I actually DO feel better having now heard he President speak on this issue.
However....it must be noted that while the President says he "welcomes the debate," in the very same response he also says that it is important that leaks not occur because it warns potential terrorists of what the government is doing to stop them, when WITHOUT those leaks we would not be having the debate that he now says he welcomes. I found that a little unwieldy.
I also think that it is important to note this part of what the President said, "You can't have 100 percent security, and also then have 100 percent privacy, and zero inconvenience."
It is sad that it is true, but it is also undeniable that it is true.
Cost of security is a societal debate we need to have... Soon.
ReplyDeleteLiving in both the US and Canada, i see a world of difference.
Shit happens everywhere... When someone falls on icy pavement pr a kid breaks an arm at the park, in Canada, they go to the hospital, get it fixed and learn a lesson about being careful.
When that happens in the US, everyone starts suing everyone else, as if there HAS to be a culprit. The notion of accident or mishap is completely gone.
Same with security. Is it worth losing your soul as a nation to avoid the occasional, very unlikely event?
Canada is not going around foisting her 'religion' on otehr countries. Canada did not decimate Iraq or Afghanistan. No one has attacked Canada. We live in a nation that glorifies war and guns. Until THAT changes, we will be under surveillance. SAd but true.
DeleteThere doesn't have to be leaks to have this debate. People were already having the debate, it's just that nobody was listening, until now. I am always on the internet, and I have never once believed that I have complete privacy, not from the government, hackers, or anybody. And, it's not like people didn't already know about this. The NSA story was reported back in 2006. This is getting a lot more attention now because the president is black, and a democrat.
ReplyDelete>>his is getting a lot more attention now because the president is black, and a democrat.
DeleteBINGO!
But not just that. Glenn Greenwald has been salivating at the chance to take Obama down and he is writer of the article published in the UK. He's a disgusting piece of vermin I would NEVER call a journalist, and I hope he gets his ASS handed to him for leaking of information that DIRECTLY gives possible terrorists carte blanche to our national security information/activity. FUCK him, bigtime. And fuck the sensationalist media for their ginning this up even more.
We have a wonderful President of the USA that is carrying a huge load on those shoulders. He is trying to protect us - nothing more - nothing less. He is doing a hell of a job! Thank you, Mr. President!
ReplyDeleteNo, Gryphen, you were right the first time when you pointed out that Obama has, as the NYT says, "lost all credibility"!! (ok, they did amend that today to say he's only lost all credibility "on this issue", but seriously, the actual words published in "America's newspaper of record" aren't all that important, are they?)
ReplyDeleteIn fact, it's MUCH worse than anyone can imagine! I just heard a rumor that the Drudgery Report is about to reveal that Obama is planning to arrest EVERYONE in America and detain them INDEFINITELY in shuttered Montgomery-Wards and Crown Book stores across the country. But it gets even WORSER: all of the 350,000,000 detainees will - for no pay and a cup of cold oatmeal a day - have to weave Muslin prayer rugs and hand write Chinese fortune cookies for the growing overseas market controlled by Dick "Dick" Cheney's Halliburden Industries!!!
This is NOT the Hope & Change I voted for in 2008! And 2012, also, too....
On the positive side, I'm glad you feel a little better after hearing our president speak directly to the American people. So do I, even tho indefinite detainment in a bankrupt shopping mall still sucks.
I usually do not buy into conspiracy theories but it is strange that we have such a plethora of scandals brought to the fore all of a sudden. Moles? An organized plan to try to destroy Obama?
ReplyDeleteIt smells fishy to me.
And it takes away from the real work of the country, which is to help her citizens. The GOP doesn't even have to mention jobs bills and tax reform when they are grandstanding aobut spies and pretending no President EVER had the ability to do this, let alone that the GOP thinks it's grand when Bush does it.
Delete>>It smells fishy to me.
DeleteOh I soooo agree with you. This is all about staining President Obama's legacy, making him an impotent president.
It's about tarnishing President Obama by disrupting his agenda, stalling his influence and robbing him of his credibility. They want people so disgusted with President Obama for all these so called (bullshit) 'scandals', and by extension, Democrats. AND you can be SURE that we will start to see midterms election ads with exactly that connection, just watch.
It's about the midterm elections. If people have decided to be disgusted with Democrats, then everyone will vote in Republicans as the alternative.
This will result, on a state level, stacking the country with even more GOP Governors, and more GOP Senators, so that they can take back the Senate and in doing so FULLY assure their public lynching of President Obama's presidency. And those GOP Reps and Senators will be mostly extreme right leaning, tparty, theocratic, GOP politicians.
And finally, if they can get the country to turn again President Obama, then by extension, they reason that people will also turn against Hillary, since they will frame it that she served under him and so she also is 'tainted'.
And then there's a right wing demagogue that lands in the White House.
So now we have a HOUSE, a SENATE and a PRESIDENT who are extreme, theocratically driven, anti-woman, anti-gay, anti-immigration, pro-corporate, pro-1%, pro-voter suppression, anti-Black, Hispanic, Muslim. Pro-gun, pro-war, anti-Iran, pro-Israel, pro-Gitmo...oh, god, I'm making myself depressed.
Yes, this is an insidious, concerted plan to disenfranchise the president of the United States. A man who was voted in, by significant margins, TWICE.
A man who a majority of Americans said this is the man that I want for my president.
A man who has worked tirelessly to fulfill the promises he made, to bring this country into the 21st Century. BUT, because he's black (and a Democrat), there dare not be any chance for a scandal free, progressive, compassionate, reasonable, successful presidency. That would put him in higher regard historically that all the WHITE presidents, and there is no way that they could stand that.
For me THAT is the REAL scandal here, and Americans should be shouting from the ROOFTOPS about it as it unfolds before our very eyes. All these faux scandals are just 'shiny objects', the real agenda is as sinister and reprehensible as anything I have seen in my lifetime and I'm no spring chicken!
The good news is that it seems that most Americans aren't buying it, no matter how they scream and holler SCANDAL! Each time President Obama comes forward and explains to Americans what is the reality, as opposed to the media 'reality', the right wing 'reality'.
So Gryphen, when you justify that President Obama isn't up for election, and Hillary is too far down the road, I suggest that you have not thought this all the way through and that you have been distracted by the 'shiny objects', too.
Helping to securing President Obama's legacy should be one of the most important things we can do. Destroying his legacy is FOREMOST in the plans of those who want to stop him. This is big, this is HISTORY, this is what will go down in the records that will be referred to for years and years, over thousands of news programs, and media articles, and discussions about his presidency.
Beware of shiny objects. Really. I mean it.
1:35pm
DeleteGreat comment! I'm posting your entire comment on my facebook page!
There is a very good reason why the government is doing this: people are plotting terror attacks against the US 24/7, both inside the US and out. These people are extremely dedicated, and very dangerous.This is really the ONLY effective way that the government can first screen, and then trace, certain dangerous individuals BEFORE it is too late.
ReplyDeleteDidn't the now-accusing, overly self-righteous media learn ANYTHING from the Boston Marathon massacre????? Are they and the accusing public so incredibly stupid as to believe that people, and not computers, are doing the actual 'listening'??? Time for a reality check, folks: there aren't enough government employees in the entire government to listen to even the daily phone calls of the residents of any single American city – and most government agencies are losing employees, not hiring employees. The media is trying to snooker all of America, not just the dumbed-down and incredibly stupid Fox audience, to a new level of stupidity, and it seems to be working – even on liberal blogs such as this.
I totally 'get it', however: it's all for ratings, and media advertising revenues are dropping precipitously. Creating a new outrage or, better yet, several of them, will dramatically increase media revenues.
My question in all of this: where in the heck is Joe Biden???? I have not seen him ONCE open his mouth to support the President, the Justice Department, The IRS, or the NSA. But I am not surprised. I totally 'get this', too: without a huge scandal that could lead to a complete erosion of Obama's support, and then a subsequent impeachment, Biden knows that he has no chance whatsoever of ever becoming President.
Such a disingenuous reaction to the NSA thing. What did we think they did in that big building near Fort Meade? Employers can read our e-mails. Facebook data mines and no one complains about that. Lots of phony hand-wringing going on. First, it was surmised that President Obama would be soft on terrorists. Now everyone is upset because he's behaving like a hawkish president. What happened to the outrage after the Marathon bombing? How do you think you gather intelligence to thwart future attacks? Can't have it both ways, folks.
ReplyDeleteHas there been a single media comment about HOW LONG that building at Ft. Meade has been doing its dastardly thing? No. Because it pre-dates Kennedy, among other things.
DeleteWe all knew this was coming. Interesting how quickly the Bush administration clamped down within days of 9/11 and not one of these nitwits who are screaming at the top of their lungs now made a peep during the advent of the Patriot Act. Only liberals made noise and it was drowned out with the yellow ribbons on cars the “If you’re not with us, you are against us” narratives that held sway in the early days of the Iraq military/industrial generated war. I have been sick of this faux hand wringing by the right-wing nutjobs since the day Obama became president. They are so ridiculously transparent and racist at heart. A person I worked with told me her son was taken from his post at the NSA and put on this project to listen to “background chatter” a few days after 9/11. I thought she was kidding, but later read about the program in the NY Times. It is creepy beyond creepy to think this doesn’t matter as eventually laws that invoke privacy will be compromised in all aspects of law if we don’t pay attention.
ReplyDeleteObama is really not telling the truth about this.
ReplyDeleteIt is much more than metadata
Every digital communication(telephone and email is routed through the NSA
It is then datamined by NSA
Of course they cant listen to every call or read every email
But they certainly are analyzing the content.
Where was the outrage 10 [or more, not sure of dates] years ago when this legislation was passed by CONGRESS? Jus' wondrin'...
ReplyDeleteFacts Always Win Over Feigned Outrage
ReplyDeleteIs it just me or does the entire news media – as well as all the agitators and self-righteous bloviators on both sides of the aisle — not understand even the rudiments of electronic intercepts and the manner in which law enforcement actually uses such intercepts? It would seem so. Because the national eruption over the rather inevitable and understandable collection of all raw data involving telephonic and internet traffic by Americans would suggest that much of our political commentariat, many of our news gatherers and a lot of average folk are entirely without a clue. You would think that the government was listening in to the secrets of 200 million Americans from the reaction and the hyperbole being tossed about. And you would think that rather than a legal court order which is an inevitable consequence of legislation that we drafted and passed, something illegal had been discovered to the government’s shame.
http://davidsimon.com/we-are-shocked-shocked/
http://theobamadiary.com/2013/06/07/facts-always-win-over-feigned-outrage/
Stop Freaking Out About the NSA
ReplyDeleteThe government’s phone surveillance isn’t Orwellian. It’s limited and supervised.
...Chill. You can quarrel with this program, but it isn’t Orwellian. It’s limited, and it’s controlled by checks and balances.
The program’s purpose, according to administration officials and knowledgeable members of Congress, is to find out who’s been calling or receiving calls from phone numbers linked to known or suspected terrorists. If Tamerlan Tsarnaev had been in contact with somebody flagged as a possible jihadist operative, this is the kind of surveillance that would have brought him to the attention of counterterrorism investigators, even without Russian assistance.
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/frame_game/2013/06/stop_the_nsa_surveillance_hysteria_the_government_s_scrutiny_of_verizon.html
Why Americans Don’t Fear the NSA
When it comes to protecting us from terrorists, we trust our government will do the right thing.
Polls suggest that people often support measures to catch terrorists that infringe on civil liberties. In a New York Times/CBS poll taken after the Boston Marathon bombing, 78 percent of people said surveillance cameras were a good idea. A CNN poll taken a month later showed the same support for cameras, but that poll indicated that there were limits. People were asked if they would allow "expanded government monitoring of cell phones and email to intercept communications" to catch suspected terrorists. Fifty-nine percent said they would not be OK with that.
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2013/06/nsa_domestic_surveillance_american_voters_trust_the_government_to_fight.html
"The program’s purpose, according to administration officials and knowledgeable members of Congress, is to find out who’s been calling or receiving calls from phone numbers linked to known or suspected terrorists"
DeleteVery well said...people think that their privacy is on the line but little do they know that the govt. is only paying attention to suspected terror perpetrators that are on a list like a "no fly list"
And the President is also right in saying that we don't need to give terrorists a heads up on what we are trying to do. I think he is trying to give Americans rest on this issue but at the same time wants to say stfu media.
One Nation under Surveillance
ReplyDeleteObama is worse than Nixon
Oh my! For once, I actually agree with our resident troll's logic!
DeleteSince Nixon is dead and Obama is President and allegedly doing the Surveillance, I have to agree with you. "One Nation Under God" DOES translate to "God is watching us", which MUST mean "Obama is God"
I like it!
OT:
ReplyDeleteThey made an arrest in the ricin letters: http://news.yahoo.com/texas-actress-charged-obama-ricin-threat-230606198.html
Texas actress. Somehow the name Shannon Richardson sounds so familiar.
This is not the SNL nutjob. But I'm so sure I remember her name as another right wing whacko actress spewing brainless drivel against Obama. Secret muslim Kenyan stuff.
And now we find out WaPo is backing way, way, way away from Greenwald's claims
ReplyDeletehttp://theobamadiary.com/2013/06/08/rise-and-shine-523/
" "You can't have 100 percent security, and also then have 100 percent privacy, and zero inconvenience."
ReplyDeleteIt is sad that it is true, but it is also undeniable that it is true. "
Get it right.........Without 100% privacy, you can't have 100% security and you will always be inconvenienced. The farther you get from 100% privacy, the farther you get from 100% security and the more inconvenienced you are.
Examples?
Say a "group" broke into the public bathrooms in "the World Trade Center" and were spying on people doing their business. Imagine the uproar. "This must be stopped!"
So, would the correct way to handle this be to identify the group, get a court order to use surveillance on the group to gather evidence, then arrest them and get them off the street?
Or would the correct way be to create new government agencies to spy on all bathroom use in America because bathrooms are tied to this terroristic group? Would you feel safer and more secure doing your duty in the bathroom with government agents searching you and cameras watching you in every bathroom in the country? Would you feel more safe and secure being treated like a suspected bathroom terrorist just because you had to go and terrorists use bathrooms?
This is what you've accepted by accepting TSA and Homeland security and the Patriot Act into your lives because of one completely preventable act. (secure cockpits from passengers and 9-11 never happens) You gain unacceptable government intrusion into you lives. And that should make you feel very insecure and vulnerable.
ReplyDeleteRather than point to particular officials, such as Bush and Obama, it might be worthwhile assuming that the government itself has an interest that can encroach on the liberties of its citizens. There are of course legal opinions on the taking of troves of personal data. Here is an ethical analysis: http://www.thewordenreport.blogspot.com/2013/06/verizon-reporting-phone-logs-of-people.html
Director Of National Intelligence Clapper Defends Spying Programs, Accuses Media Of ‘Rush To Publish’
ReplyDeleteDirector of National Intelligence James Clapper released a memo Saturday afternoon addressing the various national security leaks this week, probably the most retweeted link in @ODNIgov’s history.
“Over the last week we have seen reckless disclosures of intelligence community measures used to keep Americans safe,” Clapper wrote in a statement published on the DNI’s website. “In a rush to publish, media outlets have not given the full context—including the extent to which these programs are overseen by all three branches of government—to these effective tools.”
Clapper confirmed the legality of the various intelligence gathering programs, and defended the government’s reticence in revealing information about them.
“Our ability to discuss these activities is limited by our need to protect intelligence sources and methods,” Clapper said. “Disclosing information about the specific methods the government uses to collect communications can obviously give our enemies a ‘playbook’ of how to avoid detection.”
The information is so classified, in fact, that Clapper finds his hands tied in refuting the inaccurate information he says the Guardian and the Washington Post published on Wednesday and Thursday, respectively. However, Clapper did declassify some details about the program in an attempt to assuage critics.
Read the full memo below:
http://www.mediaite.com/online/director-of-national-intelligence-clapper-defends-spying-programs-accuses-media-of-rush-to-publish/
You know, I almost find this debate the same as the gun debate. I'm with the President on this, providing he is telling the truth that the govt. isn't spying on conversations, until necessary. I'm sure they won't be looking at actual conversation until they see a certain pattern of individuals that might be proporting some kind of terrorist act. If you have nothing to hide in your day to day life, you should not be concerned. Its like gWun owners that get their arms up about govt taking their guns away, when in fact the govt is not taking away anyone's guns. Paranoia by certain people is a sure sign of hiding something. When you have dangerous Militia groups out there plotting assassinations, terrorist affiliated people doing the same I think the govt has every right to keep Americans safe and track these types of crazies.
ReplyDelete