And his response was "That's is a very good question. Why don't you explain to me the formula by which you know there is no Zeus, no Odin, no Ra, and I will use that to determine the nonexistence of the Christian God as well."
Atheists don't have the burden of proof, we just have a reasonable expectation that somebody trying to prove something extraordinary would have extraordinary evidence to support it.
Amen
ReplyDeleteAt church on Sunday, our retired pastor's wife (she is 84 and sharp as a tack!) said she had been reading in TiME about the rise of atheism, and that Houston was one of the cities seeing a rise. My son and his wife are there, so she was concerned. I wanted to get into a discussion with her, but it wasn't the time or place. She seemed very worried that my son might do to the dark side. I still believe, for now, but I tell you, when I see what "Christians" are doing to this country and the world, I am not so certain that I want to remain one.
ReplyDeleteJust do your questioning in an open and honest fashion. You'll be fine, 5:10.
DeleteAt the very least you may realize you do not wish to be associated with so many hypocrites and simply hold your own faith. Things will simply flow from there, regardless of the direction you take. It's the JOURNEY that needs to be taken.
Personally, I try to live by five words: Love, Understanding, Compassion, Forgiveness and Tolerance. I find I need no god to believe in them.
Sigh. These attempts to rationalize the debunking of man-made fairytales as being equivalent to knowing whether or not some greater being purposely set the big bang into motion has become tedious. SO basically Gryph, what you're saying is, "Atheist" means that you don't believe in the CHRISTIAN definition of God. Good for you, I agree. But understand that to apply "the formula by which you know there is no Zeus" means you are simply disputing MAN-MADE definitions of "God" as obviously fraudulent and then feeling quite smug that you've figured out the universe. That's where we diverge.
ReplyDeleteYou're a smart person, why can't you see how that is every bit as feeble minded, illogical and intellectually lazy as "proving" Noah's flood by pointing at rain?
Just as arrogant and small minded, just as much dragging God (if indeed there is one) down to OUR level as any evangelical. Saying God doesn't exist because the Bible is stupid is just the mirror image of saying He does exist because the Bible is perfect. I don't understand why an intelligent, free-thinking individual brings the Bible into the discussion at all. Why empower man-made fiction to define and limit the scope and possible outcomes of such a huge question?
The only rational answer to the question is to admit that you don't know the answer. Raising any religion to "the other possible option" status is empowering them far beyond what they deserve. Why do you do that? Until science proves or disproves what was behind what set the big bang in motion, the possibilities are limitless. Imposing your own sense of certainty where there is none, is just ignorant superstition.
DeleteI'll have to read that again...
I believe in some advanced higher power that certain people who have the evidence do not want us to know about.
DeleteI believe human brains have capability for higher powers which have been squashed over the millenia, thus making us easier to "control".
I also think we are perhaps part of a giant live action board game for these higher powers. I mean, HOW many times can we keep making the same mistakes over and over again until we evolve????
Maybe instead of reincarnation, if we are able to figure things out in this world, we go to a more advanced version of the board game the next time.
One thing, Boscoe. Did it not occur to you he may have been speaking to a Christian when he said that? Or that when speaking of the christian god he was also speaking of the hebrew god? Or that according to all middle eastern monotheistic religions there is only ONE god?
DeleteOr that the use of the word god is only to enable those who DO believe to understand the question?
Or even that it wasn't Gryphen who participated in the conversation, merely saw that person respond.
if you were any follower of IM, you would know that, fairly consistently, Jesse is an equal opportunity mocker. He really isn't asking for anything more than a lot of the rest of us atheists: an explanation (with proof) of why believers DO believe.
And the bible is brought into such conversations because the BELIEVERS bring it in. Or the Qur'an. Or the Talmud or Torah. Or....
Boscoe, as a rather ancient human who still has an inquisitive mind, I agree wholeheartedly with the last paragraph of your post.
DeleteThough I am looking forward to reading or hearing about new scientific discoveries that may occur in what is left of my time, I am quite content to Not Know and just marvel at the interconnected of the Universe which rules all...
The Christians I know would say the history of civilization proves Ra, Zeus, etc. were false, powerless gods. They'd turn your challenge into an evangelistic opportunity, inviting you to test the god of the bible through repentance and faith, resulting in experiential affirmation. If you don't experience God's existence, if he doesn't give you new or increased peace and joy, they'd say your repentance and/or faith was lacking and salvation didn't 'take'. It's a no win, vicious circle. Dealing with charismatics who practice speaking in tongues takes the question to a seemingly impossible level.
ReplyDeleteThere are ways to break the faith bubble but only with people who are capable of seeing and acknowledging reality. An atheist who is loving, kind, patient, and happy poses a significant problem to the faith of my Christian friends and family.
Being a loving, kind, happy atheist doesn't pose a problem to those of faith. Their argument will always revert to what happens to the soul once the body is done. The whole point of faith-based religion is believing that 'life' as we know it is simply preparation for what happens next. And ironically, not being able to prove the afterlife doesn't exist only shores up the followers belief that it does - because - they have faith :)
Delete-Oz
"Being a loving, kind, happy atheist doesn't pose a problem to those of faith."
DeleteHhhmmm. If that is the case, why does almost every believer of any monotheistic religion I have EVER met begin to scream and yell at me I am going to hell?
Atheists have been murdered all through time. Simply for SAYING they don't believe. And it is still happening in some places.
YOU may believe that line, but the believers (generally) don't seem to agree with you. To them, we ARE a threat!
Oz - I agree that getting to heaven is the bottom line for Christians. My point may not apply to Catholics and other denominations with whom I have little experience. I was thinking about my experience with fundamentalists/evangelicals whose emphasis was on the evidence that one had been saved and justification for faith they would go to heaven--the fruits of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23.)
DeleteMatthew 7:16-20: You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? 17"So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. 18"A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. (Also Matthew 12:35, Luke 6:43)
Ok Oz, then have them explain how we atheists are "bad fruit" that comes from "bad trees" or that we are thistles.
DeleteIt still boils down to the fact they cannot PROVE a thing. At least not in a way that is repeatable and verifiable - without using the bible or any religious material, as you just did.
Besides, some thistles are quite good eating and are cultivated heavily.
As for the fundamentalist/evangelicals, they don't accept ANY way to heaven except the one THEY describe.
In any debate with a person of faith their last defense will always be - 'well then you're going to Hell' - and that was my point. - that it doesn't matter if one is seen as a loving, happy atheist or not - the religious concern lies only in that one is an atheist - period. Because being an atheist means you aren't 'properly' using this life to prepare for the next - which is what all the begetting and fruit-bearing in the bible is about.
DeleteI'm not an atheist. I just don't believe in god(s).
-Oz
As far as their fallback stance is concerned, you couldn't be more accurate. However, having said that, I have to say that it does NOT alter in any way what Gryphen posted above.
DeleteI use something like it whenever I faced with idiots who refuse to THINK and walk away laughing when they try that stance. I also tell them the very thought of spending eternity on my knees worshipping ANY god is anathema to my mind!
BTW, I love your non-sequitur.
I'm definitely framing that and putting it on my door. This is exactly how I've felt since becoming a non believer.
ReplyDeleteMy elderly mother lives with us, and the "Eucharistic Minister" the RCC church sends has these strange ideas bouncing around her skull and off her tongue because she can't understand how anyone can not believe in God. She prattles on and on over cake and coffee (in MY house) and says things I'd never think of saying. They'll be in the living room, and she just gets up, finds me and says "Come join us, maybe you'll be inspired....." "No, Thank You".
"Oh, just think, what if YOU"RE wrong...... end up in hell"
"I DO think, thanks for your concern, but what part of "No, Thank You" don't you get?
Having this on my front door or foyer may make my life a bit easier. I only invite her as a favor for my mom.
That last paragraph says it all and I will use it A LOT going forward - Brilliant - "Atheists don't have the burden of proof, we just have a reasonable expectation that somebody trying to prove something extraordinary would have extraordinary evidence to support it."
ReplyDeleteGOD IS REAL, HE CREATED ALL THINGS.Your SOUL WASN'T CREATED BY MAM.
ReplyDelete