When we accept that all of our answers are written in a book instead of embedded in the natural world and space around us we fail to meet our true potential as human beings.
Friday, June 08, 2012
Just a little food for thought about the impact of religion on the advancement of science.
When we accept that all of our answers are written in a book instead of embedded in the natural world and space around us we fail to meet our true potential as human beings.
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Speaking of science- here is an article I found today.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/47739029/ns/local_news-anchorage_ak/#.T9I5OrXX8rw
Global population just passed 7 billion and is expected to reach 9.3 billion or more by 2050.
"By the year 2070, we'll live in a hotter world than it's been since humans evolved as a species," Barnosky said.
Increased carbon dioxide in the atmosphere from the burning of fossil fuels is making the ocean more acidic, and less hospitable to sea life. By midcentury, humans could have altered more than half the world's land surface.
The swiftness of climate change is likely to outpace the ability of species to adapt, especially as natural habitat becomes more fragmented, Barnosky said.
The consequences usually included mass species extinction, altered food webs and the emergence of new dominant species.
To avert a grim future, or at least make it less grim, the paper calls for significant reductions in world population growth and per-capita resource use, more efficient energy use, less reliance on fossil fuels and stepped-up efforts to protect the parts of Earth that have so far escaped human dominance.
So true. The human population on the planet is staggeringly out of proportion to the amount of space needed to sustain it. I mourn the loss of habitat for wilderness to sustain all of us. But especially I mourn the innocents — the flora and fauna that had no say. And when I meet people who feel it their right to have so many children I am overcome with sadness any human could feel so entitled. Joe Miller and Sarah Palin are the political embodiment of such a skewed and entitled mind frame. One wonders if they have any idea about basic science.
DeleteThe next "mass extinction" will be humans. Why should we be any different than any other species that shares our planet? Granted, we will have brought this upon ourselves through CO2 increase from fossil fuels and actually degrading the air that we breathe, and through overpopulation of our species. The Mother Earth takes care of herself and through means meant to decrease our population she will try to right what is wrong. I don't ever think, that even with our big brains and engineering technology will we humans ever enjoy as long a run on Earth as did the dinosaurs. I give us, in our present technology-driven form about another 5,000 years, and it will get ugly for us in less than a hundred years. Think about it; the rocks that we walk on, some are over 500 million years to one billion years old! The Dinos had a 300 million year run on this planet. There is no way that we can keep proliferating at our current rate and continue to degrade the basic biosphere and expect any more than a few hundred years. I guess that as humans, we lived large, burned brightly but burned out quickly. There is no other way to project what our future is. I hope that space travel keeps pace with terrestrial technologies because the only future for the human race is to establish small extraplanetary colonies that keep our genome alive, we will ruin whatever new home we find but that is our nature. Earth will heal, the species that are more resilient than us will heal and Earth will travel around the sun minus humans for another 5 billion years until the sun is gone. We are not going to be part of that extended journey because we are greedy and we are not good stewards of our environment.
DeleteGryphen, I hate to piss on your barbecue, but your argument - and Tyson's, to the extent that he actually makes it - that all religions thwart the expansion of knowledge doesn't really square with the facts.
ReplyDeleteHow do you think that it was that Europe was able to emerge from the Middle Ages and burst forth into that explosion of intellectual discovery that was the Renaissance? It was because of Islamic scholars that had the good sense to preserve many of the books and treatises on math, history, philosophy, and proto-science that regressive Christians sought to destroy.
I agree that religion is just as likely - possibly more - to be an agent of destruction, ignorance, and hateful tribalism than an agent of good, however, Muslim scholars are the ones who rescued Europeans from their own ignorant folly.
In this case, religion was a good thing.
It depends upon the religion and the interpretation of that religion at any one point in time. Most modern religions do not put stress upon learning, questioning, possibly accepting evidence that contradicts a scripture holy to that religion.
DeleteOpen, inquiring minds are rare, and religions comprised of such are rarer still.
I'm with Gasman here on all counts.
DeleteIn the complexity that we call life, when we choose and point to one *thing* as the cause of some aspect of that complexity, it is almost certainly a simplification, obscuring the path to greater knowledge. *Science* - unspecified, as though it has always had the same scope and parameters - stagnated because of Christianity in what we like to call the Dark Ages is such a simplification. The Dark Ages, btw was an expression used in the 1330s by Petrarch, the Italian scholar, to refer to the decline of Latin literature, before being picked up later as a derogatory term for a period of history.
For anyone interested in the history - http://www.st-edmunds.cam.ac.uk/faraday/CIS/Numbers/index.html - provides video and audio lectures by Ronald Numbers (professor at Cambridge University), who says: Notions such as: “the rise of Christianity killed off ancient science”, “the medieval Christian Church suppressed the growth of the natural sciences”, “the medieval Christians thought that the world was flat”, and “the Church prohibited autopsies and dissections during the Middle Ages” [are] examples of widely popular myths that still pass as historical truth, even though they are not supported by historical research.
The university I went to in Europe was founded during the Middle Ages. Natural philosophy or natural science was one of the key subjects taught at medieval universities - think Thomas Aquinas, Albert the Great and Nicole Oresme. In fact, this is a fascinating period of history, rich in ideas and well worth discovering and not reducing to a conflict between science and religion long rejected by historians of the period.
Agreed, Alisa, and thank you for your link and comment. I look forward to delving further.
DeleteThis is what I like most about Gryphen's blog, the added value commenters bring and the links that lead me to learn more are invaluable.
"Imagine the people who believe such things and who are not ashamed to ignore, totally, all the patient findings of thinking minds through all the centuries since the Bible was written. And it is these ignorant people, the most uneducated, the most unimaginative, the most unthinking among us, who would make themselves the guides and leaders of us all; who would force their feeble and childish beliefs on us; who would invade our schools and libraries and homes. I personally resent it bitterly."
ReplyDelete— Isaac Asimov
In The Roving Mind (1983)
"Simple molecules combine to make powerful chemicals. Simple cells combine to make powerful life-forms. Simple electronics combine to make powerful computers. Logically, all things are created by a combination of simpler, less capable components. Therefore, a supreme being must be in our future, not our origin. What if "God" is the consciousness that will be created when enough of us are connected by the Internet?!!'
ReplyDelete— Scott Adams
Thoughts by character Dogbert in Dilbert cartoon strip (11 Feb 1996).
Love these posts.....Neil deGrasse Tyson is wonderful...Hitchens is too abrasive, disrespectful and full of himself to change minds or inspire free thinking the way Tyson does...not that I disagree with much of what Hitchens says...it's just that an a$$hole like him only makes folks resist and dig in further.
ReplyDeleteLove these posts.....Neil deGrasse Tyson is wonderful...Hitchens is too abrasive, disrespectful and full of himself to change minds or inspire free thinking the way Tyson does...not that I disagree with much of what Hitchens says...it's just that an a$$hole like him only makes folks resist and dig in further.
ReplyDeleteHitchens is DEAD! Who is the asshole now.
DeleteThat would still be you, rectal dysfunction!
DeleteHitchens? Dead yes; however, his writings did not go away.
Wiki is your friend
Deletehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Hitchens
I agree with Martha. I could watch and listen to Dr Tyson all day long. I could take Hitchens (the person)in small doses, but reading his work shows how brilliantly his mind works.
'The Religion that is afraid of science dishonours God and commits suicide. It acknowledges that it is not equal to the whole of truth, that it legislates, tyrannizes over a village of God's empires but is not the immutable universal law. Every influx of atheism, of skepticism is thus made useful as a mercury pill assaulting and removing a diseased religion and making way for truth."
ReplyDelete— Ralph Waldo Emerson
(4 Mar 1831). In William H. Gilman (ed.) The Journals and Miscellaneous Notebooks of Ralph Waldo Emerson: Vol III, 1826-1832 (1963), 239.
"At the heart of science is an essential balance between two seemingly contradictory attitudes--an openness to new ideas, no matter how bizarre or counter-intuitive they may be, and the most ruthless skeptical scrutiny of all ideas, old and new. This is how deep truths are winnowed from deep nonsense." -- Carl Sagan
ReplyDelete"Since religion intrinsically rejects empirical methods, there should never be any attempt to reconcile scientific theories with religion. [An infinitely old universe, always evolving may not be compatible with the Book of Genesis. However, religions such as Buddhism get along without having any explicit creation mythology and are in no way contradicted by a universe without a beginning or end.] Creatio ex nihilo, even as religious doctrine, only dates to around AD 200. The key is not to confuse myth and empirical results, or religion and science."
ReplyDelete— Hannes Alfvén
Quoted in Anthony L. Peratt, 'Dean of the Plasma Dissidents', Washington Times, supplement: The World and I (May 1988),196.
The Arabic age of enlightenment that Tyson talks about took place in the Christian Dark Ages but doesn't rate a place on the scientific advancement chart. And Egyptians and Greeks weren't Christians, so...I have problems with the chart.
ReplyDelete"When Benjamin Franklin invented the lightning-rod, the clergy, both in England and America, with the enthusiastic support of George III, condemned it as an impious attempt to defeat the will of God. For, as all right-thinking people were aware, lightning is sent by God to punish impiety or some other grave sin—the virtuous are never struck by lightning. Therefore if God wants to strike any one, Benjamin Franklin [and his lightning-rod] ought not to defeat His design; indeed, to do so is helping criminals to escape. But God was equal to the occasion, if we are to believe the eminent Dr. Price, one of the leading divines of Boston. Lightning having been rendered ineffectual by the 'iron points invented by the sagacious Dr. Franklin,' Massachusetts was shaken by earthquakes, which Dr. Price perceived to be due to God's wrath at the 'iron points.' In a sermon on the subject he said,' In Boston are more erected than elsewhere in New England, and Boston seems to be more dreadfully shaken. Oh! there is no getting out of the mighty hand of God.' Apparently, however, Providence gave up all hope of curing Boston of its wickedness, for, though lightning-rods became more and more common, earthquakes in Massachusetts have remained rare."
ReplyDelete— Bertrand Russell
In An Outline of Intellectual Rubbish (1943), 6-7..
Catholicism is responsible for the Dark Ages, not Christianity. The Bible encourages study and preservation of nature. Catholicism isn't Christianity, it is a hybrid of paganism and the judeochristian traditions.
ReplyDeleteSorry to disagree but the pagan beliefs are earth based and are much more in line with respect for the earth and fellow man than any christian belief. Catholicism is a cult - one of the most evil in the history of the world. They killed millions in the "name of God" and continue today to maim humanity with their teachings and actions against their own people. There's not one damn redeeming quality in that church.
DeleteMy son rightly points out that without the dark ages we would be much farther along in society than we are today, esp in technology - or as he points out, we would have exterminated ourselves by now.
DeleteTo lostinmn: fundamentalist Catholicism doesn't have a lot to speak well for it, but doesn't that apply to all fundamentalist sects, irrespective of the general faith?
DeleteTo brand all Catholics as cultists is the same as to condemn all Christians or Muslims when it truly is the narrow-minded fanatics that shed a negative light on their religions.
Agnostics and atheists generally do not condemn all believers, but respond negatively to those believers who attack them and their right to not believe
Tolerance for those who have faith and for those who do not should be the touchstone, particularly in a society whose foundational documents stressed freedom of religion, which has been interpreted and held also includes the freedom from religion in things secular. Having government behave as a secular entity avoids preferring one faith over another and encourages us all to regard each other (believers and non-believers) as equal citizens.
Obviously, lostinmn, you have must have had some unfortunate experiences with the Catholic church or one of its fanatical groups, but there are mainstream Catholics who do not push their faith on others and who live meaningful, productive lives without intruding on others.
I am a non-affiliated person, but I respect believers if they respect my non-belief. If "do onto others as you would have them do onto you" were the standard of all believers and non-believers, our world might actually come close to peace. No one should be persecuted for their faith or lack of it.
@lostinmn- many pagan religions worship nature, yes. But I was referring to the holidays, idol worship and other elements of paganism that the Catholic Church incorporated into its doctrine.
DeleteGryph, when you were in school (elem - HS) didn't you ever stop an say a little prayer before a test to get a good grade? Have no idea if you even went to college, but did you pray to get a good grade on an exam? If I didn't study, I never expected God to pass the test for me, but I hoped I had learned enough and he might just help me remember something I had learned on the subject so I wouldn't fail!
ReplyDeleteI was in an auto accident that almost took my life. I could have laid in that hospital bed and never gotten better, but I prayed for the strength to get better. I never get into a car that I don't say a little prayer to make it a safe trip...be it to the store or across the country. I know God isn't behind the wheel, but it keeps me focused to keep my eyes on the road and not be thinking about other things. Asking for help, strength and wisdom isn't from above, but keeps me focused. It was comfort to me when I've lost a loved one. I like to think when I pass on I will rejoin my loved ones where there is no pain and hate. It helps me to be kinder and more gentle to my fellow man. It helps me to turn the other cheek when I am in anger and want to do something I will be sorry for. Please don't group us all as the crazy Evangelicals that want to control every ones lives as we are now witnessing.
Many successful, educated people also have a deep faith in God. It has given them strength to succeed and do good for others. Why are atheists so hateful to people who have faith? We are not all bad people? We don't have to put people down to make us feel good. We don't have to be macho to be more powerful over others. I don't like to judge people by their "religion" but by their deeds and kindness to others. Our family has many religions, and we all get along. You don't have any religion but I'm getting tired of you putting down the ones that do. If you want others to respect you, you need to respect others for their beliefs. If you want to eat fish on Friday, fine, just don't put down someone who uses this to belief to re-enforce their beliefs. We must be sure that one religious belief doesn't make laws that we must do as they do. Separation of church and state. I don't want laws that say I can't believe in God either. Sarah Palin used her "religion" to buy votes. Sarah Palin made a lot of money with her "religion". Sarah Palin did not convert us. Sarah Palin does not represent what a Christian is by her acts and deeds. Sarah Palin lies. That is why we of all beliefs followed you to make sure sure we wouldn't get anyone with her beliefs in office. I didn't follow you because you are an atheist. I have tolerated that. Please tolerate the rest of us and our beliefs. Some of us have studied science and can separate it from God.
Some of us were not raised with "a god" to pray to. For those of us raised Agnostic or Atheist, praying isn't an option, for to whom would we pray? As an Atheist I don't look "down" on anyone that has a personal god or a religion that lends support to their journey through this life. I can't speak for Gryphen, but as a child I was taught to be tolerant of everyone's beliefs until their beliefs ran counter to actual science or until those with believers went out of their way to try to impart their beliefs into my life. Believe whatever you have to to make your journey through your brief life have meaning; you'll find no counter from this Atheist.
DeleteWhy are atheists so hateful to people who have faith?
DeleteNow who's generalizing?
You went on to write:
I don't like to judge people by their "religion" but by their deeds and kindness to others.
Does it not occur to you that many atheists do the same?
I like your realization that prayer focuses your mind. Focusing one's mind is the key to materializing the help you need. It could indeed be, that both Jesus and Buddha (and many other religious leaders) in various ways at various times "the kingdom of God is within you" - meaning that we hold the key to success, failure and hope within us. Whether that key is divine or inherently human doesn't matter. If it works to your benefit and to those of others - then that private prayer/focus can good. Likewise, if your prayer/focus in selfish or hateful, then it becomes destructive both for you or others.
DeleteLike that say, whatever floats your boat - as long as you do not seek to navigate the boats of others.
Why are we so "hateful" to you?
DeleteYa'll go out of your way to lie about, abuse and deny rights to anyone who doesn't agree with your beliefs. We get treated like trash, and you not only enjoy doing so, but you claim you're doing it out of some moral high ground.
But when we call you out on it, we're being hateful, intolerant and bigoted?
Please look in the mirror.
Polls of Americans always show that non-believers are down there with prostitutes and drug dealers in their esteem, and no atheist will be elected to a major office. So that may explain the chip that atheists seem to have on their shoulders about people of "faith."
DeleteCan we all just get along?
DeleteI'm an atheist who learned the power of forgiveness and unconditional love. I forgave the Roman Catholic Church for formally excommunicating me, and learned unconditional love from my friends and family of all faiths.
I'm intolerant of people of faith who are intolerant of my Atheism. I accept all people of faith who accept my Atheism.
I don't go around trying to "recruit" or "change" other people, but it's not fun to have my atheism equated with evil and sin.
Wait a minute. Don't blame the Bible, don't blame all Christians.
ReplyDeleteHere's a video I offer in response:
The Islamic Connection (to Rome and Catholicism)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDBRPF9uCYk&feature=related
A Jesuit priest, Alberto Rivera, claimed that Cardinal Bea, the Jesuit General, personally instructed him in the origin of Islam. According to Rivera, the Roman Catholic Church started Islam on purpose to take the Arabs under their control, and to secure Jerusalem.
The Church of Rome was first and wanted to eradicate the Christians.
The professor on this video shows many symbols used by both religions. The throne that the pope sits on has an upside down cross. The Koran demotes Jesus Christ while having similarities to Catholicism. Also, the professor shows connections of both to secret societies.
There has been a religious war since Jesus Christ died on the cross, to kill Christ followers.
And to Gryphen, I just posted a bit above as an Atheist that is supportive of those that have a belief system, but you also as a person must not just take the word of scientists as the gospel truth. Studying science oneself, through education and evaluation and actual first-hand knowledge is the only way that I personally can be certain that science is not just that which is written in a book and accepted blindly as truth. Lack of scientific education and acceptance of the "word as truth" of scientists is just as blind as is basing your life model on a 2000-year old book of "rules to live life by". Never stop learning and never stop educating yourself regarding the world that we live in and the mechanics by which it operates. Scientific facts "evolve" over time; we still don't understand 98% of our universe; we do not have the scientific tools to explain Dark Matter. We understand, through science 2% of our surrounding universe. As far as terrestrial matters go, scientists just discovered that seals in Antarctica dive to 6500 feet and are using them to map the seafloor around that continent. We don't understand much about the world around us and as an Atheist you should also be a proactive human scientist and never stop learning and studying and finding answers to the riddles the surround our lives. Don't take science at its word, no more than you would blindly adhere to biblical explanations. We don't have all of the answers, but blind allegiance to existing science is equal to blind allegiance to the bible. Just my opinion, I think about this stuff a lot and spent many years in school, but much of what I learned in college has been disproven by advanced science in many, many instances. Keep learning and never become complacent! I always love where you are coming from in these types of exploratory blogposts, but I also encourage you to spend much more time reading and learning and less time relying on other's links for your blogposts.
ReplyDeleteThank you! We must never stop learning! The GOP is trying to curtail education and push their values on to us. They have now latched on to taxes to pay for their charter schools so they can control our minds and beliefs. This has to stop. If they want to teach religion, it should not come from our taxes! Are the Catholic schools trying to get taxes also? What public funding pays for their Universities/Colleges? Or any private institution? Does this give them the right to control birth control for their employees? How can they be tax exempt and use their religious beliefs for insurance coverage?
DeleteO/T - Maria Litman has posted a Petition to demand an investigation of the prostitution ring involving Todd Palin - Please sign it and spread it -
ReplyDeleteThe throne that the pope sits on has an upside down cross.
ReplyDeleteThe upside-down cross symbolizes Saint Peter. The pope is said to be the lineal successor of Saint Peter.
From the Wikipedia entry for Saint Peter:
Peter is said to have been crucified under Emperor Nero, the cross being upside down at his own request since he saw himself unworthy to be crucified in the same way as Jesus Christ.
I've known that for about sixty years. Don't they teach kids anything these days? :-)
Oops. The above was meant to be a reply to Anonymous 11:51 AM
DeleteThe Church of Rome has routinely imported pagan practices into their doctrine, their rituals, and their symbols for centuries, simply giving them Christian names. The Pope now carries a bent cross crucifix, a sinister symbol created by the satanists in the sixth century to depict anti Messiah and his mark of the beast. That bent cross was revived by Vatican Two.
DeleteThe story of Peter being crucified upside down is not in the Bible. This tradition originates with Origen in the third century. There is no reliable evidence that any Christian was crucified upside down. The Bible records only the death of James, Acts 12:2.
O/T Please go to Malia Litman's blog and sign her petition regarding Todd Palin and David Chaney.
ReplyDeleteAlso speaking of religion:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/08/obama-effigy-hanged-outside-church_n_1581272.html
Obama Effigy Hanged Outside Church
PMom_GA
What a disturbing photo. Just when you think things can't get more incendiary, along comes a "Pastor" from hell to prove you wrong.
DeleteI hope they make an example of this guy, it's got to stop somewhere.
Dr. Tyson's field is astronomy, G is a blogger, and while they're both good at what they do, neither one is a philosopher or historian, so I take their comments for what they're worth. Interesting, maybe with some valid points, and at least a little bit personally biased.
ReplyDeleteThat chart wasn't produced by any brain trust. Anon, at 10:51, it's not you who has problems with the chart--it's the chart. Made for simpletons by simpletons.
"When we accept that all of our answers are written in a book instead of embedded in the natural world and space around us we fail to meet our true potential as human beings."
ReplyDelete...and by extension, I would argue, as Christians as well.
ALERT, just heard on the radio on way home that the Secret Service has issued emails requesting any other info re their agents and prostitutes. Oh please, please how do we get more info out.
ReplyDeleteI didn't see anything about emails or requests. Where did you hear that?
DeleteYou did sign Malia Litman's petition?
Vince Palamara has been writing on the Secret Service for years.
"The Secret Service, like Caesar’s wife, must be above suspicion at all times.
That’s why Secret Service Director Sullivan should be relieved of command."
http://vincepalamara.com/2012/05/30/on-duty-247/
On duty, 24/7
Posted on May 30, 2012
The Party Animals at the Secret Circus
http://vincepalamara.com/2012/05/30/the-party-animals-at-the-secret-circus/
O/T Woodward and Bernstein: 40 years after Watergate, Nixon was far worse than we thought
ReplyDeleteBy Carl Bernstein and Bob Woodward, Friday, June 8, 10:35 AM
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/woodward-and-bernstein-40-years-after-watergate-nixon-was-far-worse-than-we-thought/2012/06/08/gJQAlsi0NV_story.html
Ervin’s answer to his own question hints at the magnitude of Watergate: “To destroy, insofar as the presidential election of 1972 was concerned, the integrity of the process by which the President of the United States is nominated and elected.” Yet Watergate was far more than that. At its most virulent, Watergate was a brazen and daring assault, led by Nixon himself, against the heart of American democracy: the Constitution, our system of free elections, the rule of law.
I like Neil too, but I think he missed the mark. As the comments on the video say:
ReplyDelete"I'm sorry, but this is completely false. During this period, Baghdad was a Muslim city which was largely free, where ideas were freely exchanged mainly between Muslims of different sects and philosophies, but also freethinkers, Jews and Christians, as he mentions in his video. So how exactly was it the effect of Islam that damaged it, if it was a primarily Muslim city during this period?"
"The real reason for the end of the Islamic Golden Age was -WAR-. Infighting between various Muslim caliphates and taifa, the Crusades, and especially the Mongols ravaged the Islamic World. When the Ilkhanate Mongols besieged Baghdad and it finally fell, they massacred and burned everyone and everything - up to a million people were killed and all the libraries and schools destroyed. Baghdad was so completely destroyed that for several centuries afterwards, it was entirely abandoned as a ruin."
"At no point does Ghazali say mathematics is the "work of the devil". In fact, he says quite the opposite - in the Book of Knowledge in his magnum opus, the Revival of the Sciences, he talks about how mathematics (al-riyadiyyah) is not only praiseworthy, but a religious OBLIGATION on a communal level, just like medicine - that is to say, not every single Muslim must be an expert in mathematics, but the community must be producing adequate numbers of people who are experts in maths."
There are no values on one axis of the graph--just the words "Scientific Advances." So how did they measure those advances? Very unscientific graph.
ReplyDeleteThank you to Ailsa for shedding more light on the popular (and in part deliberately manufactured) myth that science and religion are, by nature, in conflict.
Thank you Dr Tyson, for laying things out so clearly.
ReplyDeleteAs someone once said, "Those who don't remember history are doomed to repeat 11th grade".
Here's a different factor to consider, though; back in the dark ages of christianity, or the 12th century of islam, communication between civilizations wasn't very good. Today, due to technological advances like cell phones and the internet, worldwide communication is instantaneous. So, when the nutty christian extremists try to pull america back into a new dark ages, science and technology would continue to flourish in europe, asia, wherever, and get us back to sanity. Science won.