I have serious problems with people who claim that the only reason they are moral is because of a fear of God. What does that say about who we are as human beings, if that is what it takes to make us do good in the world?
Saturday, March 31, 2012
I think I have just found the new motto for Atheists.
I have serious problems with people who claim that the only reason they are moral is because of a fear of God. What does that say about who we are as human beings, if that is what it takes to make us do good in the world?
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Amen!! Did you see this - Mark Begich voted w/ rethugs? http://thinkprogress.org/green/2012/03/29/454789/senate-republicans-protect-big-oil-subsidies-as-their-gasoline-profits-soar/
ReplyDeleteI'm in total agreement w/you. I'm an atheist in a very conservative county. Sure, there is some charity through a consortium of churches offering monetary help w/utilities and rent, food and a very inexpensive thrift store (which I frequent, being poor myself on SS alone, and it being a good way to recycle), but it is sort of like an after thought, part of christian dogma's exhortation to "be charitable." That doesn't cut it for most of the poor around here who are in pretty dire straits--a good microcosm here of the haves and have nots, with people living in broken down trailers and others in very expensive lakeside houses.
ReplyDeleteI would say chronic socio-economic division is everyone's problem, and far more complex than simply blaming it on rich Christians (or Jews or Muslims or Hindus) - and making assumptions about what anyone might be doing, or are not doing, about the issue.
DeleteThe entrenched poverty this country continues to see is due to corporate and government policy - and greed. The rich get richer, the poor stay poor. There are people of all faiths in that rich category, as I said. And there are sure as shootin' plenty of Atheists in the rich category, as well.
I worked with Samaritan's Purse doing tornado clean up last May. They were pretty much the only game in town in being organized to do relief work. For the first month I was able to skirt the religious aspect. However, it got to the point where we were doing clean-ups that were not related to the tornado disaster for the purpose of sucking people into the church.
ReplyDeleteOne of my last days on the job our crew had to retarp a roof belonging to a devout Baptist lady. This lady's church did the initial tarping which resulted in doing more damage to the roof than the tornado did. In conversation with this woman I commented on how lucky she was to have suffered so little damage. I said how we had just been in an adjoining community and there was such total devastation. This good Christian woman said under her breath to me, "Yes, but they are all trash out there."
That was my sign it was time to leave.
Presenting the most unfortunate examples of hypocrisy and sheer evil does not define any faith.
DeleteYou usually provide great food for thought, Gryphen, but you're don't always come off looking so wise when it comes to atheism. Being an atheist doesn't automatically make someone a good person. Not all atheists would embrace this "motto." Actually, Christ put forth the same humanitarian thoughts in his teachings. Real Christians try to live their lives accordingly--not out of fear, but out of love. I have the same problem with atheists as I do with religious fanatics. They're all SO SURE they've got it figured out. Agnostics who spend their lives seeking the truth, I admire. Atheists, not so much.
ReplyDeleteWow, thank you, I was going to write something very similar.
DeleteTo say you are a Christian, you are saying that you are choosing to live in accordance with the ways of Christ - the simplest being: Treat Others As You Would Want To Be Treated.
That is an expectation of a certain moral conduct. (This has nothing to do with how Well these Christians follow it; that does not Negate what Christ taught/lived)
To say you are an atheist is a statement of belief that has NOTHING to do with your morality or personal code of conduct.
And, we *all* learned right and wrong when we were little.
But, well, people learn when they get older that they can do things that make THEM feel good while hurting other people. And sometimes, they decide that's the way to go.
You had Brad Pitt up a bit ago b/c you liked his philosophy on life.
Brad Pitt cheated on his wife; he broke his wedding vows which are a PROMISE to do the RIGHT thing by his Best Friend.
He CHOSE to cheat b/c it made him happy.
Is that the "right" thing to do?
No. There is no way you can say cheating on your spouse is the "right" thing to do.
[And please, no one write back that he WAITED to hook up with AJ; their kid was BORN less than 9 months after JA & BP split up]
Also, wanted to add that "real Christians" do act out of love and not fear.
DeleteThere's a commercial that has one person doing a kind act that ripples throughout and soon each kind act results in another kind act.
That is the premise of Christianity. Helping other people feels good, because it IS the Right thing to do.
hmmmm.....I do all those things, for those exact reasons, yet I still pray to God when I need a little inspiration or encouragement or even to give thanks when something amazing happens. But then, my God is a loving counselor, not a vengeful, homophobic Titan who sits in judgement on a mountaintop waiting to hurl thunderbolts at those who slight Him. (gee, that sounds familiar...)
ReplyDeleteMaybe the Mayans are right after all and the world as we know it has flipped--the Atheists are behaving like Christians should, and well, we know how certain "Christians" are acting.
It's all right there in the christmas song...
ReplyDelete"Be good for goodness sake"
One of the first things one learns in ethics is that religion is by no means a substitute (nor necessarily an analog) for for morality.
ReplyDeleteThe graphic makes that point quite eloquently.
"What is the use of trying to expose lies when people love them and live in them? It is their own affair. But I am tired of lying. There are enough lies without mine." P. D. Ouspensky
ReplyDeleteMy man philhellenes gets it right once again:
Dust That Sings
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9nnwvoH-4XI
Great, I'll be looking for the atheist homeless shelters, prison missions, food banks, and soup kitchens to be opening up very soon in my area - the ones that already exist and are run by Christian groups could really use the extra help.
ReplyDeleteI had no idea they were only doing this work so they wouldn't go to hell...
Sarcasm aside, is it really necessary to tear down the good work of others - and make such a broad and disparaging assumption about their motivations - just to compare one's own cause in a better light? It's really no different, even if coming from an atheist perspective, than sanctimonious rightwing fundies who are always blasting others.
I would also remind people that Mother Theresa, MLK Jr, Ghandi, Cesar Chavez, a good deal of the abolitionists, and many other famous humanitarians were devout followers of a faith.
I tried to work in the Christian ministry I talked about above (I was a food stamp eligibility worker in a previous life). However, the churchy volunteers w/whom I worked did a lot of put downs of those coming in the door ("I went to HS w/her, she's just trashy and looking for a handout", etc.) and talk about their upcoming cruises, etc. The judgmental attitudes completely turned me off and I left after a few days.
DeleteThat's terrible. I might have left myself. But not before penning a letter to whoever headed the organization up and telling them they had some volunteers who were representing Christianity in a very un-Christian way!
DeleteBut the truth is, there are similar attitudes from people who work in government social services agencies. I still support such agencies, though, because I know not everyone that works at them has let their hearts harden so. And there is a need for what they're doing, too.
It's really wonderful that you sought out such work, though. I hope the experience didn't permanently discourage you.
It's really no different, even if coming from an atheist perspective, than sanctimonious rightwing fundies who are always blasting others.
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Agreed!
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Atheists will always hold the moral high ground because when they do good for others, they are doing it because it is right, NOT because they expect to be rewarded in the afterlife or fear burning in the fiery pits of hell for eternity.
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So, you just made a SWEEPING moral judgment (how very...Atheist of you) about people who are ACTIVELY helping other people EVERY DAY - saying they are doing it out of FEAR of punishment and a reward from the "Great Beyond"?
You're saying you're better than them.
How does THAT make you a BETTER person?????
You said you've studied, Gryphen, but I find that the more scholarly someone is, the more they realize...how little they know.
Peace man.
It's definitely being provocative to say that Christians only do good things for a reward, or to avoid going to hell.
ReplyDeleteI shouldn't even dignify it with a comment, and there's lots more I could say on that because this kind of thing outrages me.
Everything described in the top section are Christian practice.
The bottom section not only misrepresents our faith, but it demonstrates the primary weakness of the Atheist credo, imo - self-aggrandizement. I, I, I. The supremacy of the human intellect.
No humility whatsoever. Total certainty.
Fine to think you have all the answers, but you don't. You are mortal like I am, and you have absolutely no idea what happens after death, just like me.
I do not spend any time trying to convert Atheists to my way of thinking and believing, either. I certainly don't attack them for their beliefs.
Yeah, there was something about this post that reminded me of rightwing fundies who crab about government social services agencies, and say all charity should be voluntary.
DeleteWhy can't these two extreme groups just be grateful there is a combination of effort - both public, private, religious - working to combat our serious social problems?
No humility! That's it!
DeleteWhat G has yet to understand, is that when you have faith, you have to give up certainty. You have to give up Proof. You have to give up your EGO.
It's an inner peace that no one can ever take away.
They can mock it and ridicule you (which shows just how kind and moral *those* people are...),
but it's yours.
Yours to have with you as you make your way through this very difficult life.
There is no promise that faith will keep you from pain or heartache, but there is a promise that you will never be alone. And, you KNOW it. You FEEL it. And you are able to MAKE IT THROUGH.
And hopefully, you're able to help someone else. You have a long life ahead.
You are setting up a false either/or situation.
ReplyDelete"Atheists will always hold the moral high ground because when they do good for others, they are doing it because it is right..."
What utter nonsense. An atheist, like anyone else, may do the right thing simply (or only) because it is advantageous for him/her to do so. Likewise, a believer may do the right thing because it is the right thing to do, not because God told them to or they are afraid of punishment or looking for a reward.
I have known and dealt with atheist fundamentalists and they are every bit as obnoxious. arrogant, and condescending as fundamentalist believers.
I am not sure of anything and as a result I am always stumbling across thought-provoking and inspiring perspectives from many points of view.
I don't care to listen to christianist right-wingers twisting Jesus's teaching into hateful self-centeredness, nor do I care for those who sneer at others, contemptuously reducing the complexity of their wonderment at the universe and search for meaning into nothing but a belief in "sky-fairies", etc.
Well Said! :)
DeleteGryphen, Thank You for sharing this beautiful tenet to live by.
ReplyDeleteI have placed a copy of this tenet in my wallet.
I have also placed a copy of it in my heart.
(I am not an Atheist, but I do love learning the higher teachings of any group.)
Who says irony is dead...long live atheism's Alaskan Creed. Can a "propaganda fidei" movement be far behind?
ReplyDeletePlus ca change, eh?
"Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."
ReplyDelete-Steve Weinberg
I'm not an atheist, but I maintain my faith in God and eternity personally; I don't really talk about it (except I am right now). I was raised Catholic, and parted ways as a young adult as a result of my relationship with a fine man to whom I'm still married (47 years) and a really nasty confrontation with a confessional priest.
ReplyDeleteThat aside, the spirit moves me to do for others what I can, when I can. The most recent example is at our local grocery store.
Since last fall before Thanksgiving, they have been offering packed, stapled-together bags of groceries for shoppers to buy, to donate to the local food bank. They make it very convenient, setting the bags out on tables near the check-out aisles or on the apron of the check-out counter.
I've bought half a dozen or more bags since last fall (I haven't kept count). Yesterday, as has happened several times before, I shoved one bag onto the conveyor belt intending to buy it, and the guy ahead of me said, "did you mean to do that?" as if I'd made a mistake. "Yes, I did" (I wondered at the motivation behind his question, since he didn't buy one himself, but clearly knew what they were for)
Then the checker girl asked me if I was buying the bag, as if it was a common error for customers instead of a frequent charitable donation. I was thinking, "Geez, do I look stupid? What's so unusual about donating to the food bank?"
Especially since I'm a year-rounder in the community, not a vacationer or just passing through. We have a LOT of homeless wanderers passing through our town; and many tents set up at a local campground all summer long. I'm sure some of them are served by the local food bank. There but for the grace of God...
Sorry, this was a very un-atheistic comment, but one doesn't have to be either a kind thoughtful atheist -- or at the other end of the spectrum, a dogmatic unchristian selfish fundamentalist evangelical like the subject of a lot of blog entries here at IM (that's you, Sarah, and your pimp husband and your awful children).
Thanks, Kajo. Your experience reminded me of a food bank I worked for (non religious). A local butcher gave a donation of "Hilal" meats, which was graciously accepted with a smile, then tossed into the trash with ammonia poured on it. "Hilal" is a practice that's similar to "Kosher" that the animal be blessed then killed mericifully and treated with reverence and thanksgiving. It didn't make any sense to me whatsoever that perfectly good food meant for the needy was unceremoniously tossed because of ignorance.
DeleteIt was difficult for me to go back and help, but I figured forgiving and moving on would help others (and fwitw, I'm an Atheist/humanitarian).
And my favorite quote is "I know God only gives me what I can handle, but sometimes I wish he didn't trust me so much"
Spoken by Mother Teresa of Calcutta, later cannonized a Saint. no less.
In my own personal opinion Atheists will always hold the moral high ground because when they do good for others, they are doing it because it is right, NOT because they expect to be rewarded in the afterlife or fear burning in the fiery pits of hell for eternity.
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I consider my an athiest for all intents and I find the above statement ridiculous.
http://listverse.com/2010/06/05/10-people-who-give-atheism-a-bad-name/
Why should atheists be any different than any other group?
DeleteI'll bet there's a top ten people who give Christians a bad name that could put that atheist list to shame.
Probably with Hitler in the #1. spot.
Atheism is no different. Just because you're an atheist doesn't guarantee you'll be any better than anyone espousing any religion, just as claiming to be of a certain religion doesn't guarantee you'll behave better than someone who is not. Atheism is a matter of self-reflection and discipline. Christianity uses a carrot and stick.
I think there's a lot to be said for Wicca.
I like this. I also liked Adam Savage from "Myth Buster's" speech at the Reason rally last week. I can't remember if I saw the clip here or on the news. It's awesome. A must see.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1nSuWztIrY
Well, I could say the exact same thing except for the last line. I am not an atheist. I am a Lutheran.
ReplyDeleteI'm just not a very good one.
what you said.
DeleteExcept I am a Methodist.
I am not a good Methodist as such, but I am a good follower of the Gospels.
Non Christians tend to judge all of us by the bad ones.
It's called prejudice.
I repeat for the zillionth time. If a person has to explain that they are a Christian, they really aren't one, except in their own mind.
I really dislike that logo. The stylized letter "A" looks too much like a coiled snake -- a very old symbol for both the devil and the darker, "forbidden" side of sexuality, and the red background reinforces that. To me, it sends a message that I don't think you want to send (even if the words of the logo contradict it), that those who reject the worship of God worship Satan instead.
ReplyDeleteIf someone feels no need for religious belief, or finds there is no real evidence for a God he or she can worship, fine. But some people who lose their faith are left with childish anger that Daddy In The Sky wasn't there and didn't deliver as promised. They express that anger by "offending" the God they deny, or attacking the faith of others. Like too many proselytizers for religion, they are more concerned with their own insecurity and/or group identity than with the other person's soul.
Funny. The first thing that entered my mind was Hester's Scarlet Letter. I'm sure that wasn't the intent of the logo either.
DeleteI like the graphic a lot. And I like that your post has made a lot of people think, which is a good thing.
ReplyDeleteI'm an atheist who doesn't feel my humanitarian acts need defending nor explanation, because it's not about me, it's about other people. I don't feel the need to "cast stones" at people of faith nor people of no faith (but I find it odd that people of faith feel the need to cast stones at me because I don't conform to their beliefs. My atheism has never been "tested" by atheists, and it won't be "tested" by believers either).
I love these posts, especially some of the comments they generate, but if we all take a moment and reflect, there's more we have in common than what seems to divide us. Good is Good no matter how we parse it.
Actually,according to the Christian doctrine,being a huge prick doesn't matter,all you have to do is have faith.All you have to do is have faith and you would enter the "gates of heaven".Being a Christian,you can refuse to do good deeds all your life if you wanted to,but they choose to do good deeds.Ignorance is loud,and annoying. ---An agnostic---
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