Professor Michael King, from University College London, and his fellow researchers wrote in the British Journal of Psychiatry: "Our main finding is that people who had a spiritual understanding of life had worse mental health than those with an understanding that was neither religious nor spiritual."
The study was based on a survey of 7,403 randomly selected men and women in England who were questioned about their spiritual and religious beliefs, and mental state.
Of the participants, 35 per cent described themselves as "religious", meaning they attended a church, mosque, synagogue or temple. Five in six of this group were Christian.
Almost half (46 per cent) described themselves as neither religious nor spiritual, while the 19 per cent remainder said they had spiritual beliefs but did not adhere to a particular religion.
Members of this final group were 77 per cent more likely than the others to be dependent on drugs, 72 per cent more likely to suffer from a phobia, and 50 per cent more likely to have a generalised anxiety disorder.
They were also 40 per cent more likely to be receiving treatment with psychotropic drugs, and at a 37 per cent higher risk of neurotic disorder.
The researchers concluded: "We conclude that there is increasing evidence that people who profess spiritual beliefs in the absence of a religious framework are more vulnerable to mental disorder.
Well of course I have numerous opinions on this data, including why I think it might be so, but I think I will simply leave this here for all of you to discuss and then later I will revisit it and perhaps add my two cents worth.
I think one thing to keep in mind is how one defines "spirituality" and the reason WHY somebody usually joins a religious organization. I think that will help narrow the focus of the debate.
Makes sense. If you believe in a mythical being with no evidence and attempt to follow a life that's not truly your own by living through a book, you have to be crazy.
ReplyDeleteNope, don't agree. I will classify myself as spiritual, not religious. I am not sure about God, but I do believe there is life after death. I do not or never have done drugs nor do I have a mental health problem. Do they classify anyone that goes into deep meditation as kooky or a mental health case? Seems to me there is a lot lacking in this study.
ReplyDeleteSo you are one of the group that doesn't have problems. Good for you.
DeleteThat still doesn't negate the statistics being stated, i.e., 77% more likely than others to be dependent on drugs, as one example. And please note, it did NOT specify ILLEGAL drugs!
You can't disagree with statistics. Statistics are not an opinion.
DeleteAlso, your personal anecdotal evidence based on one person's experiences (yours) does not in any way negate an impartial statistical analysis.
Of course you can disagree with statistics. They are as/more manipulable as anything else. One actually has to read the study to see the flaws and biases. They all have them.
DeleteDon't know about you - but the nuttiest people I know are very Xtian.
ReplyDeleteMordacP - the ones who "believe in a mythical being" and "live through a book" are the religious ones. They are saying it's those with spiritual beliefs who have more issues. If I'm reading this right.
ReplyDeleteFor sure - what is the definition of spiritual? That could be wide open to a lot of pagan belief systems. I consider myself spiritual. I do not believe in a mythical being nor do I follow a book (the bible). My belief system is closer to Religious Science.
Susan, I have yet to meet someone who claims to be spiritual and not religious who didn't spout religious doctrine during our conversations.
DeleteUntil such a time happens, the two are one IMHO.
As I’ve mentioned before, I’ve had too many Invisible Force incidents for it to be chance.
ReplyDeleteIncluded in these incidents was my first SIL trying to contact my deceased mother with an Ouija board? I reluctantly went along, but then cheekily insulted the ghost so well (she deserved it) that the ghost knocked the pointer clear off the board; scared my SIL so bad she put the board away forever.
"Our main finding is that people who had a spiritual understanding of life had worse mental health than those with an understanding that was neither religious nor spiritual." They put the cart in front of the horse. The people were unbalanced first and tried to self-medicate, but they were still alone. A church would offer companionship in exchange for a lighter wallet.
Not the way the Xtian churches are today! They want not only membership from you, they want total control and blind obedience. SOME churches are decent places, but they seem to be mostly the little churches out in the country who quietly live their beliefs and also ACT on them. You know the ones. Tiny little brick or clapboard buildings that always look neat, but in need of some work?
DeleteWe atheists are alone to ourselves, but you'll notice how low on the scale we are compared to the spiritualists.
Great analysis, Darlene!
DeleteThe determining factor seems to me to be magical thinking as opposed to living fully in reality, what-is. Magical thinking is mental, illusory concept. This replaces direct awareness of what-is, reality.
ReplyDeleteWe live experientially, either experiencing reality directly as is presents itself, fully awake and aware, or experiencing reality through the interpreting, coloring filter of beliefs and concepts, which distorts, blurs or entirely obscures simple reality...this something of a dreamy state. The mental state of the latter, being not in touch with reality, becomes susceptible to all manner of delusion and aberration. Losing touch with reality, there's nothing to check further lapse into confused mental states.
That's why meditation is a priceless remedy, cutting through the filter and the confusion, to reality, here, now.
Darlene, I understand what you are saying. I "saw" my long deceased father and while it was a positive experience, it still scared the heck out of me. I pretty much keep these thoughts, possibilities, and experiences to myself or to fellow believers. I am not nuts, don't do drugs and had an extremely successful career.
ReplyDeleteThis is because superstitious beliefs in and of themselves are a mild form of mental illness. It stands to reason that they would find more serious problems among people who have this smaller issue. Now excuse me, I am going to pray to my toaster.
ReplyDeleteSuperstition is not equal to spiritualism. It is just as ugly to ridicule people for their believe as to ridicule for their disbelief.
DeleteThe researchers' conclusion that spirituality is more harmful without a framework of organized religion seems self serving, to say the very least.
ReplyDeleteI would like to read thorough explanations of their own religious and/or spiritual biases. Understandings of the term spirituality seem to be as subjective and multifaceted as the person speaking about it and experiencing it.
Without going into the realm of philosophers, here is a personal example:
"...oh, you say you aren't religious... but you must be spiritual, because you seem so at peace, blah blah blah..." ad absurdum, ad nauseam.
My answer?
"Call me an atheist, secularist, humanist, rationalist or all of the above".
In simple terms, I consider myself a realist who has no need to look for some divine guide behind this absolutely awe inspiring universe, or possibly universes.
I am grateful for the experience of this temporary existence, unafraid of death sooner or later, and at peace within myself.
Well, here's a new wrinkle to this. I was raised in a church. My father taught me that God is a punishing job, whereby I grew up afraid of everything. It's fear that is at the basis of mental illness. How do I know? Because I became mentally ill--acute paranoid schizophrenia--was on thorazine, navane and many other drugs that made the illness worse because of the side effects. I was taken to the psych hospital by the police and forcibly drugged against my will, and at one point I was put into jail in protective custody. I was told I would never get better and my life was over. I made up my mind that I would prove the experts wrong. Through trial and error and learning to live by spiritual principles and not by delusions, hallucinations and listening and acting on the voices I was hearing, I fully recovered. It took about 10 years to relearn how to think, how to change my behavior, etc. I had to take responsibility for my life. I couldn't blame anyone for getting mentally ill such as my father. I had to forgive myself and others. I had to go to work and learn how to work. I broke down many times in the process. It was a lot of excruciating, painful hard work. It's been about 30 years now that I have been recovered, no more drugs, no voices, no hallucinations, and no delusions. I have a great life. I'm happy. I'm resilient. I'm productive. I have great relationships with friends and family. Being religious and attending church caused me to be unbalanced because church/religion was based in fear. All you have to do is listen to the far-right Christians and tea-baggers who watch Fox and listen to the wing-nuts on talk radio; they are pretty paranoid about life and fear God's punishment. They see everything as bad. That was the old me filled with dread and fear about life. I no longer belong to organized religion for this reason and left it many years ago. Now my life is built on faith, hope and love. I'm not ashamed that I have been mentally ill because I'm a better person today because of this deeply, personal experience. By the way, I've worked in mental health many years helping other people learn that they could recover too. Based on my personal experience, I would say that something was missing from this study. It could be they weren't asking the right questions or asking them in a way that was biased. I know many people who have experienced severe mental illness and are recovered today.
ReplyDelete"I would say that something was missing from this study. It could be they weren't asking the right questions or asking them in a way that was biased. I know many people who have experienced severe mental illness and are recovered today."
DeleteSo, I think you are exactly right that something is missing from the study. The element of fear seems to be the cornerstone of organized religion: fear of punishment, fear of abandonment, fear of shunning. How can someone live in perpetual fear and have a healthy life? Likewise, how can following the principles of the teachings of Christ (love, compassion, kindness) in the absence of fear based religion make one more prone to mental illness? Makes no sense to me.
Amy, congratulations on your recovery -- you have enormous willpower, as well as wisdom!
DeleteI agree that fear is the glue that holds people to their "beliefs". I think that the true basis of that fear is what happens after death. It's a lovely fairy tale to be told that you will be reunited with your loved ones, and with Jesus -- if you've been good. And then there are the vast majority of folk who cannot imagine not "living on" in some manner. The human ego is mighty powerful.
On the other hand, there are a few of us who have come to terms with the fact that dying is the end of us. All of us sleep, and are unaware of ourselves or the world while we sleep. Same with death. The difference is....we don't wake up. But it doesn't matter, because we'll never, ever know! Why is that so hard to understand? And to accept?
What happens in my observation is that people who have psychic experiences, moment of mysterious spiritual connection with something/someone, and so on immediately find themselves isolated and demonized by our culture, which creates real trauma; and then sometimes when they seek like-minded people to talk about this stuff, they fall into joining a cult or a religious organization, which rarely helps them sort through, analyze, and break down the very real and fascinating things they perceived.
ReplyDeleteSo you have trauma at two levels: going through something that most people will demonize you for (if you talk about it) and then if you DO get brave enough to try to connect with others in an attempt to find context and provide deeper understanding of these types of experiences, you usually end up in a cesspool of bad situations, dealing with religious mind control, teachers saying "I'm a guru and I have all the power but if you pray to me or give me all your money I might help you find enlightenment," all the usual shit that too often arises out of genuine spiritual perceptions.
Jennifer aka Media Insider aka Lipstick Mystic
PS The really funny thing is the active repression of authentic information about these things. Publishing companies like the ones who were trying to do deals with me wanted to reduce all my life experiences and knowledge down to essentially a 1-900 psychic fortunetelling level of dialogue; this is why I had to start my own publishing company and website. And then you have the military which is still actively recruiting "remote reviewers" and other talented psychics (they tried to recruit me in the late-1990's; long, terrifying story.) But they also maintain plausible deniability and send out official "debunkers" to deny that these black ops programs have existed since the Cold War and never went out of fashion. Recruitment is now done through government and military subcontractors, and what's going on in these programs has gotten a lot worse. They're mostly focused on doing yucky stuff like psychic assassination (psychic attack) techniques and extremely invasive remote scanning of "targets". Truly, it's the stuff of science fiction. Really horrible.
For me, when it comes to spirituality, it's more interesting to see the REPRESSION going on about the REAL stuff and how this leads all reasonable, intelligent people to step away from any authentic exploration of these subjects because it's been designed to be seen as too weird, too insane, etc.
Mental and emotional illness often have their roots in spiritual illness; gifted psychics can help people who are truly ill heal from their problems. But we don't get R & D grants from medical organization; we just get treated like shit. Those of us with 27 some years out in the public talking about these subjects get tired of the blazing arrows of crap stuck in our backs after a while; yet some of us, like me, don't shut up! :) I'm kind of a bitch that way.
Jennifer, you are correct. So many people fail to have open minds and therefore miss so much. I am cautious as to whom I associate with in this arena and don't reveal much to most people. It is a gift I am so thankful for and have relied upon my intuition as well as analytic training for a very successful corporate career.
DeleteI would never stick a blazing arrow in your back but I will tell you to not try to mess with people's heads as a psychic. That pseudo-profession is about kin to faith healing and witchcraft.
DeleteAnd, I'm still staring at the goats.
DeleteDuncan @ 9:23, havin' any luck yet???
DeleteI like your sense of the absurd...
Let's just live to the best of our ability, do the best we can and see the futility of it all with that sense of humor we can employ when we are unfettered...
fromthediagonal,
DeleteI do so agree, I'll be 76 this year, and so far, it has worked quite well.
Jon Ronson (Men Who Stare at Goats) has written some fascinating books on the hidden military mental facilities.
DeleteYes, Duncan, having been in this life for quite some time is giving us advantages...
Deleteif we choose... which may be a riddle for the younger ones?
We can't deny the supernatural. So many people of all faiths, creeds, religions have had experiences, and they weren't on some drug spree. I think we can all agree on that.
ReplyDeleteIt's what each individual decides that 'supernatural' element to be, is what excludes us from each other.
I find it hard to have a discussion with someone who jumps to conclusions about (for instance, christians). Yes, they can be hypocritical and dogmatic and nasty, but the normal ones (who are out there), believe the supernatural element to be controlled by One Creator. So, goes with those who are Muslim, and those who are monotheistic. No one can doubt what they have all experienced the supernatural. And those who claim they have all the answers, like (some) atheists, simply don't have all the answers.
I just wish that those who have a belief, would stop undercutting those who are religious, painting them as ignorant, uneducated, crazy, uncurious, delusional. What I love about life is there are elements out there that some of us have no answers for, and that keeps us seeking until we find them. I personally find solace in believing that the supernatural things that have happened to me are from a loving God. No one has to believe it, but I know what I experienced and it's real to me.
Statisticians can gleen over their numbers on paper, but they haven't experienced the miracles and the unexplained supernatural rescue, which brings peace to their soul. It's not something that can be documented.
No, we definitely can't accept the supernatural. We must deny it all because at closer inspection it all turns out to be a hoax. More and more lately, a hoax that is perped with a motive of bilking good people out of their hardearned money. There is not one supernatural happening that can't be easily explained away. NOT ONE! No sky fairies, no gods, no spaceships, no mindreading, no magic, none of it. It's all hocus-pocus being perped by feeble minds for dishonest reasons.
DeleteIf something brings peace to your soul it's the work of your mind. Or, in actual fact, your own thought process has brought peace to your head. There is nothing mysterious about this in the least. People that think there is would willingly take us back to the days of burning witches! It's shameful and decadent and disgusting and needs to be totally ignored.
DeleteWell known "psychics" are debunked one after another, constantly. It's hard to see this happening, surrounded by the fact that there is no scientific proof to begin with, and not become extremely skeptical.
DeleteI for one am a skeptic. I'm not going to judge you for your beliefs, or paranormal experiences, or spirituality, all I'm sayin' is let's make it happen in the lab so that it becomes a quantifiable, reproducible and testable phenomena and then I'll believe you. Until then, hey, you can "see" or believe whatever you want, just don't expect everyone to accept it without "proof". Some people will think you are crazy and some will be more polite.
If the human race were an experiment,it would have been deemed only partially successful......
ReplyDeleteCorrelation is entirely different than causation. I haven't read the study, but based on the description of the survey, there is no data to support causation. You could be looking at self selection - people dealing with challenges seeking out spiritual guidance as a form of help. For example, AA & NA have strong spiritual principles. So people in recovery via AA would be likely to identify themselves as spiritual. In this scenario, the addiction causes the spirituality, not the other way around.
ReplyDeleteFor those with anxiety, learning meditation techniques is a very effective strategy. A very practical practice of managing one's emotions rather than letting them manage you. Those people might also describe themselves as spiritual.
I love this blog, but getting tired of attacks on people of faith. Faith has nothing to do with religion. And the fundamentalist/extremists of any religion do not represent the whole. Anytime you dump a large group of people into a single category and label them fools, you're falling into the same weak, hateful thinking for which we mock the Palinites.
I'm fine with your choice to be an atheist. I'll not try to convert you. I'm happy to hear your perspective and rationale. Please respect my choice and stop lumping everyone of faith in with the crazies.
Good post anon at 9:15! There's only one point I would have to disagree with and that is that you can't separate religion and faith. That is, faith in the context of which you are trying to use the word. You are or you aren't religious and you can't have it any other way.
DeleteAmen!
DeleteUp fist X 10!
DeleteWell said.
""We conclude that there is increasing evidence that people who profess spiritual beliefs in the absence of a religious framework are more vulnerable to mental disorder."
ReplyDeleteThis is the interesting part. Why is the religious framework important and what does "religious framework" mean? I would speculate it is the manipulation developed by organized religion like what Gryphen's daughter suffered under. Part of the problem is the dogma that is used for indoctrination, but I think the lynchpin is the accompanying culture prevalent in so many of the churches. Churches often instill guilt and a real fear of abandonment to control their masses. If you stray from the flock, you will not only go to the dreaded (and mythical) hell, but you will be abandoned by your religious micro-society. Shunning is a very effective tool to control social, herd-bound animals.
It appears from the quoted statement that spiritual people who do not follow
an organized religion are much less at risk for mental illness than the church/Bible bound participants.
Ooops, said that last paragraph backwards. According to the statement, spiritual people who do not follow an organized religion are much more at risk for mental illness than the church/Bible bound participants. I suspect the study is deeply flawed, but it is difficult to know without seeing the design of the study and how the statistics were interpreted. It will be interesting to see if there are follow-up studies that can replicate the findings. I would also like to see who funded the study.
DeleteWakeUpAmerica: I agree with you. If they would start by interviewing those of us who experienced mental illness through our religions experience, they might design some very different items on their survey. I'd say that the design may be flawed as the researchers more than likely did not have any personal experience with mental illness as a result of religion or spirituality so they had no insight on how to design the items. My delusion was that I was the Virgin Mary. Some of my friends were Jesus Christ, Joan of Arc, and even Satan. And this had nothing to do with whether they were Christian, Hindu or Jewish, or any other religion because we were of different faiths. However, when we talked about these experiences they correlated with our religion experience. We know that, but no one in the research community knows it so you can see how this study may be flawed.
DeleteYou mean, YOU can't deny the supernatural! And NOBODY has all the answers. And, No, we can't all agree on that, since no one can PROVE what they claim. It is too personal.
ReplyDeleteOther than that, for the most part, I can agree with what I THINK is your meaning. We each have our beliefs. We each have our foibles. We each have our "demons".
It took me years to work through to MY spot in seeing and then accepting LUCFT.
I personally don't need a being or a god or whatever you wish to call the "supernatural" entity so many seem to accept. I can understand why some people need it. That is why the T stands for Tolerance.
As for some Atheists "having all the answers", again, no one does. But then, that is true for every, or almost every, group in existence. Some claim to be messiahs, too. For the most part - at least from my experience - that little claim is made mostly by the fanatics of the three monotheistic, middle-eastern religions.
I have a tendency to laugh at people who claim to have all the answers. It's so obviously an idiot's statement. Of course, they get angry, but ...so what?
It's when they try to take over someone's personal control that bad things seriously begin to happen.
LUCFT
Well said.
DeleteKeep in mind, though, that the conclusion was that people who profess "spiritual beliefs in the absence of a religious framework" were more likely to have mental issues. That's not the same as all people who profess spiritual beliefs.
ReplyDeleteBeaglemom
Well hello "all-you'al" (that's plural for "you-all"
ReplyDeletenamaste
Knowing one's self falsely is a dis-ease.
Knowing one's self truly is a rel-ease.
I self-label as advaita-vedantan, I am 100% religious (roots-back-again-connected, lined up).
Living 100% in the church of the now knowledge of the limitless "I AM". Self-evident-sentient-awareness IS (exists). All else is negate-able or can be resolved in systems. The witness is the constant.
Other and me and mine are the confusions within the measured magic of material-mystic-maya.
The vedic view is 100% philosophy of 100% God, Divine One, undivided-limitless-without-other constant Existence .
My thought contribution: dualist religious philosophies and NRAsocieties (sic) reinforce the feeling, illusion of separateness and other and danger and fear. Individuals seeking and churches offering false cures to our existential angst of limited feelings. Miss the non-dual mark of the limitless Tao-flow, dualism reinforces the false feeling of being powerlessly done-on-to. A creation needing to be saved signifies a creator concept needing to be cleared-up.
The doubter, the questioner, the laugher, the actor, the consumer, the mother, sister, daughter, son, brother, uncle, father, employer, you the bossed, all are roles that come and go. The "I AM", the you that knows all this and knows that you don't know; that you who constantly exists in time and space as "I am" is IT.
Well hello "all-you'al" (that's plural for "you-all"
ReplyDeletenamaste
Knowing one's self falsely is a dis-ease.
Knowing one's self truly is a rel-ease.
I self-label as advaita-vedantan, I am 100% religious (roots-back-again-connected, lined up).
Living 100% in the church of the now knowledge of the limitless "I AM". Self-evident-sentient-awareness IS (exists). All else is negate-able or can be resolved in systems. The witness is the constant.
Other and me and mine are the confusions within the measured magic of material-mystic-maya.
The vedic view is 100% philosophy of 100% God, Divine One, undivided-limitless-without-other constant Existence .
My thought contribution: dualist religious philosophies and NRAsocieties (sic) reinforce the feeling, illusion of separateness and other and danger and fear. Individuals seeking and churches offering false cures to our existential angst of limited feelings. Miss the non-dual mark of the limitless Tao-flow, dualism reinforces the false feeling of being powerlessly done-on-to. A creation needing to be saved signifies a creator concept needing to be cleared-up.
The doubter, the questioner, the laugher, the actor, the consumer, the mother, sister, daughter, son, brother, uncle, father, employer, you the bossed, all are roles that come and go. The "I AM", the you that knows all this and knows that you don't know; that you who constantly exists in time and space as "I am" is IT.
I really did need to read that twice... I am IT!
ReplyDeleteYeah, Right... my initials are IAM and I know I am IT in this life.
DeleteI am alive and have been, for better for worse for almost 73 Turns around the Sun and shall be until that last breath, which I hope to meet with courage.
Have to say I cracked up at your simple reply, Duncan. Just tickled my funny bone for no particular reason. I had to read it twice too. I am IT, you are IT, and It is all there is! Namaste!
DeletePS LOVING this thread, what great comments all around!
Doesn't "spiritual beliefs without a religious order" define a lot of cult activity?
ReplyDeleteNone of these findings surprise me, as adherence to the rituals within religion is on par with the ritualistic behavior exhibited by individuals with OCD (Obsessive Compulsive Disorder). However, I believe that the individual does not start out with OCD, it's the repetitive nature of the rituals that leads the individual to develop actual OCD, outside of their religion.
Drug use within the spiritual population also doesn't surprise me. Most stoners and psychedelic users that I know have very real spiritual experiences while using their drug of choice. Some Native American cultures utilized peyote and other psychedelics to get in touch with their spirituality. Priests and shamans from many cultures us drugs to engage with their "spirit worlds". Drugs and spirituality have been tied together as long as man has been questioning his existence.
I think I actually enjoy this life more knowing that it's a one-shot deal and when it's done it's done. Body cremated, atoms set free to be part of something else.
Exactly... energy comes to form at birth, to be released back at death of the form we call life.
DeleteMay the organisms in the waters be hungry when my ashes are scattered upon the Gulf...
So, could there be a cult of one? Many people feel spiritual without forming or joining a group or, btw, doing drugs.
DeleteJust for fun, Google the term "Hyper-religiosity".
ReplyDeleteHINT: It's a certifiable mental illness.
Mental illness... is that what you're worried about? Check out Narcissism for some light entertainment. Interestingly, it doesn't seem to exclude atheists at all. Also, its interesting that there is one type of bigotry that seems to thrive and be accepted in progressive circles. Can you guess what type of bigotry is hip among the compassionate behaviorists nowadays? Hint- it involves ridiculing people for their world view.
ReplyDelete...please look up the term "Objectivity" while you are in "Check-Out" mode... it aligns with Science rather than Religion.
DeleteDone, now you check out zealotry and let me know if it applies to materialist boors. Science is just fine-- you guys on the other hand are the soccer hooligans of science.
DeleteGryphen and Gryhenites, you should read Jon Krakauer's book Under the Banner of Heaven about a Mormon Fundamentalist murder. He writes about the difference between psychosis and religion.
ReplyDeletePray tell...IS there a difference?
DeleteSomething else that might be affecting their results is the reason people choose to describe themselves as "spiritual but not religious." Many in this group start out in a religious practice, and then either leave or are driven out for various reasons, overwhelmingly painful ones. And often those factors contribute to emotional illness. In other words, being "spiritual but not religious" is not, I suspect as emotionally damaging as the reasons why one chooses or is forced to leave a religious denomination, even though one is still "spiritual." I suspect those results might have more to do with the damage that led to the designation, rather than the state of being spiritual and non-religious.
ReplyDeleteSomething else that might be affecting their results is the reason people choose to describe themselves as "spiritual but not religious." Many in this group start out in a religious practice, and then either leave or are driven out for various reasons, overwhelmingly painful ones. And often those factors contribute to emotional illness. In other words, being "spiritual but not religious" is not, I suspect as emotionally damaging as the reasons why one chooses or is forced to leave a religious denomination, even though one is still "spiritual." I suspect those results might have more to do with the damage that led to the designation, rather than the state of being spiritual and non-religious.
ReplyDeleteBodieP: You are right on! That's exactly why I left organized religion. Many of my friends left organized religion for the same reason. After my recovery from mental illness, when I tried to go back to church the pain was too much.
DeleteThis has been a very stimulating topic and so many varied replies. I really enjoyed reading everyone's responses. Thanks everyone I got a lot out of what you had to say and it was all educational. Have a great weekend!
DeleteI so agree, 8:31! Everyone has had thoughtful and interesting responses and all of your life experiences shine through. Thanks for the input. Good on you all!
DeleteInteresting question: what's the chicken? What's the egg?
ReplyDeleteIf an individual is spiritual and mentally balanced, he/she will either join a church or carve out their own spiritual path. The latter can be very healthy: some of the most balanced people I know are yogis who might well describe themselves as "spiritual but not religious." Within my social circle, I'd say the "spiritual, not religious' people I know are more balanced than the conventionally religious people I know.
If an individual is spiritual and not balanced, or has substance-abuse issues, he/she might well not join a mainstream church for the same reason that they don't engage with other aspects of life -- i.e., they don't function well in social settings.
Last thought: we all know that plenty of conventionally religious people have REAL mental health issues, be they personality disorders or mental health issues like paranoia, delusions, etc. Maybe their disorders of choice just aren't the types that are likely to be diagnosed and treated -- maybe because they refuse to admit there's any problem. I mean, think about it: can you imagine a PeePond type admitting to a pollster that he suffers from mental illness? Or seeking treatment for mental illness? Or telling the truth about how much he drinks? (Yeah: me neither)
Kat
I only want to comment on someone (don't remember which of you) who said something about "choosing" to be an atheist. I didn't choose to be an atheist any more than I chose to believe in gravity. I simply don't believe in gods because, despite peoples' personal experiences, there is no proof that any exist. I grew up in the church and believed what my parents and the church told me was true. When I got older and learned to think for myself, I found out that there was no proof for any of what I was told. I became simply unable to continue believing any religious tenents especially after reading and studying how Christianity came into being.
ReplyDeleteVery interesting discussion here. I grew up home-schooled, and part of my education was study of the Christian bible. My father made me read it cover to cover between the ages of about 10 and 22. I memorized parts of it like the 23rd psalm, and the seromon on the mount, that I still know to this day. The spiritual guidance of the bible was impressed on me, but certainly not to the exclusion of other religions. We never went to church, in fact churches were described to me as 'institutions' similar to schools, meant to spread propaganda for the purpose of controlling people. Don't worry Gryphen, I know you are a school teacher and I highly respect that. My own mother became a public school teacher too, after she got fed up with my father's ideas.
ReplyDeleteSo anyway, my father mixed in other religions with Christianity, such as Buddhism, Taoism, Hinduism,Zen, Yoga. And also he lectured us on lots of philosophers (are they spiritual or religious or neither?) such as Henry David Thoreau, Gurdieff, Swedenborg, and even psychics such as Edgar Casey.
Well, so that's my background. I definitely believe in a 'higher power', a 'great spirit' that nutures and unites us, a 'creator' behind the incredibly diverse and divine nature on this planet. I just won't put it in a box. I welcome any viewpoints. I have recently been going to a small church, started by a really cool preacher who felt the call and has now been speaking kind and encouraging messages in the hall of the local primary school. He is so humble and kind, and no collection baskets passed around,I have to give him a chance. My main conflict is with the idea that "you must confess that Jesus Christ is your Lord and Savior who died for your sins" ....or...
Sorry. I am straying from the topic. I am a bit crazy I have to admit. But in a good way. All is well with my mind. I love to challenge people on their beliefs. Or have them challenge me on mine. You all have done that in this thread. Thanks.
Also, Gryphen, I notice you end many of your closing posts with 'namaste'. The Hindu gesture is not religious, maybe not spiritual, but it does indicate respect, and I am sure a feeling of goodwill and God speed.
So I say, Namaste!
I would like to see this study include "Religious but not Spiritual". Or maybe that is considered the same thing as Religious.
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