neptune Society.
    My biggest joy was having the ceremony on our farm and then taking his remains with my grandmothers and releasing them out to sea... I told my uncle that THEIR request was to be honored and not overrode by a man that wears magic undies.
    Needless to say my uncle and don't speak to one another anymore. But every-time I go to that spot in the ocean, I know it was the ultimate sacrifice to honor their wishes and lose a family member.
    Peace

    ReplyDelete
  60. If you think this is creepy and outrageous, just wait. If Willard is the nominee, the superpacs, with their millions, will expose ALL this cult's asinine "beliefs." He'll become a huge laughingstock.

    And remember: the second "m" is silent.

    ReplyDelete
  61. Nikogriego7:04 PM

    "Mormons believe that the dead can achieve salvation through proxy baptisms, and this accounts for their keen interest in genealogy. If dead souls accept the invitation to become Latter-day Saints, they can be united with their families in the hereafter. “Baptism for the Dead is one of the most appealing doctrines there is,” Stephen Covey told me. “How can you possibly reconcile the justice of God with the idea that only through Christ can you be saved? Most of the world lives and dies and never even hears of Christ. There has to be some mechanism set up for all those who have ever lived to have an opportunity to hear of Christ.” In practice, teen-agers line up in the temple to be baptized as proxies for dead people whose names appear on a computer screen. “We also have people who are called ‘extraction missionaries,’ ‘’ Elbert Peck, the former editor and publisher of the Mormon intellectual magazine Sunstone, told me. “They basically go to their little stake center and sit down at a microfilm machine and take these names and put them into our computer database.” According to Richard E. Turley, Jr., the managing director of the Family and Church History Department, in Salt Lake City, as many as two hundred million dead people have been baptized as Mormons, including Buddha and all the popes, Shakespeare, Einstein, and Elvis Presley—what Peck dismissively calls “celebrity work for the dead.” In the early nineties, some Mormons were moved to baptize victims of the Holocaust. The practice caused a great deal of friction with Jewish genealogists, who now monitor Mormon baptismal lists to make sure that Jews are not included."

    The New Yorker had a great in depth article about the Mormons in 2002. Check it out:

    http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2002/01/21/020121fa_FACT1?currentPage=1

    ReplyDelete
  62. Mormon Is Ummmm7:06 PM

    WakeupAmerica at 5:13 said:
    "To be fair, the LDS Church agreed to stop baptizing deceased Jews some time ago."

    Never mind "fair" ... to be ACCURATE: Yes, "the LDS agreed to stop baptizing deceased Jews" ...

    But it was later discovered that the LDS church LIED.

    In fact, they continued the practice of baptising Jews despite signing an agreement they would stop.

    The full story:

    http://www.avotaynu.com/mormon.htm

    ReplyDelete
  63. Anonymous7:07 PM

    We good little Catholics, in the 50's, were told things like: if you come upon a car accident, and the people look like they're dying, use ditch water if need be to baptize them so they'll go to Heaven. To my question of what happens if they don't die? Can they go back to being Protestants? ... crickets. The Mormon thing, tho, is beyond belief.

    ReplyDelete
  64. That's creepy and crazy. If someone wants to convert to the religion of their choice,peachy fine.To "convert" someone after they have died(especially when they were totally against said religion) is sick and shows a complete lack of respect for that person. Guess they love their religion more then they loved their own father/father-in-law.I guess this,and tons of donated church money,gets ol'Willard closer to his own Mormon planet after he dies?

    ReplyDelete
  65. To Wild Heathen Tortoise @ 6:33PM

    When you are married in a Temple Ceremony, you are married not only for your time spent here on Earth, but also for all of eternity, aka "Spousal Sealing." If you're dead, you can't have a Temple Sealing Ceremony for you and your spouse. It can only happen together, in your Earthly lifetime.

    You can also have your children Sealed to you, so all of you can be together in whichever Heaven / Planet (yes, not a typo - PLANET) your good works on Earth have gotten you into - that is, if you're a man. If you're a woman, you go where your man goes. A womans ticket into the Mormon version of Heaven is through her man, and ONLY through a man as his wife.

    Supposedly, a single woman cannot enter any Kingdom / Planet of an LDS Heaven - that's why women agreed to plural marriage back when (and still do). The Mormons are still a super-duper Patriarchal church.

    KAO

    ReplyDelete
  66. FEDUP!!!7:28 PM

    I remember reading about this years ago, and it creeped me out then, and it still creeps me out now! Who-so-ever attempts to do something like that to me posthumously will forever roast in hell - that is my solemn oath!

    ReplyDelete
  67. Aha! I figured it out! This is where zombies come from! No wonder their all so pissed!

    ReplyDelete
  68. Anonymous7:36 PM

    6:38 gave us:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXsMf6OqEvQ&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL

    Go right to the last minute guys for your weekend treat! Hilarious slam to Sarah. Wonder what prompted JJ to go after Sarah but I bet Sarah was calling central office as soon as Todd turned off the camera!

    ReplyDelete
  69. Anonymous7:42 PM

    Thank you, Katie Annie Oakley, for the info on "spousal sealing"!

    Wildly Relieved (but not really) Tortoise

    ReplyDelete
  70. Anonymous8:26 PM

    The Mormons have every right to pursue their own belief system – to the extent to which they do not seek to impose it on others, either now or post-humously. However, when a Mormon tells you how big their church membership is, remember to ask: "dead or alive?" As for the thought that the dead people are already dead, and therefore none of this really matters, then why do we have laws forbidding people from robbing graves or committing other despicable acts against dead bodies? JMO, but if we can't respect the dead, how can we truly respect the living, particularly the weakest among the living?

    Then ask yourself: if people will manipulate in ways that are as silly and tasteless as this about matters of the unseen world, or where they think no one else is looking, to what degree will they manipulate with respect to the seen world – where issues of money, power, position, vengeance, political influence, emotional domination, and financial control are all at stake??

    ReplyDelete
  71. I'm a born again Christian by choice, not through or by anybody else. This is why Mormons are consider a cult, by many Christian, but that their choice. God is Pro-choice, Yes, He tell us to preach the Gospel of Christ, but we can not force anyone to be saved, it a choice. When a person is die, that it, there no turning back. Baptism don't save anybody, you down as a dry sinner and come up as a wet sinner... salvation come by accepting Christ as your Saviour and repentance and having a personal relationship with God. I don't even believe in baptisting babies, they can not make any decision on their own. In the church I used to attend, we baptist children who old enough to make the decision to follow Christ on their own. The same with communion, it is a choice.

    Batisting the dead mean nothing, but people getting wet...

    ReplyDelete
  72. Anonymous8:39 PM

    Okay, stop and think about it. To be logical (to them), they would have had to have post-humously baptized Jesus, Mary, Joseph, all the apostles (including Paul), Adam and Eve, all the Old Testament patriarchs, King David, etc. It just gets sillier and sillier. Okey dokey: so, does that mean that Judas and Goliath were Mormons?????? Are Jerry Falwell and Marilyn Monroe Mormons, too???

    Ouch. I just can't wrap myself around this. My brain is starting to feel like a pretzel.

    ReplyDelete
  73. Anonymous9:01 PM

    " “We also have people who are called ‘extraction missionaries,’ ‘’ Elbert Peck, the former editor and publisher of the Mormon intellectual magazine Sunstone, told me. “They basically go to their little stake center and sit down at a microfilm machine and take these names and put them into our computer database.” According to Richard E. Turley, Jr., the managing director of the Family and Church History Department, in Salt Lake City, as many as two hundred million dead people have been baptized as Mormons, including Buddha and all the popes, Shakespeare, Einstein, and Elvis Presley—what Peck dismissively calls “celebrity work for the dead.” "

    Okay, so now I've just gotta ask: is THIS what Mitt was doing during those 2 years in France – being an EXTRACTION missionary???? Could this possibly be a type of French wine-making or distillation practice? Just kidding, but it does have a kind of culinary ring to it (especially if he did it in the Dijon area). ;-)

    ReplyDelete
  74. Anonymous9:01 PM

    Mormons are top of the list of deranged religions. The Jehovahs come in a close second.

    ReplyDelete
  75. Anonymous9:40 PM

    Typical Mormon *magic* stuff. Yes, it's extremely disrespectful, but done out of concern (and in some cases love) -- that that excuses it. But I'm sure if has no effect. And most certainly the dead person doesn't give a sh*t one way or the other.

    ReplyDelete
  76. lwtjb9:44 PM

    To be fair, the LDS Church agreed to stop baptizing deceased Jews some time ago.

    5:13 PM

    Unfortunately that agreement did not end the baptisms of deceased Jews.

    ReplyDelete
  77. hrh...."Remember, the second 'm' is silent"


    huh? What? OH!


    Took me a couple few minutes. Thanks for the laugh.

    ReplyDelete
  78. "You care about THIS but not that the PResident you passionately defend despite lies had a preacher who cursed America?"

    You certainly do have a problem understanding things in context, don't you. And I'm not even going to attempt to explain what Rev. Wright was talking about during that sermon, because you are incapable of getting beyond the "God Damn American" quote and actually listening to what the man was talking about. America is not prefect and she will only flourish if she takes to heart the criticism of ALL her people. Criticizing one's country does NOT mean that one doesn't also love it.

    ReplyDelete
  79. So, help me out here.... I was baptized catholic, so now I'm dead and partying with the family in the catholic lounge in the here-after. Some crack pot Mormon decides they wanna claim my soul for their church's head count. Does that mean the bouncers of heaven come and drag my sorry self off to the Mormon sitting room to spend eternity in magic underwear? In the meantime, my loved ones are drinking my share of the coffee and whiskey while I'm stuck with orange juice? I'm scared, hold me.

    5:43 PM

    What I've been told is that the baptism of the dead is not the actual conversion of that person. The LDS belief is that we all meet up again after death. Then we are given the opportunity to hear the real gospel per the LDS church and have the opportunity then to convert. That allows us to join our loved ones for eternity. If we refuse to convert after death we are condemned to be separated from them for eternity.

    The church's goal is to identify and document everyone who has ever lived.
    It is for this reason they are so into genealogy. The ostensible reason is to baptize everybody as far back as Eve. They are amassing vital records all over the planet. Makes me want to know what they really want to do with those records.

    Since I think the whole thing is hogwash, I don't believe when they do this it will have any actual effect. I think it's a horrible practice anyway. Disrespectful is right - in the extreme.

    A childhood friend who married into the LDS church and became a zealot looked me up a few years ago. He has managed to get himself ensconced somewhere in the LDS hierarchy. I'm not sure in what capacity but more than a lowly member. He invited himself to lunch at our house, which I was happy to do. After lunch he told his wife to shut up. Then he lectured us on his LDS beliefs and why we should convert. He told us that once we heard those beliefs and rejected them we were doomed. I guess that means I am not going to get the chance after I die. Fine by me. Less hassle after I go. It's OK. I've already been condemned to hell by a whole raft of other churches. Then there is the matter that I don't believe in any kind of afterlife besides biological. To each his own.

    ReplyDelete
  80. Anonymous10:15 PM

    If I lived an atheist and died an atheist and as much as I don't believe in ghosts and afterlive -- I'd haunt that bastard for the rest of his born days.

    That's like saying that the man's life choice was wrong and they knew better. They totally discredited his life, his choice, his belief.

    Those fucking bastards. Including his wife and her siblings. They all deserve to live a life of hell. Can't say I'd give a rat's ass if there was breaking news that there was an accident. Ooops.

    ReplyDelete
  81. f the mormons can baptize me after I'm dead I think I'd like to file a lawsuit in advance for invasion of privacy and general annoyance factor. Only seems fair. Salt Lake if you're listening, I'd be willing to settle for somewhere north of half a mil.

    6:00 PM

    The lawyer gets 40%

    ReplyDelete
  82. "When you are married in a Temple Ceremony, you are married not only for your time spent here on Earth, but also for all of eternity, aka "Spousal Sealing." If you're dead, you can't have a Temple Sealing Ceremony for you and your spouse. It can only happen together, in your Earthly lifetime."

    One of my questions about the LDS church involves this practice. I know an LDS woman whose husband ditched her and their 7 children. Not only ditched but kept going back to any court that would talk to him to keep from giving her any child support or anything else. He was incredibly abusive in every way. So if they were sealed in the Temple, is she stuck with him forever anyway?

    ReplyDelete
  83. Once again, as I see Mitt Romney used as an excuse to ratchet up and justify the level of hate toward Mormons, I, a man born and raised Mormon but now on a different, non-religious track, will explain the Mormon rationale behind this:

    Typically, in Christian belief, if one does not accept Jesus Christ and get baptized, then one is lost, period. Mormons believe this as well, with the difference being that Mormons believe that every person who was ever born on this earth will get the opportunity to accept Jesus Christ, and to have a baptism done for them posthumously - every single person that ever lived.

    Hence the Mormon practice of baptism for the dead.

    Even so, in Mormon belief, the spirit of the person being baptized posthumously will have every right to reject that baptism from the other side.

    It might sound creepy to many, but from a Mormon perspective, it is benevolent and does not force anything on anyone. It just gives them a chance they might otherwise have missed.

    In this case, it would seem that the man had been presented with the opportunity while he was still alive and had rejected it, which makes the whole exercise kind of pointless. Even by Mormon understanding, he had his chance and rejected it.

    ReplyDelete
  84. lwtjb:

    I'll answer your question, too.

    No, in Mormon belief she would not be stuck with him. He would have failed to live up to the commandments and promises that he made. Eternal glory would not be his. In Mormon belief, one must not only say "I believe "and be baptized, one must live by the commandments. In Mormon belief, to abuse and abandon your wife and family is to violate the commandments and forfeit any rights to spend eternity with that wife and family.

    Again, I am not trying to defend or advance Mormon belief, because I no longer believe it myself. I am just trying to educate a little bit and hopefully reduce a little bit of the anger and hatred.

    ReplyDelete
  85. Anonymous11:42 PM

    Thank you, Nikogriego, for the link to the New Yorker article. I just finished reading it with our grad-school daughter. We are both grateful to you for providing the link.

    We, like Tolstoy, "were horrified," but feel better informed and positioned to understand why voters should perhaps think twice about Mitt's religious heritage.

    It is positively scary how much power the Mormon church has and how much political clout it now already possesses.

    ReplyDelete
  86. Anonymous1:03 AM

    I'm surprised no one has heard of this before. This is a huge part of the what Mormans do.
    The plan is to convert everyone, even after death. The have an extensive database of family trees in Salt Lake City. I forget the process, but in 1980 a very close family friend promised to come to our graves after we died to convert us to Mormanism, thus saving us.

    Since it's total nonsense, I thanked her and told her I wasn't going to have a grave, but go for it if it meant something to her.

    ReplyDelete
  87. Anonymous3:05 AM

    Did you know that all of the "Founding Fathers" and all of the dead presidents have been baptized Mormon as well?

    ReplyDelete
  88. Anonymous3:07 AM

    When you are married in a Temple Ceremony, you are married not only for your time spent here on Earth, but also for all of eternity, aka "Spousal Sealing."

    Yep, so even if he is a wife raping, child beating SOB you are stuck with him forever. Nice "religion", eh?

    ReplyDelete
  89. Anonymous3:12 AM

    Anonymous said...
    Okay, stop and think about it. To be logical (to them), they would have had to have post-humously baptized Jesus, Mary, Joseph, all the apostles (including Paul), Adam and Eve, all the Old Testament patriarchs, King David, etc. It just gets sillier and sillier. Okey dokey: so, does that mean that Judas and Goliath were Mormons?????? Are Jerry Falwell and Marilyn Monroe Mormons, too???

    Ouch. I just can't wrap myself around this. My brain is starting to feel like a pretzel.

    8:39 PM


    Yes it does. All "worthy" members of the church are encouraged to go to the temple to do these baptisms regularly. Some go once a week if they are near a temple, others go in big groups to travel to a temple that is more distant to them a couple times a year. Each person might get baptized by proxy a dozen times for different dead people.

    ReplyDelete
  90. Anonymous4:03 AM

    Not only have I heard of people being baptized after death, I know someone who did it.

    My aunt raised her children without benefit of religion. When her teenaged daughter died, my very Catholic father went to the funeral home and baptized my cousin posthumously. My cousin didn't know, my aunt didn't know but it made my father feel better.

    Ftr, my dad was a Catholic more in line with Jesus than say a Rick Santorum.

    ReplyDelete
  91. Anonymous4:33 AM

    I have always found the practice creepy, but I find Mitt Romney's equation of church and state even creepier. for Mitt Romney, missionary service in France is the same as military service in Vietnam as a draftee. For Mitt Romney, his federal tax includes the money he tithes to his church. Mitt Romney is incapable of separating church and state. For this reason, I do not want him anywhere near the White House.

    ReplyDelete
  92. Thanks for the laugh, merrycricket.

    ReplyDelete
  93. And yeah, this behavior is incredibly arrogant and disrespectful, but then the Mormon faith is a bunch of bullshit. And most Mormons are as ignorant about their faith as most fundamentalist Christians. Fundie religions count on ignorance. If you want to see how stupid they are about their own religion, invite one of those young Mormon missionaries in when they knock on your door and then start asking them a bunch of questions. They can't think on their own. They keep trying to find scripture to answer the questions but their scripture is a pile of hooey so they are stuck. You could do the same thing with a Christian fundie, but they tend to be a lot nastier than the polite Mormons.

    ReplyDelete
  94. Anonymous6:21 AM

    If they disrepect the dead's wishes and baptize them anyway, just think how they will treat live ppl. That is why he acts so wiered like a dummy figure doesn't even know how to relate to ppl. As president he'll probly get names off the tax records to baptize. I'm so sick of every religion trying to cramm their beliefs down everyone elses throat. That is why there has always been wars. Everyone thinks thier religion is right peroid. hell with anyone else's. Instead of using it to confort a person into thinking that there might be someone interested in your puney little life. These idoits get ppl to believe that God picks out your mate, makes sure the right team wins in sports. But, t lets ppl and children get killed or raped and does nothing. doesn't make sense

    ReplyDelete
  95. TO: lwtjb at 10:36PMsaid

    Me: "When you are married in a Temple Ceremony, you are married not only for your time spent here on Earth, but also for all of eternity, aka "Spousal Sealing." If you're dead, you can't have a Temple Sealing Ceremony for you and your spouse. It can only happen together, in your Earthly lifetime."

    ~~~~~~~

    One of my questions about the LDS church involves this practice. I know an LDS woman whose husband ditched her and their 7 children. Not only ditched but kept going back to any court that would talk to him to keep from giving her any child support or anything else. He was incredibly abusive in every way. So if they were sealed in the Temple, is she stuck with him forever anyway?

    ~~~~~~~~~~

    I do not know. I THINK he can unseal her, but not their children - but I'm not sure.

    I giggled - a lot - when Marie Osmond divorced her first husband. They were Sealed in a SLC Temple ceremony; she remarried for many years, then divorced her second husband and remarried her first husband - fairly recently.

    I'm sure the Church President has had a "vision" from God concerning these vexing modern-day troubles and tribulations... but I don't know what that may be.

    I was in Utah in high school during the whole "blacks can't serve in church leadership positions" mess. THAT was when I saw true LDS racism.

    KAO

    ReplyDelete
  96. Randall6:47 AM

    Those bastards!

    When I die - they're going to say boogedie-boogedie over my grave?
    When they know damn well that when I was alive I preferred to say buggerdy-buggerdy?

    Some people just have no respect for religion, I reckon...

    no respect a-tall.

    ReplyDelete
  97. Since we are matter and energy we never are "gone" and as a adult, dead in body or not, the adult person has to accept baptism. So the Romney's made themselves feel good and they can not now know if they added a soul to the exclusive Mormon heaven or not. I agree with Balzafiar at 4:55 pm in that what is IS and their restrictive entry beliefs are not critical to my soul or for that matter to the father-in-law. I should think that the father-in-law laughed at their power play and their thoughts of heaven being such an Exclusive Club.

    ReplyDelete
  98. It is the height of disrespect.

    My dad was an avowed anti-Catholic but upon his death his best friend's widow took a priest to his grave to pray and do last rites. We had already had the memorial service dad had requested.

    She was disrespectful of his beliefs and of our rights to close out his life in our way. It was a slap in the face.

    It is a sneaky bullying cowardly way to get back at a man when he can no longer confront you.

    It shows you are passive-aggressive, Romney, not honorable.

    ReplyDelete
  99. Paul - Minnesota12:52 PM

    I'm also bothered with Mormons baptizing other non-Mormon dead people.

    When Mormons arrogantly go after dead Jews, dead Catholics, other dead Christians and more dead non-Mormon people.

    Mormonism is a form of spiritual theft to get souls into their cult.

    I wish they'd let other dead (and living) people alone. I don't answer the door when their eager young ones show up. Sorry, I've already promised my soul to Satan (snark).

    I hope I'll go to hell. I doubt that it's molten lakes, brimstone and torture. I think it's a serene place. With a good climate. With has beer and polite conversation with a diverse crowd of people.

    Hell would be going to Mormon or other Christians, their version of, heaven. Ugh, being a non-sexual angel. No beer or alcohol, unless it's near beer or watered down crappy wine. All that damn cold marble. Also living up in damp clouds with smug wrongly righteous people for eternity. Shudder.

    Down elevator please. I'd rather be in the more fun place for eternity. Not that I believe in heaven or hell, yet hell sounds like a better place for me.

    ReplyDelete
  100. lwtjb1:36 PM

    @ Bill of Wasilla:

    Thank you for your excellent explanations. You did a lot better job than I did about baptism of the dead. I left pieces out of my explanation. And, you answered my long time question about abused spouses. I found it hard to imagine a compassionate church would condemn this woman to be stuck with her very abusive husband for eternity. That's not to mention what he did to his children in the process of doing to his wife. Collateral damage.

    You are right about piling on because of Mitt. One reason that's happening is the secrecy of the LDS church. You cannot understand what you don't know. Most people fear what they don't know if it could impinge on their lives. You are helping educate the rest of us. I have known many generous and kind LDS members. I appreciate the church's promotion of family.

    I still am very wary about some of this stuff. I have some of the same issues with fundamentalists. And I really do wonder what the LDS church wants with all those vital records they are accumulating. Information can be power.

    ReplyDelete
  101. Anonymous3:11 PM

    I think it makes no difference to the dead person whatsoever. What does anyone care what we do to them after they are beyond the grave? I think this attack is weak. It will go on and on until Mitt loses. But with all the contradictory stuff Mitt has done in the public sphere, why waste time on what his religion does?
    I do not like Mitt Romney. I think he is a spoiled brat who just decided he would be President- like it was his due. He is clueless on what is needed for the country. He just cares about what he wants. That should be the crux of our attacks. Attacking the religion looks petty and weak.

    ReplyDelete
  102. This is not an issue that should be mocked nor be make fun off, I have been told more often that when the person is about to die in the Catholic faith ,they are to take their last sacrament that is what they call the ANOINTING of the SICK ; I guess this is relative to the baptism of the dead by the Mormons. And hey for once cut the junk crap joke on Mormon Underwear, it really isn't that funny. I am a Catholic and I have nothing against Mormons it's just their beliefs I cannot swallow. But I respect them fr what they believe in.

    ReplyDelete

Don't feed the trolls!
It just goes directly to their thighs.