Creation tours of the Denver zoo.
"Biblically correct" tours of the the Denver Museum of Nature and Science.
Look I am fine with people having faith in their God, whichever that God that may be. BUT when you take impressionable young children and tell them that thousands of years of scientific research is completely incorrect, because it refutes the Biblical story of creation, then I find your religion harmful. Not just to these children, but to the country as a whole.
And again if a church, synagogue, temple, or shrine wishes to teach their followers a "faith based" story of creation, or stories that teach and support their ideas of morality, they have my blessing. But when that same "faith based" approach is used to refute science and reality, then doesn't that step over a line?
I mean as Americans don't we ALL want our children to be well educated and able to compete in in a global market? But how can we expect to educate our children effectively if they are taught not to trust science?
I am interested in your thoughts. And thanks to the anonymous commenter who sent these videos to me. Of course they drove me nuts and I HAD to share them.
oh fer phucks sakes,,, are these people insane?
ReplyDeletei could go on,,,,,
bill in belize
I let my children grow and never pushed my non belief on them. My son is a Christian and my daughter an atheist. My grandson is able to ask questions and I answer them to his level of understanding. Or I ask what the thinks.
ReplyDeleteThis is why American is lagging behind in the education department. These kids will not be able to compete in the real world.
Richard Dawkins certainly agrees that it is, and I'm inclined to concur.
ReplyDeleteI think the "earth is 6K years old" theory is from the evangelicals, specifically dominionists.
ReplyDeleteSo let me get this straight... when I pet my bull dog this is how God intended a wolf to really look like?
ReplyDeleteOr perhaps I should saddle up my Dinosaur and go out for a spin with the smaller littler people that once walked the earth even a few hundred years ago?
Oh man I have a BONE to pick with these bible thumpers!
Hehehehe - can't wait to run into one of these groups at a museum near me - public place, freedom of speech = Fun times.
ReplyDeleteNot sure why these idiots would come into a museum to do this, anyway. Like the one curator said - way too much evidence to get a kid thinking.
It's like Karl Marx said (and Karl Rove exploits): "Religion is the opium of the people."
ReplyDeleteI don't understand how we can see how wrong religious zealots are in other countries but can turn a blind eye to our own faith. Religion is a guide to the way we live. It is not meant to be literal. Read the Bible, the Koran, The Book of Morman... whatever you wish to follow. Those are parables and guides not literal laws to follow.
How do we wish God to judge us? Literally, or with compassion and understanding, taking into consideration our circumstances and the lessons we have learned through time?
God gave us science to combat disease, take man to the moon, and make our lives easier. We should thank him rather than use his name in vain for our own agendas.
Did Noah take dinosaurs on the ark with him? We know the unicorns were left behind. But the creationists and the monkeys made it on board, and their offspring are with us today.
ReplyDeleteI'm with you Gryph, insanity. But Sarah saw a human footprint inside a dino print so they must've coexisted. Ha!
ReplyDeleteThis is our "home" zoo and it is a very nice one.
ReplyDeleteI hope the gorillas threw shit at them.
When my children were young I felt guilty NOT inculcating them with the biblical stories - because I thought how will they be able to discern the bs if they don't have the references?
ReplyDeleteI did teach them how to find the references, later, when they were older and could question. "Question authority," you know what I mean if you've ever been attacked by someone who thinks there is only one answer and that is the Jewish-Christian interpretation of the world.
I've had home-schooled Christianist kids in my college classes. They're really good at following directions to a "t". Just don't challenge them with any kind of out of the box thinking. They'd make great last-century factory workers (push the red button with your left hand) but they'll never survive in a job that requires critical thinking.
ReplyDeleteThe "young earth" creationists have always been around. I don't believe it, there's lots of evidence to refute it. However, calling this child abuse is hyperbole. It's a belief, one that isn't shared by most people, but just a belief.
ReplyDeleteWe have a wonderful zoo and a fantastic interactive Museum of Nature and Science- and curators and visitors are very tolerant (if not saddened) by these tours. Most originate out of Colorado Springs, home of Focus on the Family and other related groups.
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure I'd expose the home schoolers to these exhibits- too much to think about...
CO almost Native
I think it explains a lot of what has gone wrong with this country!
ReplyDeleteAt a National Park this summer, my hubby and I overheard a woman tell her 6 or something year old son "Because God made it that way" in response to his question about a glacial erratic that was visible on the trail. I whipped my head around and said to the little boy, "hey little guy, great question! That big rock was carried here by a moving glacier during one of the many ice ages our planet has experienced. Isn't it neat that the moving ice could do that?", with glee. The mom glared at me with a "how dare you" look. I smiled at her, turned around and moved along on my merry way with great and smug satisfaction that I had planted a seed in that little kid's mind. I hope he goes on to study science and become a world famous geophysicist.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.infidels.org/
ReplyDeleteHere's a great site for the like minded and sane.
You know, I could have laughed at this, but then I thought I saw my sister-in-law on one of these:( Wasn't her, but it could have been. Homeschooling my nieces and nephews because God isn't in the public schools. Already can't stand to be around the oldest girl cause she "ministers" to everyone, all the time. Natural curiosity doesn't exist in their home. Sad, sad, sad.
ReplyDeleteI'm sorry, Gryphen, but I cannot tolerate such idiocy. So a flooring guy knows so much he can deny many fields of science? It's too bad God didn't give instructions on how to use their brains. Thank you for the review so we didn't have to.
ReplyDeleteYes, this is really tough. But one of the hallmarks of "the American way" is that we learn to tolerate each other's particular craziness.
ReplyDeleteTry to count on what happens to many people of normal intelligence who ultimately encounter the world as adults. They "lose" their "faith." That is, some--some, probably most--religious teachings don't hold up to real life.
Some people become life-long searchers, some retreat into the nuttiness they learned as children, some give it up altogether, some putter in and out of various other versions of religious practice.
The worrisome thing is the "home school" movement which isolates children of very diverse backgrounds from each other at an early age. But here again, some tolerance is called for. A fair number of homeschooled children do make it to university level education.
For me and mine? Raised Catholic, John Prine provided a good plan in a great song, which title I can no longer remember.
If you were a god creating a world that you love, why wouldn't you make it as flexible and self-protecting as possible, in other words something as simple and elegant as evolution.
ReplyDeleteThe marines have a favorite phrase "Adapt and Overcome," a form of evolution.
What I have never heard is creationist discourse on the length of the days that God was using. Somehow I think they were longer than 24 hours.
Just sayin'. Children need both sides of the issue, but to present it as good and bad is just wrong.
When I was a kid, I was able to separate Sunday School from Science/School. I kinda wonder if other kids do the same.........at Church we believe this but at school we learn this. It worked for me. I loved my folks but kept my beliefs to myself.... I just figured there was a "missing link" between the Cave Man/Dinosaurs and Adam and Eve. Kids have such a ravenous curiosity...and will find the truth.
ReplyDeleteAs an adult, I absolutely loved reading "Clan of the Cave Bear" book series as well as James A. Michener's "The Source".
Some time ago, the school board in Iowa tried to substitute teaching creationism instead of teaching actual, real science. Nebraska may have done the same thing. Reaction in the scientific community was simple. Let those kids from Iowa or Nebraska, who are graduating high school and want to go to college take the SAT's and ACT's along with all of the other kids in the country. Guess who will get stuck in a second rate school in Iowa or Nebraska, and be excluded from a career in medicine, dentistry, science or other academic pursuits. Eventually, a new, more liberal school board was elected, and they changed the "creationism only" rule, realizing that they were short changing their own students.
ReplyDeleteI will make the same argument regarding the Texas School Board's choice of rewriting American History books. Their kids will not do well on SAT or ACT exams, since their concept of American History will be limited. Sorry, Texas kids ain't gonna be goin' to Harvard or Yale or those snooty elite schools, either. There people don't realize that they are cutting off their own noses to spite their faces. They are just making it easier for kids who do get a decent education to have a better shot at the college of their choice.
I volunteer with children who have been in seriously abusive homes where CHIPS petitions have been filed, so I think your title is really an exaggeration. It really minimizes the real abuse children experience. Normally, I'm on Team Gryphen but after the atrocities I've seen done to children, it is really pitiful to compare a museum visit, no matter how inaccurate the history lesson, as child abuse.
ReplyDeleteGrowing up in a conservative midwestern lutheran church (yet not an in your face, up in your business church) I remember to this day when the lightbulb went off for me regarding evolution vs. creationism. I asked my pastor about dinosaurs and how come they aren't mentioned in the bible.He gave me a wonderful answer that, to this day I think is still appropriate. God did both.
ReplyDeleteNow as I have grown and removed myself from organized religion, I realize this is simplistic approach to evolution v creationism, but its a hell of a lot better this the BS these people are pushing. I can only hope these children, when they get older, will have the strength of character to search out the answers to the questions they will eventually start to ask.
I don't know if this is child abuse. I would never want the government to control what parents are allowed to teach their children. I would like to see the U.S. government set required standards for ethics, critical analysis, U.S. history and civics education courses.
ReplyDeleteWe do need to put the religious right in their place. Before any of them even try to impose their faith-based beliefs on others, they need to prove that the Bible is the true word of the supreme, creator God. Then they need to prove that their translation and literal interpretation of it is correct.
Hey, since Glenn Beck has been encouraging them to read Thomas Paine's 'Common Sense' and Sarah Palin opened her latest book with one of his quotes, maybe we should start circulating 'The Age of Reason'.
Article by Michael Ruse on this subject: http://chronicle.com/blogs/brainstorm/noahs-ark-redux/29992
ReplyDeleteHe concludes with: "I weep for America that such a thing can get such active encouragement. And I am frightened, because it is part of an ideology that is taking us all to Armageddon, whether or not Jesus returns to lead the troops."
OT - but is important to say to Rain --- beautiful hair! You simply glow with inner light. Plus, our family likes your comment. It does explain a lot of what is currently wrong-headed, backward and cruel (okay, I added to your conclusion, but . . . .)
ReplyDeleteI taught middle/high school on a small island with its own school district. It was such a small island that everyone knew everyone. The christers were able to elect one of their own to the school board who promptly tried to get creationism into the science class...the community stopped that. Homescoolers would enroll during high school and those from christer homes tended to be obedient and lacking in both socialization & independent thinking. The homeschoolers coming from secular homes lacked socialization but sure possessed independent thinking skills.
ReplyDeleteJust my experience...the christers steal from their children..they steal the ability to reason. Child abuse.
This is as preposterous as L Ron Hubbard bullshit. It's one thing to believe in the teachings of Christ, right? I mean he was a good guy. He had a good message but believing everything the bible professes to be true is just downright silly. These are the same people that dig in there pockets for hucksters like Sarah Palin and Joe Miller.
ReplyDelete6:14pm "Jesus The MIssing Years"? That Prine song?
ReplyDelete"Jesus was a good guy and he didn't need this shit".
I agree, Gryphen, this is child abuse in the sense that the parents are intentionally hobbling their children's intelligence, curiosity and imagination. They are "retarding" their growth as human beings - limiting the depth and breath of what they could be, narrowing their horizons to such an extent that they indeed be left behind quite literally.
ReplyDeleteThere will always be exceptions - but the home schooled children who truly excel are those whose "teachers" were enlightened and curious people capable of planting seeds of wonder, analytical thought and enthusiasm for the world around them.
Others may make to a university, but often it is a church-based school like Liberty or Oral Roberts where, once again, potentials are tamped down by dogma.
It truly is, as you stated, an act against against the potential of this country because it is limiting a significant percentage of talent. They may take orders well but then again, they also hit a point where they rebel against the constraints placed on them and in their minds and become violent. We've already seen this happen.
I applaud you for an insightful post and hope it helps even one parent reconsider undermining their child's future. Every child deserves to live a full life rich with wonder and insight. Parents who demand strict dogmatic upbringings are truly doing harm to their children by stripping them of their ability to think and at some point in the future risk losing the respect and love of that child.
The more I think about the arrogance involved in the title, the angrier I get. I posted earlier that I work with children in Child Protective Services. While misinformed and ignorant, labeling these museum trips as child abuse sickens me. Abuse is when the bruises are so dark on the face, neck and buttocks of a six year old that the shape of each adult finger could be discerned. Abuse is a physician's report that reveals the evidence that an adult male sexually penetrated a two year old or the X-rays of a child with multiple broken bones due to being thrown down stairs. Abuse is children pulled out of meth homes or homes so filled with squalor that it was hard to discern the roaches from the animal excrement. That is real abuse, Gryphen. I've seen it time and again, and it is very different than what you describe as abuse.
ReplyDeletePlease change the title and remove any reference to child abuse in the story. I really believe it minimizes the pain that real victims of child abuse feel. Please.
Anonymous 6:48, I am not speaking simply of ONE visit to a museum or zoo. I am speaking of constant indoctrination of children that teaches them to mistrust and even despise science because it asks questions that the religious belief of their parents cannot survive.
ReplyDeleteIf you are as you say aware of child abuse, than undoubtedly you are also aware that child abuse is NOT just the physical kind, but also the emotional, mental, and neglectful kind.
These children are being mentally and emotionally damaged in such a way as to cause them great embarrassment and confusion later on in their lives.
So YES I consider this child abuse and I stand by that definition. You are of course free to disagree.
This hits close to home. My very religous younger sister homeschools her 3 kids. The thing I notice the most is they seem to have no idea how to play with other kids. The middle child is ADHD and usually ignores both of his parents. He'll never go on any kind of ADD medicine because they'll fix it with prayer. My parents think he's cute and funny, which he is at 6, but it will get less and less cute as time goes by. It makes me sad that their futures are being compromised. By the way, all of these kids have been taught that dinosaurs are just made up. Sigh...
ReplyDeleteI was at the Long Beach Aquarium with my 4 year old, and we were looking at some beautiful orange jellyfish. A woman said to her son "Look what Jesus made." It kind of pissed me off. Jesus, really? So I went on about evolution and how the see horses nearby had developed and adapted to their environment over millions of years...
ReplyDelete@ 5:41, yes, followed to its logical conclusion, it is child abuse.
ReplyDeleteI disallows the child from thinking critically, and unless there is a job planned for them, it puts them at an unbelievable handicap in being a productive wage earning citizen. By rights, since these idiots also shouldn't use antibiotics, because they don't understand the mechanisms by which they work, or the dangers of using incorrectly - viruses EVOLVE you know.
"The worrisome thing is the "home school" movement which isolates children of very diverse backgrounds from each other at an early age."
ReplyDeleteYet you mention a Catholic education, where children are equally isolated among others who share like religious beliefs. Same thing. Ditto for Christian schools.
The problem, 6:45 p.m is when you have a sham like Patrick Henry or LIberty U and a POTUS like Shrub that put a bunch of them in political positions.
ReplyDeleteOh bs 6:48. If you locked a kid in a room, gave them adequate food and water, but no stimulation - would that be abuse? Same thing. These parents and "tour guide" are teaching these children to distrust their senses - just like an abuser gets the child to believe the parent abuses out of love, as some do.
ReplyDelete"The homeschoolers coming from secular homes lacked socialization but sure possessed independent thinking skills."
ReplyDeleteFunny, I always thinks the former about publicly schooled students.
NO ability to relate to those outside their age group, lack of understanding towards those in their age group, and age inappropriate behavior.
In the latter category, they're much more like the fundy kids with a big dose of apathy thrown in.
7:09 - please go away. You don't get to control the limtis of every word's usage.
ReplyDeleteBut if you are in CPS I really pity your cases - that you do not recognize non-physical abuse is a dereliction of duty. I just hope nobody dies as a result of your dogmatism and ignorance.
You can all relax. The vast majority of American children are being taught to trust in science.
ReplyDeleteReally.
America is lagging behind not because of things like this, but because reading and writing and arithmetic are poorly taught, and parents aren't around enough to reinforce at home.
Btw - God is responsible for science, to most of us who practice mainstream religious faith. We don't think the two ideas are mutually exclusive, nor do we take every word of the Bible literally.
Creationists infiltrating the public school system are a relative rarity, except in certain regions of the country.
I always wonder exactly which of the two contradicting creation stories in Genesis these people believe. It can't be both! Check it out, there are two different myths.
ReplyDeleteWhere do these assholes think our next generation of doctors, medical researchers, and scientists combating nuclear and bacteriologic weapons are going to come from? Science is not some intellectual cafeteria in which you get to pick and choose which facts you like.
ReplyDeleteIt is a forgone conclusion that any field of scientific study will be off the table for their kids, simply because they would never pass the appropriate entrance exams. They are condemning their kids to a minimum of a one to two decades of abject ignorance and superstition - or possibly even a life sentence.
Is it any wonder that our kids are being out performed by children from nearly every other Western democracy in the subjects of math and science? These same folks have also been steadily taking control of school boards - both state and local - and dumbing down curriculum to conform to their batshit crazy paranoia.
It is long past time that we stop indulging these simpletons and see them as the threats to society that they are. If they want to worship their omnipotent sky wizard, good for them and I could care less. When they start pissing around with teaching children - ANYBODY’S children - their collective insanity as fact, they are clear and present dangers to the rest of us.
In our nation’s history, while many people of faith have been tireless advocates for social justice, religion has perpetuated the greatest injustices that our country has ever known. Racism, sexism, ethnic and religious bigotry, and homophobia all have been and/or are perpetuated by religious zealots. Enough already.
To 7:09.
ReplyDeleteAs horrendous as physical abuse is; the body will heal. I will grant you that physical abuse also leads to mental disabilities.
However, brainwashing, and any form of systematic mental abuse (year after year) is just, if not more, abusive.
The offense that you feel maybe due to your lack of experience in other areas of abuse.
A friend of ours lives in a community which has many Latinos who work in agriculture, picking the fruit and vegetables that end up in the supermarket. He realized that the majority of the workers never learned English, nor were they encouraged to learn English. That way, their leaders (who were bilingual) were more powerful, acting as the connection between the Spanish speaking workers and the rest of the community. People would follow whatever the leader said because they were unable to read about local issues for themselves.
ReplyDeleteThe same argument can be made for some religious leaders keeping their followers dependent on them. Think of the control that a powerful leader had in Waco, Texas or Jim Jones, of the Peoples Temple. It is almost cult like, because by keeping the followers limited in their knowledge, they depend on their leaders to tell them what to believe and who to vote for.
When military dictators took over a country (Argentina, Chile, for example) the first people to be rounded up for arrest were the teachers, people who impart education and ideas. There can't be any other line of thinking in a dictatorship. They did the same thing in China during the Cultural Revolution. Teaching only Creationism limits the thinking and the opportunities for the students. They will end up in strict Christian universities because they will not be qualified for any other school. I don't know if that qualifies as abuse; they are exercising total control over what their followers are allowed to think. They become dangerous when they try to inflict their narrow beliefs on others.
There is some BIG right-wing, religious nut-bag money in and around Denver... I know first hand.. I lived there for almost 15 years AND toolin, Tommy Tancrazo was my US Rep. for a while.. That's enough to shake almost every thing loose.
ReplyDeleteNot far to the South of Denver is the home of nut-bag minion James Dobson and his cult - Focus on the Family... WHAT a scam THAT is.. Oh, and don't forget Rev. Haggart that was the leader of the biggest congregation of bible-banging nut jobs west of the texas state line and got interrupted by a gay prostitute and some crazy Crack !!! But don't bother, he's back !!
It's obvious that their influence has buried itself in the Denver subculture and BIG religiosity dollars...
4:56, I think your experience goes to show that people are going to be who they are going to be.
ReplyDelete7:09, I agree with you. There is a huge difference between the abuse you describe and merely being raised in ignorance. One devastates my soul and haunts me; the other merely frustrates me.
ReplyDeleteYes, Gryphen, ignoring science can hamper one's potential, however, except for the Creationists who are also abusers, children reared by Creationist are also being raised with love and the belief that they are worthy humans. Armed with that confidence they can make new choices as adults.
Sadly, children raised with sexual abuse, unspeakable violence and squalor have it hammered into them that they are subhuman and utterly worthless. It takes a miracle indeed to survive that. Our crowded prisons and crime rates are proof.
I think perspective is called for here. I'm no Believer either, but I will not falsely equate the two things.
It may be hyperbolic to describe this as child abuse, but it’s deeply troubling to see children taught that myth is reality, that the results of decades – even centuries – of serious, empirical research among to simply another take on a world view.
ReplyDeleteI noticed the same mirror imaging used to distort that we see SP and other right wing fanatics employ. Thus the circular reasoning of the Bible literalists – ‘It must be true because it’s in the Bible and the Bible is true because it’s God’s word, so it must be true’ – is turned around so it’s the scientific community that relies on circular reasoning. This is similar to the projection of the excesses of the Bush administration onto progressives and the Obama Presidency.
Not to get sidetracked from Gryphen’s question, whether or not this rises to the level of child abuse, it troubles me deeply. Where will society be when there are no common touchstones of agreement. If over three centuries of science is to be brushed aside with ‘That’s just your opinion’, how will society address the problems it faces that require technological solutions. But that’s what these children are being primed to believe.
Individuals have the right, I believe, to expect that the generation of children who follow one will be educated so they know facts and how to think critically. After all, today’s children will be the decision makers, the doctors and teachers and workers when I am old, vulnerable and dependent, to one degree or another, on the collective wisdom of society. To see the deliberate distortion of facts and the subversion of critical thinking so that its tools are twisted disturbs me. The guides mimic using rational thinking by acting as if they are using its tools, so the children are learning to ape the process without relying on fact. What happens when they become doctors or policy makers?
These tours and the attitude expressed by the parents who are home schooling reinforce my wish for more uniform educational standards in the US and my belief that the whole of society – not just parents – have a stake in what knowledge base those standards should represent. I have little patience for parents who feel their right to teach particular religious values supersedes society’s entitlement for an educated citizenry. That’s why I wouldn’t support tax credits for home schooling without rigorous evaluation of the knowledge base being taught.
I can only hope that these groups represent but a small percentage of American students so that their influence is small. Depending on their temperaments, it is to be hoped that most of these children will think their way out of this indoctrination.
Snowy Egret in Salzburg
Anon at 8:28, no way am I relaxing. These nut jobs are active in the community, put themselves on school boards all over the country, get elected in small slots and move up. Just check out how many of our government officials at the federal level are into this shit, the climate change deniers being one big block. Also there are plenty of these asshats in the upper levels of the military. As one other poster mentioned, the firs people who get axed in a military dictatorship are the teachers of knowledge to the next generation. There are enough of these morons in place now and the movement is growing. You need to do a tad bit more research before you sit back and relax.
ReplyDeleteFirst of all, it's "who" do you trust (don't just throw "whom" out there incorrectly to sound smart!) These people trust science when they go to the doctor, watch tv, rely on seismologists to predict volcanic activity, eat hybridized crops, get chemotherapy, x-rays, use cell-phones. The same science explains carbon-dating of fossils, plate tectonics, and evolution. You cannot pick and choose which science you agree with for your own convenience. There is no conspiracy to prove religion is wrong (that just happens to be a consequence of logical thinking, another no-no). Why would there be? If we can't understand our world accurately, we cannot identify problems or work on solutions. That will be our doom, lack of forethought, not an apocalypse. We have the mental power, but may not have the fortitude or willingness to cooperate to let go of these myths that are used to manipulate people. Human nature is complex and hard to understand.
ReplyDelete"...GOD is responsible for science..."
ReplyDeleteLOL - the Tooth Fairy is responsible for dentistry...
Creationism has no more place in science class than does astrology in an astronomy class.
On one hand, I love my country and want to see us catch up with the rest of the world, on the other hand, their kids are disadvantaged now and ours will be ahead, so, f-em.
ReplyDeleteBut their ignorance will bring this country down. One new congressman says that Global Warming CAN'T be true because God promised Noah he would not destroy the world again. Sigh.
anon 7:09
ReplyDeletePlease chill ok? there are levels of abuse.
I believe that purposely indocrinating your children to believe potential nonsense and mistruths is abuse. I am a victim of this type of abuse as well as neglect and occasional physical abuse by my mother. As an adult, I am most angry about the indoctrination. If SHE had not been indoctrinated, in turn my sister and i would not have been abused and neglected. Gryphen is taking NOTHING away from other forms of abuse with this post. Squashing a child's intellectual potential by purposefully filling their heads with fear and nonsense IS ABUSE.
Thankfully Mother Nature has given each of us our own brain and I have "faith" that kids in this situation will be able to discern the BS from reality once they get out in the world and have to compete. The religious way of thinking does not hold up in the real world where the thinking adults hang out. I also agree that this is a form of child abuse--no doubt about it. Our job as parents is to equip our children in all facets and these parents are short changing their kids on so many levels.
ReplyDeleteI wouldn't call it abuse; I'd call it educational neglect (the same thing Sarah and Todd Palin are guilty of).
ReplyDeleteAs a pastor of mine once said, "Jesus came to save us from our sins, not from our brains."
ReplyDeleteEven the great theologian, Augustine, knew dangers of saying stuff folks knew was false:
"Usually, even a non-Christian knows something about the earth, the heavens, and the other elements of this world, about the motion and orbit of the stars and even their size and relative positions, about the predictable eclipses of the sun and moon, the cycles of the years and seasons, about the kinds of animals, shrubs, stones, and so forth, and this knowledge he holds to as being certain from reason and experience. Now, it is a disgraceful and dangerous thing for an infidel to hear a Christian, presumably giving the meaning of Holy Scripture, talking nonsense on these topics; and we should take all means to prevent such an embarrassing situation, in which people show up vast ignorance in a Christian and laugh it to scorn. The shame is not so much that an ignorant individual is derided, but that people outside the household of the faith think our sacred writers held such opinions, and, to the great loss of those for whose salvation we toil, the writers of our Scripture are criticized and rejected as unlearned men.... Reckless and incompetent expounders of Holy Scripture bring untold trouble and sorrow on their wiser brethren when they are caught in one of their mischievous false opinions and are taken to task by these who are not bound by the authority of our sacred books. For then, to defend their utterly foolish and obviously untrue statements, they will try to call upon Holy Scripture for proof and even recite from memory many passages which they think support their position, although they understand neither what they say nor the things about which they make assertion."
This is about 1500 years ago. How far we've come---NOT!
Oops... I think part my recent post was wrong.... "Whom do you trust?" is grammatically correct. But I stand by the rest of what I said.
ReplyDeleteWell 8:28, the problem is when it's a big enough infiltration, like say. Texas, then their choices influence the publishers, and then that's what's available for the rest of the school systems.
ReplyDeleteGoogle it - it's been covered elsewhere.
I think these people are wrong, but I don't believe thinking wrong things is child abuse. Doctors used to think bloodletting was a good treatment. Medicine has made so many mistakes over the years it's like shooting fish in a barrel to label their beliefs and treatments that hurt people, albeit with the best of intentions.
ReplyDeleteThere was a time when people thought the earth being round was as ridiculous as you think the creationists are.
I'm not arguing there are some things that are true, regardless of what anyone thinks. I just think calling thinking what you think is wrong "child abuse" is to create a diversion to the real issue.
I agree that believing in creationism is harmful to science - but msot of us aren't scientists. Frankly, most of us can live our lives believing in creationism, or witches, or demons, or sky monkeys without much harm to anyone.
I also agree that teaching creationism in school as a scientific theory is harmful to the children. Creationism isn't a scientific theory and saying it is doesn't make it so. And it doesn't provide the children with the necessary foundation for furtuer scientific inquiry. That's hurtful to the nation as well as the child. But it doesn't make it child abuse. Parents hurt children every day. Kind, decent, loving parents hurt their children, unintentionally but very deeply. That's making a mistake. Sometimes they are big, serious mistakes. That's not child abuse.
To make it child abuse takes away a parent's right to think and teach their children what they want. I don't want someone telling me I can't home school mykids, or I should spand them, or any number of things that people would like to enforce.
Lucy
8:20PM
ReplyDeleteIt is insulting to say that I don't understand emotional abuse. I absolutely do. I also understand that once the body has healed, there are decades of emotional pain and suffering these children have to endure.
The judges and courts rule in favor of abusers every day. The children go back to parents who have severely abused and sexually assaulted them. Despite strong evidence of abuse, the children are still returned and will most likely be back in the system within a year. As budgets are cut, money for out of home placements drop and only the worst cases are prosecuted. Ask any social worker in your state what is happening to child protective services during tough budget times.
My point in all of this was that we have such strong abuse, i.e. physical and mental, that there is no court in America that would view the creationists teachings as abuse. The accuser wouldn't make it past the intake worker. No, these kids aren't going to be scholars, critical thinkers or be able to compete in science or any other area, but neither are many of the children in this country who come from extreme poverty, poor school systems, etc. I agree with every conclusion of what happens to these children when this dogma is pushed down their throats day in and day out.
At the end of the blog, it stated that Gryphen was interested in hearing our thoughts. I guess someone disagreeing with terminology doesn't count so that person is dogmatic, ignorant, etc.
Newmom. Thank you for your comments about perspective. I agree with all the conclusions, but calling this abuse just doesn't work for me, especially given how tough it is to remove children from the most abusive homes.
ReplyDeleteIt is about perspective. No one needs to be attacked, i.e. "I hope children in your care don't die". Really? Is that necessary.
Lucy - great post. It was thoughtful and insightful.
ReplyDeleteThese are the people that are bigoted racists, closed minded, most ignorant people. They go by the bible so literary that their minds have been shut off to self reasoning. Basically, BRAINWASHED people that cannot think for themselves. They are told what to believe from such a young age they just don't know how to think for themselves. They pray for other people to be "saved" and cannot see for themselves that they are the ones need saving from their own religion.
ReplyDelete4:27am
ReplyDeleteYeah, I do need to chill. It has been a tough week, however, with at least two court decisions that returned children to very abusive homes, both emotionally and physically. I felt pretty raw about what happened and then read the zoo trip blog and reacted. I am surprised by some of the reactions received. I never thought that would be the case at IM. Hoping children wouldn't die under my care. Really?? I think others also need to chill. I agree with the conclusions, but not the use of the word.
I'd like to ask the creationists what they think of Gregor Mendel, the father of genetics, who was a priest. Mendel showed that religion does not mean that science has no place in the world.
ReplyDeleteWe live in an era where "fair and balanced" means giving any nutcase a voice equal to that of one of reason. On HuffPo:
ReplyDeleteFox News Viewers Are The Most Misinformed: Study
1:42am. Thank you for such an intelligent and thoughtful post. Your statements were eloquent and showed an ability to differentiate and provide perspective.
ReplyDeleteIt all comes down to understanding the concept of metaphor. The fundamentalists of all religions don't seem to get that...
ReplyDelete6:26, please reread my comment at 1:42a. I think you have me mixed up with another commentor. I never said what you wrote.
ReplyDeleteSo bad for the country and these particular kids. They won't be able to compete in an increasingly complex world. If this sort of anti-scientific view is taken up in large numbers we're doomed.
ReplyDeleteSo ? The peaceful animals became killers after Adam & Eve were tossed from the garden over sin, So killing is sin, Thus the animals are sinful and man kills so man is sinful and man not only kills man but also kills animals, So hunting is a sin thus eating processed meat of anykind is sinful therefore for a christian to eat Beef, Ham, Chicken, or Fish is a sinful act, But to eat vegatarian one must kill the plant so that too is a sinful act argo the only true christian cannot eat they must rely on faith itself to sustain life ! OK ??
ReplyDeleteMuch more than the museum and other such Bible parks is home schooling. First, I am NOT against home schooling. Done right, it is superior to regular public education because of the one on one time. Biblical home schooling allows these children nothing but this garbage every day. Social studies is American Exceptualism, period. Science is this museum. Literature is the Bible, approved nonfiction, and fiction in a very narrow sphere. Much Christian fiction is out. These kids are allowed to socialize only with the kids in their church. How they ever make it in the workplace is a mystery to me.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous said...
ReplyDeleteBut their ignorance will bring this country down. One new congressman says that Global Warming CAN'T be true because God promised Noah he would not destroy the world again. Sigh.
4:22 AM
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NOT TRUE Anony... If you are going to quote the bible myths and tall tales and obviously you have access to the internet, at least look it up BEFORE you misquote and lead other more ignorant people astray.
Genesis 9:8-17 (King James Version)
11 And I will establish my covenant with you, neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a flood; neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+9%3A8-17&version=KJV
Let's see, that still leaves nukes destroying the earth, being smashed to pieces by large space bodies, freak accident moving Earth closer to the sun, cooking everything on Terra or another Ice Age, colder than the last and covering the entire earth.
Oh Xtians, your deity is a tricky, fickle and devious son-of-a-gun!
Most people who "QUOTE" from the bible have never read the bible or the full passage in the context it was written or even know that there are more than 700 other Xtian books that were either removed from or left out of the final collection known as "THE BIBLE"!
Remember these are the same bible thumping nutjobs that believe every word in the bible is from god's mouth and would force all of the rest of us to join their cult!
Eat Human Feces!
"And thou shalt eat it as barley cakes, and thou shalt bake it with dung that cometh out of man, in their sight. And the LORD said, Even thus shall the children of Israel eat their defiled bread among the Gentiles, whither I will drive them." (Ezekiel 4:12-13)
Comment
Holy shit cakes, Batman! How many good Christians today realize that their God has coprophilic tendencies?
One wonders what nutritional or moral value it would serve the people to eat human feces with their bread, as God ordered. God here has also ordered the voyeuristic operation without explanation. Although in verses 14-15 the poor Israelites complain about eating abominable flesh, God (in his "wonderful" grace) changes his mind and allows them to substitute human feces with cow feces. Gee, thanks a lot God! (as if eating cow excrement makes much of a difference). You'd think the Creator of the entire universe might have given his "chosen ones" a soufflé or a bagel or something. Please, anything better than shit-cakes! One might also wonder: how can an all-knowing and perfect God (but a scat-God nevertheless), change his mind?
An an environmental issues educator, this mentality is one of the biggest challenges I have to overcome. That - and finding ways to engage children who never seem to go outside and are constantly working with some kind of electronic device with nature.
ReplyDeleteThink about this, if the bible is true and really the word of god, WHY ARE THERE ANY SICK CHRISTIANS??? ONE WOULD THINK THEY WOULD AT LEAST HEAL THEIR OWN!
ReplyDeleteMark 16:17-18 (King James Version)
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, AND THEY SHALL RECOVER!
Crazy American Christian Woman Goes into a Religious Rage aka "God Warrior"
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qjl54v1irbs
Gryphen I wish you would post this video to remind everyone what happens to children who are brainwashed into the Xtian cults... they grow up to be fanatic nutcases scared to death of anything they don't understand, ESPECIALLY ANYTHING SCIENTIFIC THAT DISPROVES THE ABSOLUTE TRUTH OF THE BIBLE.
I have known a number of them, been to their churches and watched their preacher work the congregation into a state of mass hysteria where many were doing justice to any frenzied whirling dervish or voodoo ritual participants, screaming, writhing on the floor and shaking like they had epilepsy and talking giberish.
It is best to distance yourself without making any coments because these people will never forgive you for not joining them in their quest to save your soul and the whole world according to their sick beliefs. They will go out of their way to cause you trouble, misery and or grief whenever the opportunity occurs.
7:09, you are right to outraged at the physical abuse and the emotional abuse levied on children from bad homes.
ReplyDeleteHowever, I think you yourself are too traumatized by that narrow definition. There are many different categories and levels of abuse. You have seen many - too many instances of tangible child abuse.
There is abuse that strikes to the heart and mind of a child and that is what is being addressed here. It is not tangible, it is not easily apparent. It may not even manifest for years but it is abuse nonetheless. Whenever you intentionally limit someone from achieving their potential or turn them against other people, you are abusing them.
Why not search out the book and the website of the son of in the infamous leader of the Westboro Baptist Church, Fred Phellps. That son, Nate Phellps, was physically abused, but survived it. The longest lastest harm though was not physical.
It took him decades to grow beyond the pain of the mental harm, the emotional damage.
The numerous siblings who never left Fred's home are still being abused - not physically. Their lives not revolve around their father's psychosis, around hate.
Those children, like hundreds of thousands of others, will be limited by the intellectual abuse, the intense conditioning they received at the hands of their "loving parents."
I had a good friend who won a scholarship to the top university in France because of her grades and her expertise with the violin. However, because her parents were ultra-conservative Christians, they would not let her go. They insisted she attend Oral Roberts University.
I visited her there one Spring. The rigidity of the dogma and the behavior codes, the strictures that she had been able to ingeniously avoid by reading on the sly when younger were unavoidable there. The university tried to make her submission both behaviorally and intellectually. Last I heard, she tried to commit suicide but survived only to live a very mediocre life.
I have always thought of her as victim of abuse. Her shining potential, her talent was wasted and she knew it. It drove to the bring of death, and finally to a life of quiet desperation. So, don't limit yourself to only the physical manifestations of abuse - those wounds heal, the deeper ones are much worse(not so imply that there aren't emotional and mental scars from physical abuse - because any rape victim is traumatized for life).
BTW, thank you for your service to children. They need all the loving hearts and strong spirits they can get to help them when they are in such families. All I am suggesting is that you open your horizon to include those children whose injuries are just as horrendous and perhaps even more binding.
PRIOR: Whenever you intentionally limit someone from achieving their potential or turn them against other people, you are abusing them.
ReplyDeleteRESPONSE: Then the vast majority of parents abuse their children every day.
To make "abuse" mean anything you think is bad for children is to cheapen both your argument and the tragedy of abuse.
I know fine people, good parents, decent people who believe that nonsense.
Are there some cults that are abusive in their teachings. Jonestown comes to mind. THat's not the same as treating the bible as superior to science in explaining things. I think they're wrong. But they think I'm wrong about a lot of stuff. I bet many people reading this blog think I'm wrong about some of my parenting style. In America there is a constitutional right to be a lousy parent without the government interfering, barring neglect or abuse as defined by the statutes and courts. This doesn't even come close.
Lucy
PRIOR: So, don't limit yourself to only the physical manifestations of abuse - those wounds heal, the deeper ones are much worse..
ReplyDeleteRESPONSE: So then how would you define "abuse" that allows for differences of opinion about the many things parents think are important. How much emotional harm is required for a label of abuse? How much can someone yell at their child? what can they teach their kids and what can't they teach their kids? How do you draw the line.
I think "causing emotional harm" as the test is likely to include most every parent I know. How would you draw the line?
Lucy
OK, First off There is lots of circumstantial evidence for dinosaurs being on the earth at the same time as humans. St George and the dragon is a good example, look it up. Also there are several cave paintings portraying dinosaurs in the flesh. Paintings that have details that "modern science" just recently discovered. (i.e. long neck dinosaurs having their tails in the air as a counter weight rather than dragging their tales on the ground.)
ReplyDeleteSecond, Most people agree that bull dogs, poodles, pugs, golden retrievers, and all dog breads were not created at the same time. Just like all the breeds of finch, fish, snakes, insects, and all the different types of animals. I will use dogs as an example. All the breeds of dog from wolves to poodles are related and most came into existence through selective breeding and natural selection. This is an example of Micro evolution. Now I will not argue about that. Where I have a problem is making the jump to Macro evolution. This is where if given enough time that a bear can evolve into a completely different species of animal. In order for this to have happened there would need to be transitory fossils in the fossil record. The simple fact is that there are none of these "in between" fossils.
In conclusion in my own opinion, Creation is the most viable explanation. The evidence for creation is as strong as the evidence for evolution. I don't try to convert others. But as for me and my family we believe the bible.