A Kansas state representative has introduced a bill that would allow teachers and caregivers to spank children up to 10 times, hard enough to cause redness and bruising, according to a report.
House member Gail Finney, a Democrat from Wichita, said the bill aims to restore parental rights, according to KCTV5.
It takes current law a step further, allowing parents or anyone given parental permission to spank children hard enough to leave a mark. Spanking is now allowed as long as it doesn’t leave marks.
“This bill basically defines a spanking along with necessary reasonable physical restraint that goes with discipline, all of which has always been legal,” said Britt Colle, a deputy county attorney in Macpherson County, who gave Finney the idea for the bill, KCTV5 said.
The bill rules out hitting children with fists, a belt or a switch, or hitting them on the head or the body other than the buttocks, the report said.
Oh gee you can't use your fists, well then I guess it must be all right.
What the hell is wrong with these people.
The research is clear that hitting children simply reinforces aggressive behaviors, interferes with the child/parent bond, and can lead to terrible abuse directed at the child.
Trust me on this point, I work with some of the most difficult children in the state, and modify behaviors using redirection, positive reinforcement, and reasonable, non-violent consequences, every single day. I have seen incredible progress made by even the most disruptive and angry children you can imagine.
Children should respect their teachers, not fear them. They will learn far better if they are dealt with in a patient and understanding manner rather than bullied into compliance.
But let me make one thing clear, if I were a parent in Kansas whose child came home with a teacher inflicted bruise, I would be all in favor of corporeal punishment. And trust me, there WOULD be closed fists involved.
Update: Good news, the bill is dead.
She needs a good licking!
ReplyDeleteLiquor up front.
DeletePoker in the rear.
I’ve certainly been tempted to swat kids, but yeah, that only makes them more aggressive. I’ve got to give my stepson credit for taking parenting classes, and giving his sons a Time Out. Nothing could reduce the youngest to tears faster than a Time Out.
ReplyDeleteOn the other hand, I’m writing up a brief family history for my cousins (at their request). My mother was Grandma’s preferred whipping boy (girl), and we’re talking broom handles. When Mom married Dad, Grandma came to live with them and tried to resume the abuse. Rather than hit Grandma, Dad just kicked her out of the house, his version of a Time Out, and someone else had to take her. Unfortunately, Mom slid right into the same pattern of needing to abuse someone, and used religion to justify it. “You’re going to hell!” I’m not sure if it was nurture or nature, but my money’s on nature.
It's only lasting result is to teach children that the way to settle life's annoyances is to not look for cleverer ideas, lose control and apply violence.
ReplyDeleteChildren that were forced behind the shed for a belt-beating are the same ones hoarding AK-47s
DeleteWhat an excellent plan. Hit kids rather than work with them on behavior. Good way to create more impulsive gun shootings.
ReplyDeleteSo very true! How do kids who get beat by adults learn non violent conflict resolution skills with their peers? How do young men learn how to respect young ladies?
DeleteI wonder what that woman's children would say. As I see it, the real problem is that if someone is so angry at a child that he/she would hit the child ten times, it seems quite likely that the person would continue to hit the child beyond "the legal limit" and cause real damage. I think the idea is just dumb and I am disappointed that a person who considers herself to be a Democrat would be a party to it. Also that the idea would come from a woman. But then, life is full of surprises - unfortunately many of them are not happy surprises.
ReplyDeleteBeaglemom
Bruises take awhile to show up.
ReplyDeleteIf ANY adult ever laid a hand on my kid, they'd be on their back looking up at me with blood gushing from their smashed nose.
ReplyDeleteI see you and Gryphen are of the same school of thought. You claim that violence has no place in settling problems, then you jump right on the violence bandwagon. Do you see the irony here?
DeleteOh I am not against all violence.
DeleteI am against using deadly force, and hurting those who are smaller and weaker than you are.
However if a grown man were to strike my child I would have little problem demonstrating the error of their ways.
Of course if the teacher were a woman I would have to settle for a sharply worded dressing down.
So you admit that violence or a beating can be a justified solution to a problem? Then you aren't living the message you are trying to teach children, that violence isn't the way to settle your problems. Adults fighting each other is no different than adults being disrespectful to each other. Kids see and learn.
DeleteMaybe the gun violence is escalating so that we would prefer, as a society, we police each other with our hands, than bullets? Sad business all around.
ReplyDeleteBy the way, Zimmerman now gets to play the victim card, he should do a Blood Libel video with Michael Dunn and Sarah Palin.
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/features/blogs/gone-viral/os-george-zimmerman-angry-mob-miami-20140219,0,1129910.post
Sociopaths have always needed a reason to lord their power and brute strength over others, if they don't have the goods to back it up, they simply gather a lynch mob. Plenty of this ilk to bolster an atmosphere of fear. Today they do it by hording guns and making bullets by the ton, they can't wait to be judge, jury, enslaver and executioner when the End Times come.
ReplyDeleteThe first thing that comes to mind. 10 lashes for slaves. I certainly do want anyone else to spank my child, grandchild period. Especially people at school. School employees give preference to certain children and not others, I have seen it over and over. What is so stupid, in my grandsons school, they were not allowed to speak at lunch. after school, waiting for the bus, they weren't supposed to talk, Schools are run like prisons nowadays, are they supposed to get corporal punishment like that too? I don't care if she is a democrat, it's just plain wrong. I've think that over the years of my life I've learned some things. The more you yell, the more often you yell. The more you spank, the more often you spank. I'm so tired of the reality show environment, everybody yelling, fighting, no one can just be civil! too much drama, nobody can be normal.
ReplyDeleteGryphen, you're sort of on the right track, but as usual you got the details wrong.
ReplyDeleteThe actual common sense rules for beating children has always been and should always be
1) Try to avoid extended loss of consciousness in a child under 12
2) Try to avoid any significant loss of blood
You follow those simple two rules, you're gonna raise a whole mess of happy, well adjusted, severely obedient kids who are very unlikely to murder you in your sleep.
(But keep your bedroom door locked at night, just in case)
That's funny! My parents always locked their bedroom and in fact I'd never been into my parents side of the house and their bedroom until I was an adult. Things that make you go hmmm....I always thought they were running a sex ring, but perhaps they were just afraid!
DeleteThis bill is an idiocy. No worker should be allowed to hit another human, just because he's a kid, if that worker hitting adults is not allowed.
ReplyDeleteAs for parents... I know I'm going to get hell, but I do slap or spank my kids on the occasion. For intermediate bad behaviour which needs immediate action. Like fighting with each other while I'm driving, or insulting one another in front of me, or slamming the door so hard I fear there'll be damage, and I'm renting so... For small behaviour it's a verbal reprimand. For very bad behaviour, of if the intermediate bad behaviour escalates post spank, they get a time out then an explanation later on, and some week-long punishment.
My youngest has a tendency to trash his room in time-outs, something I can't allow, so last time I put him in a warm bath and told him he was doing a temper tantrum out of tiredness and nothing would help him better relax and come to his senses. It did work...
My kids say my slaps and spanks don't hurt -unlike Dad's and their grandmother's. I tell them spanking is not about hurting, it's about a fast and physical disaproval, just like a kiss is about a fast and physical reward.
Meanwhile, I know parental slaps and spanks really upset social workers - but I find that light physical pain is a lot easier to bear than psychological pain, and time-outs and word tirades can be dire psychological pain. My kids are already enough submitted to psychological pain when they visit with their verbal abuser of a father, and I've experimented firtshand his ways before divorcing him. He's a guy whose words are worse than punches...
So... I find that parents who (lightly) slap or spank their kids are not such monsters after all.
I'd love to hear Gryphen's and other poster's advice about that though.
I agree with everything you say. And I think we were married to the same man.
DeleteI don't think you're a monster, but I do think you should find non physical ways for even those occasions you spoke of. What do you teach your kids when an insult or slamming a door results in a smack from a bigger person? This will sound harsher than I mean it to sound, but it seems your kids need one parent who will neither psychologically or physically hurt them. Sure, light physical pain is better than deep psychological pain, but why can't your kids have neither from their parents.
DeleteKids need to learn it's not right to put their hands on others out of frustration or anger. Would it be ok for my husband to even lightly smack me if I slammed a door? Why would you think it would be ok for me to do the same to my kids?
agree totally with you 8:26.
Delete7:46, I think I was married to him, too.
7.46 and 9.04 : Many people are verbal abusers - just know that meeting one can happen to anyone, but not anyone is strong enough to escape them. Be proud of yourselves !
Delete8:26 Thanks for your advice. In theory, I would agree with it - I would love to manage my kids without ever having to slap them, ever so lightly.
But they're not zombies, they're pretty lively and they have moments of appalling behavior, just like normal kids. In practice, I don't know what to do then to express my disaproval in a fast and efficient way - that halts them right there in their tracks.
All I've watched other people do when kids had temper tantrums was psychological harm imo. I really think that a light slap on the hand, cheek or buttock (what I call a spank) is much better for them that a "why did you do that ? are you an idiot ?" hostile half hour interrogatory.
As for your questions re husband/kids, it's in the context of having to raise them, and having to make them pay attention to the importance of others' existense and others' feelings, so that they learn to respect them. I would never slap a husband, because the raising is supposed to have been done by someone else, and the husband is supposed to be less self-centered, less unable to care for having hurt others than a child. So my gradual way of showing strong reprobation would be in order an argument, then if it doesn't work probably the silent treatment, then leaving the person. But I'm not leaving my kids, the silent treatment is way too harsh for any kid, and so is an argument.
So what I think I'm doing is giving an admittedly disagreeable physical reward for bad behavior, just as I abundantly kiss them as an agreeable physical reward for good behavior. I don't slap to hurt, just to halt them and to make them pay attention that bad behavior leads to bad consequences coming from others, now from their mother but sooner or later from their friends and society at large.
I think what I teach them is that moderately bad behavior results in immediate disagreeable stuff happening, but once they've been slapped, it's over, life goes on. It's like a money fine for a grown up. Worse behaviour results in no slapping but inner mental agony (time-outs) which is way worse, because the waiting and the uncertainty of it makes it so long. It's like going to court for a grown-up - something horrible.
Not hitting them for worse behavior teaches them that I wouldn't hit to hurt them in anger and in frustration, so I bar actual physical violence, as it's not okay, ever.
I'd like An European Viewpoint to tell us how long she's been hitting her kids. (And how old they are.) I ask because it sounds like she's been doing the hitting for a while...and it hasn't worked. Oh, yeah. It might stop some bad behavior immediately...but it certainly doesn't seem to keep it from reoccurring. And shouldn't that be the actual goal?
DeleteHer kids fight with each other in the car. Do they fight physically? If so, whoops. Then hitting them herself is just reinforcing that behavior. My gosh. She could try pulling over to the side of the road or simply slamming the palm of her hand on the dashboard. It sounds like they need to be distracted more than they need to be hit.
They call each other names in front of her. What on earth, in that, requires being hit by her? Try making a joke about it? Come up with obviously silly names for each of them and turn it into a game. Or agree with one about the other, then immediately say "No, I mean agree with him. No, wait! I agree with him!" Get them laughing. Distract them.
Slamming the door? Good grief. This is "intermediate bad behavior"??? Regardless of whether or not you rent, this is minor. So set up a punishment rule. "If you slam the door, then XYZ will happen". I mean, are they seriously standing there repeatedly slamming the door so that hitting them stops it???
Anonymous 8:26 put things beautifully in perspective. Now I think you need to, European.
Stop arguing "I don't know what to do then to express my disaproval in a fast and efficient way - that halts them right there in their tracks." Try to see that, contrary to what you want to believe, you're really arguing "They're annoying me...and I want it to stop NOW, so I'm going to hit them!"
And please stop assuming that what you think you're teaching them is what you're *really* teaching them. Or that what *you* think is the worst punishment actually *is* the worst punishment to each of them. Accept that you're just rationalizing a behavior on your own part that gives you temporary relief...but that, unless the behavior goes away after a few tries, hitting them really isn't very effective.
I, too, am not saying you're a monster. Not even close. But it sure does sound to me like you're rationalizing an awful lot...and maybe it's time to stop and develop some alternative methods. As 8:26 pointed out, shouldn't your kids have at least ONE parent who doesn't either psychologically or physically hurt them?
I would not want another person hitting or spanking my child. I'm a senior citizen and in my day, I recall a wooden paddle (w/holes in it) that the teacher used on some of the boys in my class!
ReplyDeleteAnother punishment I recall involved the chewing of gum in class! (Not allowed!) I was caught w/it and had to draw a circle on the chalk board - put my used gum in the middle of the circle and then stand w/my nose against the gum (in front of the class) for a specific period of time.
How our world has changed!
I'm not a senior citizen yet and in my day, chewing gum in class (kindergarden) resulted in it being put in my hair and me being placed behind the window in the sun, so that it would molt and become impossible to get rid of. My mother had to cut that strand of hair.
DeleteMy parents gave permission for my brothers and me to receive spankings in school in GA. What those 'bruising' spankings taught us was that it was ok for other people to beat us up and that lasted a lifetime. We have been 'abused' by employers, spouses, professors, etc. 'Spankings' can have different effects on different children. It can make them more aggressive, passive, or a combination of both. Children need to be loved, supported and protected until they can fend for themselves. Letting others take advantage or abuse our children teaches them that they are victims and worthy of abuse. Our prisons are filled with the human victims from 'spankings' and 'abuse'. Love your children and let them know you won't let someone else 'beat' them. You are their protector and teacher so be a parent. If there is any punishment to be meted out, you do it...with love and compassion. These children are our future!
ReplyDeleteMy parents gave me once to be spanked by a fat man who had asked for it - it was done in front of them. I'll remember it till death. It was such a betrayal... I don't even remember what I had done.
DeleteI'll never give my blessing to any stranger laying their hands on my kids. And if I could protect them from their father I would.
Why is it anyone thinks they have the right to lay their hands on anyone -- let alone a child? Are we still debating this? Are there really people in this day and age who would trust a stranger to physically abuse their children—in the name of discipline?
ReplyDeleteI remember the kid who always got paddled at my school back in the 60s--she was a shy kid who was socially awkward and a little overweight (my elementary teacher really disliked her for some reason). The kid was always a target. And lets not get into the freaky adults who are into spankings. The mind boggles.
And by the way--if one of these idiots are hitting kids until they see bruising or marks--- any dark skinned black kid will be dead when their punishment is over because discolration will be hard to see. But maybe they know that.
I can't believe a democrat is pushing this. Freak.
I can't tell you how many times I have read comments at tea party and right-wing sites that promote infiltrating the dem party as the best way to win and make changes. That is scary.
DeleteHow about we let bosses swat their employees who are late to work or break some other rule? It would only be fewer than 10 hits, not enough to leave a bruise.
ReplyDeleteNo, we could never do that because adults are allowed to have their dignity and be safe from physical harm from the people who have power over them in the place they have to go everyday. Kids, on the other hand, have no such rights, apparently.
This bill is DOA...
ReplyDeletehttp://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/02/20/kansas-spanking-bill_n_4824228.html
Kansas House Kills Bill That Would Allow Spanking Children To Point Of Bruising
I live in Kansas. I was NOT ok with this. My kids are both A students and have never been spanked, and the teacher who tried to raise a hand to them? .. it wouldn't be pretty.
ReplyDeleteI was spanked a lot as a child. It taught me to distrust, and be sneaky as hell. There are better ways to get your point across. Spanking is lazy parenting.
Just can't believe a Democrat woman was behind this bill and I question her sanity.
ReplyDeleteBut thank goodness the bill was killed. However.
If I didn't know better, from that woman's photo, I'd swear it was Palin in Blackface! It made me do a double-take.
http://www.kslegislature.org/li/b2013_14/members/rep_finney_gail_1/
I'm glad the bill died, but it opened a conversation that needed to be addressed. My parents used to threaten to spank us, but never did. I remember the horror of witnessing a nun in school use a metal edged wooden yardstick to "discipline" one of my fellow students.
ReplyDeleteShe closed both doors, raised the volume on a presentation that was being given, and when some of us attempted to get help/leave, she said "Sit Down! What happens in this room, stays in this room". She left welts and open slashes, dispatched him to the nurse's office, then opened the doors and continued to teach, as if nothing happened.
To my knowledge, the boys parents were perfectly ok with it. Just seeing it caused me severe trauma. To this day I can see the depraved satisfaction the nun's face showed with each hit.
I vowed never to spank nor hit my kids for any reason. Disciplining a child shouldn't involve pain.
Good lord almighty! That woman is on the juvenile justice committee! This is a very scary situation. I think Kansans need to rethink their elected officials, even Democrats. How perfectly awful for kids in Kansas.
ReplyDelete