In pain shall you bring forth children, woman, and you shall turn to your husband and he shall rule over you. And do you not know that you are Eve? God’s sentence hangs still over all your sex and His punishment weighs down upon you. You are the devil’s gateway; you are she who first violated the forbidden tree and broke the law of God. It was you who coaxed your way around him whom the devil had not the force to attack. With what ease you shattered that image of God: Man! Because of the death you merited, even the Son of God had to die… Woman, you are the gate to hell. —Tertullian, the “father of Latin Christianity” (c160-225)
Woman is a temple built over a sewer. —Tertullian
The word and works of God is quite clear, that women were made either to be wives or prostitutes. —Martin Luther, Reformer (1483-1546)
Even as the church must fear Christ Jesus, so must the wives also fear their husbands. And this inward fear must be shewed by an outward meekness and lowliness in her speeches and carriage to her husband….For if there be not fear and reverence in the inferior, there can be no sound nor constant honor yielded to the superior. —John Dod, A Plaine and Familiar Exposition of the Ten Commandements, Puritan guidebook first published in 1603
The second duty of the wife is constant obedience and subjection. —John Dod
The feminist agenda is not about equal rights for women. It is about a socialist, anti-family political movement that encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism and become lesbians. —Pat Robertson, Southern Baptist leader (1930–)
The Holiness of God is not evidenced in women when they are brash, brassy, boisterous, brazen, head-strong, strong-willed, loud-mouthed, overly-talkative, having to have the last word, challenging, controlling, manipulative, critical, conceited, arrogant, aggressive, assertive, strident, interruptive, undisciplined, insubordinate, disruptive, dominating, domineering, or clamoring for power. Rather, women accept God’s holy order and character by being humbly and unobtrusively respectful and receptive in functional subordination to God, church leadership, and husbands. —James Fowler, Women in the Church, 1999.
Women will be saved by going back to that role that God has chosen for them. Ladies, if the hair on the back of your neck stands up it is because you are fighting your role in the scripture. —Mark Driscoll, founder of Mars Hill nondenominational mega-church franchise. (1970-)
Salon lists twenty of these quotes in all, each one incredibly insulting and degrading towards women.
The Christian religion was never created to support women. It was created to subjugate them, render them mute, and to bend them to the will of man, using the ultimate male figure to frighten them into subservience.
Which of course brings up the question which vexes me still. I understand why women of years past might have simply accepted their circumstances, since they had not way out of them at the time, but with all that we know today, and the voice that women have found for themselves, why do so many continue to self identify as Christians?
There are few more representative examples of how women and girls are treated by the evangelical sects than the Duggar family of "19 kids and counting" fame.
ReplyDeleteFor example, Jill Duggar wanted to go to college for nursing.
Although she was already a legal adult she still had to ask JimBob's permission. He told her he'd have to pray on it.
When he got back to Jill his answer was NO. It's not the right time. Then he found her a husband.
So now she's going to have 4 kids before she even knows what happened, and then all hope of education, career, travel, exploration, or critical thinking is gone.
The Duggar girls and young women from these Quivering families are typically forbidden to go to college, they can't work outside the home, and their life consists of being groomed as brood mares.
Their chief occupation so far in life is to raise the dozens of younger siblings, cook dinner, do the wash, and submit absolutely to their father in every request he makes, no matter how debasing, demeaning, or intrusive in their lives.
Their future is only one thing, for Dad to find a man and hand over management of her life to a young man who has nearly zero experience of the world, because he's been brought up in the Christian bubble too.
The young woman is then to submit to utterly, and have as many kids as possible.
Can't say no to sex, she's just a baby factory from now til menopause. Birth control is not an option for these girls and women.
No jobs, no education or college, no traveling, no exploration of the world, no career, no personal growth.
Bible, babies every year, and housework, full stop for 25 years.
The Quivering movement and many of its related Christian cult like movements amount to literal slavery for the girls and women.
You can read stories of the horrific physical, emotional, and sexual abuse and slavery at
http://www.nolongerquivering.com
Yes, the Duggars are one of the more extreme examples of how Christianity suppresses women's rights, but what the Christian Taliban is doing around the world is just reprehensible.
I'm glad you mentioned those psychos! The Free Jinger - Quiver Full of Snark board is my favorite forum after this one!
Delete"why do so many continue to self identify as Christians?"
ReplyDeleteThe same reason everyone else does: they don't actually READ the shit. They just "know in their hearts" that it's all goodness and light. Just like their politics, what they don't know, they fill in with gutsy-feely shit they just made up.
And in both cases, it doesn't help that there are insanely profitable industries that have grown up around the concept of reinforcing their false perceptions...
Exactly. They don't bother to educate themselves. And I see it here a lot too, unfortunately. Somebody will trash Sarah Palin (deservedly needless to say) for her faux Christianity, but then go on to preen herself or himself that Sarah doesn't represent REAL Christians like, presumably, the much more liberal, progressive, and educated poster. Problem is there is absolutely zero evidence that the Jesus Christ portrayed in the New Testament existed, and when you point that out, you get the "I know in my heart" crap. People do it because it makes them feel superior, regardless of their political leaning, I guess. Because that's the takeaway from it I always get.
DeleteWhat's that "stand your ground" law again?
ReplyDeleteAnd, jkarov at 4:47am--I also think the Quiverful insanity allows the menfolk to shop around for a younger model when Mom is no longer able to conceive. That means Daddy JimBoob can introduce a young brood mare babe into the mix when Mother Michelle's overtaxed body has reached its limit. If that's true, I'm sure that'll send her over the edge and make for some interesting ree-ality TV for the drones who love this travesty.
Over the years, I have met many who think that women should be subservient to men. My answer to them is always the same and it always brings stunned silence:
ReplyDeleteIf I was meant to be subservient to some man, why was I given a superior brain and a tongue to match?
I am subservient to no one (well, except my boss at work who is a woman with a brain and tongue superior to mine).
This is the very reason why I don't believe in the bible at all. Some would say that it is the truth but even as a small girl I saw a serious disconnect in the logic. I dig Jesus' message about loving each other and his whole socialist message which I am totally down with but explaining why I don't believe anything from the Bible has been futile. I would like for the human race to come to a place where they love each other but I do think religious training makes some close minded and they think they have a direct pipeline to the source.
ReplyDeleteHow can men have such a low opinion of women when half of their genetic makeup is from their mother's genes? I guess they don't think that umbilical cord transferred sustenance to them for nine months and those breasts sustained them with milk until they could eat solid food. Oh yeah, they don't THINK.
ReplyDeleteThey do think. They think they are better then women.
DeleteThe men who do look down on women need to be able to tell themselves that there is someone lower on the status totem pole than they are. Of course, that applies to everyone who taunts, bullies, harasses, negatively objectifies, etc., another person, regardless of gender.
DeleteMen try to twist the gospels to accommodate their wishes. The quotes above are men's thoughts, not God's.
ReplyDeleteEphesians does give an example of wives and husbands treating themselves as Christ would treat the Church.
It does ask wives to submit themselves unto their husbands, as unto the Lord. But two verses down, it asks "Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also love the church and gave himself for it.
"So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself." Don't forget Jesus supported Mary, who wanted to learn his teaching, and sat, while Martha was upset that she had to do al the meal preparation work.
The first command after Jesus left earth, was quoted by Peter to the crowd of first believers, the prophecy of the prophet Joel who said that in those days that God said he would pour His spirit upon all flesh; and his sons and his daughters would prophesy, and young men would see visions and old men would dream dreams. Also, "and on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophecy".
Also, Jesus was asked what people would be in heaven, and about whose wife or husband would one belong to, if one had many spouses. Jesus said that we would neither be male or female, but like the angels.
So, I disagree that the Bible (New Testament) teaches to subjugate women. Cultures subjugate women.
Do really not see the difference between "submit" and "love?" Notice that men don't have to submit to their wives.
DeleteThat's the kind of bullshit that preachers have been using to keep women down for generations. Wifey has to submit to her husband's will, but at least he loves her.
Wake up. Both the word of your god and the actions of his followers subjugate women.
I have two pre-teen daughters. Am I supposed to teach them that they will have to submit to their husbands, let their husbands make all the decisions, and ultimately keep their pretty mouths shut, but in return, their husbands have to love them?
DeleteNope.
And that is all FUCKING BULLSHIT.
DeleteI grew up in a very anti-female church (eg wife's role is to not work outside the home, but dress up in pearls and heels to serve her husband home-cooked meals each night--yes, it was a large, white church whose congregants tended to have the kinds of jobs that enabled one-income families and pearls), and I've experienced severe discrimination that probably crossed into abuse. Here are a few thoughts, based on conversations with liberal pastors, research, and experiences:
ReplyDelete1. Many people who use the Bible to defend their hatred of women choose very selectively. The Quiverful movement, in which the Duggars are prominent, plucked one verse from Psalms as the foundation for their lifestyle. The snake-handling churches did the same thing.
The "curse" in Genesis 3:16, quoted by Tertullian above ("your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you") goes on, in verses 17-18, "Cursed is the ground because of you; In toil you will eat of it all the days of your life. Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you." I said (in my Christian h.s.) that it was hypocritical to embrace one part of the curse and fight against others. If you believe women are supposed to be subservient because of this passage, then you shouldn’t weed your garden or landscape your yard, right? No one answered this question.
2. Some passages in the Bible are flagrantly sexist. Others are surprisingly progressive not only for their time but for ours. Jesus himself treated women with a respect and humanity that was almost unheard of in that era, or so I've been told by people who have studied the original language and culture.
3. Some seemingly sexist passages have likely been misinterpreted. For example, "women must be quiet in church" was probably not a universal proclamation. Rather, the argument goes, one church had a problem with a group of very talkative women who were gossiping and disrupting the services. So the letter was telling them to be quiet and listen--not saying all women throughout time must be quiet in church.
There is no doubt whatsoever that many of the "church fathers" were appallingly sexist, and they were the ones who decided on the canonical Bible. It's only natural that they chose books that supported their own agendas, including hatred for women, and rejected others that contradicted those views.
I think you can find whatever you're looking for in the Bible. If you want to use it to justify slavery, sexism, racism, homophobia, capitalism, the United States being a theocracy, imprecatory prayer and hating your enemies, why Jesus didn't really mean you have to love your neighbor, the NRA...you can find passages to support your opinion. You can find the opposite perspectives there, too. It reflects what you bring to it.
Let me say this, too: In the world of binary oppositions in which I was raised, logic/science fell into the male category, while emotion/intuition were decidedly female and therefore always unreliable and suspect. Logic was a bludgeon used to try to remove my compassion and love. In learning, as an adult, not to consider myself inferior or lacking or inadequate as a woman, I also began to privilege the intuitive and emotional. So if you think my beliefs are illogical and unscientific, I agree, and I'm comfortable with that. I don't need them to make sense to anyone else. I'm not trying to proselytize, just speak to Gryphen's question about why women continue to identify as Christians.
As a young girl, I was told that the women in our church weren't allowed to hold office or vote (in the church). That was enough for me to decide that it wasn't for me. So no, I don't understand how the women who are told to "be quiet and serve your man" can stay in those churches at all. I'm pretty sure that I'd get up in the middle of the sermon and walk out in a loud and extremely rude manner.
ReplyDeleteExcuse me, but "fuck that shit". My husband laughs everytime he hears some idiot say women should be meek. He knows that no one tells me what to do and he loves me that way. Now, if he asks me nice, I'll do just about anything for him. Screw this cave man crap that the right is trying to bring back.
ReplyDeletePeople are "taught" to be religious. For those of us who were never indoctrinated it's hard for us to understand. Not having been raised with any religion it seems to me that the absolute ridiculousness of it all means that someone had to convince the young people that this was true and this was what they should believe, because any thinking person would call Bullshit on this craziness unless it was shoved down their throats under threat of punishment.
ReplyDeleteI don't think people can come to this on their own without being brainwashed by community or family. Kind of sad from my perspective, but for those that don't actually use religion for evil purposes there seems no harm done, but they are few and far between, seems to me about only 1% of religious people don't use it to fuck over someone else that isn't brainwashed in the same manner as themselves.
Live and let live is generally my credo but religion has hurt so many more than it has helped so I'm really all for wiping off the face of the earth at any cost.
To answer your last question, Gryph...
ReplyDeleteIn many cases, women become/stay Christians because they haven't read the Bible.
Seriously: ask the Christian women you know if they've read the Bible. I keep asking the self-proclaimed Christians I know and so far the number that HAVE read the Bible is
...zero.
Slightly off topic
ReplyDelete"A big reason climate change isn’t a priority: The apocalypse"
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-fix/wp/2014/11/21/a-big-reason-climate-change-isnt-a-priority-the-apocalypse/
I read the Bible years ago, though it wasn't in the Catholic Curriculum. What I can't wrap my head around is why people want to live a "biblical life" in the first place. It's basically taken from a long oral tradition passed down from generation to generation, then written by different authors, translated into many languages and kept the book presses busy and rich as hell. They're basically stories, fables, whatever you want to call them, People reading it NOW are reading things out of context, but since no one changes the wording, it has to be taken literally, and the mistreatment of women should be the first thing edited out.
ReplyDeleteI'd like to see a man give birth then say "women are the weaker sex" just once. I raised my kids to respect women, and no one's going to put limits on what my daughters are "allowed" to do based on the Bible. Same with my Son.
Chancellor of Germany Angela Merkel ( and holder of a doctorate in chemistry) self-identifies as Christian. So do Hillary Clinton and Michelle Obama. Flannery O'Connor, Joan Chittister, Kathleen Norris, the "Nuns on the Bus," etc. belie the insulting stereotype flogged in this post.
ReplyDeleteHow far back in history do you want to go? Hildegard of Bingen, Julian of Norwich, Claire of Assisi, and countless other Christian women have had an enormous, lasting impact on culture and history.
You can't fit the broad array of smart, brave, heroically strong Christian women, whether ancient or modern, into a belittling pigeon-hole of submission to male authority, try as you might.
Everyone has their blind spots.
DeleteNone of these women are perfect or above criticism.