I always find it laughable when religious people refer to Atheists as arrogant.
We are anything but. We openly admit how little we know and how willing we are to have our minds changed by new information.
All that we know for certain is that the answer to the great mysteries of life were absolutely not answered thousands of years ago by primitive desert dwellers.
The rhetoric from Christians about Atheists has always made me giggle. It is designed to scare the great unwashed from questioning the bullshit that emanates from the dogma. The charge of arrogance is pure projection.
ReplyDeleteAbsolutely, the charge of arrogance is pure projection. It's also hilarious that some Christians get so pissy when their proselytizing is met with a shrug.
DeleteI don't thnk I see things as as black and white as you do. I think there are arrogant Christians, and humble Christians, perhaps with a servant's heart. I think there are arrogant atheists, who think they are smarter than people who identify as Christian, and there are humble atheists, just doing their best to make sense of this crazy world as best they can, without judgment as to the beliefs of others (which is separate from judgments about political action based on those beliefs).
ReplyDeleteReally? When was the last time that you had an Atheist come to your door and tell you that they had the answers to explain life's mysteries, and told you that if you did not believe them you were going to be punished, not just in this life, but for all eternity?
Delete@5:40
DeleteTo add to what Gryphen said:
Or had them get angry with you because you laughed when they said that?
Yes, you are right about there being arrogant and humble people of all beliefs. But he does have a major point in that the theists don't proselytize, nor do they demand political power so they may destroy the very foundation of religious freedom in this country. That seems to be primarily the evangelical extremists.
At least, for now.
I've never had an Atheist come to my door to tell me they had the answers. But there's more than one way to be arrogant. Are you really suggesting there are no arrogant atheists who think anyone who believes in "x" are idiots?
DeleteI have to admit that Gryphen doesn't go to people's doors to convince them that atheism is true. However, the definition of prosyltize is:
Deleteconvert or attempt to convert (someone) from one religion, belief, or opinion to another.
(according to: https://www.google.com/#q=proselytize&spell=1)
I'd say I've sure met some atheists that go out of their way to convince others that there is no god.
And I've sure met atheists who lump all those who self-identify as Christian in one, negatively identified group of jerks.
I agree that I don't know atheists that demand political power to destroy religious freedom. I know a lot of people who self-identify as Christian that also don't demand political power to destroy religious freedom.
Some atheists, like some religious people, proselytize. Oh maybe not door to door, but they do it in social situations. Most people like to proselytize their beliefs to some extent. As for atheists not being arrogant, Gryphen, by his own admission, is arrogant, but I don't think it has to do with being an atheist. I suspect his atheism is a by-product of his intellectual arrogance. He often implies that people of faith are inferior to the superior cognitive abilities of scientists and atheists.
DeleteIt's all pretty absurd as religious people wait impatiently for the second coming that doesn't come and the brilliant scientists invent things that continue to destroy the earth. Of course there are the wonderful by-products of science, but I think about the dead whale in yesterday's news with the stomach full of plastic. There is always a price to be paid for the wonderful inventions and their inevitable toxic by-products. While science creates better and more effective antibiotics, their presence in our ground water and food chain just creates better and more resistant bacteria.
The earth, I fear, is in its death throes. The path of destruction is accelerating.
9:30, I suppose you think Atheists are "proselytizing" after being forced to listen to Christian blathering and then daring to have a different opinion. You remind me of that cartoon of a Christian beating a non-Christian with a cross, and when the non-Christian takes the cross that's beating him and breaks it in two, the Christian wails that he's being persecuted.
Delete@4:06 - how did you jump from what 9:30 said to questioning his response to being forced to listen to Christian blathering.... THat's an awful big jump, with a lot of judgments and faith and not many facts.
DeleteIs there no one who has met a person who self-identifies as Christian and who cares deeply about the world, and dislikes the infusion of national politics into their church? I know I have, and I don't self-identify as Christian. As I thnk about this, I think of Andrew Sullivan, who open acknowledges his faith, and his lack of understanding. Who shares what he knows, and doesn't know, which to me is different than proselytizing.
DeleteI have been exposed to both narrow-minded theists and narrow-minded atheists. I have seen both proselytize and show extreme intolerance for opposing views. I have seen both refuse to entertain opposing ideas. One is not better than the other when it comes to compassion. One is also not better than the other when it comes to evil.
DeleteTo Gryphen and Leland,
DeleteI have had them come IN the door and explain they had the answers to life's mysteries. As for eternal punishment, that belongs to many groups other than atheists. I will grant you that.
As for Leland's comments, I have seen atheists bait and ridicule Christians in the most cruel way. Perhaps you didn't mean that atheists take the higher road in these debates, but rest assured there are plenty of rigid asshole atheists on that side of the fence as well. I can't say that I understand why anyone gets in the middle of anyone else's religion or lack thereof unless it is impacting them in some negative way as in politics. It's kind of like getting in the middle of someone else's sexuality.
Apparently you never heard of the USSR, Leland. Atheists in this country may not go door to door, but that doesn't mean they are all benevolent everywhere.
ReplyDeleteITA with 5:40. Oh and there was NOTHING humble about Carl Sagan. He was as arrogant as he was brilliant, and as unwilling to consider a challenge to his belief system as the most fervent Xian. He thought he had all the answers too-- but no one does.
Wrong on Carl Sagan, he did not think he had all of the answers. But he thought he had a pretty strong handle on many of the questions.
DeleteOne problem with the irrational fear people have about communism and socialism is that they assume that they both center around atheism and tiny minds assume they all lump together in one big ism. People can live as communists and socialists and still be theistic. People can be atheists and have no interest in either communism or socialism. Tiny minds also constantly accuse others of thinking they have all the answers.
DeleteOkay, 7:26. I stand corrected. I AM only able to state categorically what I personally am exposed to. And I sort of made a flat statement.
DeleteBTW, by "this country", did you mean the US or Russia? Do you live in the US or Russia?
And it may only be that atheists don't proselytize because of fear. But it still doesn't refute the idea that atheists don't proselytize. Well, in the US, anyway, bowing to your point.
And it doesn't alter the fact that atheists aren't trying to overturn the ideas of the US Constitution to make this into a so-called christian country, despite the indisputable fact this country was created Secular.
In one aspect about Sagan, I can agree with you, however. He DID refuse to accept challenges to his belief systems!
Yup! Flat refused to accept that there is something wrong with science as a guiding source - ESPECIALLY if that challenge came from religious sources and all the incredible arrogance that went along with religious arguments.
@8:25.
Delete"Tiny minds also constantly accuse others of thinking they have all the answers."
Personally, I find those who want to constantly accuse others of having all the answers don't have tiny minds - as long as they are attempting to contradict those who actually DO claim they have all the answers.
Carl Sagan seems to have had a brilliant mind. His double dose of arrogance clouds his brilliance.
DeleteReally? When was the last time that you had an Atheist come to your door and tell you that they had the answers to explain life's mysteries, and told you that if you did not believe them you were going to be punished, not just in this life, but for all eternity?
ReplyDeleteAre you suggesting that those who prosyletize represent all Christians? or all people who self-identify as Christians?
I'm not suggesting there aren't arrogant, self-important people who self-identify as Christians. I'm suggesting there are humble people who truly care about this crazy world who self-identify as Christian.
It's just not the primitive desert dwellers but all other religions as well that had nothing to do with the creation of the earth or man. They are all just stories, stories that people take way too seriously.
ReplyDeleteGryphen, your claim of not being arrogant is contradicted by your characterization of the society depicted in the new testament as primitive desert dwellers. The text reflects a complex and sophisticated society, firmly on a path of scientific curiosity and discovery, governed by a highly organized leadership, organized around commerce and an economy highly developed, etc. etc. A case could be made that American society is little more and in some measure, less advanced than was the society of that time. While I agree with much of your posture, disparaging characterizations and polemics like this detract from your argument that your views are measured and based on facts and logic.
ReplyDeleteI'm sorry I am stating facts not opinion.
DeleteClearly a society that lived over two thousand years ago is more primitive than our own.
You also need to remember that they had no understanding for what caused illness, thought the sky above them was in inverted ocean, and believed that crops could be saved through animal sacrifice.
Yeah I think the term "primitive" is more than fitting.
My point is that the measure is relative to the time. The society of the time was as advanced as many and more so than most. Meanwhile, contemporary America operates without health care for all as advanced societies provide, with devotion and expense for military purposes akin to the Romans destroying hundreds of thousands in Iraq and elsewhere all for oil, with state sponsored religious conviction similar to those times, with indifference to poverty unparalleled amongst western countries, with sporting events framed as military expressions of special favor with some god. Alaska was recently led by a woman who joins others in claiming their god wields assault on the health of sinners, that earth is 6000 years old, that weird people can influence political outcomes by laying on of hands, and that animals are fair game as sacrifice to the gods of pretend reality tv. Using your yardstick of primitive and advanced, when exactly did things cross the line to not be primitive. Was it with Galileo, with Ronald Reagan, with the quitting as Governor of Sarah Palin or are things advanced today but primitive yesterday? I appreciate you pump out a lot of commentary, much of it strong, but at times, a bit primitive.
DeleteWell, Gryphen, if you think all ancient societies were primitive, you should probably do some research on ancient Egyptians and ancient Muslims. I think you will be shocked at how sophisticated they were. Some of their inventions are still used today in medicine. Fail.
DeleteI think Carl Sagan's point about humility in the revelations that science somehow got convoluted with a discussion about religion and arrogance because of Gryphen's observation. Could there have been "primitive desert dwellers" who looked up at the stars with awe and wonder just as many of us do today?
ReplyDeleteAs an atheist, I know that the world went on before I was born, and will continue after I die.
The world owes me nothing and I feel no need to proselytize the facts of science nor the questions that remain. I'm no better nor worse than friends and acquaintances who are believers, we just agree to disagree, and for the most part, we get along just fine.
I draw the line at someone wagging their finger in my face and telling me I'm going to hell or one with the arrogance to think the "answers" that work for them re: religion, should apply to me because there's a lot of misinformation about atheism, humanity, morality, etc.
From a different perspective, if you are truly an atheist, then you are, indeed, as arrogant as the full throated believer of any religion. Each is willing to say, without equivocation, that they know the unknowable. I really think that most people who blithely call themselves atheists are, in fact, agnostic - people who think that they don't have enough information to know whether there is a supreme being or not. Rejecting established religion is not, in and of itself, denying the existence of a supreme being. In your post, Gryphen, you say that you are still searching for answers, which will be a rather clear statement of being agnostic on the issue. An atheist isn't seeking answers, he/she knows there is no god as clearly as the believer knows that there is a god.
ReplyDelete