For those who have already seen Jesus Camp" you already have some idea s to what this film is about. And if that one kept you up at night, THIS one will give you night terrors.
The movie is an hour and twelve minutes long, but I do
encourage you to watch it, even if it takes you a few attempts to get
all the way through, because I feel it will do much to educate you on a certain politically connected segment of the Christian community.
Perhaps the most troubling aspect of this kind of superstition is that even those with higher education do not seem inoculated against its influence.
It is THIS mindset, and THESE people who are driving our foreign policy in the Middle East, and who bear much of the responsibility for the strained relations between America and the Muslim community.
My favorite quote is from Rabbi Felix Rogan: " The Jesus written about in the New Testament is a collage. Many, many of the miracles, and the details of his life, the kinds of things you would put on his curriculum vitae resume, these are repeat stories. And whether there was in fact an historical Jesus or not, our sources indicate that he was a witch, or sorcerer, and a guy who had his eyes on the ladies, and not the greatest guy in the world. And we don't think he's coming back."
Now THAT would probably not go over too well in the Evangelical community, but is is probably the differing point of view that they should all be exposed to at an early, early age. You know before their brains are completely washed of any cognitive reasoning skills.
"he was a witch, or sorcerer, and a guy who had his eyes on the ladies, and not the greatest guy in the world."
ReplyDeleteI'm not a Bible reader, hated catechism, but it is news to me that he had an eye for women. So how do the historical Jesus camp fight the "walk on water" myth? It's about as challenging as proving Reagan also too, didn't walk on water.
OMG its true!
DeleteGeese are flying overhead as I watch! {{snark off}} (Geese true)
4,000. abortions a DAY? Where the fuck do they come up with this shit!?
S'funny, folks use the term "witch" without establish what the word might mean (actually, not funny at all--nor unusual with words generally). I have long proposed the proper definition is: One who strives to move the World maximally while touching it, using its resources, minimally.
DeleteGoing by that definition--changing the world yet leaving a small footprint--I suggest the prime exemplar of that occupation is of course... guess who?
Those who believe that its only fair to teach creationism right alongside evolution...
ReplyDeleteshould also agree to teach Jesus NOT being the son of God right alongside his being so.
Not only that, but then they must teach about Mohammed, Buddha and every other religious figure of the past 2000 years. Sounds like math and science will be getting short shrift again.
DeleteSo "We're all Jews now" that's why sister sarah stupid is wearing the mega star of David so God "knows" she is one to be raputured?
DeleteThese people are delusional. Its really scary to see them teaching this fairy tale shit to their kids and
the kids feel their lives will be cut short.
Pah... teach only that "Son of God" refers to purity of communication and of the information imparted. Oh, and you're not to be rewarded for a mere avowal of allegiance (especially if you've pledged to an Imposter).
DeleteOct 17, Idaho. Power Up. Bonehead Sarah Palin's marketing her "living vibrantly" philosophy in a new motivational speaking tour (leaving politics to the side.)
ReplyDeleteShe repeats herself in a two minute video cause the woman can't come up with anything original since 1992.
The whore that just keeps taking...
DeletePeople-From-the-Fringe have been claiming for generations that the end of the world was imminent. I remember seeing people periodically standing on street corners, dressed in white, and claiming the end was near when I was just a little kid. I didn't buy it then; I don't believe it now. Using fear communication to gather followers has been around since Moses, maybe earlier.
ReplyDeleteGryphen, the quote from the Rabbi leaves much of the facts out; that many who encounter a very real experience with Jesus know He is real. Of course, the Rabbi can believe whatever he wants about Jesus, but he can't deny that the words of Jesus, are spiritual bread to believers. He can talk it away, but he can't steal it away.
ReplyDeleteMy favorite quote: "For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace"
Agree with the idea that this film presents that there's a fanatic fringe out there. They don't represent the Christ of the bible. They are misled, and being prompted by wolves in sheep's clothing.
I'm sure you mean well, but please understand you do not understand the word 'fact' at all, in any sense. The manner in which you used such indicated you think a fact is something very far apart from what it (unchangably, definitively always) is defined. Thank you.
DeleteThere are no facts involved.
DeleteYou were told by others that you could have "a real experience" with an imaginary person, and now you simply repeat.
Even the "words of Jesus" are second hand and 40 years after his death. No one has any idea what he may have been like.
There is no doubt that there are MANY Christians who have a born-again moment where something happens--some FEELING assures them that there is a God and he loves them and they then seem to know for sure after that.
DeleteWhat Christians often fail to recognize is that other people from other religions also have born-again FEELINGS that bring them closer to their God. Buddhists have, Jews have it (I have a Jewish neighbor and she sounds like a born again Christian in terms of her belief in her special personal intimacy and rapport with God), even Native Americans do...but of course NOT with Jesus, since to many othes, Jesus is not God.)
Presumably Muslims have their own form of experiencing Allah--that, like with Christians, some experience and some don't.
But the stories of those who do fuel the faith of the others. The thing about all of is that stands out is that humans have some immense need to feel connected to something greater. and that something greater inspires them to feel like they are doing good and gives them purpose to life. All fine and good.
The problem is, each relgion thinks they have the dibs on who the 'real' God is. And they have their holy books to prove it, and their anecdotal come-to-God filled with the HOly Spiriit moments to prove it.
Are some of them encountering God up close and then some of them only delusional? A sort of pschizophrenic brain chemistry reaction that makes them see God (which of course can also happen to people on peyote, LSD or simply mentally ill)?
How do we know who's experience is real, who is talking to the real God? MAybe they all are. Maybe none of them are.
But each group thinks they know and they are right. Of course they are only guessing and choosing to believe in something they have no way of knowing.
The thing that strikes me about this film is how CERTAIN all of these folks are about the future. The are predicting the future--although I believe in the Bible it says that you can't. But whatever, they are, and they know all of this end times stuff is TRUE, and it's happening NOW or SOON or in our lifetimes, yet other other line in this film is them speculating and saying 'I think this" or "Probably it will be like this" or " I'm pretty sure that.."
And they are all guessing and have no clue whatsoever. Yet they believe that they are right, despite openly guessing abut it all. And they claim to have proof of current events as signaling certain things. But again, it's all open to their interpretations. The blindness astounds me. And it's scary because these people rule their lives --and kill others--based on these unproven beliefs.
I also believe that avowed atheists are also just as faith-flawed as evangelicals. We have no proof there is no God, no divine intervention or plan, no greater entity. To believe so is just as ...stupid?...as believing with complete certainly that there is a God with certain traits and wishes. None of us knows a damn thing, that, unfortunately is the human experience. Perhaps we will know when we die. But we have no clue.
I am always so appalled by people's lack of understanding about Atheists.
DeleteAtheists DON'T say that they KNOW for a fact that there is no God. They say that there is NO evidence available to convince them, and they usually believe anybody, that God exists.
Essentially Atheists are just like Agnostics, except Atheists have balls! Atheists don't hide behind the paper thin protection of "Well I just don't know enough to have an opinion."
Of course they have an opinion, EVERYBODY has an opinion, just some are too terrified to say it out loud.
However an intelligent Atheist is ALWAYS open to new data, which of course can be examined, that might indicate the existence of an intelligent force behind creation.
I believe that there are numerous scientists fairly salivating at the very thought of such evidence. So if you find some, please let them know.
I think the problem with making atheists superior to agnostics is that the whole implication that, given "proof", evidence-based intelligent man will absolutely acknowledge God. This is a supremely egoistic view of man--and man as superior over all beings (which of course is also done in the Bible, ironically.) It's a view that says that the human animal is someone better, smarter, etc than other animals.
DeleteThat egoistic world view is what allows even 'pro life' Christians to commit mass genocide--enslaving, torturing and murdering factory-farmed animals for food, or using animals for their entertainment, for their labor, and worst of all for their medical testing (with the justification being that the knowledge we gain from torturing animals is for the greater good--that is, saving humans.)
All of this is flawed. I think the point of agnosticism is that we, in fact, are limited in knowing and in our ability to truly know, and so we don't know and perhaps can't know. About a bunch of stuff including God.
Sure we've made a few discoveries. But we have no clue how to keep peace in the world, we have no clue what other fellow animals think and feel, much less fish. We have no clue about universes how many many things in the body work, how cells and genes work. Heck, we don't even know how cats purr. There are theories, but noone understands it. We don't know what makes the body store fat in one place over another. There is a lot we don't know. Maybe we'll find some of it out, maybe we won't.
Ultimately, despite our advances, we are clueless, and, worse, despite our creativity and smarts, our intelligence is killing us--raping the Earth, killing off whole species, poisoning our foods and our planet---how smart are we really? So to be so holier than thou to think--sure, I"ll believe in a God if you prove it, Well the whole point is that it may not be provable to us--we are too darn stupid.
As a practicing research scientist myself with a PhD from an Ivy League university, I can tell you that 'science' is extremely flawed. Every study is based on hypothesis that is shown statistically, or not, to be likely to be true. But given that every experiment uses just a sample of the entire population of data points that could supply evidence, we are making educated guesses and operate until proven wrong....
continued...
DeleteI don't self identify as an Atheist and so have not spent any time reading their manifestos to see what defines one and what doesn't. I grew up religious, although not born again. And now, I don't know. I'm not practicing and def. have been turned off by the hypocrisy and human-error in most traditional religions.
I have to assume there is a God--whether that is a Buddhist definition of universal energy or some actual entity, and I'd like to assume that it/he/whatever is benign, but heck who knows? We simply can't know for sure...unless we are personally hit with that born-again feeling that makes people feel so certain about it...but who knows if that is a delusion of some sort? Although the people that have these, or out of body experiences, certainly don't think so. But maybe they are.
It's stupid to deny what we have learned through science, which many ultra religious people do. But it's also stupid to assume that science is God, because it's quite flawed and thus far has only told us a little bit about life, there is much much more to know and whether we are capable of knowing it all is questionable.
If you study science--as a researcher--you see that in any given field lots of 'knowns' at one point are disproven later. But at any given point in time they are what is known. If you look up research design and statistical analysis you will see how whatever a particular study proves is dependent upon many many variables and at every single step in the process there are potential confounders.
Saying that, I'm not one to say that Evolution is a flaky theory, but it still doesn't prove that there is no God. It only suggests that the Adam and Eve story might be a parable.
And by the way, I've heard plenty of atheists say there is absolutely no God. So you atheists better get your story straight. :)
Well, I got through 7 minutes! Substitute the word "prophecy" with the word "superstition" and it sounds a lot less "real". "Being taken up into the clouds?" Can't believe seemingly well-educated people actually believe that -- it's so incredibly ridiculous.
ReplyDeleteMay I suggest there's an irony at work here? The skewed perspective cited here is actually a vestige of the shortcomings in Western positivist science! We collectively don't know how to read or give proper value and credence to mythology anymore, not without some serious rewiring anyway (some folks suggest that need is why LSD-25 came to be).
DeleteMark Twain said: “It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.”
ReplyDelete4000 abortions a day? In the same sentance as the remark of war? Nothing said of the deaths, men women and children killed, starved to death, left without homes, schools,medical attention, clean water or places to get bath. war according to these people is very fine,guns are fine,no sort of comment of any of these very ungodly actions.
ReplyDeleteThat is far as I can read.
And why do they care if abortions happen if they don't believe that their children will live long enough to get their driver's license? Would not the zygote's soul go to heaven? I think I would rather be fast tracked to heaven then to live this miserable existence of waiting to die/be raptured my whole life. They are CRAZY.
DeleteThis way of thinking is so f**king screwed up... It's scary. And depressing. How do you fight against such ignorance and superstition?
ReplyDeleteFree public education. That is how this nation got the where it WAS and that is why "those that would turn us all into serfs and slaves" are doing everything they can to destroy our free public education system.
DeletePlease vote. and make sure everyone you know votes!
You know, you have to be pretty fucked-up to relish the destruction of the world to satisfy your hope of becoming some divine dog catcher for Christ.
ReplyDelete:)
DeleteIdiots.
Given context, this story actually doesn't surprise me in the least. The reason I say that is from experience watching it happen.
ReplyDeleteI will put out a blanket wager that ANYONE who wants to explore the depth of this multi-generational loonacy. From east coast to the boarder of Arizonie you can follow the life experiences of almost any white person from birth to adulthood, and see/watch the environmental, educational, social and religious 'training' that leads these folks to absolute dedication and focus on their impending rapture - expected EVERY DAY!!! They strive for it's relief every day... They talk about it among themselves, with friends and family, at school, at work, in social environments- everywhere.. It's just pathetic to watch...
The wager is for $50 that says you CAN'T find someone that's NOT afflicted.
I grew up with a mother that got sucked into this rapture/Pat Robertson type religious beliefs after my dad left her with six kids. I was in 7th & 8th grade when she made this transition. When she started telling me that the world would end before I graduated from high school, I blew her off as a Jesus Freak (as we called them then) and told her so. I never got sucked into her way of thinking and instead it made me run they other way of not being religious at all. Before my mother's transformation, I had grown up Catholic and went to Catholic school until I was in 6th grade. So, I was no stranger to the brainwashing of religion. Out of us six kids, none of us are religious or go to church. What I wonder about is how my siblings and me rejected these extreme beliefs but other children in this environment don't? It would make an interesting study.
ReplyDeleteYes, it would.
DeletePersonnaly, I was raised in the 1950s Presbyterian church. The message that I took away was that education was very important and that each individual determined thier future. The concept of "Original sin" i.e. that all humans are born of the devil was not accepted nor was the necessity of being "born again in Christ" was not acceptable. Frankly, I don't recall any discussion of the end times until we moved to a community where the only church was run by a "fly-by-night" Baptist Mission group. (Alaska ca. 1960.) My mother was and still is at 101 one of those people that must go to church for the sake of going to church. The 'churches' that she used to make us attend where exactly what we are talking about. Claiming to follow the teachings have religion yet preaching straight from the old testement. Their god was one of hellfire & brimestone. These were the same people that broke new born babies arms because the devil made them cry. These were the people (pastors) that preached abstenace while their teenagers "HAD" to get married at 16 or 17. These were/are the religious fanatics that are fanning the fires of intolerance today. In my mind the fundimentalist Christians that live thier lives waiting for the return of Christ are no different from the fundimentalist Muslim who is willing to die to get to paradise. It is all the result of ignorance.
According to the New Testament, Thessalonians--the "source" material for the Rapture--isn't even attributed to Jesus. It's from one of Paul's letters, and he never even met Jesus. In fact, most of what is considered Christian doctrine was created by Paul, so folks ought to be calling themselves Paulists instead of Christians.
ReplyDeleteI consider myself a "red letter" Christian, i.e. I focus on the words and acts attributed to Jesus in the King James version, which actually bear a remarkable resemblance to Buddhist koans in many instances. It is coincidence that Jesus' life and words pretty much epitomize that of a Bodhisattva?
As a teenager, I questioned everything. Like if God is all powerful, why does he need us puny humans to do his dirty work? Didn't need any help making the Earth, why would he need help getting rid of the sinners. Inconvenient ideas like those got me kicked out of more than one congregation. Personally, I'd love it if the fundies of all persuasions were snatched up by some sky beings (Anunnaki, I'm talking to you). Sure would make life on Earth a lot more peaceful.
Me confused -- if Jews are the chosen people an God loved them so much, how come the only way to God is through Jesus?
ReplyDeleteOne Hundred Twelve minutes and twenty four seconds that I'll never get back. It's good to watch for entertainment purposes, but nothing of substance.
ReplyDeleteI saw no love, compassion, empathy nor tolerance in the people in that film. Just pride that their butts are covered and relishing in the supposed misery/pain/suffering in those who don't buy what they're selling.
If I believed in a God, I can't imagine a God that's not benevolent. I can't imagine a God who would leave behind a Jew because he/she didn't convert. Jesus was a Jew, and by definition couldn't be a Christian because there was no Christ before him.
The whole premise of the left behind theory sounds eerily similar to playing "The Sims" or "Sim City".
Build, destroy, level and raze other people and their places of worship. Because you're going to be raptured and they're not.
"Using fear communication to gather followers..." is bullying.
ReplyDeleteI like Professor Bob Altemeyer's decades of studying 'The Authoritarians'
http://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~altemey/
Now I fully understand the name of your blog....
ReplyDelete