Friday, November 28, 2014

Josh Marshall of Talking Points Memo sums up why he finds it so hard to believe Darren Wilson's account of the shooting of Michael Brown.

Michael Brown's family at Thanksgiving dinner.
I just read Josh Marshall's editorial on the the Grand Jury decision and was struck by how closely his points mirrored my own.

Here are the main points I want to share courtesy of TPM:  

I'm going to set aside all the questions about just how far apart Wilson and Brown were when the fatal shooting occurred, the angle of Brown's body, whether his hands were up. Lots of people have parsed the evidence on that a lot more closely. Those points are technical and accounts are conflicting. 

It's Wilson's description of how the incident began that just does not ring true. To believe Wilson, you have to believe that Brown, an 18 year old, is stopped by a police officer on a street in broad daylight. The police officer is armed. He's in an SUV. And Brown's immediate reaction is to begun screaming and cursing him, physically attacking him and before long literally daring him to shoot him. 

Here's how Wilson's account unfolds: Wilson passes Brown and his friend Dorian Johnson and tells them to stop walking in the middle of the street. The two friends basically blow Wilson off at first and then when Wilson tells them again, Brown yells "fuck what you have to say." When Brown and Johnson ignore Wilson's request, he backs up his vehicle and turns to the left, slightly cutting them off. As Wilson begins to get out of his car, Brown says "What the fuck are you going to do about it" and slams the door shut on him. 

After this, Brown and Wilson scuffle with Brown leaning into the car striking Wilson and Wilson, still seated, defending himself. Wilson describes thinking through how to escape from Brown or which weapon to use against him before finally pulling his gun and saying "get back or I'm going to shoot you." 

At this point, Brown grabs Wilson's gun and says "you are too much of a pussy to shoot me." 

They scuffle. A shot goes off but neither is injured. Brown comes at Wilson again - another scuffle and another shot which apparently hits Brown in the finger. Brown runs off. It's after this that the fatal shooting takes place, with the various questions about how it happened. 

We all have our intuitive, experience-based sense of what's credible and what's not. I doubt Michael Brown was going to physically assault an armed police officer in broad daylight, sitting in his SUV, without any apparent provocation or mutually escalation. But what really puts it over the edge are Brown's alleged statements, as recounted by Wilson. None of them ring true from what we know about Brown.

After that Marshall goes on to describe the famous Michael Brown robbery of the convenience store, and the fact that he roughed up a clerk, which in the minds of many was all they had to see to write Brown off as deserving of his fate that day.

I know this because the video was exactly the reason that my brother decided to argue with me during OUR Thanksgiving dinner as to why Michael Brown deserved to be shot.

To our credit we remained fairly calm, but my brother was completely convinced that Brown "was looking for trouble" that day. And his theory was based solely on the video of Brown manhandling that much smaller convenience store clerk.

What I suggested to my brother was that he ignore that footage as it did not factor into Wilson's decision to shoot Brown. Even if Wilson knew of the robbery, which is still somewhat debatable, he certainly had not seen the footage and would have no visual in his head of how Brown bullied that clerk into letting him walk away with those cigarillos.

Instead I asked my brother if he thought that shooting to death an unarmed man for walking down the street seemed reasonable. At that my brother asked how the officer would know he was unarmed, and I said because when they were supposedly grappling for the officer's gun (Darren Wilson's version of events) Brown did not pull a piece of his own once Wilson shot at him.

My brother also seemed blissfully unaware that Brown had been shot at least six times, twice in the head. (My brother only knew of two shots even though he said that he had watched hours of footage on TV.)

One of my brother's arguments was that Wilson had no choice as Brown was much bigger. In response I reminded him that they were of almost equal height (Brown's 6 ft 5, to Wilson's 6 ft 4.)

"But he charged him," my brother said. I mentioned that such a claim was not consistent through all of the witness testimony, and that several had said that Brown was staggering toward him, NOT rushing him.

This went back and forth a few times, with me eventually informing my brother that how the Grand Jury decided on the indictment was also essentially unheard of and that it was also cause for concern by those demanding justice. 

My brother's a good guy, he really is. However his responses were a real education to me as to how people who were only minimally paying attention could come away firmly convinced of something that was not backed up by the facts.

By the way he got ALL of his information from CNN.

And yes we had a really nice dinner and plenty of reasonable conversation after that exchange.

55 comments:

  1. Anonymous4:57 PM

    You know something is wrong when even freakin' SCALIA thinks the grand jury screwed it up.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Anonymous10:32 AM

      Scalia has not commented on Ferguson. If you are gleaning that from the alternet headline- that is a misleading bullshit headline. Scalia has said nothing about this case.

      Delete
  2. If any of you have seen those photographs of Wilsons' injuries, take a closer look and ask yourselves why is the red mark on the right (passenger) side of his face.
    I had seen those pictures more than once and never thought about it before.

    ReplyDelete
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    1. Anonymous5:56 PM

      Mike Brown was a contortionist?

      Mike Brown was Gumby?

      Mike Brown was Stretch Armstrong?

      Obviously, I got nuttin'! But it is impossible for me to imagine how the far side of his face got reddened when the close to Mike Brown side seems just his normal ruddy color. I smell something rotten in Ferguson. Justice has definitely not yet been served.

      JJ

      Delete
    2. Anonymous6:33 PM

      How about the "cut" on his chin? It doesn't even come close to being a miniscule example of a shaving nick. I attribute most of the red spots on his face to a case of rosacea, especially since his ears are also a lovely flaming rose shade.

      Delete
    3. Anonymous9:41 PM

      Oh it is too bad all you 'experts' weren't called to save the day........... Larf.

      Delete
  3. Anonymous5:37 PM

    I have a family member just like you, knows everything, and can't be shutup. I bet dinners at your house are just a barrel of laughs.

    ReplyDelete
  4. Wilson should not have been anywhere near the grand juries - grand juries do NOT hear from the "to be" accused. They hear the evidence the prosecutor presents to get an indictment. This was no prosecutor talking to the grand jury. He was a defense attorney. He should be prosecuted for perverting the course of justice

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  5. Anonymous6:29 PM

    5:46 i agree the prosecutor there is just something not right there. I dont know how i know but inside it did not feel right at all. I always say this knowing is the higher being.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Ailsa7:00 PM

      The clearest article about the subversion of the Grand Jury system is here -

      http://www.politicususa.com/2014/11/28/st-louis-grand-jury-indicted-tried-convicted-unarmed-murder-victim-michael-brown.html

      Delete
    2. Anonymous9:29 PM

      Alisa.... political and social blogs write their own truths for the gullible.

      Let that idea settle in for a while.

      Delete
    3. Anonymous5:29 AM

      I understand why you have no friends, 9:29. If your mindless, repetitive blog comments are this annoying and trite, I can only imagine what you're like in person.

      Delete
    4. Ailsa5:53 AM

      Anonymous 9:29 PM

      As a retired lawyer, I will say it again: "That is the clearest article about the subversion of the Grand Jury system."

      Delete
    5. Anonymous4:07 PM

      Well Ailsa, I'm smart enough never to believe a lawyer. Most lawyers that I know I consider to be idiots, on top of being liars. If you are also a retired lawyer you also know that this didn't have to go to a grand jury at all, the prosecutor could have (and should have) simply declined to press charges based on all the evidence at hand.

      Just to be clear again- "I'm a retired lawyer" garbage actually makes you nobody of any importance to listen to.

      Delete
  6. Anonymous6:58 PM

    Mexico and canada build your toy inventory and protesters go buy from mexico and canadian border towns. I dont think canada will do this. Just thinking. I am sad about a young man that gunned down and no trial. No hearing no questioning.

    ReplyDelete
  7. Anonymous7:13 PM

    The whole time I'm reading this post I'm thinking Gryph has a brother?

    ReplyDelete
  8. Anonymous7:17 PM

    Officer Wilson was back at the police station when he bagged his own gun into an evidence bag. Yep, something doesn't just don't feel right about a lot of what happened that day.

    ReplyDelete
  9. Anonymous7:47 PM

    I haven't really heard people say he DESERVED to be killed/shot. But people are so quick to condemn officers, people whose jobs are some of the most dangerous. People cops tun up on could be nuts. You never know who you're gonna meet and have to draw a gun on as defense.

    Im not sure what i believe about FErguson, an event I did not witness.

    I do know from personal experience as a juror who's listened to witnesses describe events of a [gang] party turned multi murder that witnesses lie like they breathe to save their asses or a friend.

    I've heard one man say, verbatim, "I don't know how I even got at the house. I was at church earlier that day and ended up at the party."

    This was in a section of town that is known for daily shootings, gang related activity, murders, and a place you don't walk without fear.

    I will always have sympathy for cops. People are straight nuts.

    I know bloggers aren't killers, but just look at all the idle people who stalk the internet waiting to pounce on a politician with whom they disagree. Look at all the liars out there who slander public figures for no reason.

    Nuts, humanity.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Anonymous8:41 PM

      So transparent. Look in the mirror, weirdo.

      Delete
    2. Anonymous10:11 PM

      As if an emotionally-stunted person like you would ever make it through voir dire.

      Yes, we know you are the same overly-dramatic fairytale troll who has haunted this blog for YEARS.

      Grow up, get some help, get a job, and move out of your parents' house.

      Delete
    3. Anonymous10:31 PM

      LOL You're getting a little better at this.

      Delete
    4. "I haven't really heard people say he DESERVED to be killed/shot."
      -----------------------------------
      Then you haven't been paying attention. Your comment is a load of self-serving bs, especially as you segued from the death of an 18 year old to sniveling about bloggers.

      Delete
    5. Anonymous4:09 PM

      Shut up Nefer.

      Delete
  10. Anonymous7:51 PM

    People are saying Brown was unarmed. But honestly, despite him possibly reaching for Wilson's gun (a huge nono if true and something that WOULD result in it being drawn on him), is there any evidence Wilson KNEW he was unarmed?

    I know people said he surrendered, but is that conclusive?

    I'm not sure.

    People are right, even trained cops become victims of adrenaline. And a cop whos never had to use his gun is interesting.

    ReplyDelete
  11. Anonymous7:56 PM

    Do you remember that cop bust in Alaska where the two men were talking to that chick about a call they received related to pot? This was last year I think.

    It was fine until the girl reached behind the cop for the door and that cop thought she was reaching to him (or his weapon belt) and he floored her - and not even that harshly. From then on the girl went hysterical, screaming.

    Often a person lands in trouble due to their REACTIONS to law enforcement. If a cop receives a concern call they have to report it if it doesn't sound like it's coming from the loony bin and it's not a hate call about a celeb the caller irrationally hates.

    but that girl's reaction painted her as mental. I know she's suing the two cops and possible something else, but I don't think itll go anywhere. Not when HER friend filmed her acting like an asshole and fighting the cops when they were trying to put her in the car.

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  12. Anonymous8:55 PM

    When MB ran away from Wilson in the SUV, the Threat was gone. Wilson then became the aggressor when he went after MB with weapon drawn. PERIOD.
    VernD

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Anonymous9:26 PM

      It is the job of police to subdue and arrest people who are suspected of felonies dumbass, like the 'suspected' felony assault of a police officer.

      Delete
    2. Anonymous11:36 AM

      9:26 PM You are the dumbassed Cop lover with no logic.

      Delete
  13. Anonymous9:34 PM

    Gryph it is your blog, but you are starting to really veer off into full-of-shitville.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Anonymous6:10 AM

      Then go away. Visit scarah then.

      Delete
    2. Anonymous11:38 AM

      @9:34 PM There was no SHIT here until you arrived, Punk. Fuck Off, Troll.

      Delete
  14. Anonymous9:54 PM

    "What I suggested to my brother was that he ignore that footage as it did not factor into Wilson's decision to shoot Brown"....

    So now you are going to selectively pick and choose what to use to set up your narrative Gryphen?

    Don't fool yourself Gryphen. Brown foolishly attacked a cop and he ended up getting shot. No need to overcomplicate it. He assaulted the storeowner (yes it is true) moments before, and has an arrest record for same types of previous offenses (yes that is also true). Open your eyes.

    ReplyDelete
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    1. Anonymous6:09 AM

      Well, why dont you justify your information. Go to ferguson in black makeup looking like a young man and just casually cruise around walk across the street and you will get your answer. I bet you will immediately say you are white.

      Delete
    2. Anonymous6:49 AM

      Wtf are you talking about 6:09? Nonsensical post.

      Delete
  15. Anonymous2:29 AM

    Reminds me of this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQIPmXmcQPE

    <3 Newsroom!

    ReplyDelete
  16. Anonymous3:25 AM

    My eyes are open, wide open.

    The evidence presented does not match the story given by the Ferguson Police Department. That is an issue

    The Grand Jury proceedings were highly unusual - the person who should have recused themselves didn't - that is an issue

    Whenever the story doesn't add up I always go back to the evidence - what does it tell us? I open my mind so I'm not working towards a conclusion I want - I let the facts tell the story. The facts in this case have only just begun to talk to those who are listening.

    On a personal level - Mr Wilson called Mr Brown an it. Fact - it's in the record. The emotion that wells within me is not pleasant. It is the culmination of years of abuse, years of bullying, years of putting up with less than because I am Other. No one on this freaking planet is an it, including the odious person of Mr Wilson. Calling another human IT lets me know more about the issuer than they'd like.

    Truth will out, especially with so many people watching. I have faith.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Anonymous6:54 AM

      The truth is out 3:25. You just don't want to see it.

      Brown sealed his own fate. You don't go assaulting cops and reaching for their weapons. It is idiotic and it will not end well for you. Wilson is not required to have any extra empathy for doing his job, especially when the perp is threatening his safety or life. Grow up kiddo.

      Delete
    2. Anonymous11:28 AM

      6:54 AM If you believe Wilson over all of the independent witnesses, you are as stupid as our resident ;grow up' stalker troll, kiddo.

      Delete
  17. London Bridges3:35 AM

    if brown starting reaching into cop car, wouldn't your first instinct be to roll up the window? Game ended, unless you were lookin' for trouble.

    the reality is that what may or may not have happened in wilson's cop car was irrelevant to what happened.

    Most important thing is wilson never was requiredby the pd to make a statement AT ALL immediately after he killed brown. he had months to make up his little fantasy statement he gave to grand jury.

    ReplyDelete
  18. Anonymous6:15 AM

    Michael Brown was big. Yet, Officer Wilson chose to initiate contact with Brown while sitting in his police car through an open window without waiting for the backup officer to arrive. There is no rational explanation for that choice. And therefore I think much of what Officer Wilson has to say about the events that followed is simply trying to rationalize blunder after blunder on his part.

    Only 4 people on the grand jury were needed to avoid a trial. Quite likely at least those 4 were very willing to believe Wilson. It was an easy sell. Wilson's story didn't have to make sense.

    ReplyDelete
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    1. Anonymous6:58 AM

      You make some pretty big leaps in reality.

      So in your fantasy world... it is Wilsons fault that Brown assaulted Wilson and punched him while he was in his car.... that is Wilsons fault? Really? You don't see the fault in your logic?

      Delete
    2. Anonymous7:20 AM

      Michael Brown was big. Yet, Officer Wilson chose to initiate contact with Brown while sitting in his police car through an open window without waiting for the backup officer to arrive.

      No fantasy in those sentences.

      Only 4 people on the grand jury were needed to avoid a trial.

      No fantasy in that.

      No fault in logic. No fantasy. Facts are facts.



      Delete
    3. Anonymous9:14 AM

      Yes, you are living in fantasy land.

      Initiate contact thru a window? Brown assaulted the cop thru his window.... that is Wilson's fault? You're an idiot.

      Delete
    4. Anonymous9:37 AM

      @9:14

      In what way have you established that you are not an idiot?

      Delete
    5. Anonymous10:24 AM

      You're frustrated 9:37. It is because there is no rational way for you to win an arguement that somehow a cop is at fault, because a criminal attacked him thru the window of his car.

      Further, the prosecutor did not even have to put this in front of a grand jury, he could have simply declined to press charges simply based on the evidence.

      You don't know how the grand jury voted, as that is a secret. If it had actually gone to trial, it would require an almost impossible unanimous vote to convict. Justice was done and served. It does not have to satisfy your prejudices.

      Delete
    6. Anonymous11:34 AM

      10:24 AM Obviously you don't believe that Cops tell lies to save their asses. I know from experience that many Cops LIE under oath. You right wingers don't give any credence to ALL of the other witnesses, including the construction worker who was taped yelling, "He had his hands up, why did you shoot him." But Officer Wilson was the ONLY one telling the truth at the scene? Get real.

      Delete
    7. Anonymous12:10 PM

      @10:24

      "You don't know how the grand jury voted, as that is a secret."

      You can not be this stupid. Of course, we know that a minimum of 4 people on the grand jury did not want an indictment. That is the number of grand jurors (in Missouri) required to vote no to avoid an indictment. That is not secret.

      "If it had actually gone to trial..." Of course, no one knows what the outcome would have been if Officer Wilson had been indicted for whatever charge that the grand jury might have picked. Your opinion about a possible outcome is just as worthless as mine.

      Delete
    8. Anonymous2:39 PM

      11:34 what in the world makes you think I am a right winger, and everyone knows cops lie... whats your point stupid?

      Delete
    9. Anonymous2:43 PM

      12:10 it also might have been unanimous to not indict right? You are dumb. Dumb dumb dumb. What exactly is your point? You just want to whine all day long because justice was served correctly and you can't accept it. If Michael Brown had any sense, he would still be alive. This is 100% his fault.

      Delete
    10. Anonymous3:15 PM

      My point is:

      Michael Brown was big. Yet, Officer Wilson chose to initiate contact with Brown while sitting in his police car through an open window without waiting for the backup officer to arrive. There is no rational explanation for that choice. And therefore I think much of what Officer Wilson has to say about the events that followed is simply trying to rationalize blunder after blunder on his part.

      Only 4 people on the grand jury were needed to avoid a trial. Quite likely at least those 4 were very willing to believe Wilson. It was an easy sell. Wilson's story didn't have to make sense.

      Delete
    11. Anonymous5:45 PM

      Turnoff the white guilt and try not to be so clueless.

      The guy attacked a cop. You never attack a cop, it doesn't matter how close or far away he parked his car... that is not a license to... wait for it... attack a cop. The cop did his job, Mike Brown decided to be a criminal that day, and his own actions got him killed.

      Delete
    12. Anonymous6:05 PM

      @5:45

      In what way have you established that you are not clueless?

      Delete
  19. Anonymous11:03 AM

    I had a similar special someone this Thanksgiving who argued (well, discussed) the same exact points G's brother did.

    His "Point-Outs" were:
    1) MB charged at Officer Wilson
    2) "the forensics match Wilson's story"
    3) MB robbed the store and shoved the store owner

    I countered with, starting with number three, Wilson did not know, could not have known, for sure, that the guy he stopped in the street (Brown), was the guy at the store stealing/shoving incident.

    Number One does not match any of the other witness testimony (that I'm aware of), and Number Two might be relevant if we had had Wilson's whole story within 24-48 hours of when it took place, but we only got it .... just now, basically. And what about that released Police Report that had next to no info on it? (I followed the Trayvon Martin case and the Sanford police released the actual witness testimony that they had recorded that night (witness written descriptions) and then audio of recorded depositions later. Is same available in this case?)

    My point is, Wilson had the means and the time to craft a story that would fit the forensics. The other witnesses did not.

    If I were to believe someone's account, it would be the accounts of the people who recorded their recollections right away, as soon as possible after witnessing it (with the understand that, yes, a person can alter their account later if the remember something else and wish to have it entered on record.)

    The discussion ended with, "So, do you think the officer was lying?" and I said "Yes".

    If the Grand Jury is told the other witnesses are not credible, and only Wilson's testimony is, gosh, whatever conclusion will they reach?

    Marvin M

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  20. Do you remember hearing early on that Wilson was a heroic officer who had recently received a commendation? Look up that info & you will find that he was commended for grabbing and holding on to a suspect through his car window while he waited for backup to arrive. Sound familiar?
    Also, earliest police comments said that Wilson was not aware of the possible robbery. Then they changed their story.

    ReplyDelete
  21. Anonymous3:28 PM

    O well, Live a thug, die a thug I guess. He had no reason for assaulting a police office. Y'all ever thing maybe his head was a little big because he was with one of his homies and he just got away with strong arm robbery at store!
    1 cop Vs 2 Thugs was going threw the mind of the cop.

    O and lets not forget that some people recorded the incident on there cell phones. And those people turned them in to the police. So what the officer said must of been true.
    Like I said, Live a thug, Die a thug!

    ReplyDelete

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