You know it was the concept of hell, and my determination that it was a ridiculous notion, that really sent me fleeing from Christianity in general. To this day that was perhaps the most hateful thing that anybody had ever said to me, that if I did not embrace THEIR specific religious beliefs I would be punished for all eternity.
Essentially for me, once you have said something that hateful and unnecessarily vicious you can no longer expect me to listen to ANYTHING else you may have to say.
And so I never have.
If you want to learn more about Bishop Spong just click here.
Amazing man! I'm surprised the Catholic church hasn't stomped him into silence. I especially liked the part about "God is not a Christian."
ReplyDeleteBishop Spong is an Episcopal Bishop not Catholic.
ReplyDeleteHi Gryph, two things.
ReplyDeleteOne. Rev. Spong is a retired Episcopal bishop, not catholic.
Also, typo of 'most' in the sentence that starts, 'To this day..."
Incidentally, reading his books also got me out of Christianity. I wonder how he'd feel if he knew...
He would probably be happy that you followed your head and heart instead of the power mad controllers.
DeleteYou got it Olivia!
DeleteGood morning Gryph! Spong is an Episcopalian, not a Catholic!!
ReplyDeleteFYI, Gryph, Bishop Sponge is Episcopalian, not Catholic.
ReplyDeleteI love this guy!!! "God is NOT a Christian!" I hope this gets out to those evangelical self-righteous maniacs who want to damn everyone
ReplyDeletewho refuses to follow them!And esepcally apropos after the scare tactics of Hannity last night too! Who SHOULD Barack Obaama, a black American, talk about if not his own race? And he talks of a benovolent God, a God of all religions. What Hannity was inferring was not that Obama was soley vlack, but that he wasn't "Christian' enough. Carlson went right along with him, and so they easily cast aspersions on a man who has NEVER favored one race or one religion as President. Carlson should be ashamed of himself "not a President?" No, he is very much a President. You people are racist fools. And again, I LOVE Sprong!
Not to nit-pick, but Spong is an Episcopalian.
ReplyDeleteThere is an enormous independent, intellectual gulf between the Catholic and Episcopal churches.
Great interview,
Bishop Spong is an Episcopalian, not a Catholic. I was amazed when I heard what he had to say, assuming he was a Catholic! Had me going there for a while, Gryphen.
ReplyDeleteI know how you feel. If I criticized the peas, my mother would tell me I was going to hell. It was her fallback response to even the slightest conflict. I also worked with a fiftyish woman who did the same thing; she didn’t have very many friends.
ReplyDeleteThanks for the information on Bishop Spong. I’ll read it later.
Just beautiful.
ReplyDeleteI quit believing in the hell that was taught to me as a child when I was told that even an unbaptized innocent child or adult who was a very good person but had no faith would go to hell. It seemed that the all powerful and omnipotent God they kept talking about had an awful lot of petty, illogical, human characteristics. By junior high school, it was obvious to me that it was all an invention to control gullible, fearful populations of people.
That's was the tipping point for me: the careless tossing away of the unbaptized as nothing more than annoying litter. It almost negates the personhood of a fetus argument. If unbaptized babies go to limbo, then they can't possibly be people yet, can they?
DeleteFinally!!! A pasty old white guy that speaks truth to the purpose of religion. His teachings are going to draw new followers that are younger, progressive and "grown up" in their thinking and acceptance of personal responsibility and accountability.
ReplyDeleteThanks for posting this Uncle Gryphen! I usually don't respond to your religion-based discussions, however, this video and this man's humble honesty made an impression on me.
Oops sorry I identified the Bishop as Catholic.
ReplyDeleteI read through a cursory description of him but jumped to a conclusion that was false.
Years ago I did hear a Catholic priest talking about Hell in somewhat similar terms but I do not remember where I saw that.
Still it is refreshing to see a man of the cloth, from any denomination, telling the truth.
BTW, he is Episcopal, not Catholic. I have always thought that Episcopalians are a bit more evolved than Catholics.
ReplyDeleteMy sister who was very "Churchy" gave me his book to read several years ago. I loved it. She is no longer "churchy".
ReplyDeleteBishop Spong's books are wonderful as well. I have treasured his writing for years. I particularly like "Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism."
ReplyDeleteGreat clip, however I wish he'd give up on this notion of a life after death because I believe that is yet another way to control people.
ReplyDelete'If you're really, really good your whole life, you'll get something in the end.' (Eternal life!) Hmmm, where have I heard something very similar to that before?
'If you're really, really good this year, Santa Claus will give you something at the end.' (A Chatty Cathy and new bicycle!)
'Nuff said.
Yes I agree with this completely.
DeleteIn fact I have a partially written post on that very subject bouncing around in my noggin.
I hope to have time to flesh it out and post it sometime soon.
It would be even more amusing if, after an entire life of being really, really good, all you get is a new bicycle...
DeleteWell, I've come to the conclusion that reincarnation makes the most sense as a system because it allows life after death, and allows each of us to continue to improve ourselves as many times as it takes, and we can experience many different times in history, many different parts of the world, other worlds, and many chances to learn as much as possible about how to love. It doesn't make sense to me that we'd be given one shot and one shot only to make it to "heaven". I certainly wouldn't have made such a chancy system, so why would "God" have?
DeleteSo, life after death? Absolutely, but we don't just get this one shot at learning. This life is just one of many classes we attend, and with each new chance, hopefully we get better and better at being God to each other.
I'm catholic, and I approve this message!
OK...but tell me this: Why is it anyone you ever encounter that says they were reincarnated always claims they were Egyptian queens, or Greek philosophers..or Aztec priests..or that chick that posed for Leonardo de Vinci?
DeleteHow come nobody was ever a potscrubber in Caesar's kitchen, or the guy that had to scrub the blood off of the guillotine in France? How come nobody fesses up to being the one that had to empty Henry VIII's 'water closet?' Huh?
I hear ya..I'm sure there's a man out there that claims to be the guy who modeled for Michelangelo's David!..oh wait a minute. I'd actually like to meet that guy. Never mind.
DeleteWhy did SO MANY of you have to say the man is not a
ReplyDeleteCathlic. The first poster who said it, was enough, the point was taken then.
Geez.
Many of the posts are written at the same time.
DeleteI wrote my correction when there were "0" comments posted, so there is no way to know.
Gryphen seems fine with it, as he posted all of them as they came in.
I'm sure that all these posts were made before Gryphen published any comments.
DeleteIf you read any of Spong's books, read "Living in Sin" - it scripturally and scientifically supports homosexuality, living together vs. marriage, etc. I've passed this book on to young people who were torn with guilt regarding their lifestyle, and older couples who couldn't marry their new partners due to giving up financial benefits (widow or widower benefits).
ReplyDeleteAll these religions refuse to go listen to the bible. Eccl 9:10 for it tells us in death there is "no work,no knowledge, no wisdom", it's just nothing. So instead they tell us we will be burned for forever,
ReplyDeleteIn the next verse it tells us that" time and unforseen occurances befall all. So much for everything being God's will.
"Priest says Hell is an invention of church..."
ReplyDeleteOh, he is TOTALLY going to Hell for saying that!
(When I first read the headline, I thought you were referring to Judas Priest...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89JmpyrD9S8)
Fun Rock N' Roll Trivia: The letters in the title of Judas Priest 1961 single "Parental Guidance" can be re-arranged, pointlessly, to form the phrase "prenatal gui dance".
And to President Obama I say, "Good luck tonight, Sir. Knock 'em dead."
I've studied most religions and gone to many churches. I didn't take anything at face value, but researched, compared, and questioned. Briefly, this is what I have come up with on this subject:
ReplyDeleteThe word "hell" is translated from the original "sheol". Sheol means "earth". This supports the scripture, "return to the dust". Our physical bodies are made of components from the ground, therefore, we nourish ourselves with the earth elements in our food, that grows from the earth (fruit, vegetables, herbs, medicinal plants). At death, our spirit which is eternal, returns to "God" and may re-journey into other incarnations of physical form, if we (the spirit)choose to do so; or we can continue to "live" in the spiritual plane which is another dimension or frequency. This invisible "frequency" is where we get paranormal sightings, whether ghosts or "unexplained" phenomenon. Where psychics can see/talk to our loved ones who pass on. The spiritual realm is such a high frequency that things manifest quickly, like the speed of light. As humans on the earth plane, we get anxiety because life is so sluggish. Intuitively, we "remember" how it is in the spirit, where things happen much faster - instant gratification/speed of light - and where evil doesn't exist. Biblically in Revelations, "Satan" (a bad spirit) and his following were banished from the "heavens" and where to? - the earth. (I could go on, but staying on this subject. Heaven/Hell.) Sheol, means earth or dirt. Fiery hell concept comes from Sheol. Earth=Hell? Prayer said by many: "Let your kingdom come, on earth as it is in heaven."
The KJV translators also used "hell" to translate the Greek word "Ge'enna" (Hebrew, Ge Hinnom, literally "Valley of Hinnom"). Only problem is that this was an actual place outside of Jerusalem. It is mentioned several times in the OT as a place where human sacrifices took place. In Jewish folklore it was the very picture of a dark accursed place. Not a place of fiery punishment for "sinners."
DeleteDamn, I was intrigued enough to look at his website...but you have to pay to join. i'll just be happy to know that he is out there trying, but I am not paying for what I know via common sense.
ReplyDeleteI am pretty sure that the Pope and the bishops are in line with this and don't believe there is a hell either. If they did, they might behave differently. Hell is for the ignorant, to keep them in line and to maximize the amount of money extracted from them.
ReplyDeleteYou're right about that. Catholic teaching is that hell is pretty much just exclusion from the presence of God, by choice.
DeleteJesse, my 76 yr old mother thinks the world of Bishop Spong. She is Roman Catholic, and participates in a book club with other elderly catholic ladies, and they read this guy's books and discuss....see, there is hope; many "religious" people are actually spiritual people who are striving to understand what God really is, and KNOW that the religions of the world are not "the" answer, but sometimes sprout thinkers that do indeed help others to "God"!
ReplyDeleteAs Spong says in this piece, people don't need to be born again, they need to GROW UP!
PS My mom thinks Romney is a rich arrogant jerk!
This guy is really awesome! Wish more theologians shared this vision.
ReplyDeleteI really like his take on being "born again" and the need to keep people as mindless obediant children. All very true.
If I had had the exposure to a true Man of God as Bishop Spong, I'd still be in the Church.
ReplyDeleteThat said, I have come to exact same conclusions that Bishop Spong describes in this interview.
And, in my travels and conversations through this world I have come to the conclusion that most people don't WANT to grow up and be responsible ADULTS. It is so much easier to have someone else tell you what to do. Then, when it goes wrong, you have someone else to blame than yourself.
Mind = blown. This guy is amazing. I'm still Agnostic, but I have nothing but respect for believers who carry themselves in this light.
ReplyDeleteI've always said that it makes no sense to me that a being who was multifaceted enough to create everything we know (and everything we don't, yet) is so narrow-minded as to have only a single narrow path to him/her/whatever. Only a tiny human mind would conceive of such a concept.
(I still believe in the *possibility* that some greater thing than us may have set all this in motion, and that science is the vocabulary we use to describe it.)
If there *is* a hell, it's fires await the judgemental hypocrites who endeavor to punish and control the lives of their fellow men simply to make themselves feel validated in their prejudices.
I grew up as a Unitarian and was taught hell was just separation from god. My philosophy prof was a Benedictine monk, and he taught pretty much the same thing.
ReplyDeleteUnitarians believe in salvation for all. They don't believe in any hell.
DeleteI was basically agnostic until my 22-year-old born-again cousin told my wonderful 80-year-old grandmother that she was going to hell because she wasn't as sure as she used to be about Christian teachings. Mind you, my grandma was in a wheelchair and could not take care of herself; my cousin was staying with her for the weekend (as we all took turns doing when the caregiver needed a weekend off). Grandma kicked her out of the house, called my mom, and we stayed with her while my cousin went home. That day, I finally admitted that I was atheist. Grandma was the first person I told and she said, "Honey, I'm with you."
ReplyDeleteI agree with his take on heaven and hell as means of control. I never understood the Cathyolic belief that a child is born with "original sin" that needs to be "Washed away" through Baptism. The child is basically starting on the wrong foot and being judged by the sins of it's ancestors. What "sin" could a newborn possibly consciously commit? The whole "Limbo" idea is beyond me.
ReplyDeleteI don't adhere to any organized religion, but would find it interesting to talk with this man and ask him why he's part of organized religion in the first place.
ANITA:
ReplyDeleteI think limbo is a time after death when we get to process and figure out that we've been duped by religion and there is no heaven/hell etc. Some souls are lost forever looking for the pearly gates and other critical thinkers may get to advance tot he next level of existance. That's my theory.
Religious leader makes a claim about the supernatural, G calls it TRUTH.
ReplyDelete