| Mayor Jim Fouts |
Courtesy of Chron:
The American Civil Liberties Union in Michigan and two other groups filed a federal lawsuit Wednesday seeking an injunction against a Michigan city's ban on an atheist booth in a municipal building.
The groups said the Detroit suburb of Warren lets a church group run a "prayer station," distribute religious materials, discuss religious beliefs and pray with visitors in a City Hall atrium but refuses to let atheist Douglas Marshall use the same space.
Americans United for Separation of Church and State and the Freedom from Religion Foundation also are part of the lawsuit in U.S. District Court that says Marshall's request in April to install a "reason station" was rejected by Mayor Jim Fouts.
"Once the government opens public space for use by private groups, it cannot pick and choose who can use the space based on the content of their message or whether public officials agree with that message," said Dan Korobkin, ACLU of Michigan deputy legal director, adding "The city cannot allow speech supportive of religion and reject speech supportive of atheism."
I think Douglas Marshall has a valid point.
If you allow one group to have a special area in a government building then it seems reasonable to allow others in as well. And not just Atheists either, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Scientologists, etc., should have the same exact access and place of prominence provided to them.
Sadly the mayor of Warren, does not quite see it that way.
This was what he told the AP:
"The city has certain values that I don't believe are in general agreement with having an atheist station, nor in general agreement with having a Nazi station or Ku Klux Klan station," Fouts said. "I cannot accept or will not allow a group that is disparaging of another group to have a station here."
Now why do these idiots always think that THEIR values reflect the values or beliefs of everybody in their communities?
And conflating Atheists with the KKK or the Nazis demonstrates a complete lack of knowledge about history, and a deeply intolerant nature.
As far as I know most Atheist organizations are not about hate, they are about knowledge.
And it looks like this guy could stand to be exposed to some.
What an ignorant mayor. I think he needs to be a little more aware of others beliefs instead of making such a stupid decision. The only groups who are consistently disparaging of other groups are religious organizations. All the atheists I know are very thoughtful and caring people.
ReplyDeleteHe needs to read the US Constitution for starters. Or perhaps someone, like the City Attorney, should read it to him (and then explain that little bit about the separation of church and state). One of the reasons for the separation was to keep one brand of religion (or non-religion) from attacking another under the guise of official permission. (There had been a little too much of that in Europe and Britain for a couple hundred years before the Constitution was written.)
DeleteBeaglemom
Fouts said. "I cannot accept or will not allow a group that is disparaging of another group to have a station here."
ReplyDelete- - -
So that means, Mr. Fouts, that you will also not allow the church group to have a station there, right?
WHAT?!?!? The church group can stay?!?!?
What kind of double standard monkey business is that !!!!
I cannot accept or will not allow a group that is disparaging of another group to have a station here." Exactly, Mr.Mayor. And what do you think ti is that you Christian tabs sitters are doing? Embracing all human beings as equal? Or are they disparaging blacks, gays, women, and who knows who all? This is wrong...so very wrong.
ReplyDeleteActually, he kinda sorta has a point if you consider it from a perception that Atheists, in general, do not have their own belief system, they simply have a reaction against someone else's belief system.
ReplyDeleteI'm not saying I disagree with Atheism, but I am saying that if this guy's standard for use of the public space is that a group cannot be disparaging another group, then what's an Atheist going to talk about? Again, I'm not saying he's right or his point of view is valid, I'm just playing devil's advocate here and saying I can understand that his point, arguably, may not be completely off the rails.
But, by the same token, if the Christian group talks against Gay rights, then they also should be barred from the building for exactly the same reason.
Clearly the comparison with KKK/Nazis is idiotic hyperbole, but it has a nugget of sense in there if you look at it from the perception that it would be an easy leap of logic for a Christian to believe that like the KKK hates blacks and Nazis hate Jews, Atheists hate Christians.
Obviously, the Atheists should be allowed the same access as the Christians, I'm just saying I do think there kind of IS an argument buried in there somewhere depending on how you perceive Atheists and what their approach to communicating their message would be.
For example, if they just put up a display to educate about scientific advancements and critical thinking, that's one thing. If they put up banners that say "YOU ARE A MORON IF YOU BELIEVE IN MAGICAL ABUSIVE SKY DAD" then, you know, not so okay.
I'm not sure what you might be trying to say with your rambling statement here, but it seems to me two things are very obvious. Atheists (for the most part) DO NOT react AGAINST someone else's belief system(s) until they are reacted to negatively - such as this situation.
DeleteSecond, this entire situation is a violation of the Constitution since it allows one set of people to perform, and not another. That's all the suit is about. This idiot needs to learn that lesson. Goosey Goosey Gander.
And as far as I am concerned, even though it is a despicable group, even the KKK has the right to have a booth - as long as they are reasonable in their actions there.
You appear to have accepted the religious people's idea that atheists are a threat and are out to destroy. Not true.
The true test of one's belief in our Constitution is one's decision on whether or not to defend ANOTHER'S point of view or opinion - regardless of him much you might hate it.
As to your last paragraph, how about when THEY say "YOU ARE A MORON IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE IN MAGICAL ABUSIVE SKY DAD" - which they do ALL the time!
You really don't understand atheists at all. Who says we don't have a belief system? Or that our mission is to tear at people who do? My beliefs are generally based on doing right for people in the belief that listening, counseling, supporting are themselves non-deist behaviors humans and animals engage in with members of the their "pack" or other packs. Dogs are loving and loyal to humans. Is that "GOD" trait or a mammalian one. You seem to think we are trying to communicate a message. My understanding of this booth is it's presence would be there to provide information, support and ideas. Why does it have to be a religious message? Can Christians do things for other people without invoking their God instead of just doing it because they respect their fellow travelers on this planet? Apparently not. As to the banner you suggest we'd make about abusive sky dad you are simply projecting the Christians efforts to call out atheists and agnostics for not believing in your God.
DeleteYou are absolutely right...IF you assume, incorrectly, that morality must come from a formal religion.
DeleteA human being does not need a thousand year old book written by people who believed that the earth was flat to tell them what is right and wrong. We are all perfectly capable of determining what behavior is just, socially acceptable, and moral without someone dressed in a robe and standing on a platform in a fancy building telling us what to do.
In fact, I was raised Catholic, and a lot of the behaviors and beliefs I was taught as a child are unquestionably IMmoral.
We are ALL spiritual beings walking our own path on this earth. Period. Do good to your fellow man and stop this stupid argument.
DeleteBut this really shouldn't be about atheists or non-atheists. It's a basic fact that public buildings in the US cannot have "prayer stations," whether Christian, zombie or anything else. A truly religious person can pray silently anywhere and anytime. But a "Christian prayer station" or an "atheist non-prayer station" in the local city hall is just unconstitutional and ludicrous?
DeleteBeaglemom
Those who believe in the supernatural often were brainwashed from childhood and cannot discard what they were conditioned to believe. They do not apply critical thinking to 'get out of the box' (because the box is emotional) in this arena even if they otherwise have great critical thinking skills (are intelligent) and can solve complex problems in the real world. They are stuck in a world of fantasy because they fear finiteness. It is all about ego.
ReplyDeleteIn this case it doesn't matter WHAT the christian belief is nor is it important how they acquired their beliefs. This is a Constitutional question. Period.
DeleteNo, I don't feel any sympathy for this mayor. First of all, everyone knows that there is separation of church and state in this country. In my generation, most of us were raised with some sort of religious background and we were also taught what the Constitution says. And we have understood the difference between church and state. If someone wants to pray, they should go to church or sit on a park bench and pray in silence. This guy is stark-raving stupid.
DeleteBeaglemom
His problem is that the Nazis and the KKK would claim to be Christian. So there's that.
ReplyDeleteThey did and the do.
DeleteSorry. That should THEY do.
DeleteThat mayor is sure one uptight-looking guy.
ReplyDeleteI wonder what grim religion he practices.
Of course he "believes" we're a "Christian" nation, and we have the military power to prove it. What a biblethumping moron. No one's "rights" trump anyone else's, that's what makes America what it is.
ReplyDeleteHope they get their reason booth, muslim booth, sikh booth, scientology etc etc etc.
Do they have anything more "pressing" going on in town than to make a big deal out of religions?
Now I know why my sister chose that city...........
ReplyDeleteWhy ever would a city hall, anywhere in the US, need a "prayer station" of any denomination? I'm from Michigan and, fortunately, I've never heard of this. Warren is an odd town but it didn't used to be this stupid. Setting this thing up was a lawsuit waiting to happen.
ReplyDeleteBeaglemom