As an Atheist I see ALL religions as equally ridiculous and unnecessary, but when the definition of a religion is co-opted as the definition of a race of people that makes challenging their beliefs an attack on their ethnicity. Which of course it is not.
The most complicated example of this, in my mind, is the Jewish people.
They self identify as Jewish, and of course they usually embrace Judaism. So where the religious identity ends and the racial identity takes over is almost imperceptible.
Even non-practicing Jews often cannot separate their identity and heritage from the religion of their parents and grandparents.
But the problem with this is that in reality no child is born a Christian, or Muslim, or Jew, or Buddhist, and if they were taken out of the hospital to live in a non-religious household they would have no concept of the yoke of religion that their ancestors labored under for centuries. They would in effect be free.
Personally I think the blurred line between ethnicity and religion is purposeful and designed to keep people from criticizing religion, and Islam in particular.
And that is really fucked up, because currently there are probably few religions that desperately need to be challenged as forcefully as Islam right now. I mean the Saudi Arabian religious leader just recently refused to condemn the idea of adult men marrying girls younger than fifteen years of age for fuck's sake.
So yes that needs to be challenged not just in the United States, where we have the right to mock any religion or set of beliefs that we choose, but also in other countries many of who are still able to murder such critics in the name of apostasy.
Good point, paranoia about being labelled racist is preventing fair discussion that might benefit us.
ReplyDeleteToo often when a number of people (including Muslim leaders) gather to discuss religion, religious crime or extremism, most of those present waste most of the discussion time on defending their own faith/ethnic background. They're so busy trying to protect the reputation of their own breed with the same assurances that viewers have all heard and accepted many, many times before, that the group barely get to touch on the real purpose of the discussion and we are left, once again, with a group of indignant and self-consumed people. The chance of advancing peoples' understanding of themselves and each other is wasted !!
All the best,
Woody
I agree, and it's American ex- Muslims who do it most forcefully right now. There is something called islam- watch on the net, written by people of the ethnicity of current Muslims.
ReplyDeleteExcellent post!
ReplyDeleteMore of this and less of what Palin and her brood are up to, please.
But the Palin shenanigans get the most attention... you are out of luck.
DeletePalin embraces an agenda that would remove separation of church & state & sees christianity as the one true religion...kind of like some muslims. She deserves the critisim she receives. The AIP Party has stated that to be successful, they must have members in power in both parties. She is one of theirs & although she holds no power, she entices anti-government hate & division amoung the angry fringe of our nation. So, no, we should not let up on AIP Palin.
DeleteIf the Palin stuff gets people here and those people read about the other topics, that's a good thing.
DeleteI've actually noticed in the last few months Gryphen writing more about religion and other politics along with the Palin-related posts.
Considering the latest insanity from the Palin camp, I think 2015 will be her year of reckoning (sooner rather than later, hopefully). And when she is exposed along with the people in power who facilitated her rise, we will all be thanking Gryphen for not letting up on his full-court press.
DeleteYou should live here in the New England States G. Most everyone grows up (over 75%) free to be whatever it is they like.
ReplyDeleteAnd for those who say that without religion, you will have more crime, etc.... the stats that came out the other day show that Maine has the lowest rate of incarceration in the nation. And most of the other New England states also have low rates of incarceration, probation, etc....
And the New England States are the least likely to go to church (less than 25%). We must have learned from those God Awful Puritans and the witch burners.
I agree New England seems to be more free thinking than most of the country. I live in New Hampshire and feel that most people believe in live your life and let me live mine.
DeletePerhaps your proximity to Canada influences
Deleteyour ability to be more tolerant and free-thinking!!!
Just sayin' :)
I wonder at your use of the word "mock" in relation to the wonderful freedom we Americans possess to believe, or not to believe.
ReplyDeleteChoosing a faith, or un-faith, does not imply the freedom to mock or make fun of anyone else's choice.
Most children aren't given a choice
DeleteAnon 6:18--- You're right. The wonderful freedom of speech we Americans possess guarantees the freedom to mock anything we choose.
ReplyDeleteJulie in Denver
Bullshit. You have no clue about this.
ReplyDeleteI've been around strangers, working colleagues, all of different ethnicities, religions, atheists etc. and never got into arguments with any of them. I never challenged them, nor they me. We got along and kept our thoughts to ourselves.
ReplyDeleteIf a conversation struck up about religion, it was always respectful. This in Canada and in the eastern U.S. I have to admit I wonder where the contentious mockers are. Of course, the internet is a medium that brings lots of critics and nasties out of the woodwork. But in my view, people on the street are still tolerant and sensitive.
There's still positive out there. If we look for the negative, we'll find it, but why look?
Gryphen, adult men marrying young girls, many younger than 15 was common in America within the last 100 years. In fact with parental permission girls as young as 14 can still be married today. California actually has no age limit with parental consent. And in Alaska marriage under 16 requires parental consent. I know a couple of ladies in Alaska who were married at 15. Usually it involved a pregnancy. And at 16 in Alaska you can get married without parental consent.
ReplyDeleteHere is a state by state list. http://family.findlaw.com/marriage/state-by-state-marriage-age-of-consent-laws.html
Yes I do realize that but the men of Saudi Arabia are marrying girls as young as nine or ten.
DeleteNot quite the same thing.
There is sone scientific proof to refute what you are saying. Jewish people may choose to practice their religion' but it is a race. Just look up the medical genetics of Ashkenazi Jews. Or Sephardic Jews. I don't think you understand this as well as you think you do but you seem to have a real thing about proving that the Jewish people were not persecuted because of their race, but because of their religion. You have made several posts alluding to this. I don't practice Judiasm because I think the religion is nonsense but I am a Jew. It isn't a choice. It just is.
ReplyDeleteThank you for that post 7:12.
DeleteI am tired of these simplistic religious posts.
BULLSHIT. Ashkenazism is an ethnicity, NOT a separate race. DNA research has proven that. But go right on enjoying feeling persecuted, although you'll never surpass the Christian flair for it.
Delete"In his new book, “Legacy: A Genetic History of the Jewish People,” Harry Ostrer, a medical geneticist and professor at Albert Einstein College of Medicine in New York, claims that Jews are different, and the differences are not just skin deep. Jews exhibit, he writes, a distinctive genetic signature."
Deletehttp://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/jewish-world-news/dna-links-prove-jews-are-a-race-says-genetics-expert-1.428664
This is just one of many credible articles about Jewish DNA.
As I Jew, I was raised by parents who didn't believe in God and didn't practice religion. My Jewish soul asserted itself in my 30s. I still have doubts about the existence of God, and don't practice the religion, but I have no doubt at all that my innermost being is Jewish.
8:11 - If you have proof of your mean spirited response, please post it.
DeleteAnon 8:11 says: "DNA research has proven that."
DeleteUh...links? Or GTFO and STFU
OK, we have a few different issues here.
DeleteJews are NOT a race, for two reasons:
First as others have explained here, plenty of Jew are not Eastern European (Ashkenazi). Some of us are Ethiopian, Yemenite, Bukhara,
Cochin and many others. Google those and you will see folks of varied appearances.
Secondly, biologically speaking, there is NO SUCH THING as race. Yeah, read that again.
Race is a social, political or cultural category. It has NO meaning biologically. Any fertile female of any race can mate with any fertile male of any race and produce viable offspring. ( I explained this here recently.) There is ONE race, it is called the HUMAN RACE. Now, I know there is something called Racism which is about oppression, perceptions and reactions to others. The biological category of race was created, in part, to justify oppression and separation.
Now about this issue of Jews identifying as such, even when they(we) are not religious:
The experience of being a Jew usually involves clear ethnic foods, languages, attitudes, so we have a culture- (varied ethnicities as I explained above) that identifies and connects us to a certain extent. The other big piece of this is recent oppression. When you have the Holocaust in your family, when you have uncles, aunts, etc. with numbers tattooed on their arms, you remember this. When you have old photos of 20 people and your parents tell you that they were all murdered, you remember this.
I am not one to celebrate disaster. I do not think it is healthy for any of us to ritually repeat traumas - whether it is "stations of the cross" or enslavement and genocide. That is part of the reason that I am not interested in organized religion. However, I think it is important to understand why some of us still clearly identify as Jews, even though we are not religious and have married folks who are not Jews, etc.
I am the daughter of a lapsed Jewish woman. Her family were Russian Jews that fled the pogoms. She didn't grow up in the Jewish religion, but her Mother and family definitely were. I knew quite a bit of Hebrew and am familiar with many Jewish beliefs and traditions through their influence as a young child. I have been told, many times through out my life, that I AM JEWISH. I am the daughter of a Jewish woman, doesn't matter if I never was brought into the Temple. They claim me. I am claimed forever - so they say. So I got that going to for me - for whatever that's worth.
DeleteWhat about the Ethipian Jews ? The Greek Jews ? In antiquity, Judaism welcomed other than jew- ethnic people... and still does. Sorry to be insensitive, but if ashkenaz jews have different genes from sephardic jews, than doesn't make either of them races, but that does makes them inbred people. Same for every other religious and ethnic coincidence : it's inbreeding for religious grounds.
ReplyDeleteNature: International Weekly Journal of Science
ReplyDelete"Jews worldwide share genetic ties"
http://www.nature.com/news/2010/100603/full/news.2010.277.html
Bill Maher will be doing his show again beginning this Friday. I'm sure he had a wonderful vacation in Hawaii, but I always miss him when he's away. Never miss his show on cable!
ReplyDeleteI don't accept Black as a race.
ReplyDeleteIt's a skin color. As is White. There is but one human race.
As for maintaining Black, or White, why should we inbreed for that ? Creole people are beautiful.
I grew up in a multi etnic neighborhood (aka "Ghetto") we were poor, but didn't know it because so was everyone else. In my neighborhood, you were EVERYONE'S child, and I mean that in more than a "it takes a villiage" way. For the most part, we all got along.
ReplyDeleteWhen we became a pariah, was after we married and chose NOT to bestow a formal religion, nor do any "rites" or "covenants", we left out son's privates intact and no one was Baptized. We got it from everyone, we're going to hell if anything happens to those kids and they aren't in a religion.
But it was our decision to wait and let them choose for themselves.
I had a long talk with my parents, and when they realized how strongly we felt, they butted out. We mark off "none" in the religion column, we had a civil, simple marriage with a Justice. Long After I was excommunicated, both sides of my family supported me, along with "aunts" and "uncles" (neighbors who raised me) along with my husband and his family, and it made a huge difference in how I see humanity and people of all races/religions.
I wouldn't go out and tell people they're going to hell if they don't stop the nonsense, and I won't stand by and do nothing when I see someone mistreated over their beliefs, I used to think Italy and italians were "more religious" than others, till I went there and saw for myself they're far from it. Adultery is treated lightly, men go pick up their "dates" on the steps of churches and cathedrals in the big towns, rail stations in the small towns, and the wives know and say nothing. It's the wife's "cross to bear", sorry, that boat don't float in my book.
Isn't it okay to not care about any of it? My family hasn't practiced any religion in 4 generations. I'm free, and I feel sorry for those that aren't. That's enough for me.
ReplyDelete