Morality is not determined by the church you attend nor the faith you embrace. It is determined by the quality of your character and the positive impact you have on those you meet along your journey
Saturday, February 18, 2012
Sorry, considering the Religious Right's current attacks on contraception, I couldn't resist.
If you are going to get mad at me just because I don't believe an omniscient being of absolute power raped a 15 year old girl than you're just going to have to be mad at me. Because I don't.
I absolutely agree w/you. And have since I was a 15 yr old girl (71 now).
Religion is the biggest scam ever to sully the earth. Imagine how much humans could have accomplished without the crippling psychological and material effects of religion.
I'm just tired of people who think they're superior because they deem others inferior. We're all the same. Dems and Reps both have flaws. Dems wont admit the real reasons auto industry and housing industry failed. They won't admit the econ crash started long before Bush thought about being President. They wpnt admit Obamas policies aren't meant to better things, but to manipulate things in order to institute a completely different system. I will admit Obama is a political genius. I will also say he is not a good leader for THIS country nor does he have his constituents best interests (or any interests) at heart.
Sometimes, when I quietly muse, I think that it is possible that humans were visited by a superior alien race and perhaps this chick Mary WAS impregnated and had a son. A hybrid. A half breed. The star the Maji or whoever followed was the mother ship, who were in the area to watch the birth or maybe take the kid away. Who knows. Makes as much sense as anything else. Maybe an alien visitation was too much for people back then, so they invented a religion to squash it down and keep people dumb and controlled. I am fascinatee by the HOly Grail which has been misinterpreted as a tangible physical thing, when in actuallity it is a blood line. Maybe the blood line is the hybrid-ness from that alien impregnation of Mary. Again, this makes as much sense as anything else we've been indoctrinating people with over the centuries. I believe that humans have way more potential than we use with our brains, but we have not tapped that potential yet or in some part of our evolution it was squashed. I also could believe we are a giant alien experiment or even an advanced form of entertainment for a superior race. What if we are some young adult alien's "Sim City" of sorts.... I know that we are fucking up alot of stuff on this earth physically and we have failed in how we treat each other. Humanity needs to break free of our chains and really evolve. Enough of my musings. The poster is really great. There is no comeback for it!
Well the nice thing is that it was done by magic and she wasn't humiliated or debased and she didn't feel a thing. And of course, no worries about that nasty sex for pleasure stuff.
The xtian religion plagiarized the story of a deity born to a vigin on the winter solstice. Pick any ancient religion you like and you'll find pregnant virgins all over the place (yep, even the virgins needed contraceptives back then).
Does anyone think it's plausible that Rick Santorum was abused by a priest as a child so much that he believes as pennance for the deeds done upon him, he is trying to seek forgiveness by shoving down the throats of everyone his far right ways?
Hard to refute someone without bias when that person's post is ALL bias. You say that Dems and Reps are alike, yet your argument is baed only on Democratic leadership. Yes, the economic crisis started before Bush...under Reagan. Clinton restored sanity to the budget and left Bush a HUGE surplus, which he promptly squandered tax breaks for the wealthy, who neither needed them nor used them to create jobs here at home. As far as Obama, you give into the lazy Fox meme that everything he does has a hidden agenda, yet you offer no proof. As far as I can tell, his 'agenda' has gotten us out of Iraq, gotten bin Laden, helped Libya with no troops on the ground, helped the economy (stock market up, unemployment down,) saved American jobs with the auto loans, since repaid with interest....yeash, if that is some sneaky anti-AMERICAN agenda, he sure has me fooled. Meanwhile, your party wants to take away womens' rights, kids' food, healthcare, bomb Iran...yeah, now there's a real pro-American agenda. I suggest you do a bit more reading off FoxNoise, and try thinking. It's hard to admit mistakes, but you can do it.
Gryphen, I cracked up when I saw that picture, but when I read your caption, I winced. Some folks are going to take issue with that description, y'know. (Picture is still mighty funny!)
As for anonymous @ 3:54 who says that the left can't answer without bias.. well, not so fast, grasshopper. One, the economy mess did begin long before Bush (either of 'em) and two... Can you listen "without bias"? Right.
For those who have taken some offense at my use of the term "rape," it should be noted that I am far from alone in that description of the "event."
Thomas Paine, the great thinker and one of the founders of the U.S.A., opines :
“The story, taking it as it is told, is blasphemously obscene. It gives an account of a young woman engaged to be married, and while under this engagement she is, to speak plain language, debauched by a ghost, under the impious pretence (Luke, chap. i;, ver. 35), that ‘the Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee.’ Notwithstanding which, Joseph afterward marries her, cohabits with her as his wife, and in his turn rivals the ghost.
Thank you for showing us how unbiased you are. Only a person without bias could turn a discussion about religion into a bash of our President.
YOU are what is wrong with this country. Simple. Fact. Indisputable.
Sorry Bristol/Willow/Sarah (I doubt it's Tawd, as I doubt he is able to type) but it doesn't work to come to this site and spread your lies and fairy tales. Because we are all in a whole different league than you intellectually and morally. Instead of enraging us, you make us laugh.
You know, I feel sorry for you that you are not able to get over it and move on with your "happy" lives. You were defeated. period. get. over. it.
@3:54 A.M. Good morning VISITOR FROM UNITED STATES. Your obsession with President Obama is making you lose sleep. That, companied with your drug use and diet pills, keeps you under the Plastic Surgeon's knife. You will be lucky to last another 2 years. As for your Republican views, what are your Solutions? Thought so, you don't have any, just TALKING POINTS. President Obama 2012.
5:46 am Sally in MI. You put it perfectly. Maybe people in Michigan understand how important the auto bailout LOANS were to the entire country, not just to Michigan.
Again, Gryphen - when will you start regularly offending people of other faiths with such mocking slams? You really come across as just despising Christianity, not religion as a whole. And there, you have a very unsettling commonality with the intolerant fundies you probably think you're so different from.
As for Thomas Paine and your posted graphic. As a Christian and for that matter, a woman, who has read the account of Mary in the Bible many times, it never occurred to me to interpret the conception as resulting from a sexual act with the Holy Spirit, much less a rape. And nowhere else in the Bible is the Holy Spirit depicted as prone to any such acts. So, that is where I certainly disagree with Thomas Paine.
Of course, this poster isn't even including Thomas Paine's quote, which at least was probably based on something he really thought. Rather, it's the usual cutting snark (along with a lewd hint that is not backed up by what the Bible actually says) that is so prevalent in our society today.
Non-religious people certainly aren't immune to acting like flatout jerks, that's for sure. Which is just one reason why I completely disagree with their view that religion is the cause of all pain and discord in the world.
Anonymous said...Does anyone think it's plausible that Rick Santorum was abused by a priest as a child so much that he believes as pennance for the deeds done upon him, he is trying to seek forgiveness by shoving down the throats of everyone his far right ways? 5:22 AM
It is possible but I think it is just as likely he is trying to make up for the sins of his wife. Women are the filthy sex after all. We should all be crucified on her behalf.
big•ot•ry [big-uh-tree] noun, plural -ries. 1. stubborn and complete intolerance of any creed, belief, or opinion that differs from one's own. 2. the actions, beliefs, prejudices, etc., of a bigot.
I have spent my entire adult life decrying and fighting against conservative bigotry of all sorts: racial, sexual, nationalistic, economic, class, and yes, religious. I never thought I would someday have to train my anti-bigotry antennae on supposed liberals. Liberals who I always thought believed to their very core that everyone was entitled to respect for his/her beliefs, culture, traditions, orientation, and uniqueness as an individual, as long as those things brought no harm to others. Of course, one might point to the harm that has been done in the name of religion during the Crusades or some of the policies promoted by the religious right in our own time. To do so is no different than nor is it any more fair to attribute the equal or greater evils that have been perpetrated by Stalin or Mao to atheism. If you’re going to persistently look upon religious belief as the sole province of a bunch of rather pathetic, anti-intellectual, anti-science, anti-women, homophobic rubes, then don’t forget to include among them the Berrigans, Martin Luther King Jr., and of course, our own President, Barack Obama. I hope in the future you will somehow find the strength to resist the urge to make further posts like this one. They reflect rather poorly on the principles I thought we all shared.
So how exactly do you think Mary got pregnant by God?In Vitro? Turkey baster? Cloning ?
I am sure Gryphen gives most time spent on religion to Christianity because so far its the only religion working overtime to control our political system in this country.If Hindus and Hare Krishnas were trying to shove their beliefs down our throats and force us to take away the rights of women and send them back tothe dark ages,I am sure we would be discussing them. Muslims and Sharia law?The Talipublicans have that covered,they will shove us women back into the back seat,10 paces behind,cranking out babies to vote for them if we let them.When politicians seek to subjugate more than half of our population in the name of Christianity,something IS terribly wrong with our country,and it is not our President Obama doing it.Can you think of a President with more respect for women than our POTUS with his wife,mother-in-law,and daughters reminding him daily ?Open your eyes and use the brain you believe God gave you.Or did you think He put it there for you to waste it?
I was thinking about our trolls and how they sound somuch alike,the halting sentences and odd sentence structure and the use of certain words and phreses.Then Iwas thinking about Ram getting paid for working "Grassroots Internet".Then I thought what if an intelligent well written person wanted to try to sound different,less like a writer,but still had the same viewpoint to express?What would they sound like?Especially if they had done some of the dumbed down writing for Sarah,and were often exposed to her strange syntax and word salad? Pretty sure they would sound like our troll who posts here as multiple trolls. Hi Becky !!
The reason Gryph isn't bashing other religions in this country is because Judaism, Islam, Bhuddism, Hinduism, Atheism, etc, are not legislating for FORCED conversion to Right Wing CHRISTIAN Fundamentalism for ALL people in this country.
No, there is no covert, underhanded, secretive, evangelical recruitment activity going on by those religious - obviously they feel their religious tenets are strong enough that they don't have to resort to forcing their religious dogma down everyone's throats - against their will.
When was the last time a Muslim knocked on your door (incessantly and over and over and over!) and asked - "Hey, you want to be a Muslim and believe exactly like I do or be subjected to the likes of Hell if you don't? Oh and by the way, how's about all the women in your house submitting themselves to all men and what the men say they can and can't do? And don't forget to send as much money as you can to support Allah and efforts to get even more recruits?"
Has that happened to you - EVER? No - anyone knocking on your door is from one denomination or "sect" within Christianity - MORMONS, Jehovah Witnesses,etc., or the MOONIES (not Christianity - but know a good "business" plan when they see it)!
The ones that don't door- knock advertise everywhere, and are often behind community charity organizations - in exchange for these trinkets or minimal "help" you need to believe as we do. Or take over well-known programs for children and gain access to new recruits that way - often unbeknownst to participants.
The Mormons are so devious they now basically are the Boy Scouts and go so far as to recruit posthumously - from the dead members of other denominations, faiths, even atheists - against the will and consent of the deceased or their families. Soon, geneolgical records will show only that the only religion that was practiced here is Mormonism!
That's the gist of why Christianity in this country gets the bulk of criticism - because underlying their religiosity is the element of force and taking away free will, forcing non-believers or members of other denominations to believe as they do - through coercion, brainwashing, threats, fear, and when that doesn't work - legislating it upon us.
This is what we are seeing played out on the national stage right now, in America, where the Constitution specifically guarantees separation of Church and State. The mainstream Christian denominations are certainly less extreme and the majority of them do contribute to the community freely without demanding payback, for the most part.
But they must start coming out more clearly to denounce the Christian Right Wing fundamentalism - because their less extremist beliefs are on the chopping block, too! Sharia law is here alright, but it's not Islam's Sharia - it's Christian.
So, thank you, Gryph - this does give us another perspective on the immaculate conception and the issue of "choice" for women. Strange that forced lack of choice for women seems to be at the forefront of today's struggle between the secularists who support the Constitutional rights of all citizens, regardless of gender, and the Christianists who are ever more successful at instituting their brand of Sharia Law and forcing their extremism into law through the political system.
Having been raised a Southern Baptist Christian (I didn't learn there was a difference between Baptists and Christians until I was 28), I struggled with my religion until I realized that the Bible has to be the absolute best written book EV-AH!
Anyone, any age, any race, and of any intellect can hold it, quote it, swear upon it and interpret it any way that suits their motive and still be taken somewhat seriously. Not only that, depending on how strong a salesman they are, they can convince people to give them money and do what they say (not as they do!) wink, wink
Gryphen's point of view has been a welcomed "other side of the debate". First because no other point of view has ever been given the weight Christianity has, thus allowing so-called Christians to delegate rules that govern our entire country. Second because the older I got, the more Christianity became a profiteering rack and the biggest legal, "non-profit" scam I know of.
Throughout its entire history, Christians have attacked, diminished, marginalized and erased other schools of thought. So, enough with all of the whining about Gryphen's attack on Christianity. Your job is to simply stand by your religion in your effort to educate those of us who are open to civil debate and discussion on the topic.
In my 8th grade AP class we had to draw from a hat full of subjects and write a 2 minute speech on that subject. I picked "immaculate conception" as my subject and while I wasn't raised with any religion I did know of the story in the bible regarding mary's "virgin birth". My closing statement, as a 13-year old, was "I certainly hope this never happens to me because my parents would never believe it"!
Gryph I'm with you, that sperm came from somewhere very corporeal and very not spiritual. There has to be the apparatus and the hormones, and a circulatory system and other bits and peaces of a human male's body to make that Y chromosome and get it delivered.
It is was a self fergilized pregnancy then Jesus was a girl, because it would have been two ova with their single X chromosome fusing.
Funny, when the shoe is on the other foot, feathers will be ruffled and people's feelings will be hurt. But it's fine to bash Athesism or Agnosticism (or mysticism for that matter) and expect no reaction whatsoever.
I understand why you posted this, it's in context of this Christian stream of consiousness that's being shoved down our throats in the name of "politics" and "constitutional rights". Polls are showing that over 90 percent of Catholic Women admit to using birth control, which flies directly against the male dominated dogma that the Church preaches. So it's fine to "pick and choose" the religious laws you want to follow, and not call them "sins", yet if someone else uses birth control, they're just evil, immoral people who "use it as an excuse to practice things in the sexual realm".
In this Holy War on Religion, of Religion, and by Religion, I’ve had enough! I’m a lover, not a fighter: I’m surrendering! Instead... I’m gonna start my OWN religion, and get in on the good stuff: tax exemptions, and lots of taxpayer money to do what I want, in the name of religious liberty. Most definitely! Hey Newt -wanna join? We’re gonna have open marriages and multiple wives and all sorts of neat stuff that you’re just gonna LOVE! But don’t you worry Newt : NO nasty stoning of adulterers. I Promise! As for Santorum- he’ll make us a real fine preacher…in fact, we’ll make him Saint Santorum. And fix his Google search results. As for Mr. Obama, obviously, we’ll need to demonize him even further. “Severely!” And his dog too. Last but not least: Mitt and Ron, hey, just for you guys: we’ll insist on no taxes AT ALL for church members…and human sacrifice of illegal aliens. Televised. Whoooppee! What a country! :-) By the way, please don’t mention the REASON that Mitt Romney’s dad was born in Mexico (i.e. the fact that Mitt’s Mormon grand-dad LEFT the United States in the 1880’s and went to Mexico because laws against polygamy were passed in the U.S. ; Being a Mormon back then, Mitt’s grand-dad wanted to keep his multiple wives. Hey, who wouldn’t?) Bottom line: if we follow the “logic” of the people crying crocodile tears about a non-existent “war on religion”, then the U.S. should have allowed polygamy (and who knows what else) just because a particular religion claimed it as their belief. GIVE ME A BREAK! Absolutely NO ONE is coming into our Churches or places of worship and trying to tell parishioners what to believe...or forcing them to use contraception. BUT If the Bishops (and other denominations) want to continue running businesses that employ millions of people of varying faiths -or no "faith" at all- THEN they must play by the same rules and rights that other workers enjoy...especially if their businesses use our tax dollars (and skip paying taxes) in the process. This is not a “war on religion”. It’s a war on women and men who simply want to plan their families and control their future.
"The Mormons are so devious they now basically are the Boy Scouts."
That's true in my county. All the scout troops are run by Mormons. I couldn't find a place for my son without heavy religious overtones. We gave up. Fortunately, we found other things to do.
As for Gryph writing about rape, what exactly do you call it when a young teen is "offered" the opportunity to be impregnated by an all-powerful older man (as god always seems to be a man). I don't call it "choice". I call it pedophilia.
But as other writers have stated, the concept of a virgin birth vastly predates the first century of the modern era. However, many - such as some forms of Buddhism - appreciate that the "virgin" birth is into later spiritual consciousness, not the physical birth of a baby.
In the Christian tradition, I recall it was Luke who emphasized the virgin birth of Jesus. As a Greek, he had a cultural history of recognizing the divine birth of certain individuals, such as Alexander the Great. Been awhile since I studied the subject, so perhaps I err.
As for Gryph being on a roll as an open atheist (I perfer secularist as I am not against a god, just don't include any such concept in my life), I do cringe about some of his posts. He's not writing anything worse than I have heard from religion-prone folks attacking us "nonbelievers". I cringe because I know he's going to get pounded from some people who don't yet realize how we have people constantly judging us negatively for not buying into their beliefs - regardless of our actions and the lives we live - and cramming their thought patterns on us. Doesn't feel good or right when Gryph does it? Welcome to our world.
As for Gryph being on a roll as an open atheist (I perfer secularist as I am not against a god, just don't include any such concept in my life), I do cringe about some of his posts. He's not writing anything worse than I have heard from religion-prone folks attacking us "nonbelievers". I cringe because I know he's going to get pounded from some people who don't yet realize how we have people constantly judging us negatively for not buying into their beliefs - regardless of our actions and the lives we live - and cramming their thought patterns on us. Doesn't feel good or right when Gryph does it? Welcome to our world.
Agreed. With one small caveat:
If we decry behavior from the "right" then why on earth do we seem to emulate it so damned often? No doubt they absolutely "deserve" it, and often, but... I'd much rather determine my behavior by my rules than by theirs.
...I just don't want to give them that much power over me - that much credence - to make me alter my self, to match theirs (if I hate it, why would I wanna match it, eh?)
Anon 3:48: "As for Gryph writing about rape, what exactly do you call it when a young teen is "offered" the opportunity to be impregnated by an all-powerful older man (as god always seems to be a man). I don't call it "choice". I call it pedophilia."
If you have to rewrite the story in such a smarmy and suggestive way to suit your purposes, then the rest of my post is probably going to be a waste of my time writing. I'm going to write it, anyway, because your characterization of God is so very lewd and twisted, I cannot let it stand.
- First off, it is very clear when sexual acts are described in the Bible. Certain wording is used, like "knew her" or "laid down with her." No wording of any sort is used in the account of Mary.
- Mary is clearly referred to as a virgin in the Bible after the conception takes place, which makes it impossible for her to have been a victim of rape.
- At no point in the Bible is there even a precedent of God raping anyone or any sort of characterization of God in a sexualized context.
- Any accounts of rape in the Bible are written in a negative context, at least the ones that come to my immediate mind. It is clearly frowned upon.
Some of you actually seem shocked that there are Christian progressives and Democrats, which is truly perplexing. Many of the most revered and effective progressives of their various times were/are Christians, like FDR, Jimmy Carter (even if he doesn't get any credit for some of the things he did as president), and of course, President Obama.
I could go on an on. MLK, Jr. The original Martin Luther. The Abolitionists. Just to name a few.
Also, some of the largest blocks of voters in the Democratic Party are deeply religious people, at least their majorities are. The majority of Latinos and African Americans are very devout people. I don't know about the majority of white Democratic voters, but I seem to remember it was over fifty percent the last time I saw some such number.
My point is that you do the progressive movement no favors with the constant Christian-bashing, at least not in the realm of politics. It's an uneasy enough coalition as it is, with so many different factions under one tent. In a way, your targeting Christians in the movement is similar to how the rightwing fundies demonize any moderates in the Republican party.
- "Mary is clearly referred to as a virgin in the Bible after the conception takes place, which makes it impossible for her to have been a victim of rape."
Mary and Joe were ahead of their time and were the first IVF subjects.
Imagine if I said I wanted to marry a 15 year old girl today, but insist that I would never have sex with her. Half would call me a pedophile, half would call me a closet homosexual. No one would call her the mother of God...
Anal sex is the most effective method of birth control.
ReplyDeleteReligious debate:
ReplyDeleteMy invisible friend can beat up your invisible friend!
I absolutely agree w/you. And have since I was a 15 yr old girl (71 now).
ReplyDeleteReligion is the biggest scam ever to sully the earth. Imagine how much humans could have accomplished without the crippling psychological and material effects of religion.
I'm just tired of people who think they're superior because they deem others inferior. We're all the same. Dems and Reps both have flaws. Dems wont admit the real reasons auto industry and housing industry failed. They won't admit the econ crash started long before Bush thought about being President. They wpnt admit Obamas policies aren't meant to better things, but to manipulate things in order to institute a completely different system. I will admit Obama is a political genius. I will also say he is not a good leader for THIS country nor does he have his constituents best interests (or any interests) at heart.
ReplyDeleteRefute me without bias. Try it. Impossible.
OK, now that is priceless!!
ReplyDeleteSometimes, when I quietly muse, I think that it is possible that humans were visited by a superior alien race and perhaps this chick Mary WAS impregnated and had a son. A hybrid. A half breed. The star the Maji or whoever followed was the mother ship, who were in the area to watch the birth or maybe take the kid away. Who knows. Makes as much sense as anything else. Maybe an alien visitation was too much for people back then, so they invented a religion to squash it down and keep people dumb and controlled.
I am fascinatee by the HOly Grail which has been misinterpreted as a tangible physical thing, when in actuallity it is a blood line. Maybe the blood line is the hybrid-ness from that alien impregnation of Mary.
Again, this makes as much sense as anything else we've been indoctrinating people with over the centuries.
I believe that humans have way more potential than we use with our brains, but we have not tapped that potential yet or in some part of our evolution it was squashed. I also could believe we are a giant alien experiment or even
an advanced form of entertainment for a superior race. What if we are some young adult alien's "Sim City" of sorts....
I know that we are fucking up alot of stuff on this earth physically and we have failed in how we treat each other. Humanity needs to break free of our chains and really evolve.
Enough of my musings.
The poster is really great. There is no comeback for it!
Well the nice thing is that it was done by magic and she wasn't humiliated or debased and she didn't feel a thing. And of course, no worries about that nasty sex for pleasure stuff.
ReplyDeleteIt wasn't a new fairy tale, even 2000 years ago.
ReplyDeleteThe xtian religion plagiarized the story of a deity born to a vigin on the winter solstice. Pick any ancient religion you like and you'll find pregnant virgins all over the place (yep, even the virgins needed contraceptives back then).
Does anyone think it's plausible that Rick Santorum was abused by a priest as a child so much that he believes as pennance for the deeds done upon him, he is trying to seek forgiveness by shoving down the throats of everyone his far right ways?
ReplyDeleteto anon 3:54 - Osama bin Laden.
ReplyDeleteUm, okay.
ReplyDeleteWell, it's a little difficult NOT to feel marginalized when you continue to put down other people's beliefs.
You DON'T have to agree, but I didnt think you would continue to beat up on people who DO believe it.
AND I have NEVER heard someone use the term RAPE before concerning Mary, and it is fucked. Up.
What makes MARY such aPOWERFUL WOMAN is her strength.
She AGREED to carry the child.
She was not forced, she was ASKED.
I am really disappointed in you, Gryphen.
I don't like Sarah Palin and the evil she spouts.
I don't agree with the persecution of ANYONE.
PEOPLE have mangled the beauty of the essence of faith to bully and demean.
Simply because this is how SOME act is NOT to make blanket statements about ALL people who may share share their faith in name only.
Well, congrats. You did what the trolls couldn't do.
Made me sad.
Out for awhile.
Peace.
Anon @ 3:54
ReplyDeleteHard to refute someone without bias when that person's post is ALL bias. You say that Dems and Reps are alike, yet your argument is baed only on Democratic leadership. Yes, the economic crisis started before Bush...under Reagan. Clinton restored sanity to the budget and left Bush a HUGE surplus, which he promptly squandered tax breaks for the wealthy, who neither needed them nor used them to create jobs here at home. As far as Obama, you give into the lazy Fox meme that everything he does has a hidden agenda, yet you offer no proof. As far as I can tell, his 'agenda' has gotten us out of Iraq, gotten bin Laden, helped Libya with no troops on the ground, helped the economy (stock market up, unemployment down,) saved American jobs with the auto loans, since repaid with interest....yeash, if that is some sneaky anti-AMERICAN agenda, he sure has me fooled.
Meanwhile, your party wants to take away womens' rights, kids' food, healthcare, bomb Iran...yeah, now there's a real pro-American agenda. I suggest you do a bit more reading off FoxNoise, and try thinking. It's hard to admit mistakes, but you can do it.
Gryphen,
ReplyDeleteI cracked up when I saw that picture, but when I read your caption, I winced. Some folks are going to take issue with that description, y'know. (Picture is still mighty funny!)
As for anonymous @ 3:54 who says that the left can't answer without bias.. well, not so fast, grasshopper. One, the economy mess did begin long before Bush (either of 'em) and two... Can you listen "without bias"? Right.
Yeh, sauce for the goose and all that.
For those who have taken some offense at my use of the term "rape," it should be noted that I am far from alone in that description of the "event."
ReplyDeleteThomas Paine, the great thinker and one of the founders of the U.S.A., opines :
“The story, taking it as it is told, is blasphemously obscene. It gives an account of a young woman engaged to be married, and while under this engagement she is, to speak plain language, debauched by a ghost, under the impious pretence (Luke, chap. i;, ver. 35), that ‘the Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee.’ Notwithstanding which, Joseph afterward marries her, cohabits with her as his wife, and in his turn rivals the ghost.
Thank you for showing us how unbiased you are. Only a person without bias could turn a discussion about religion into a bash of our President.
ReplyDeleteYOU are what is wrong with this country. Simple. Fact. Indisputable.
Sorry Bristol/Willow/Sarah (I doubt it's Tawd, as I doubt he is able to type) but it doesn't work to come to this site and spread your lies and fairy tales. Because we are all in a whole different league than you intellectually and morally. Instead of enraging us, you make us laugh.
You know, I feel sorry for you that you are not able to get over it and move on with your "happy" lives. You were defeated. period. get. over. it.
@3:54 A.M. Good morning VISITOR FROM UNITED STATES. Your obsession with President Obama is making you lose sleep. That, companied with your drug use and diet pills, keeps you under the Plastic Surgeon's knife. You will be lucky to last another 2 years. As for your Republican views, what are your Solutions? Thought so,
ReplyDeleteyou don't have any, just TALKING POINTS. President Obama 2012.
5:46 am Sally in MI. You put it perfectly. Maybe people in Michigan understand how important the auto bailout LOANS were to the entire country, not just to Michigan.
ReplyDelete4:12
ReplyDeleteI have had that same thought! At least when I was a kid. It's not that less believable, really.
Again, Gryphen - when will you start regularly offending people of other faiths with such mocking slams? You really come across as just despising Christianity, not religion as a whole. And there, you have a very unsettling commonality with the intolerant fundies you probably think you're so different from.
ReplyDeleteAs for Thomas Paine and your posted graphic. As a Christian and for that matter, a woman, who has read the account of Mary in the Bible many times, it never occurred to me to interpret the conception as resulting from a sexual act with the Holy Spirit, much less a rape. And nowhere else in the Bible is the Holy Spirit depicted as prone to any such acts. So, that is where I certainly disagree with Thomas Paine.
Of course, this poster isn't even including Thomas Paine's quote, which at least was probably based on something he really thought.
Rather, it's the usual cutting snark (along with a lewd hint that is not backed up by what the Bible actually says) that is so prevalent in our society today.
Non-religious people certainly aren't immune to acting like flatout jerks, that's for sure. Which is just one reason why I completely disagree with their view that religion is the cause of all pain and discord in the world.
I believe because I have faith because I believe. There--religion in a nut shell.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous said...Does anyone think it's plausible that Rick Santorum was abused by a priest as a child so much that he believes as pennance for the deeds done upon him, he is trying to seek forgiveness by shoving down the throats of everyone his far right ways? 5:22 AM
ReplyDeleteIt is possible but I think it is just as likely he is trying to make up for the sins of his wife. Women are the filthy sex after all. We should all be crucified on her behalf.
big•ot•ry [big-uh-tree]
ReplyDeletenoun, plural -ries.
1. stubborn and complete intolerance of any creed, belief, or opinion that differs from one's own.
2. the actions, beliefs, prejudices, etc., of a bigot.
I have spent my entire adult life decrying and fighting against conservative bigotry of all sorts: racial, sexual, nationalistic, economic, class, and yes, religious. I never thought I would someday have to train my anti-bigotry antennae on supposed liberals. Liberals who I always thought believed to their very core that everyone was entitled to respect for his/her beliefs, culture, traditions, orientation, and uniqueness as an individual, as long as those things brought no harm to others. Of course, one might point to the harm that has been done in the name of religion during the Crusades or some of the policies promoted by the religious right in our own time. To do so is no different than nor is it any more fair to attribute the equal or greater evils that have been perpetrated by Stalin or Mao to atheism. If you’re going to persistently look upon religious belief as the sole province of a bunch of rather pathetic, anti-intellectual, anti-science, anti-women, homophobic rubes, then don’t forget to include among them the Berrigans, Martin Luther King Jr., and of course, our own President, Barack Obama. I hope in the future you will somehow find the strength to resist the urge to make further posts like this one. They reflect rather poorly on the principles I thought we all shared.
Now Christians get a taste of how others feel when Christians try to shove their beliefs on others.
ReplyDeleteHow many versions/interpretations/translations of the Bible are there? Yeah, enough to manipulate the non critical thinkers.
7:18
ReplyDeleteSo how exactly do you think Mary got pregnant by God?In Vitro? Turkey baster? Cloning ?
I am sure Gryphen gives most time spent on religion to Christianity because so far its the only religion working overtime to control our political system in this country.If Hindus and Hare Krishnas were trying to shove their beliefs down our throats and force us to take away the rights of women and send them back tothe dark ages,I am sure we would be discussing them. Muslims and Sharia law?The Talipublicans have that covered,they will shove us women back into the back seat,10 paces behind,cranking out babies to vote for them if we let them.When politicians seek to subjugate more than half of our population in the name of Christianity,something IS terribly wrong with our country,and it is not our President Obama doing it.Can you think of a President with more respect for women than our POTUS with his wife,mother-in-law,and daughters reminding him daily ?Open your eyes and use the brain you believe God gave you.Or did you think He put it there for you to waste it?
I was thinking about our trolls and how they sound somuch alike,the halting sentences and odd sentence structure and the use of certain words and phreses.Then Iwas thinking about Ram getting paid for working "Grassroots Internet".Then I thought what if an intelligent well written person wanted to try to sound different,less like a writer,but still had the same viewpoint to express?What would they sound like?Especially if they had done some of the dumbed down writing for Sarah,and were often exposed to her strange syntax and word salad? Pretty sure they would sound like our troll who posts here as multiple trolls.
ReplyDeleteHi Becky !!
The reason Gryph isn't bashing other religions in this country is because Judaism, Islam, Bhuddism, Hinduism, Atheism, etc, are not legislating for FORCED conversion to Right Wing CHRISTIAN Fundamentalism for ALL people in this country.
ReplyDeleteNo, there is no covert, underhanded, secretive, evangelical recruitment activity going on by those religious - obviously they feel their religious tenets are strong enough that they don't have to resort to forcing their religious dogma down everyone's throats - against their will.
When was the last time a Muslim knocked on your door (incessantly and over and over and over!) and asked - "Hey, you want to be a Muslim and believe exactly like I do or be subjected to the likes of Hell if you don't? Oh and by the way, how's about all the women in your house submitting themselves to all men and what the men say they can and can't do? And don't forget to send as much money as you can to support Allah and efforts to get even more recruits?"
Has that happened to you - EVER? No - anyone knocking on your door is from one denomination or "sect" within Christianity - MORMONS, Jehovah Witnesses,etc., or the MOONIES (not Christianity - but know a good "business" plan when they see it)!
The ones that don't door- knock advertise everywhere, and are often behind community charity organizations - in exchange for these trinkets or minimal "help" you need to believe as we do. Or take over well-known programs for children and gain access to new recruits that way - often unbeknownst to participants.
The Mormons are so devious they now basically are the Boy Scouts and go so far as to recruit posthumously - from the dead members of other denominations, faiths, even atheists - against the will and consent of the deceased or their families.
Soon, geneolgical records will show only that the only religion that was practiced here is Mormonism!
That's the gist of why Christianity in this country gets the bulk of criticism - because underlying their religiosity is the element of force and taking away free will, forcing non-believers or members of other denominations to believe as they do - through coercion, brainwashing, threats, fear, and when that doesn't work - legislating it upon us.
This is what we are seeing played out on the national stage right now, in America, where the Constitution specifically guarantees separation of Church and State. The mainstream Christian denominations are certainly less extreme and the majority of them do contribute to the community freely without demanding payback, for the most part.
But they must start coming out more clearly to denounce the Christian Right Wing fundamentalism - because their less extremist beliefs are on the chopping block, too! Sharia law is here alright, but it's not Islam's Sharia - it's Christian.
So, thank you, Gryph - this does give us another perspective on the immaculate conception and the issue of "choice" for women. Strange that forced lack of choice for women seems to be at the forefront of today's struggle between the secularists who support the Constitutional rights of all citizens, regardless of gender, and the Christianists who are ever more successful at instituting their brand of Sharia Law and forcing their extremism into law through the political system.
Right Wingers Go Wild Against Women Around the Country
ReplyDeleteFrom Virginia to Oklahoma and beyond, the id of the contemporary right is on a rampage against American women.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/02/17/right-wingers-go-wild-against-women-around-the-country.html
Gryphen, I appreciate your blog!
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSqJ-7tg0Eo&list=LLTUh-uJ_JqLoT-R0TnshxlA&index=4&feature=plpp_video
Well, Mary had to come up with some explanation or she would have been stoned to death.
ReplyDeleteI always thought it was odd that she was picked out of all the other virgins in the world. The winner of the Jesus Lottery.
Poor Joseph. Had to marry her while she carried another's child. No wonder he's a saint.
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteI believe because I have faith because I believe. There--religion in a nut shell.
7:49 AM
Now, picture a puppy chasing its tail. Perfect.
Crystal Sage said...
ReplyDeletePoor Joseph (Toad). Had to marry her while she carried another's child. No wonder he's a saint (pimp).
10:34 AM
I agree with mommom (8:32am) and Marleycat (9:25)
ReplyDeleteHaving been raised a Southern Baptist Christian (I didn't learn there was a difference between Baptists and Christians until I was 28), I struggled with my religion until I realized that the Bible has to be the absolute best written book EV-AH!
Anyone, any age, any race, and of any intellect can hold it, quote it, swear upon it and interpret it any way that suits their motive and still be taken somewhat seriously. Not only that, depending on how strong a salesman they are, they can convince people to give them money and do what they say (not as they do!) wink, wink
Gryphen's point of view has been a welcomed "other side of the debate". First because no other point of view has ever been given the weight Christianity has, thus allowing so-called Christians to delegate rules that govern our entire country. Second because the older I got, the more Christianity became a profiteering rack and the biggest legal, "non-profit" scam I know of.
Throughout its entire history, Christians have attacked, diminished, marginalized and erased other schools of thought. So, enough with all of the whining about Gryphen's attack on Christianity. Your job is to simply stand by your religion in your effort to educate those of us who are open to civil debate and discussion on the topic.
Just sayin'
PERFECT!
ReplyDeleteMarleycat...EXACTLY!
ReplyDeleteIn my 8th grade AP class we had to draw from a hat full of subjects and write a 2 minute speech on that subject. I picked "immaculate conception" as my subject and while I wasn't raised with any religion I did know of the story in the bible regarding mary's "virgin birth". My closing statement, as a 13-year old, was "I certainly hope this never happens to me because my parents would never believe it"!
ReplyDeleteGryph I'm with you, that sperm came from somewhere very corporeal and very not spiritual. There has to be the apparatus and the hormones, and a circulatory system and other bits and peaces of a human male's body to make that Y chromosome and get it delivered.
ReplyDeleteIt is was a self fergilized pregnancy then Jesus was a girl, because it would have been two ova with their single X chromosome fusing.
Great Post, Gryphen!
ReplyDeleteFunny, when the shoe is on the other foot, feathers will be ruffled and people's feelings will be hurt. But it's fine to bash Athesism or Agnosticism (or mysticism for that matter) and expect no reaction whatsoever.
I understand why you posted this, it's in context of this Christian stream of consiousness that's being shoved down our throats in the name of "politics" and "constitutional rights". Polls are showing that over 90 percent of Catholic Women admit to using birth control, which flies directly against the male dominated dogma that the Church preaches. So it's fine to "pick and choose" the religious laws you want to follow, and not call them "sins", yet if someone else uses birth control, they're just evil, immoral people who "use it as an excuse to practice things in the sexual realm".
In this Holy War on Religion, of Religion, and by Religion, I’ve had enough! I’m a lover, not a fighter: I’m surrendering! Instead... I’m gonna start my OWN religion, and get in on the good stuff: tax exemptions, and lots of taxpayer money to do what I want, in the name of religious liberty. Most definitely! Hey Newt -wanna join? We’re gonna have open marriages and multiple wives and all sorts of neat stuff that you’re just gonna LOVE! But don’t you worry Newt : NO nasty stoning of adulterers. I Promise! As for Santorum- he’ll make us a real fine preacher…in fact, we’ll make him Saint Santorum. And fix his Google search results. As for Mr. Obama, obviously, we’ll need to demonize him even further. “Severely!” And his dog too. Last but not least: Mitt and Ron, hey, just for you guys: we’ll insist on no taxes AT ALL for church members…and human sacrifice of illegal aliens. Televised. Whoooppee! What a country! :-)
ReplyDeleteBy the way, please don’t mention the REASON that Mitt Romney’s dad was born in Mexico (i.e. the fact that Mitt’s Mormon grand-dad LEFT the United States in the 1880’s and went to Mexico because laws against polygamy were passed in the U.S. ; Being a Mormon back then, Mitt’s grand-dad wanted to keep his multiple wives. Hey, who wouldn’t?) Bottom line: if we follow the “logic” of the people crying crocodile tears about a non-existent “war on religion”, then the U.S. should have allowed polygamy (and who knows what else) just because a particular religion claimed it as their belief. GIVE ME A BREAK!
Absolutely NO ONE is coming into our Churches or places of worship and trying to tell parishioners what to believe...or forcing them to use contraception. BUT If the Bishops (and other denominations) want to continue running businesses that employ millions of people of varying faiths -or no "faith" at all- THEN they must play by the same rules and rights that other workers enjoy...especially if their businesses use our tax dollars (and skip paying taxes) in the process. This is not a “war on religion”. It’s a war on women and men who simply want to plan their families and control their future.
"The Mormons are so devious they now basically are the Boy Scouts."
ReplyDeleteThat's true in my county. All the scout troops are run by Mormons. I couldn't find a place for my son without heavy religious overtones. We gave up. Fortunately, we found other things to do.
As for Gryph writing about rape, what exactly do you call it when a young teen is "offered" the opportunity to be impregnated by an all-powerful older man (as god always seems to be a man). I don't call it "choice". I call it pedophilia.
But as other writers have stated, the concept of a virgin birth vastly predates the first century of the modern era. However, many - such as some forms of Buddhism - appreciate that the "virgin" birth is into later spiritual consciousness, not the physical birth of a baby.
In the Christian tradition, I recall it was Luke who emphasized the virgin birth of Jesus. As a Greek, he had a cultural history of recognizing the divine birth of certain individuals, such as Alexander the Great. Been awhile since I studied the subject, so perhaps I err.
As for Gryph being on a roll as an open atheist (I perfer secularist as I am not against a god, just don't include any such concept in my life), I do cringe about some of his posts. He's not writing anything worse than I have heard from religion-prone folks attacking us "nonbelievers". I cringe because I know he's going to get pounded from some people who don't yet realize how we have people constantly judging us negatively for not buying into their beliefs - regardless of our actions and the lives we live - and cramming their thought patterns on us. Doesn't feel good or right when Gryph does it? Welcome to our world.
to Anonymous at 3:48 a.m.
ReplyDeleteAs for Gryph being on a roll as an open atheist (I perfer secularist as I am not against a god, just don't include any such concept in my life), I do cringe about some of his posts. He's not writing anything worse than I have heard from religion-prone folks attacking us "nonbelievers". I cringe because I know he's going to get pounded from some people who don't yet realize how we have people constantly judging us negatively for not buying into their beliefs - regardless of our actions and the lives we live - and cramming their thought patterns on us. Doesn't feel good or right when Gryph does it? Welcome to our world.
Agreed. With one small caveat:
If we decry behavior from the "right" then why on earth do we seem to emulate it so damned often? No doubt they absolutely "deserve" it, and often, but... I'd much rather determine my behavior by my rules than by theirs.
...I just don't want to give them that much power over me - that much credence - to make me alter my self, to match theirs (if I hate it, why would I wanna match it, eh?)
I hope that makes sense...
Anon 3:48: "As for Gryph writing about rape, what exactly do you call it when a young teen is "offered" the opportunity to be impregnated by an all-powerful older man (as god always seems to be a man). I don't call it "choice". I call it pedophilia."
ReplyDeleteIf you have to rewrite the story in such a smarmy and suggestive way to suit your purposes, then the rest of my post is probably going to be a waste of my time writing. I'm going to write it, anyway, because your characterization of God is so very lewd and twisted, I cannot let it stand.
- First off, it is very clear when sexual acts are described in the Bible. Certain wording is used, like "knew her" or "laid down with her." No wording of any sort is used in the account of Mary.
- Mary is clearly referred to as a virgin in the Bible after the conception takes place, which makes it impossible for her to have been a victim of rape.
- At no point in the Bible is there even a precedent of God raping anyone or any sort of characterization of God in a sexualized context.
- Any accounts of rape in the Bible are written in a negative context, at least the ones that come to my immediate mind. It is clearly frowned upon.
Some of you actually seem shocked that there are Christian progressives and Democrats, which is truly perplexing. Many of the most revered and effective progressives of their various times were/are Christians, like FDR, Jimmy Carter (even if he doesn't get any credit for some of the things he did as president), and of course, President Obama.
ReplyDeleteI could go on an on. MLK, Jr. The original Martin Luther. The Abolitionists. Just to name a few.
Also, some of the largest blocks of voters in the Democratic Party are deeply religious people, at least their majorities are. The majority of Latinos and African Americans are very devout people. I don't know about the majority of white Democratic voters, but I seem to remember it was over fifty percent the last time I saw some such number.
My point is that you do the progressive movement no favors with the constant Christian-bashing, at least not in the realm of politics. It's an uneasy enough coalition as it is, with so many different factions under one tent. In a way, your targeting Christians in the movement is similar to how the rightwing fundies demonize any moderates in the Republican party.
- "Mary is clearly referred to as a virgin in the Bible after the conception takes place, which makes it impossible for her to have been a victim of rape."
ReplyDeleteMary and Joe were ahead of their time and were the first IVF subjects.
also, consider that the fairy tales insist Mary was still a virgin after giving birth......much like Bristol.
ReplyDeleteImagine if I said I wanted to marry a 15 year old girl today, but insist that I would never have sex with her. Half would call me a pedophile, half would call me a closet homosexual. No one would call her the mother of God...
ReplyDeletejust sayin'.....
I'm just curious; where does it document the age of Mary when she was supposed to be pregnant with Jesus? 15 years old is a new one to me.
ReplyDelete