Like any truly honest student of religious history, I tend to resist the urge to say that I am definitely certain of anything when it comes to religion.. However if forced at gunpoint to choose sides between those that believe and those that don't I would not hesitate to take my place standing with Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins, and Christopher Hitchens.
Of the three my library only contains books written by Harris and Dawkins, as I have always found Hitchens to be somewhat pompous and imperious for my tastes.
Having said that I was rendered slack-jawed at Hitchens amazing opening statement (Starts at the 4:53 mark) in the beginning of his debate with Tony Blair. Here read it for yourself.
Once you assume a creator and a plan, it makes us objects, in a cruel experiment, whereby we are created sick, and commanded to be well. I'll repeat that. Created sick, and then ordered to be well. And over us, to supervise this, is installed a celestial dictatorship, a kind of divine North Korea. Greedy, exigent, greedy for uncritical phrase from dawn until dusk and swift to punish the original since with which it so tenderly gifted us in the very first place.
However, let no one say there's no cure, salvation is offered, redemption, indeed, is promised, at the low price of the surrender of your critical faculties. Religion, it might be said, it must be said, would have to admit makes extraordinary claims but though I would maintain that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, rather daringly provides not even ordinary evidence for its extraordinary supernatural claims.
Therefore, we might begin by asking, and I'm asking my opponent as well as you when you consider your voting, is it good for the world to appeal to our credulity and not to our scepticism? Is it good for the world to worship a deity that takes sides in wars and human affairs? To appeal to our fear and to our guilt, is it good for the world? To our terror, our terror of death, is it good to appeal?
To preach guilt and shame about the sexual act and the sexual relationship, is this good for the world? And asking yourself all the while, are these really religious responsibilities, as I maintain they are? To terrify children with the image of hell and eternal punishment, not just of themselves, but their parents and those they love. Perhaps worst of all, to consider women an inferior creation, is that good for the world, and can you name me a religion that has not done that? To insist that we are created and not evolved in the face of all the evidence. To say that certain books of legend and myth, man-made and primitive, are revealed not man-made code. (You can find the entire transcript at the New Statesman.)
Regardless of where you stand on the issue of religion and its importance to humanity, the words spoken above must, at the very least, give one pause. It is even more impressive that Hitchens remains so defiant to the comforting, yet intellectually numbing embrace of religion when he faces his own mortality in the form of esophageal cancer.
My combative personal relationship with religion has always been defined by the fact that it asked too much of me in exchange for its simple answers to the complex questions of my life. It demands that I turn off my critical thinking and eschew logic in exchange for allowing its tendrils to enter my consciousness and soothe my troubled spirit.
However, apparently unlike many other Americans, there is NO off switch connected to my critical thinking, and NOTHING troubles my spirit as much as creating distance between it and logic. In short there is simply no way for me to get from where I am, to where the millions of people who readily embrace religion and accept on faith what science has been completely unable to discover have positioned themselves.
In my opinion, and please feel free to disagree with me, the very idea of choosing belief over reason seems to be the denying of that which makes us human. After all isn't it this amazing intellect of ours which has allowed us to elevate ourselves out of the day to day fight for survival which defines the life of the creatures to whom we feel so superior?
Here we are a species which has unlocked the very genome that identifies what makes us human, and explored the mysteries of space, and yet we still run toward the comforting bedtime fables of religious belief when we are overwhelmed by our troubles or feel fear at the approaching of our own mortality.
What am I missing?
I have no problem with persons of true faith, any faith... I find the loud and hate-filled extremists are nothing but war mongers, selfish and evil.
ReplyDelete- kellygrrrl
That was stunning. That was mind-blowing. I'm reeling. As a recovering Catholic and current agnostic, this helps articulate my criticism of institutionalized faith.
ReplyDeleteJust being a student of history reveals how the first imperialist governments utilized the church to ensure compliance, complicity and taxes. You don't need to be a religious scholar to become cynical of religious manipulation of the masses.
That said. I'm sure Sarah Palin is being sit down somewhere and being carefully instructed as to how to think about this debate, since she has to weigh in on absolutely everything and anything (all of em) that is in the headlines - meanwhile she's pissing and moaning"
What's he saying? What does this mean?" I don't understand. Damn educated elitists, does any of this really matter? As long as I have my juicy looks and exploitable kids and speak with unapologetic authority on everything, I don't have to meet the bar that others in the public realm set.
"Here we are a species which has unlocked the very genome that identifies what makes us human, and explored the mysteries of space, and yet we still run toward the comforting bedtime fables of religious belief when we feel overwhelmed by our troubles or feel fear at the approaching of our own mortality."
ReplyDeleteAn eloguent summation, Gryphen, of my own view of the prescriptions and demands required by religious "faith," which involves super-human efforts to meet even the least semblance of compliance--at the expense of ignoring issues confronting us right now. But isn't that the whole idea:-).
Thank you, from a confirmed agnostic.
Wow.
ReplyDeleteHitchens usually leaves me cold, but I must say he actually knocked me out with that opening salvo!
I have been an atheist since I was fourteen because I watched burning children running down roads in Vietnam. I watched other children my age being hosed by southern cops and attacked by dogs. I watched skulls being dug up in Chile, and newsmen being executed on the air. God pretty much left the build for me by then. And when a neighbor who regularly abused his wife and children harangued my parents to send me to church--- otherwise I'd go to hell---I knew that was the end.
I don't understand it. I never will. It seems too many modern day practitioners somehow confuse their God with their banker.
Great post Gryphen.
I agree with everything you posted, Gryphen. I grew up in an area of the country that is extremely *Christian* and never,
ReplyDeleteEVER could reconcile all the hypocrisy, intolerance, and contradictions in the bible.
However, I find myself trying not to think less of people who do believe in a god. I try to not be as prejudiced against the believers as some of them are prejudiced and misinformed about us non-believers. For me, it's kind of a spiritual journey in and of itself.
Gryphen... will you marry me?!?!?!
ReplyDeleteAmazing post. Totally agree. (I own books both by Dawkins and Hitchens...)
The problem is not with GOD. The problem is with MAN MADE organized Religion. Religion was created by man to control other men,.. for the benefit of those in power.
ReplyDeleteGryph... I have followed your blog for a long time, commenting on occasion and usually agreeing with your premise for writing.
ReplyDeleteThis post "hits home" as the saying goes. There is no one word I would change. You have articulated my world view and I thank you from the core of my belief which arises...
fromthediagonal
I think in Hitchen's first paragraph he says original sin not original since.
ReplyDeleteI grew up in the church (Southern Baptist in GA no less). I learned at an early age not to question anything that didn't make sense to me about religion. When I got older and could choose to go to church, I chose not to. After years of not really thinking about religion, I decided to study what both sides had to say. I read everything I could get my hands on for 2 years and came to the conclusion that I'm an atheist. I simply can't believe something that fantastical. Although Dawkins is my favorite, that speech of Hitchens is powerful and should make any believer think. And no, Gryphen, you're not missing something. The people who believe without question are missing a whole big beautiful world out there.
ReplyDeletePerhaps there would be no need for us to seek religion if we would simply be kind to ourselves and kind to one another.
ReplyDeleteOf course, having said that, I think religion boils down to power. Power over others and giving up power to others. The greedy and power-mad exploit will use the fear and guilt religion wields to make believers do whatever is labeled just and in God's name.
Christopher Hitchens is a very frightened individual, and always has been. Now more than ever, I expect.
ReplyDeleteI have known people who ascribe to the "Brights" philosophy - Hitchens may be one himself - and they are some of the most lost and empty people I have ever met, though they do seem very pleased with their intellectual acumen. I feel very sorry for them, actually, and it isn't because I think they should give up their critical faculties and accept the existence of God unconditionally.
Much of Hitchen's grievances and questioning have to do with organized religion, yet he always tends to blur that into arguments about God vs. Nature - as if some creative force couldn't possibly be behind the big bang that started everything, or behind science and evolution.
He insists God takes sides in war and history, when it is people who have done that, flawed human beings. He also blames God for sexism, guilt, disease, on and on.
Maybe God has nothing to do with any of that. Maybe God is waiting for us to figure that out. Maybe God isn't interested in our critical faculties and logic and control.
God is love. Plain and simple. The awesome reality of our universe and the beauty of life - in spite of the horror and injustice and suffering - is undeniable. One can chose to reduce our human experience to sheer biology, but that is so limited, so narrow, so cold.
I frankly think to insist that human beings be able to quantify God is pure folly. And entirely without imagination. Where would we all be without that?
I believe that religion and science both evolved, as it were, from the basic quest for knowledge.
ReplyDeleteEarly religions solved the mysteries, offered answers for that which was, as yet, unfathomable. As humans evolved, science evolved. Knowledge evolved.
But religion had taken root, and so its tradition, its appeal to the spiritual, still unsolved mysteries transformed it from the quest for knowledge to the certainty of that which cannot be tested, cannot be subjected to the scientific method.
That's why it is so absurd to dismiss scientific evidence, such as evolution, in favor of the primitive beliefs of an age that had yet to discover what science has taught us.
So my belief is that science and religion were both borne of the desire to understand. And the more that we do learn and understand, the more difficult it is to justify that kind of belief that is unsupported by fact or reason.
It goes without saying that people like Sarah Palin are the very antithesis of true believers.
ReplyDeleteIt is deeply troubling that so many are so quick to assume that those of us with faith share anything with someone like her, or the "bankers" (so all banker are evil, now?) or hypocrites.
So kind of people to resist looking down on those of us who may believe there is a higher power.
The ugliness of the world is not an argument against the existence of God. That's just too simplistic, too easy. That's an instance of people expecting God to rescue everyone, to do all the work for them - and that's exactly what Hitchens is criticizing in organized religion, though for the opposite viewpoint. You can't have it both ways.
And this is why we love you, Gryph.
ReplyDeleteExcellent, well articulated post. Thank you.
~Pogo.
California dreaming, you and I are in agreement.
ReplyDeleteIn my humble opinion the spiritual journey is vastly important to our sense of selves, but when certain religions provide us with the a blueprint that we are warned not to stray from, it essentially prevents, or stunts, our ability to find our own spiritual truth.
In other words, if a person were allowed to grow up in a religiously neutral environment, and then choose for themselves what they believed, or what they did not believe, can you imagine how much more fulfilling such a choice would be?
That is why when asked which "religion" I would pick if provided no choice but to do so, I say I would be a Taoist. To the Taoist the journey is the most important thing, not the destination.
That is a philosophy that matches my personality and critical thinking skills far better than say Christianity, Judaism, or Islam.
I am a person of faith, and I also love (thrive on) critical thinking and work in the world of science. Each of these is integral to my life - each gives my life meaning. I see no contradictions in embracing each. I found Christopher Hitchens interesting, but also bitter and, to me, unpersuasive. I don't think I could hang around this guy for very long.
ReplyDeleteThe "surrender of critical faculties" is found just as fully in the atheist who refuses to exercise reason to distinguish between varieties of religion just as much as it is in the fundamentalist who refuses to exercise reason in regard to his/her own religion. There are rich, life-affirming, and (even) humanistic forms of religion in most major traditions, just as there are life-denying, irrational, and hateful forms. Religion -- even atheistic forms -- are essential to our humanness, since it is the means by which we give sense and meaning to the world. Ultimately, we all choose the myths which define our worlds. (I use "myth" not as that which is untrue, but that which is meaning-generative, a la Ricoeur.) I choose to live by a myth that promises the world is at heart redemptive, and which calls me to participate in that project of redemption.
ReplyDeletePeople who believe absurdities will commit atrocities.
ReplyDeleteFood for thought. I agree with Anonymous @6:44. I think Hitchens' and your problem is with organized religion, with which I also have trouble. However, there can be spirituality within and without organized religion.
ReplyDeleteSpirituality has been a part of every society/culture for thousands of years, and is a valuable and important belief system. There are many belief systems, which have performed various functions for human beings over the ages. Science is another belief system. Western science can describe and explain many phenomena; it cannot explain in scientific terms the "life force" that flows within all living beings, and distinguishes those living beings from inanimate objects. This life force cannot be quantified, and when it is gone, we are dead, our bodies no longer holding the life force energy, or "spirit", without which we are simply inert matter.
Spirituality can be a science as well, attempting to describe the life force. Its ties to quantum physics have been discussed and described in the Tao of Physics, by Fritjof Capra (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tao_of_Physics)
Although organized religion and its rigid tenets, proscriptions, and prohibitions may present many problems for many of us, spirituality is a valid concept not to be dismissed too/so lightly.
thanks for posting this gryphen! I watched the first clip and look forward to watching the rest. so glad to see hitchens is as sharp as ever - just last week it occurred to me that we had not heard anything from him in a while, and I was hoping that didn't mean bad news. well!! based on that video I'd say he will be with us for a while longer. good! yes he can be pompous but the man is brilliant. his opening statement is certainly something that would prompt consideration from thinking people.
ReplyDeleteI'm off to watch the rest.
Hitchins is arguing almost entirely against Christianity and does not seem to notice that. Much of the Christian story is indeed ridiculous and pernicious. But there really is a whole world of spirituality available which does not include a lot of nonsense. The God Hitchins argues against is a caricature. So what he is really saying is, "C'mon people, how can you believe in such a ridiculous God with such a dismal plan?"
ReplyDeleteAnd that really has little to do with the secrets of our universe, and consciousness, God and soul.
I have a real difficult time excepting anything coming from books written before microbiology was discovered! I also find that the 3 main religious books all seem to not realize that there was no southern hemisphere!
ReplyDeletetrrh
Very interesting post, Gryph. I have a lot of trouble with Hitchens opening arguments because they focus on the beliefs of organized religions, not belief in God as a Supreme Being. I suppose I'm an agnostic; I believe there is an overarching Being who started the Universe and watched it bloom and flourish. What an amazing creation that evolved from one thing to another, produced astounding beauty and gravid bounty, but also created mistrust, then lies and hatred and finally war. I'm conflicted as to what this means in terms of whether or not there is an afterlife, but I'm convinced that some enlightened hand started it all and has left us alone since then to do with it what we will. I'd like to find a community of like-minded thinkers and am leaning toward joining a Unitarian Church for the camaraderie and good works. That's the best purpose of organized religion IMHO.
ReplyDelete~physicsmom
I would like to say that for me after a terrible, inexplicable, sudden death of a child in my family, I was forced to do quite a bit of thinking and struggling with this issue. It took me a very long time to discover the answer for me. An answer that I can live with without any reservation.
ReplyDeleteWe can and should use our reason to sort out the facts and come to a conclusion that is right for each of us. But it is very possible that when life deals us the ultimate test, we might see things differently.
Powerful words -
ReplyDeleteIn the name of God Almighty & Religion, man has promoted persecution & suffering across centuries. Be it by sacrifice, hatred of "others", destruction of cities, genocide, untold wars, millions killed, maimed and orphaned, along with multitudes of other atrocities.
This is not what a Loving, Accepting God would want shown as His marketability today.
When one person suffers from a delusion it is called insanity; when many people suffer from a delusion it is called religion."
- Robert Pirsig (1948-)
I am not an athiest but I do agree with what he said.
ReplyDeleteThe God that Christianty teaches is a classic dysfunctional human father. Any father that needs, for their egos sake for babys to bebor in such excessive numers that millions live and die in semistarvation plus our massive numbers are destroying the beauty and livability of the earth, any such father is dysfunctional and heartless.
So why does an diety have human failings?
Why are we so dependant on the antique myths of the Bible, or any other religious book, that was written in the days of ghose, gobblins, dragons and deamons? Is God not capable of being accessible to modern man?
My problem is that the God I think exists, a modern Father of Christ, does not exist in any religion I have every come in contact with, and I am not arrogant enough to assume I alone have figured out the right balance of modernity and faith.
Bravo Christopher Hitchens!
ReplyDeleteBravo Gryphen! What a great post. I wish I had time to write more though I wouldn't even know where to start and how to keep myself from getting all upset and angry.:-) This is a topic I discuss a lot with my kids, and I completely agree with what Hitchens said, and with your comments.
The Dude Abides said:
ReplyDelete"Religion -- even atheistic forms -- are essential to our humanness, since it is the means by which we give sense and meaning to the world."
----------------------------------------
As an Atheist, I am totally confused as to your statement. What kind of "atheistic forms of Religion" are you talking about?
I do not believe in any form of religion. I always thought that the word atheist meant "without religion".
Christopher Hitchens isn't the most lovable Atheist, but I have always agreed with most of his statements. bt
Great post.
ReplyDeleteGreat comment thread.
Great God!
I'm not a religious person, but sometimes have to go into churches to perform or to speak. Back in 2005, at one of the times I was asked to address the Anchorage Unitarian Universalist Fellowship, someone asked what the closest belief system out there is with which I might identify. I explained the precepts of a simple book, The Kybalion, published a little over 100 years ago. I went through the precepts in detail.
After my talk, taken by what they had heard, some of the people who had listened met me out in the parking lot, asking if I was interested in starting a church based on the precepts laid out in the book. I'm glad I told them "no."
Science is what we understand, and that understanding grows through knowledge. "God" is what we don't understand, and as science grows, and asks its questions, more light is shed on new areas, so what might be "God" also grows.
Any religion that fails to understand the important role of science in teaching us more about what "God" might be doesn't deserve to claim a relationship with wisdom, spirituality or sanctity.
I lost my faith when I could no longer follow the tenets of my religion. This does not mean I lost my belief in a higher being. I do, however have much difficulty in proving that which is not to be proven and I live with a man who thinks I am slightly off the path to even try.
ReplyDeleteIn times of saddness I find comfort in walking into a Christian Church - it lets one look for a non existant solution.
If I am truthful - I am an athiest - I find Mr Hitchens interesting - but can accept that some folks find peace in their religion.
It is always harder to be an adult than a child. It is a let-down to find out that Santa doesn't really come at Christmas with gifts, that Jesus had a mother and a father, that priests are not holier than anyone else, and that as you go through life, and actively strive to make sense of it all, more and more, we find out that we are all that we have--we are all that there is--we are the ones who must find or create the meaning in our lives. We are all in this together, and we will not be 'rescued' by a parent God who is awaiting our call for help. We all must grow up, and care for each other.
ReplyDeleteWe are God to each other, and we are all part of God.
"I am That, you are That, and all this is That".
Thanks for the post, Gryphen.
... always said that one has to be really strong spiritually to withstand organized religion.
ReplyDeleteIt's so validating to read that i'm not a lone observer.
anon at 6:51 said....
ReplyDelete"So kind of people to resist looking down on those of us who may believe there is a higher power.".
My mother spent her lifetime faithful & dedicated to a higher power & her church...she was unshakable and I always respected her choice till her end at 98 yrs old.
She gave me the gift of choice with unconditional love no matter that I didn't follow her path.
She overcame many hardships and sorrows and when alzheimers took her away from me for the last 11 years of her life, I cried mostly when I had to beg her Church to send a priest to visit & that only happened 3 or 4 times. Sadly they continued to forward donation envelopes to her.
She believed in a 'higher power' & that it was every where & especially in her church. It was what she needed in order to keep going.
Bottom line is that we respected one another's choices, had open conversations about them and still lived in harmony.
You Can have it both ways!...as long as there's mutual respect in not trying to dominate control.
Great post Gryph.
ReplyDeleteThanks for the break from endless....anyhow.
I am at peace with my understanding.
Being in the moment is the answer to the question.
Though i admit i am at ends to deal with those who choose to rule those who no not better.
Do good be good is the whole of the law.
Anonymous 8:33 pm. I think the belief system you are describing is called deism.
ReplyDeleteIn a fun coincidence, this morning before I saw this post, I watched Bill Maher's RELIGULOUS for the first time.
ReplyDeleteHighly recommended.
- Steam Fangs Palin
Must say that was nicely stated - I am wiccan\pagan, however I know that "myths" are myths and not fact but rather ways to explain the unexplainable and the ways of nature, tales to help explain the universe through symbology - the only law in wicca is to harm none, respect for all people and nature are its foundation - I accept that there are things we can not explain yet by science (such as the health benefits of qi gong; possibility that the energy of the spirit continues to exist after death) - I question everything and enjoy exploring all possibilities but facts, science, and reality are how I make decisions and I'm also perfectly comfortable with the idea that I could be wrong and perhaps there is nothing death.
ReplyDeleteThere are benefits to organized religion - such as a sense of community and helping others, but the harm it has done in the past and the abuse that has come out of it over the past centuries and the manipulation and deaths caused by blind faith for me any way far out weigh the benefits.
At positive kernel within all religions is the human spirit and bringing the positive energy of the human spirit into the physical - it doesn't matter what words, traditions or practices are used to express that - what becomes harmful is when humans use fear and manipulation to control others and begin to think they are the only ones with the answers and they have the right to force that others - that is when it is no longer a religion and becomes a dictatorship.
If you haven't seen it Bill Maher's movie Religulous says it all very well too.
I think you should be proud to be a critical thinker, Gryp because those of us who are can understand aspects of religion that the Believers cannot.
ReplyDeleteA large part of why people believe is because it makes them feel good. Let’s face it, we’re earth-bound beings with pain receptors. For the short time we’re here, it makes sense to feel as good as we can and minimize the pain. (Which is why things like drugs, sex, food, and religion are so addictive).
Yesterday I had a conversation with my neighbor, who is Lutheran. I asked her what being Lutheran was about. She explained that Lutherans broke away from the Catholic Church because they didn’t want to be told what to do and wanted to learn straight from the bible. Lutheran’s don’t pray to saints, or have confession boxes. I said, that’s great but you’re NOT reading the bible, you’re listening to a preacher tell you what to do, just like the Pope used to do. And frankly, the confession boxes are comforting to the Catholics, I told her. She said, well it’s all about Jesus with us. I said, really because it seems to be all about the Old Testament. We also talked about folks who fall on the floor and speak in tongues. “Oh, that’s crazy” she said. But why is it crazy, if it makes them feel good. What’s the difference? It’s something the Believers don’t seem to have the capacity to understand, because they’re clinging to a right way, or best way, or holier way. They lose sight of why it is they practice religion in the first place.
..."Is God not capable of being accessible to modern man?"
ReplyDeleteSome good comments in your post, Anon. And this question you pose is something in particular I find interesting. Yes, we do rely on the books of ancient days, and it seems surprising that there is not a modern God. Our ancient cultures threw off older gods, adopted new beliefs. We have not done that. We are still clinging to the books of the desert, the angry God of the desert.
While I often wonder why Islam has not had a reformation the way that the other 2 have,..maybe I should be asking why Christianity has not had ANOTHER reformation, or two, or three?
Why has religion not evolved?
I know what you are missing. It is easier for people to put faith in some deity than it is to use reason and work to find out things.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous @6:44, you must not have read the same Bible as I did.
ReplyDeleteIn the Bible I had read, we are supposed to sing with joy about thousands of Egyptian babies getting their brains dashed out against rocks.
We are supposed to root for Samson, who God has casually kill a bunch of random Persians, IIRC, so that he can steal their clothes.
etc., etc.
And don't forget that after the God character's having intentionally exterminated virtually all of humanity once before, we're to look forward, ecstatically, to that treatment again!!
After a lovely Thanksgiving during which my "born-again" sister confirmed her secure knowledge that I would physically, materially, burn for all eternity in a real, actual LAKE OF FIRE (if I didn't join her crazy Rapture-Ready church)—this being not only the ABSOLUTE TRUTH but PROOF OF GOD'S LOVE—well… any "loving God" argument has come to fall a little flat with me, at least as regards the ‘God’ character of the Judeo-Christians.
not exactly following this
ReplyDelete"Once you assume a creator and a plan, it makes us objects, in a cruel experiment, whereby we are created sick, and commanded to be well. I'll repeat that. Created sick, and then ordered to be well."
I got the "objects" part ..but the rest. Not sure why he assumes the worst.
MY take :D on believing their "isn't" a creator..
reduces us to just scientific "objects"
Our brains (emotions/feelings,ect) are nothing more than electric sparks.
If I lived believing that my feelings were nothing more than sparks gone wild.. I, honestly, would of ended my life long ago.
I consider myself an atheist and recovering Catholic. I am tolerate of other beliefs. The minute they start to shove it on me all bets are off. I find Christopher abrasive myself but love his talks. That being said the Bible was written by men and is not the greatest book to live by. Whether you believe in God or not. (which one?)
ReplyDeleteIf there is some higher creation then us we are nothing more then an ant farm. ( my belief) How someone can thank God for a job promotion but ignore the fact that so many other prayers go unanswered confuses me.
I just wish those who do believe would entertain the idea that they might not be correct.
ReplyDeleteI think that those who believe have an easier time accepting war and other atrocities because God will sort it out and judge the bad guys and our patriotic soldiers will of course be with Jesus if they are killed in action, so, no ultimate harm done.
I also have trouble with the idea that this deity set up the world as a very unfair test. You have a few years, some only 10, others 98, to find the RIGHT religion or end up in an eternity of hell. As a mother, I would not do that to a child, no matter how bad the child, how could the creator?
ReplyDeleteA kid in the projects kills someone at 13, then is killed. He goes to hell? Did he have a chance? What about the other kid born into a stable religious family, grows up a believer by luck.
You asked what you are missing and I think it is this: Your argument intentionally disregards all the good, humanitarian and brave things that have been done *in the name of* religion. Organized religion is man-made and as such is prey to human fallibility. That doesn't prove there is no God and no higher power that we can tap into to lead us to our best selves. And yes, organized religions have helped people in that search.
ReplyDeleteAlso your argument here would have been more intellectually honest had you posted Blair's remarks as well. This issue can be debated among intelligent people. It doesn't have to be reduced to "atheists vs. deluded dummies."
What annoys me most--and this includes your comments--is the condescension and arrogance in using terms like "bedtime fairy tales," etc.
ReplyDeleteYou can't know what I believe or indeed how I came to believe it. To reduce my faith--born of years of experience and practice--to no more than box mac and cheese for the soul is judgmental and hateful. How is that different than someone denigrating a same sex marriage simply because they don't understand how a guy (girl) could love another guy (girl)?
For a guy who claims to dislike stereotypes and "isms", you do like to trot them out occasionally.
I have never once been asked to turn off my critical thinking skills at my churches. I have never been told how to vote(although our ELCA bishop in AK encouraged us to vote for same sex partner benefits for state employees a few years ago.) I have never been told what to believe. Clearly your tour of religions was incomplete, but generalize away.
Just know that you *are* generalizing, and that always means you're getting something wrong. I'd be the first to admit there's plenty of bad religion out there, however, there's plenty of good stuff too. Just because you've chosen to stop looking doesn't mean it isn't there for someone to find.
The flaw in the atheist's argument, is in the assumption that God set this world up as it is. The Bible tells a different story. One where walking naked while talking with God was the norm… No hunger, no disease, no want… But if we as humans cut down a tree, isn't the consequence that the tree is no longer there ? Are we not to live within the consequences of our own actions ? Even God does that. Who is cruel then, God or us ? We took a beautiful gift and corrupted it, then we cry, there is no God, just look at this place... You won't find God using the scientific method so don't bother to try, He has given us His son Jesus as a way back to finding Him. To the recovering Catholic... let me just say, you won't find Him in the trappings of mankind's institutions either. Don't reject God because you didn't find Him there. Remember, "It is not by works that we are saved", no matter how many "holy days of obligation" we fulfill. You see, it's personal, between you and the Lord. The church is supposed to be a place to share the experiences of your walk with others as an encouragement to them, not a hammer over our heads. How far off the path we've gotten. It's a personal relationship with our Lord … and glorious to those who seek Him.
ReplyDelete~Chris
Those of us who have a faith - and there are more than one of us here by the looks of it - absolutely do not accept war, nor do Christians assume that "all the soldiers will be with Jesus so it's ok".
ReplyDeleteThat is disgusting, essentially reducing our sincere belief system to a gaming system. This is what is so offensive. Most of us will tell you our religion has far more to do with our lives right now than what we hope will happen to us after we die.
I, as a Christian, do not expect every single person to believe what I believe. I believe there are many paths, I do not believe if you sin you are going to a real hell. I think hell is right here, right now, and I think it is mostly in our own hearts and souls.
There are many people of faith in this world, of all different religions and even those who would say they are more spiritual than religious. That is an important distinction that seems to get lost so often in these discussions. Religion is confused with spiritual belief. The two can be very different, as we all can agree. What they have in common, however, is a belief that there is intelligent order to our universe and that there is a basic goodness we can all aspire to.
I am far more skeptical of a set of beliefs based on "Can't see it, can't prove it, show me or else my brilliant mind says it isn't so." The complete arrogance, the total lack of humility, is what amazes me.
Right, it's possible those of us who believe in a higher power aren't "correct". I don't think many of us would pretend to have all the answers with 100% certitude. That's inherent in any belief system, just as it is in an atheist's point of view.
In the meantime, just let us know what you get out of playing God and saying there isn't one. Do you feel you live a more moral life by dismissing the idea that there may be things more powerful than your intellect? Do you live a better life than the vast majority of honest and authentic people of faith? Perhaps so, but you should show some respect for others and stop acting like it's your duty to "take it to the man". There are better ways to use your energy.
So.... you did not read Hitchens' God is not Great yet??? Big mistake... Fantastic book....
ReplyDeleteThere IS a GOD and I know what he wants - thus, the rules that apply to everyone else don't apply to ME.
ReplyDeleteGod is used as a crutch in a thousand different ways whether that is the basis or excuse for harm or for good or whatever. Why do some people think that god is only talking to them? God is not a republican. The grand example of this is the idiot Palin who thinks that god is going to open the door for her presidential run - really? Yet in the very same breath she talks hatred, intolerance, self serving greed. God telling you that too? The bible was written by man supposidly with the word and help of god. The bible's "written words" changed in its early years depending which pope was in power and had the monks write and edit the works as needed. Before the invention of the printing press the hand written bibles varied from book to book verse to verse. Changing god's words for self interests - is that any different with idiots like Palin who pick and chose what god is telling them - using the words as a crutch for your own self interests. Jesus was a socialist - help the poor, fed the hungery, heal the sick - why do so many that seem to have god talking to them not listen to jesus?
ReplyDeleteGryphen~
ReplyDeleteI am not of ANY organized religion or church. In fact, I don't believe any of them has got it right. Especially the religious right. Religion is ALL man made. It was created in order to control the masses and put people into fear. Hitchens did a great job arguing that fact.
But I believe in God. People don't get it. Jesus tried to make them understand and they just did not get it. Think about it. Jesus did not start any kind of religion or church. As a matter of fact, he was repulsed by the church of his time. It was MAN who started it all.
I really believe that if you just do the right thing, treat others as you would want to be treated, look out for each other, brother/sisterhood of wo/man, just basic decency as a human being, then everything will be alright. The problem is that there are too many greedy, selfish, power mongering humans in this world. We could achieve great things, but there are too many people who only care about themselves and/or the almighty dollar.
I respect all other people's beliefs. Everyone has the right to believe in what they want to. This is another thing about organized religion that makes me crazy! They always seem to think if you don't do as they say, you will burn in hell. I don't believe there is a hell. Life here on Earth is hell for too many people already. But if believing in God comforts people who have a horrible life, then that's okay. As long as they don't push it onto others. Just like Jesus told his Apostles. He said to try and teach, not force, what God wants. He also said that if they were rejected to brush the dirt from their feet and move on.
At 3:13am, Lidia said...
ReplyDeleteAfter a lovely Thanksgiving during which my "born-again" sister confirmed her secure knowledge that I would physically, materially, burn for all eternity in a real, actual LAKE OF FIRE (if I didn't join her crazy Rapture-Ready church)—this being not only the ABSOLUTE TRUTH but PROOF OF GOD'S LOVE—well… any "loving God" argument has come to fall a little flat with me, at least as regards the ‘God’ character of the Judeo-Christians.
To which I'll comment that I recently saw someone refer to Judaism, Christianity, and Islam as the "Axis of Evil". Add in Mormonism and I'd agree...
At 6:17am, Chris said...
ReplyDeleteThe flaw in the atheist's argument, is in the assumption that God set this world up as it is. The Bible tells a different story. One where walking naked while talking with God was the norm… No hunger, no disease, no want…
If that story were true, Adam wouldn't have been born with nipples or a belly button. And lions would have been able to digest grasses. Simply absurd.
I am so struck by what appears to be a correlation between Palin-haters and those who are not just suspicious of religion but seem downright hostile. I see it so frequently on all of these sites. It's interesting.
ReplyDeleteI would suggest sorting these two matters out.
Sarah is not a true example of a devout, practicing person.
I ask that the least people can do is not judge my particular faith by her. It's just not fair.
And I won't judge atheists by Christopher H, then ;-).
To Anonymous @ 6:01am--I have to agree with you about the stereotypes and generalizations.
ReplyDeleteThis has been said so many times, though it doesn't seem to matter:
ReplyDeletePeople do make a significant error when they make the mistake of equating all religions with their most extreme manifestations - religious fundamentalism.
Fundamentalism says only the believer is right, all others are wrong. (I daresay religion isn't the only arena for this mentality.)
There are many progressive and tolerant faith practices going on all over the world, in every religious denomination. The primary idea and goal is living in peace and harmony with others, respecting differences, helping one another, non-judgement.
The kinds of characterizations being held up as representative of religion in general - talk about fire and brimstone, judgement day, hell and damnation, intolerance and hatred - well, that just isn't a part of many mainstream religious practices today (nevermind what the TV tells you), whether they be Jewish, Christian, Islamic, Buddhist, Hindu - take your pick.
I feel like some critics' exposure is rather narrow, and perhaps even out-dated. I am sorry they haven't experienced, even peripherally through observation, the type of modern day progressive religious life I have described above.
The Assembly of God up in Wasilla, while not entirely unheard of in conservative Christian religious life, is basically not mainstream. I am pretty sure one could research statistics on this.
My faith had been wavering for several years, but what pushed me over the brink, however, was Gryphen's posting on Witch Children in Africa. How "A Merciful God" would stand by and let little children be called Witches and be tortured by Evangelical Pastors did it for me. If he is All Powerful, why does he let these atrocities happen, in his name, to these littlest ones?
ReplyDelete"In my opinion, and please feel free to disagree with me, the very idea of choosing belief over reason seems to be the denying of that which makes us human. After all isn't it this amazing intellect of ours which has allowed us to elevate ourselves out of the day to day fight for survival which defines the life of the creatures to whom we feel so superior?"
ReplyDeleteAnthropologically, "that which makes us human" is as much faith as it is reason. Not faith in a god or gods, necessarily, but faith in the unseen -- burying the dead with food, tools and vessels, for example, demonstrating a belief in some form of life after death, something "seen" only in dreams and apparitions. Chimpanzees can use tools, and a couple of them have been taught some rudimentary sign language. They may grieve for the dead, as do many other species, but they have no intimations of immortality. You can say religion is purely the product of human imagination with no reality "out there" behind it -- but it is undeniably part of what makes us human.
Although I appreciate where you're coming from, think twice before you decide the world would be better without religion. Religion has indeed collaborated with human aggression and will-to-power, but without religion these will not go away. If a person believes there is nothing beyond his or her life in the here and now, why should he or she risk torture or death to save someone else? If a profoundly retarded child, or brain-damaged adult, will not be a rational, "productive" member of society, why should society provide him or her with the resources to continue living?
It seems to me that a belief in the inherent value of human life as such is necessarily "religious." It is not necessarily Judeo-Christian; nevertheless, because for most Westerners it hangs on the Judeo-Christian peg of man created in the image of God, I would not tear down Judeo-Christian religion, lest it be replaced with a religion (and there will always be a replacement) that has no place to hang it -- Nazism and Communism, being good examples.
Anonymous @3:55 said...
ReplyDeletenot exactly following this … Created sick, and then ordered to be well."
This is exactly what my born-again sister believes: we are all grievous, filthy, rotten sinners—sick and broken, unworthy of life—and that we need God/Jesus to fix/redeem us, or else.
John Calvin, I believe, called newborn babies "seething sacks of sin".
No explanation of why God would choose to create seething sacks of sin in the first place, and then proceed to do nothing but torture and toy with them for millennia, if he is supposed to be so loving.
However, it's a brilliant marketing scheme: Create a Need ( Pop-Tart Holder; Chia Pet; Salvation After Death; Motorized Ice Cream Cone) and then Fill It.
Anon @ 5:41
Your argument intentionally disregards all the good, humanitarian and brave things that have been done *in the name of* religion.
I don't think that's so any more than the most vocal Christianists intentionally disregard the humanitarian things done by secular societies, individuals and organizations. They maintain that there is no *earthly* reason I should help my neighbor, and that I can only be either bribed by the hope of heaven or terrified of the flames of hell.
Religious organizations do effect some good, but I find that to be In Spite Of, rather than Because Of their holy intentions many times. I recently worked on a book about the Vatican trying to 'save' the Armenians from genocide after WWI, and I can tell you that what they were equally interested in was capturing "market share" away from the Eastern Orthodox church. Because if you're gonna die, it's important to die in the "correct" religion, I guess.
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What I find funny is that Religionists seem to have a hard time imagining that an atheist can have any morals whatsoever. In my experience, many religionists assume that everyone would be off pillaging, raping and murdering every waking hour of the day if the God character were not there in the Bible to tell them not to. I guess they can't trust themselves not to be evil?
But STRANGE AS IT MAY SEEM, I don't actually find it hard at all to go through the day NOT betraying my husband, NOT stealing, NOT killing, NOT perpetrating sexual abuse, NOT envying to any great extent what other people have, etc. And not just because someone orders me not to, amazingly enough… It's just because I don't want to do those things, as I think most healthy people don't want to, either. Which brings me to wonder what extent the desire to steal, kill and abuse is actually bolstered by religious identification, rather than suppressed by it.
Maybe it is a chicken/egg situation, but the upshot is that my sister will support Ted Haggard and Tom DeLay and Sarah Palin and Sanford and Vitter and Ensign in their continued sociopathic behavior, just because they claim membership in the "Born-Again Christian" club and thus feel they have dibs on forgiveness and will be tolerated in endless moral lapses and relapses… whereas non-Club-members like Ghandi or the Dalai Lama, are destined to fry in Hell. Go figure!
Anon @ 5:41
ReplyDeleteYour argument intentionally disregards all the good, humanitarian and brave things that have been done *in the name of* religion.
I don't think that's so any more than the most vocal Christianists intentionally disregard the humanitarian things done by secular societies, individuals and organizations. They maintain that there is no *earthly* reason I would want to help my neighbor, other than being bribed by the hope of heaven or being terrified of the flames of hell.
Religious organizations do effect some good, but I find that to be In Spite Of, rather than Because Of their holy intentions many times. I recently worked on a book about the Vatican trying to 'save' the Armenians from genocide after WWI, and I can tell you that what they were equally interested in was capturing "market share" away from the Eastern Orthodox church. (Because if you're gonna die, it's important to die in the "correct" religion, I guess.)
Along similar lines, my sister prays daily for a church member who is on a paid mission to France (nice job, huh?) because Paris has a critical emergency undersupply of Protestant evangelicals!! Who knew? I think the next "mission" will be to Acapulco!!
Oy veh.
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What's particularly remarkable to me is that Religionists seem to have a hard time imagining that an atheist can have any morals whatsoever. In my experience, many religionists assume that everyone would be off pillaging, raping and murdering every waking hour of the day if the God character were not there in the Bible to tell them not to.
But STRANGE AS IT MAY SEEM, I don't actually find it hard at all to go through the day NOT betraying my husband, NOT stealing, NOT killing, NOT perpetrating sexual abuse, NOT envying to any great extent what other people have, etc. Not because someone orders me not to, amazingly enough… It's just because I don't want to do those things, as I think most healthy people don't want to, either. Which brings me to wonder to what extent the desire to steal, kill and abuse is actually bolstered by religious identification, rather than suppressed by it.
Maybe it is a chicken/egg situation, but the upshot is that my sister will support Ted Haggard and Tom DeLay and Sarah Palin and Sanford and Vitter and Ensign in their continued sociopathic behavior, just because they claim membership in the "Born-Again Christian" club and thus feel they have dibs on forgiveness and will be tolerated in endless moral lapses and relapses… whereas non-Club-members like Ghandi or the Dalai Lama, are destined to fry in Hell. Go figure!
Anon @ 5:41
ReplyDeleteYour argument intentionally disregards all the good, humanitarian and brave things that have been done *in the name of* religion.
I don't think that's so any more than the most vocal Christianists intentionally disregard the humanitarian things done by secular societies, individuals and organizations. They maintain that there's no *earthly* reason I would want to help my neighbor, other than being bribed by the hope of heaven or being terrified of the flames of hell.
Religious organizations do some good, but I find that to be In Spite Of, rather than Because Of their holy intentions.
What's particularly remarkable to me is that Religionists seem to have a hard time imagining that an atheist can have any morals whatsoever. In my experience, many religionists assume that everyone would be off pillaging, raping and murdering every waking hour of the day if some supernatural character were not there to tell them not to.
But STRANGE AS IT MAY SEEM, I don't find it hard at all to go through the day NOT betraying my husband, NOT stealing, NOT killing, NOT perpetrating sexual abuse, NOT envying to any great extent what other people have, etc. Not because someone orders me not to, amazingly enough… It's just because I don't want to do those things, just as I think most healthy people don't want to, either. Which brings me to wonder to what extent the desire to steal, kill and abuse is actually bolstered by religious identification, rather than suppressed by it.
Maybe it is a chicken/egg situation, but the upshot is that my sister will support Ted Haggard and Tom DeLay and Sarah Palin and Sanford and Vitter and Ensign in their continued sociopathic behavior, just because they claim membership in a certain religious Club and thus feel they have dibs on forgiveness and will be tolerated in endless moral lapses and relapses… whereas non-Club-members like Ghandi or the Dalai Lama, are destined to fry in Hell. Go figure!
OOPS. Sorry for the multiple posts. I kept getting error messages so I kept re-editing to make the comment shorter until the last version seemed to go through. I didn't realize all the others had gone through, too!
ReplyDeleteSigned,
-Wordy Atheist
@Anonymous 9:42 pm:
ReplyDeleteAtheism is not the opposite of religion, although some forms of Atheism are (ironically) dogmatically anti-religious. One of the best definitions of religion was offered by Yale post-liberal theologian George Lindbeck in *The Nature of Doctrine*: "Religion does not refer to belief in 'God' or a transcendent Absolute, but rather to 'a kind of cultural and/or linguistic framework or medium that shapes the entirety of life and thought ... it is similar to an idiom that makes possible the description of realities, the formulation of beliefs, and the experiencing of inner attitudes, feelings, and sentiments.'” By this definition, Atheism is a form of religion. And, in my experience, Atheists are just as prone to intolerance as are Theists.
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"Conventionality is not morality. Self-righteousness is not religion. To attack the first is not to assail the last." -- Charlotte Bronte, preface to 2nd ed. of Jane Eyre
I have wanted to post something like this on my website and this gave me an idea. Cheers.
ReplyDeletei enjoy exactly how you receive your level throughout
ReplyDelete