Morality is not determined by the church you attend nor the faith you embrace. It is determined by the quality of your character and the positive impact you have on those you meet along your journey
Still, I can’t discount my Invisible Force incidents. There have been too many and they are too specific for it to just be coincidence. The Force seems to like prayer, but cares nothing for money, unless the money benefits life… a person in need, animals, or a garden, something like that.
I've yet to hear a reasonable explanation that if there is a God, who is all good and knowing would allow children to be born with serious and life threatening birth defects, or to allow wars with people killing other people. Especially when so many wars past and present have been over religion.
The "reasonable-ness" of an explanation lies in the mind of the listener/reader. Leibniz, coincident (along with Newton) developer of infinitesimal calculus inter alia, published interesting thoughts on the subject.
I'm not arguing for the acceptance of his or any other's views- I believe such issues should never be imposed- just suggesting possible avenues of research if you weren't simply making a rhetorical statement. I'll grant the issue is a thorny one and don't consider views which dismiss the notion of God over the problem of evil unreasonable at all.
People who expend a great amount of energy trying to sound educated and intelligent look ridiculous. Seriously, say what you mean. You sound like an adolescent who just discovered philosophy and believes he has the answer to everything.
If you are a kid, I will back off and let you play.
Things are looking up, my comments (thanks for the correction) are no longer attempts to "sound educated and intelligent" but are "parading knowledge."
Pedantry is a sin of mine, but it isn't my only motivation.
I like to learn. If you don´t mind, I would like to know what you learned from living in Micronesia. What made you go there, live there, leave Wall Street, etc...
As I explain on my blog and in my profile (no need to visit I haven't published anything there in almost a year) I was a Physics/Philosophy student who got seduced by Wall Street. I got a chance to use my math skills as a derivatives trader playing what seemed to me at the time a great game.
I recall that sentiment with shame.
Admittedly, working in finance took me all around the world which was quite a treat for a kid from rural upstate NY.
What did I learn?
3 ideas come to mind:
1) Money, unless treated with extreme caution, often insidiously insulates the minds of those who have it from the effects on others of its acquisition.
2) People, at core, are far more alike than many apparently assume.
3) Despite its problems (and there are many), this experiment in self-rule some call the United States is a wondrous thing and I'm fortunate to be both a part and product thereof.
p.s. I should probably note that I learned I wasn't nearly as smart as I imagined myself to be....and I've been trying to relieve that ignorance ever since.
Very reasonable. Science has a way of making me feel pretty good about being alive.
Physicist Paul A.M. Dirac, winner of the 1933 Nobel Prize, once said, "Pick a flower on earth and you move the farthest star." He was speaking of the far reaching effects of gravity fields. We, our cars, our flowers, our brains, and everything around us have gravity fields emanating outward from every atom in our bodies, extending to far reaches, crossing and intermingling with other gravity fields from other bodies not only here on earth but out to the farthest star.
While a google search does attribute the flower quote to Dirac, I find it hard to believe a (most likely mildly autistic) mind more wrapped in abstraction than even Wittgenstein would have come up with that one.
On this Sunday's Atheism sermon from Gryphen....the irony is almost palpable.
Gravity is not abstract. It guided ¨Curiosity¨ to Mars.
If you don´t believe me jump off a cliff.
Science and technology have dealt people like you the ultimate insult - it has transcended your ability to understand it. It hurts, you don´t like the way it makes you feel about yourself, so you convince yourself it´s wrong.
Some (I'd bet most) find theories of gravity quite abstract- forces acting at a distance, Cartesian space "bending" etc.- but perhaps you were referring to the phenomenon which the theories aim to describe/predict, in which case, I'd agree. Gravity is not abstract, it (in the second sense) merely is.
However, gravity didn't guide Curiosity to Mars any more than air pressure differentials (google Bernoulli) fly the planes we see in the sky. People did that work, and not just those directly involved.
I'm curious how you arrived at the conclusion I don't understand science and technology (I'll admit I am more studied in certain fields than others, but I'm betting you were making an encompassing statement) or am convinced "it" (again I'm assuming some intended encompassing sense) doesn't work.
Please explain if you are willing to spare a few moments.
It took you long enough to answer back. Of course, you agree now. Gravity did guide curiosity to the surface of Mars. ¨Now Newton takes over,¨ is what one astronaut quipped on his way to the surface of the moon.
Every high school physics student knows about Bernouli´s equations - no need to Google it, like you. That is one ¨tell¨ that you didn´t pay attention in class and don´t know what you´re talking about - you´re just Googling.
What I was referring to was your statement that gravity was an abstraction.
I shoved your ignorance right down your throat and sent Googling to save face.
Let´s see how long it takes for you to retort this time.
Note the astronaut didn't say, "Now gravity takes over" but instead referenced Newton- a person- which was the point.
However, now I believe I see the basis of your initial quip about gravity- you assumed my comment about the likelihood of a mind as intensely tuned to the abstract as Dirac's coming up with the quote suggested some disbelief about gravity.
No, I don't use "abstract" to mean bad or untrue.
I was, however, referring to the poetic nature of the statement (Dirac mocked Oppenheimer's attempts at poetry, and, one could argue, poetry in general) in the use of the "picking a flower" metaphor as impetus for a shift in the gravitational field, not that Dirac didn't have a firm grasp of field equations.
I would have retorted sooner but I was busy dislodging my ignorance from my throat.
i agree and had similar thoughts as a child going to a fundamentalist sunday school. my thoughts were more along the lines of "these are interesting fairy tales, but . . . " why WAS i getting up early every sunday and dressing up to hear these stories? anonymous at 5:13 AM, thank you for your statement - i do think that makes a huge difference. my best friend from high school and i are still close because she is like you. she is "concerned" about me and she politely expresses that, but she does not try to impose her beliefs on me!
Anonymous @ 8:48 am - So true. To further that, we think of mothers and parents as being loving, kind and protective.
How can you call something a loving god when small children are beaten, raped, starved to death, slowly, and that god allows the ravages of ongoing wars causing loss of limbs as well as lives to continue throughout our world?
If that is a loving god then what does a hateful one look like? Don't tell me all these tragedies are the work of the devil, that too is just a fairy tale.
Perhaps I have a guardian angel or someone looking out for me. Others would say I have had a tough life, tougher than a lot of youngsters. However, I have always been able to provide for myself, take on the difficult assignments and end them successfully.
I love nature, the beauty it offers daily and the other "percs" that fall to me. But I lament the fact that not all people have at least the gifts in their life that I almost take for granted.
If nothing more at least the essentials and safety to surround them.
If we pay our utility bills we have light, phone, gas, heat etc. People plow tons of money into the churches and have for years - what is their tangible return? Certainly not peace or provisions for all.
At this point Dave Lewis is thinking, ¨Oh, shit. I got me a college degree and is an accountant. I is a God among the righteous. But this ain´t C4P and these folks ain´t easily impressed.¨
I'm not an accountant, the sense of "accounting" to which my blogger profile refers is not the financial one.
I don't consider myself God nor am I a supporter of Sarah Palin. Rather it was my concern about the potential of that woman becoming VP which led me to this blog many years ago. I commend the author for his excellant work exposing Sarah for the ignorant, spiteful grifter she is.
I wasn't clear the first time I commented. My beliefs in science and religion don't conflict, and my church celebrates the wonders of discovery as well as Christ. We prefer to live our faith and not impose it on others.
I consider you fortunate to have found a church which doesn't view science as antagonistic to Christianity but rather complementary. There are, in my view, too many churches lost in "dogmatic slumber" taking the opposite view. Thus the, in my view, justified outrage of Gryphen and his many readers.
So the underlying premise of Christianity is that Jesus laid down his life so that "we" could be free.
Ok, thanks. We are now free. From what? Well, that's a long story with a ton of twists and turns.
But sticking to the original premise - the guy laid down his life so that I could be free. I can choose to spend that lifetime of freedom thanking him and praising him - but somehow I don't think that's what he had in mind.
Free to choose...free to explore, free to experience. Free from the burden of having something hanging over my head at the end of my days ----- free from dogma.
Free from eternal hell. Which by the way, was created by a loving God who sits all day being praised and watching my every thought, word, and deed. All tallied up at the end and...
So look - either the guy did his job by dying or he didn't. Makes me laugh. If you go with the premise he existed, and now he doesn't --- and you believe he saved your soul by doing what he did -- WTF are you frightened of? Why do you care what I think or not?
Don't you trust the guy?
Ah, logic. It's a bugger. For me it simply doesn't make sense to spend the very life I've been given worrying about the things that other people say or believe - now what they do has a direct impact.
And what laws they create in the name of religion, yup - that matters. Because that restricts the very freedom the savior died to provide to me. Right?
And give them money.
ReplyDeleteStill, I can’t discount my Invisible Force incidents. There have been too many and they are too specific for it to just be coincidence. The Force seems to like prayer, but cares nothing for money, unless the money benefits life… a person in need, animals, or a garden, something like that.
I've yet to hear a reasonable explanation that if there is a God, who is all good and knowing would allow children to be born with serious and life threatening birth defects, or to allow wars with people killing other people. Especially when so many wars past and present have been over religion.
DeleteThe "reasonable-ness" of an explanation lies in the mind of the listener/reader. Leibniz, coincident (along with Newton) developer of infinitesimal calculus inter alia, published interesting thoughts on the subject.
DeleteI'm not arguing for the acceptance of his or any other's views- I believe such issues should never be imposed- just suggesting possible avenues of research if you weren't simply making a rhetorical statement. I'll grant the issue is a thorny one and don't consider views which dismiss the notion of God over the problem of evil unreasonable at all.
Dave Lewis:
DeletePeople who expend a great amount of energy trying to sound educated and intelligent look ridiculous. Seriously, say what you mean. You sound like an adolescent who just discovered philosophy and believes he has the answer to everything.
If you are a kid, I will back off and let you play.
"People who expend a great amount of energy trying to sound educated and intelligent look ridiculous"
DeleteYou might be right, assuming I expended a great deal of energy to write that post. Then again, I might actually be educated.
I'll leave you (and other readers) to answer that for yourselves.
Dave Lewis:
DeleteThatÅ› not a post. It´s a comment. And you do waste energy and time parading knowledge.
That is all you are doing.
Now don´t evade the question again: ¨Are you a kid?¨
Things are looking up, my comments (thanks for the correction) are no longer attempts to "sound educated and intelligent" but are "parading knowledge."
DeletePedantry is a sin of mine, but it isn't my only motivation.
"Am I a kid?"
Only at heart.
Dave Levis:
DeleteSo am I. A kid at heart, that is.
The troll attack is off.
I like to learn. If you don´t mind, I would like to know what you learned from living in Micronesia. What made you go there, live there, leave Wall Street, etc...
Those, I know, are very personal questions.
I understand if you don´t want to answer them.
As I explain on my blog and in my profile (no need to visit I haven't published anything there in almost a year) I was a Physics/Philosophy student who got seduced by Wall Street. I got a chance to use my math skills as a derivatives trader playing what seemed to me at the time a great game.
DeleteI recall that sentiment with shame.
Admittedly, working in finance took me all around the world which was quite a treat for a kid from rural upstate NY.
What did I learn?
3 ideas come to mind:
1) Money, unless treated with extreme caution, often insidiously insulates the minds of those who have it from the effects on others of its acquisition.
2) People, at core, are far more alike than many apparently assume.
3) Despite its problems (and there are many), this experiment in self-rule some call the United States is a wondrous thing and I'm fortunate to be both a part and product thereof.
p.s. I should probably note that I learned I wasn't nearly as smart as I imagined myself to be....and I've been trying to relieve that ignorance ever since.
Very reasonable. Science has a way of making me feel pretty good about being alive.
ReplyDeletePhysicist Paul A.M. Dirac, winner of the 1933 Nobel Prize, once said, "Pick a flower on earth and you move the farthest star." He was speaking of the far reaching effects of gravity fields. We, our cars, our flowers, our brains, and everything around us have gravity fields emanating outward from every atom in our bodies, extending to far reaches, crossing and intermingling with other gravity fields from other bodies not only here on earth but out to the farthest star.
While a google search does attribute the flower quote to Dirac, I find it hard to believe a (most likely mildly autistic) mind more wrapped in abstraction than even Wittgenstein would have come up with that one.
DeleteOn this Sunday's Atheism sermon from Gryphen....the irony is almost palpable.
Gravity is not abstract. It guided ¨Curiosity¨ to Mars.
DeleteIf you don´t believe me jump off a cliff.
Science and technology have dealt people like you the ultimate insult - it has transcended your ability to understand it. It hurts, you don´t like the way it makes you feel about yourself, so you convince yourself it´s wrong.
Some (I'd bet most) find theories of gravity quite abstract- forces acting at a distance, Cartesian space "bending" etc.- but perhaps you were referring to the phenomenon which the theories aim to describe/predict, in which case, I'd agree. Gravity is not abstract, it (in the second sense) merely is.
DeleteHowever, gravity didn't guide Curiosity to Mars any more than air pressure differentials (google Bernoulli) fly the planes we see in the sky. People did that work, and not just those directly involved.
I'm curious how you arrived at the conclusion I don't understand science and technology (I'll admit I am more studied in certain fields than others, but I'm betting you were making an encompassing statement) or am convinced "it" (again I'm assuming some intended encompassing sense) doesn't work.
Please explain if you are willing to spare a few moments.
It took you long enough to answer back. Of course, you agree now. Gravity did guide curiosity to the surface of Mars. ¨Now Newton takes over,¨ is what one astronaut quipped on his way to the surface of the moon.
DeleteEvery high school physics student knows about Bernouli´s equations - no need to Google it, like you. That is one ¨tell¨ that you didn´t pay attention in class and don´t know what you´re talking about - you´re just Googling.
What I was referring to was your statement that gravity was an abstraction.
I shoved your ignorance right down your throat and sent Googling to save face.
Let´s see how long it takes for you to retort this time.
Note the astronaut didn't say, "Now gravity takes over" but instead referenced Newton- a person- which was the point.
DeleteHowever, now I believe I see the basis of your initial quip about gravity- you assumed my comment about the likelihood of a mind as intensely tuned to the abstract as Dirac's coming up with the quote suggested some disbelief about gravity.
No, I don't use "abstract" to mean bad or untrue.
I was, however, referring to the poetic nature of the statement (Dirac mocked Oppenheimer's attempts at poetry, and, one could argue, poetry in general) in the use of the "picking a flower" metaphor as impetus for a shift in the gravitational field, not that Dirac didn't have a firm grasp of field equations.
I would have retorted sooner but I was busy dislodging my ignorance from my throat.
No need to note anything. The astronaut released the controls and was referring to gravity.
DeleteYes, you did insinuate gravity was an abstraction. And you were trying to be condescending.
There is a little poetry in all of us, especially scientists. Dirac was stating a fact and used a little poetry - hardly mocking.
There was never a need for you to dislodge anything from your throat - I gave you a Heimlich that sent your ignorance flying across the room.
Wating....
Indeed, I can't argue with your views.
Deleteciao
They´re not views. They´re facts.
DeleteNevertheless, I stretch my arm across the blogosphere to shake your hand, Dave Levis.
Based on my church experiences, I disagree- but I don't feel I have the right to impose my beliefs on others. Maybe that's the difference...
ReplyDeleteCO almost Native
i agree and had similar thoughts as a child going to a fundamentalist sunday school. my thoughts were more along the lines of "these are interesting fairy tales, but . . . " why WAS i getting up early every sunday and dressing up to hear these stories? anonymous at 5:13 AM, thank you for your statement - i do think that makes a huge difference. my best friend from high school and i are still close because she is like you. she is "concerned" about me and she politely expresses that, but she does not try to impose her beliefs on me!
ReplyDeleteAnonymous @ 8:48 am - So true. To further that, we think of mothers and parents as being loving, kind and protective.
ReplyDeleteHow can you call something a loving god when small children are beaten, raped, starved to death, slowly, and that god allows the ravages of ongoing wars causing loss of limbs as well as lives to continue throughout our world?
If that is a loving god then what does a hateful one look like? Don't tell me all these tragedies are the work of the devil, that too is just a fairy tale.
Perhaps I have a guardian angel or someone looking out for me. Others would say I have had a tough life, tougher than a lot of youngsters. However, I have always been able to provide for myself, take on the difficult assignments and end them successfully.
I love nature, the beauty it offers daily and the other "percs" that fall to me. But I lament the fact that not all people have at least the gifts in their life that I almost take for granted.
If nothing more at least the essentials and safety to surround them.
If we pay our utility bills we have light, phone, gas, heat etc. People plow tons of money into the churches and have for years - what is their tangible return? Certainly not peace or provisions for all.
At this point Dave Lewis is thinking, ¨Oh, shit. I got me a college degree and is an accountant. I is a God among the righteous. But this ain´t C4P and these folks ain´t easily impressed.¨
ReplyDeleteI'm not an accountant, the sense of "accounting" to which my blogger profile refers is not the financial one.
DeleteI don't consider myself God nor am I a supporter of Sarah Palin. Rather it was my concern about the potential of that woman becoming VP which led me to this blog many years ago. I commend the author for his excellant work exposing Sarah for the ignorant, spiteful grifter she is.
I sincerely apologize to you.
DeleteNo apology needed (but I appreciate and accept the sentiment).
DeleteI don't intend my comments to offend but I can see how some might (justifiably) read them that way.
My apologies.
I wasn't clear the first time I commented. My beliefs in science and religion don't conflict, and my church celebrates the wonders of discovery as well as Christ. We prefer to live our faith and not impose it on others.
ReplyDeleteCO almost Native
I consider you fortunate to have found a church which doesn't view science as antagonistic to Christianity but rather complementary. There are, in my view, too many churches lost in "dogmatic slumber" taking the opposite view. Thus the, in my view, justified outrage of Gryphen and his many readers.
DeleteSo the underlying premise of Christianity is that Jesus laid down his life so that "we" could be free.
ReplyDeleteOk, thanks. We are now free. From what? Well, that's a long story with a ton of twists and turns.
But sticking to the original premise - the guy laid down his life so that I could be free. I can choose to spend that lifetime of freedom thanking him and praising him - but somehow I don't think that's what he had in mind.
Free to choose...free to explore, free to experience. Free from the burden of having something hanging over my head at the end of my days ----- free from dogma.
Free from eternal hell. Which by the way, was created by a loving God who sits all day being praised and watching my every thought, word, and deed. All tallied up at the end and...
So look - either the guy did his job by dying or he didn't. Makes me laugh. If you go with the premise he existed, and now he doesn't --- and you believe he saved your soul by doing what he did -- WTF are you frightened of? Why do you care what I think or not?
Don't you trust the guy?
Ah, logic. It's a bugger. For me it simply doesn't make sense to spend the very life I've been given worrying about the things that other people say or believe - now what they do has a direct impact.
And what laws they create in the name of religion, yup - that matters. Because that restricts the very freedom the savior died to provide to me. Right?