People should not assume that religion will always be a part of human society just because it has existed for so long, according to theoretical physicist Lawrence Krauss. Religion could disappear in the span of a single generation.
“People say, ‘Well, religion has been around since the dawn of man. You’ll never change that.’ But I point out that… this issue of gay marriage, it is going to go away, because if you have a child, a 13-year-old, they can’t understand what the issue is. It’s gone. One generation is all it takes,” he said at an event called the Victorian Skeptics Cafe 2014.
“So, I can tell you a generation ago people said there is no way people would allow gay marriage, and slavery — essentially — [gone in] a generation, we got rid of it,” Krauss continued. “Change is always one generation away… so if we can plant the seeds of doubt in our children, religion will go away in a generation, or at least largely go away. And that’s what I think we have an obligation to do.”
Krauss was addressing whether religion should be taught to children in school. Though, as an atheist, he opposes religious education, he said he does support teaching comparative religion classes instead of completely “shying away” from the topic.
“What we need to do is present comparative religion as a bunch of interesting historical anecdotes, and show the silly reasons why they did what they did,” he remarked.
He said educators should force children to confront their own misconceptions.
“But you don’t shy away from religion any more than you shy away from the claim that Earth is the center of the universe. We laugh at that now, and we get kids to realize why that might be wrong… and so we should take other falsifiable facts, which are at the center of our society, which is religious doctrine, and make just as much fun of that.”
I am not quite as confident that religion can be eradicated in one, or even two, enlightened generations, but I do agree that planting those seeds of doubt and offering classes that compare religions without lending credence to one over another, will surely have a positive effect on the ability of our children break free from the shackles of ignorance and superstition.
Not only that, but I firmly believe that doing so is necessary for the survival of our species.
Theocratic nations like Iran or Saudi Arabia have existed for thousands of years.
ReplyDeleteI don't see fanatics like Jerry Prevo, Bryan Fischer, or Ted Cruz giving up their Christian Jihad any time soon, and they are teaching all their armies of kids to believe the same mythology.
I know that I've said this before on IM, but I think it's going to take at least another 500 years before religion is discredited enough among humans to begin to lose its influence on government and law.
Til then, all we can do is point out that in America, we have a Constitution that outlaws establishment of religion, and per Article 6, paragraph 3, mandates no religious test to hold any political office or judgeship.
Oh yeah? I have two words for him. The Duggars.
ReplyDeleteI don't think we have 500 years left on this planet. It will be made uninhabitable by the idiots trying to rapture into heaven.
Some form of "religion" has been around since neanderthals started gathering in groups. It was used to try to explain things which weren't understandable. It still is. It will always be, I'm afraid. Over the last several thousand years, it's been used to control people. Does anyone really see that ending? Krauss has his head in the clouds.
ReplyDeleteWell said. There will always be people who cannot reason.
DeleteOT
ReplyDeleteHi, Jesse.
I'm still reeling from Tuesday. :/
But I just saw this Daily Show Clip and I thought it was too good not to share.
http://www.hulu.com/watch/709724
:: There's a miraculous New Day in America b/c NOW that the Repugs are in control, the stock market has shot up, unemployment is down, etc.
Can the Repugs claim this is their doing?
"YES, THEY CAN!"
And the bad stuff in the country?
Ugh, F$ck Obama.
I don't think religion will go away, and I'm not sure the end of religion is desirable. Having religious beliefs makes me a better, more moral person--not because I have a system of rules to follow or because I think some big genie in the sky will send me to hell if I fuck up. It gives me a philosophical basis to care about others and the environment and a reason why my actions matter. If I love God and believe God created (in whatever way I choose to believe s/he created) plants and animals and people, that to me is a powerful motivation to respect and nurture rather than exploit them. I'm a bitch sometimes, and I would be a raging psycho bitch if I didn't have spiritual beliefs that remind me to temper my behavior and be loving toward others. I realize this is not how most evangelicals believe or act, but theirs is not the only perspective or approach to religion.
ReplyDeleteAlso, maybe this is just me, but I like living in a world in which science can't explain everything. I like mystery and mysticism. I like that there are fairy rings in the park where I walk my dog and that as I drove home on Halloween night, I saw a man walking by the side of the road, and when I looked back he was gone. I like that my belief system lets me think he was a ghost, rather than dictating that I must have had a visual hallucination brought on by exhaustion or night driving. So maybe I'm silly or irrational or superstitious, but who cares?
If only all the world shared your wonderful, creative, open-hearted spiritual sense! Then religion would not be the cudgel it has become; something too often used to belittle, enslave, hold back or kill the "others".
DeleteI, too, don't see religion going away, but if it can change to be more inclusive and spiritual rather than dogmatic and rigid, it will finally be a good to the world rather than an evil.
I don't believe that's true. You are a non-pyscho not b/c of your beliefs but rather b/c that's who you are. Don't put yourself down. You care abt others b/c that's who you are. After being raised a catholic, then switching to Presbyterian in college, then evangelical since I've seen the best and worst of Christianity. I used to believe as you do, but since believe religion simply amplifies your personality & behavior, it doesn't change it. People who are jerks find ways to be passive-aggressive asses shrouded in the guise of religion. People who are good are subconsciously guilted into doing more, doing better.
DeleteWell, the news that the Catholic church in NY is consolidating their parishes by melding them into half of the existing should be good news to you, Gryphen!
ReplyDeleteAs the descendant of a disillusioned child of a Holy Roller, I've been very fortunate to escape the poisonous influence (mostly) of Xtianity, but it's so polluted our entire society that it is difficult to get entirely away.
Still, as long as they aren't burning heretics at the stake (for now) we can hope that the Enlightenment continues.
Unless there's a sudden Dominionist takeover (not impossible), religion will slowly continue to fade, generation by generation. There is a base of 30-35% of the people out there who NEED to believe in a caring God, the possibility of redemption, and an after-life. (Somewhat like there is a base of 30-35% Republicans out there. Hmmm.)
ReplyDeleteYou Gryphen, a class on Christianity I took at Berkeley 15 yrs ago, and the royally messed up nitwits at my church have converted me to atheism. I've always had doubts but intentionally chose faith despite them. I found I no longer had it in me to submerge my mind back in the mythology anymore. When you've experienced as much hardship as I have & then hear people blather about how God has blessed them...ugh. There just aren't words. He seems to have forgotten about most of the planet. The kicker was the former pastor's wife telling me my very sick kid didn't need medication if we just had more faith in the skygod. I'm not "out " yet, my husband still attends. I'm having a hard time w/allowing my daughter to still attend & go to youth group. She loves it there & has attended for 12/12 yrs of her life. If I could replace it w/ some other support/social system I would. The problem is there are no atheist youth groups I'm aware of. Churches serve a social function in many communities.
ReplyDeleteI was already an Atheist, but I took a comparative religion course in college, and when I walked out I remember thinking that there is no way to stay religious after taking this course.
DeleteAt that point I thought it should be mandatory for ALL public school children. And I still do.
Interesting. But the ranks of pagans are growing, as are wiccans and there might be a few more Buddhists these days too. I'm thinking that the extreme branches of organized religions will be the first to feel the fade out.
ReplyDeleteI can't call myself an atheist because I believe in some kind of higher power. It might just be electricity for all I know. But whatever kind of power that might be, it doesn't need to be worshiped or glorified and I certainly don't need any kind of religion to believe in it.
ReplyDeleteEverything in nature is a "higher power" over humans. Storms, wind, the ocean... What is there to "believe" in? Humans are gods to ants, but we don't expect or desire that they believe in us or worship us.
DeleteI became a slave to a higher power the very instant I started chasing after women. Believe me, I fucking know who the higher power is in my world.
DeleteThere is another reason religion will fade away. There is a growing awareness of the union of science and magic. I know this thought process is poo poo'd by many. I am not one as I've come to this place in life the same way you got to yours - one foot in front of the other.
ReplyDeleteI am a person who found the pagan path, discovered High Magic and realized many of the incantations resembled equations I'd read in a physics book. My talent is leaping from one fact to the Truth and Heart of a Matter. It's also Perfect Timing but that's another discussion; When I completed a ritual I would see these equations flashing through the back of my mind. I never try to understand them - a bit like a centipede thinking about walking, thank you very much.
Perhaps I'm not the only person who has made the connection between science and magic.There are many who call themselves Quantum Activists. I may be one of them. I'm not sure exactly if I have to join a club or something.
Anyway, when I'm meditating at the quantum string level, shouldn't my guiding principles be for the good of all and may it harm none? If intent does indeed alter manifestation I would think it matters a lot. I believe there have always been people with this extra sight. Not into magic but perhaps into another dimension. Physics tells me there are multiple Universes and up to 11 or 13 dimensions.
What if those with the sight are merely seeing what exists but is undetectable by others? Those without infrared glasses can't see in the dark either.
These extra senses are responsible for religion. You know someone had to take advantage. Greed is an ugly force. Anyway, just my six cents.
What does your "sight" tell you about my gender? Am I a woman or a man? You have a 50% chance to guess correctly. Give one concrete example of something, anything, you can see that I cannot see.
DeleteBtw, I am the only one who can see the translucent species of blue whales swimming in the clouds. And my incantations resemble not equations but jokes that have the power to make people laugh.
Honestly - If my abilities did anything but make my life rather miserable do you think I would have posted as anonymous?
DeleteI have healing in limited quantities - couldn't heal my husband when he got cancer but I could help with the pain a bit. I'm fairly good with mind to mind communication but I have to be close to the person as reading a stranger is both inpolite and icky. What is in some peoples heads!!! Ick.
As for your ability to see translucent blue whales... I guess you are trying for a grin but you failed. Thank you for laughing not with me but at me. Again, this is why I posted anonymous.
"There is a growing awareness of the union of science and magic." This is the first I've heard of this "awareness." Science always exposes "magic" as flimflam.
Delete"Anyway, when I'm meditating at the quantum string level, shouldn't my guiding principles be for the good of all and may it harm none?" You are insinuating you possess some sort of mental ability that gives you some sort of supernatural power to harm others. Btw, what does the quantum string level look like while you're meditating in there? Every theoretical physicist in the world wants to know.
"What if those with the sight are merely seeing what exists but is undetectable by others?" I claim to see an entire species of blue whales. Again, what is it exactly that you can "see" that I can't "see?"
"Thank you for laughing not with me but at me." What reaction did you expect? Awe?
Expectations lead to disappointment. If you've not learned that basic lesson there is nothing more we have to say to each other.
DeleteThis is for me:
I don't want to be as I am. I've spent most of my life doing my freaking dead level best to NOT be only to find out that my idea of dealing is toxic and not to be considered. All through this discovery phase my abilities leaked out of me like water from a badly maintained damn. I will say I had to sit down and take a moment.
For me it boils down to being a skeptic who admits that we humans do not know everything. I welcome discussions with the scientists who can help me explain how and why I can do what I do.
I'll leave you with this, Anonymous watcher of whales in the sky:
Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind. Dr Seuss
All scientists are skeptics. 99% of my time is spent in nearly blind ignorance. But it is an HONEST ignorance.
Delete"I welcome discussions with the scientists who can help me explain how and why I can do what I do." Okay, let's have a discussion. Again, what is it exactly that you can "do" and "see" that I cannot?
No, it will take longer than 1 generation.
ReplyDeleteBy 2100 maybe.
Organized religion exists because it is profitable. A business that can sell a product that costs nothing for a high price does make a profit. Religion is a business. The product that religion sells is a set of rules. It costs nothing to make up the rules. But the rules can be sold over and over again. For example, Mormonism is relatively new and someone has surely made big bucks to slap together those pricey churches they have in my neighborhood!
ReplyDeleteIf a religion has rules that encourage power to flow to some people while limiting the power of other people, the religion has a very good chance at making HUGE profits. For example, the Catholic church systematical limits the power of women. That makes the Catholic church rules very valuable to men that want to control women. The vast wealth of the Catholic church is the result of centuries of hugely profitable activity.
As long as religion remains profitable, it won't die.
2:21 PM....you are absolutely right! Also, I thought at
ReplyDeleteone time, who is this guy yelling at his flock that we are
all sinners, and at the same time trying to kiss me behind
a door, while his wife was in the nursery. That was the end of him in that church! Goes on all of the time.
No organized religion for me ! It is more fulfilling to be kind
and helpful , and at the same time , strong in my convictions.
Why is a physicist making a prediction about the future of religion? Not very scientific of him. Probably just wishful thinking at work.
ReplyDeleteFirst time I saw this man was in an awful documentary on Netflix. It was cheaply produced, but even overlooking the cheesiness, Krauss is clearly out of his league when he approaches the transcendent..He has no training in philosophy or religion or the history of those disciplines. He lacks even the language to express himself articulately.
There are over 2 billion Christians on earth, over 1 billion Hindus, 1.5+ billion Muslims, plus Jews, Zoroastrians, Mormons, Buddhists (and yes it is a religion), followers of Baha'i and Vodun and many more.
Those groups are not going to dwindle to zero in the foreseeable future. All religions have a higher family retention rate than atheism, according to Pew research.
It's as if Krauss, like Gryphen, took one class in comparative religion, and then gave up. He should stick to physics. I expect he's good at that.