"I don't count them as scientists."
Exactly! End of discussion, take your little book of fairy tales, and go home.
That is how all of these ridiculous people should be treated.
And if they try to force their completely fanciful and unsubstantiated beliefs into the classroom, they should be tarred and feathered and delivered to the door of their church. Where THAT fact free point of view is welcome.
Hahahahahahahaha!
ReplyDeleteThe bible is a book. It is not a science book.
ReplyDeleteIt cannot be proven.
Let them prove the 6 day story is science and I might be willing to listen to them.
Gryphen, it would be nice- no, it would be a cause celebré if once, just ONE TIME, you would point out there ARE people of faith who respect and understand scientific concepts and the world around us. Many professed believers in Jesus understand that each of the seven days mentioned in genesis could have been light years in length. The bible itself points out that God could make one day a moment in time or "a thousand endless nights".
ReplyDeleteI know it's the chuckle whacks who think argumentative children should be put to death and kids shouldn't be taught fundamentals of science in school which regularly make the news.
HOWEVER, it would be nice if just one time you pointed out intelligent, educated believers DO exist.
And my MAJOR MAJOR GRIPE:
I do not believe you would ever, ever call another faith's holy book "fairy tales". Unless you are willing to be dismissive of the Torah and Quran, you need to admit your hypocrisy and bias on this one point. You say you're against organized RELIGION- but what you mean is- you're against CHRISTIANITY.
The time has long passed for you to accept and acknowledge the people of faith who read and support your blog. Your attitude on this matter has gone from grudgingly allowing for dissenting viewpoints to taunting us like you're the schoolyard bully.
Please, once and for all, acknowledge the difference between people peddling RELIGION. . . and those who are simply embracing FAITH in something bigger than ourselves. Jesus was a prostitute loving, greed despising tradesman who would be campaigning for Obama if he were alive on earth today. The "religious" people wouldn't have a thing to do with him. They simply co-opt his name to further their own agenda.
But not ALL OF US ARE LIKE THAT.
Nyah, you are right and you are wrong. In this particular segment the heading reads Shortest Scientist vs. CREATIONIST Debate Ever! So this particular slamming is correct.
DeleteFurther, I believe I recall several instances when Gryph was doing the same type of slamming at the followers of Islam (ESPECIALLY their habit of rioting when someone says they aren't as peaceful as they claim!) and the Jews with the Torah and the Old Testament and all the crap contained therein.
Further, I recall a fair number of admissions that there is a major difference between organized religion and those with just faith.
But like the squeaky wheel, it is the loudmouthed fanatical RELIGIONISTS - against whom you, also rant - who make the most noise and therefore deserve the most slamming. By now it shouldn't be necessary for Gryph to precede every slam with "while I know...."
You're kidding right?
DeleteOf course ALL of the various religious books are full of fairy tales. THAT is how you indoctrinate children. (By the way you do realize that the Torah is essentially the Old Testament, so that when I criticize the Bible I AM essentially criticizing the Torah, right?)
The reason I focus on Christianity so much is because of the incredibly negative impact it is currently having on this country's educational and political systems right now.
If there are indeed these enlightened Christians in the world that believe in science and do not take the Bible literally, then where the hell are they? Because they are currently allowing themselves to be represented by the most ignorant people on the planet.
Well, some of them are in the Roman Catholic Church - so-called cafeteria Catholics, who till send their money to a pedophile hiding group of old perverts, who persecute women, particularly their own women religious.
DeleteSo even those folks don't think clearly when someone tells them a fairytale of immortality and they buy it, then use it as an excuse to tromp on others rights to save themselves for it.
so, sorry, Nyah, irrational thinking is irrational thinking and you can't compartmentalize it. Just because that fear of eternal punishment can be used for good today, it can be used as justification for bad tomorrow. It is rationality that saves us- as Socrates pointed out.
Nyah, get off the computer and go run for office and DO something to prove you are not part of the problem. Sitting in your room, typing out petulant, whiny posts about how unfair Gryphen is to poor little nice Christians is not going to do anything to make the world better nor make anyone who despises the nasty Christians not lump you in with them.
DeleteYOU are the problem not the solution if you don't do something to change it.
Anonymous 6:40 AM
DeleteEven if you can't disagree with someone's opinion and thoughtful points without being an asshole, at least make a passing effort. As evident in your screed, you're not even trying to be civil.
Anonymous (surprise) 6:40,
DeleteI'M part of the problem?
No, child- I am an active, living part of the solution. I was not "sitting in my room" typing- I was in my office at the large secular university where I encourage young people to open their minds to all points of view every day.
I'm not "whining" at Gryphen. If you have been reading here for any length of time or been on other Palin related blogs, you will see I am one of Gryphen's biggest champions and defenders.
I understand how Gryphen feels about quote unquote Christians. It's the same way I feel about republicans. But just as not EVERY single republican (maybe most- but not ALL) is as empty headedly vain and vacuous as Sarah Palin, not every believer is like these dunderhead creationists who seem to thrive on putting idiocy out into the world.
I am not asking Gryphen to stop talking about that which bothers him nor do I think he should. I am only pointing out that a few years ago Gryphen at least seemed to respect the differing viewpoints on faith and now it seems he leads more toward belittling and demeaning; painting the entire population with a brush dipped in a color which simply does not match us all.
I am only asking Gryphen to differentiate between the "religious" people who seem to have never even heard or considered a word Jesus said- and people of faith, people who ascribe to Jesus' ideas about the world being a better place if we would simply just love one another.
And GRYPHEN- you might say you are "in essence" making fun of the Torah as well, but you aren't. When you say bible, people hear "bible". I would virtually guarantee that not a single reader had the thought "Hmm, I bet Gryphen is also talking about Jews and Muslims when he mentions Christians".
I'm not asking Gryphen to change his school of thought or opinions or worldview. I'm only asking that he not do something he has asked of US- he asked we please not judge all Alaskans by the actions of Sarah Palin and her ill mannered, uneducated crew. I'm asking the same thing- please do not judge all people of faith by the actions and words of the simply "religious".
SMACK!
ReplyDeleteWay to go. The sudden silence from the creationist says it all. Kind of like when I asked my boss - who totally believes that the paleontological evidence is faked due to the rocks crushing the evidence at burial - "what rocks?" He kind of stuttered and stammered and said "The rocks they were found in." When I said it was mud at the time of the burial, as evidenced by the sedimentary rock it was found in, he just kind of stomped off knowing that he was stymied and had found an opponent that was too educated to be suckered.
Based purely on empirical data, your boss' opinion is more valid than that of a person who only remains employed because of said boss' goodwill.
DeleteMy bosses "opinion" concerning the evidence being faked is totally STUPID and cannot be defended - under ANY legitimate circumstances! The ENTIRE CREATIONIST ARGUMENT is too stupid for any person of even slight education and intelligence to accept. It is blind and sick.
DeleteAnd I don't care whether that opinion comes from my idiot boss or someone who is keeping their job because of whatever reasons there may be aside from competence.
I WILL, however, (and HAVE to his face) admit that his forbearance is quite good, especially since I am living in one of those so-called "right to work states" where a person can be fired for no reason and without explanation at any time.
And before some of you complain about that, that's the law in this state and that is the law in almost every other "right to work" state. The law was put into place to prevent unions (not that I am defending unions) regardless of the arguments to the contrary.
So Leland is supposed to quit his job because his boss is a moron?
Delete"Empirical data?" What would that be, in this case? Regarding the formation of sedimentary rocks? Or what?
DeleteNope. Never did and never would. When discussing non-business related subjects where opinion is like assholes (everyone has one!) I refuse to pull punches (I'll be polite, but that's it.) nor will I quit.
DeleteLeland,
DeleteGet to work. If you keep wasting time at this office confronting others in order to spout off about YOUR OPINION of how life has evolved on Earth, I'm not getting much value for what I pay you. And stay off the goddam internet.
I know that Gryphen appreciates a handjob every now and then, and I'm all for giving the guy a reach-around or an attaboy when he strings together a few words into a memorable phrase, but while I'm paying for your time, I expect you to work, sir, not spend half the day ranting on the internet.
So get back to your job. Now. Chop chop.
Your Boss
Sorry, Anon 12:25, but no can do. I retired a couple of years ago.
DeleteFunny post, though! CLOSE to insulting, but not quite!
Love is as unmeasurable as God, and I consider all claims of experiencing Love to be claptrap and hooey. Har har! Winning! Take your love for others and bury it with your superhero fantasies.
ReplyDeleteI pity you. It isn't a feeling I have generally, but in your case I do. And it isn't about your feeling that love is as measurable as God. It is the obvious disdain you have for the emotion and the joy it can bring one.
DeleteDo you also have the same disdain for hate, its opposite?
Leland, you are really on a roll here! Well done. :)
DeleteHere's my take on the Bible, and how we can explain Genesis.
ReplyDeleteThe folks who wrote the book needed some way to explain everything around them. (remember, the book was started only 2000 years ago give or take). Not to dismiss anyone's faith, but think of Genesis and how it compresses millions of years of time into 7 days in the same manner as a movie that tries to wrap up a dozen loose ends in the last 5 minutes.
I know that may sound awfully insensitive, but the Bible is just an interpretation of history, not a DVR recording of what actually happened.
More like THREE thousand or more.
DeleteToo bad someone didn't delete the show before now.
Delete5:33AM says "...the Bible is just an interpretation of history..."
DeleteExactly right! And there are many, many "bibles" written by many, many different cultures. The King James bible (and variants) is merely one of many. Nothing about it makes it any better than, say, the Dao-ist texts of the 6th century BC.
Know what is wild the bible says that Methasultha lived to be 969 yrs old andhis grandson Noah was 500 yrs old when he became father to Shem Ham and jepheth. 600 yrs old when the flood came, dying at the age of 950 yrs old. Now do we take this literally? When my son was little, he loved dinosaures ,had a book and could name them. Not any more, there are all kinds now that have been dug up , all sizes from different times. Even if the 7days were 1000 or 7000 each no way could all those different animals come about in those time frames. The animals Noah put in the ark look like the ones today so -----
DeleteScience is a method of obtaining and organizing measurable evidence. Creationists have a curious earth centered focus. Most that I encounter are disinterested in scientific data about the cosmos, partly because they fear the mathematics. It is entertaining to watch them stumble when asked about the redshift of the galaxies.
ReplyDeleteAsk a creationist to date the origin of Alpha Centauri. Ask what their evidence is. Ask how it is that the creationists "know" how old the earth is, but don't have a date for Alpha Centauri. Unless you are laughing hysterically at that point, ask if Sirius is older or younger than Alpha Centauri. Your typical creationist is unprepared to discuss much beyond dates for the earth.
The narrowness of interest that creationists have is tells me that they are not scientists.
--------
(from wiki) Describing the cosmological expansion origin of redshift, cosmologist Edward Robert Harrison said, "Light leaves a galaxy, which is stationary in its local region of space, and is eventually received by observers who are stationary in their own local region of space. Between the galaxy and the observer, light travels through vast regions of expanding space. As a result, all wavelengths of the light are stretched by the expansion of space. It is as simple as that..."
You know most of them would confuse the satellite radio Sirius with the star.
DeleteCreationists have a very simplistic view of the world. Somewhat like the parent who answeres the question "why" with "because I said so."
DeleteAs a parent, I am well aware that there are times when that is the appropriate answer, but as a parent I also know that this is a way to end a learning moment.
There is an Alpha Centauri "A" and an Alpha Centauri "B", of course. I left that out above just to simplify.
DeleteWe understand all ancient texts through all the interpreters from all the centuries (unless you happen to read the ancient languages). It is a given that interpreters have a bias promoting specific political agendas. The distorting effect of those agendas makes current use of ancient texts dubious at best for the basis of scientific thought.
ReplyDeleteFurthermore, the interpreted text(s) continue to need "explanation" as evidenced by the highly profitable industry of organized religion. It's the perfect con game. Take a fuzzy piece of text, gloss it up to fit your own ideas and sell the story to the passive idiots who toss coins into the collection plate.
The "bible", the Torah, the Koran, the Buddhist texts, the Hindu texts, the Confucian texts, the Egyptian glyphs, the greek/roman/norse/whoever myths, the Book of Mormon, the latest crackpot religion, they ALL have a creation element. And NONE is any better than the other. Any of them can be used to concoct a "creationist" view of the universe.
Yep the biggest con, nobody has to prove anything, just make ppl believe and you can get them to send all kinds of money and you become rich non taxable. If they believe enough they will even kill as we see going on in all religion, yesterday, today and in the future.
DeleteI think Nyah's words are thoughtfully expressed. Yes, a frequent reader knows that Gryphen speaks about all religions in the same manner, accentuating the situations where religion causes people to make callous and cruel choices. But as a Christian, hearing someone dismiss and mock Christian faith can be difficult. Four years ago I was still a Christian, having grown up in an insular fundamentalist Calvinist environment. So, I would think someone like Bill Maher was funny until he ridiculed Christianity. Then it made me cringe, all the blasphemy and all. Four years later, I'm a "faith-free" person. And now it just seems silly for people to make their most important precepts in life ideas that came from a small Hebrew culture that existed thousands of years ago. Now I want to be part of that wave of people who focus on reason and make good choices for the world as it is.
ReplyDeleteAs an atheist, I consider the Genesis account merely primitive people trying to explain how the world came to be. Bronze age knowledge was extremely limited Ave now that actual science is answering the questions, the Bible and its ignorant history is too be ignored. A book that insists a man came from dust, a woman from a rib and gives instruction on how to treat your slaves isn't a book an intelligent, rational person should use as a guide to anything.
ReplyDelete"It isn't science." That is the statement I use frequently (I teach environmental education) when confronted with the same.
ReplyDeleteI then give the definition of science:
1. a branch of knowledge or study dealing with a body of facts or truths systematically arranged and showing the operation of general laws: the mathematical sciences.
2.systematic knowledge of the physical or material world gained through observation and experimentation.
3.any of the branches of natural or physical science.
4.systematized knowledge in general.
5.knowledge, as of facts or principles; knowledge gained by systematic study.
In simpler words - the ability to prove how the natural world works through repeated observation and experimentation.
So, is creationism science? When asked why I don't teach creationism in the science classroom, I simply ask, "Can any tenants of creationism be taught through repeated experimentation? No? Then it is NOT science; it is philosophy."
I get sputtering. I get blank looks. I get frustration. What I don't get, ever, is a positive answer to that question.
And because of the continued attack of non-science religious belief on science in our educational systems, I decided to run for my local school board this year. I think I've got a good chance of being elected. And won't I have fun contradicting the will of certain others who are on that board!
Good Luck!! I hope you get elected!! It's time we pushed back on these religious zealots. They have infiltrated our public forums with their over the top ideologies and are trying to take over.
DeleteHere's a compromise...propose an addition to the curriculum that explores all religious philosophies, you know like reincarnation and creationism.
hedgewytch, I can only hope that you live in Texas where my grandsons are in school. Luckily, they live in the city where it does not seem as restrictive.
DeleteYes, if the school standards include teaching of religious philosophy, then I will encourage that all sides be considered and reviewed.
DeleteBecause I live in a native community that is very Russian Orthodox, it gets really interesting when the parents want traditional knowledge taught, which often incorporated native spiritualistic beliefs, which then directly contradict the teachings of the RO church.
We need more science-minded folks in politics(and education, also, too) these days, hedgewytch, so best of luck in your school board race.
DeleteI am of the tribe of Abraham, a neo-Reform/Reconstructionist liberal observant Jewess librarian married to an atheist First Nation biochemist. Talk about a mixed marriage. We've lived among many peoples. I love all kinds of myths, legends, folktales, stories, and science fiction.
Remember Desiderata?
"Go placidly amidst the noise and haste, and remember what peace there may be in silence. As far as possible without surrender be on good terms with all persons. Speak your truth quietly and clearly; and listen to others, even the dull and the ignorant; they too have their story."
All that being said, Roy Zimmerman's Creation Science 101 sure tickles my funnybones:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIwiPsgRrOs
L'Shalom, all y'all,
thatcrowwoman
Love the quote!!
DeleteBUT being a jaded cynic couldn't help but think
"nice guys finish last."