Courtesy of Crooks and Liars:
"Would you allow no exceptions for cases of rape on incest?" Fox News host, Byron York asked. "Polls have shown that large majorities of Americans support some exceptions for abortion. Are your views too much, even for many conservatives to support?"
"That child is an innocent victim," Santorum replied. "To be victimized twice would be a horrible thing. It is an innocent human life, genetically human from the moment of conception. We in America should be big enough to try to surround ourselves and help women in those terrible situations who have been traumatized already. To put them through another trauma of an abortion, I think is too much to ask. So I would absolutely stand and say that one violence is enough."
Now ladies I might need all of you weigh in here, because I am just one of those pathetic creatures burdened with a "Y" chromosome, but is there really ANY comparisons between the feelings associated with terminating an unwanted pregnancy and being forced to carry your rapists child to term?
Personally I would have to imagine that every day of those long nine months could potentially add layers upon layers of trauma to the initial pain of the assault.
It sounds as if Santorum, who believes that life begins as conception, feels this same way about the "morning after" pill. As if taking a precautionary medication to ensure that the potential of fertilization resulting from a violent insemination does not further burden the victim, can be compared to the act of rape.
Does Rick Santorum not have a wife, or sister, or daughter?
What is it about these people that makes them place the rights of a cluster of cells above that of every other already living person on the planet.
They demand that the fetus be protected, yet they support the death penalty.
They demand that the fetus be protected, yet they have little problem sending our troops to kill people all over the world.
They demand that the fetus be protected, yet they argue against sending aid to places like Africa where famine is killing thousands of innocent people.
I will just never understand why the protection of a POTENTIAL life, can take precedence over the protection of an ACTUAL life.
And perhaps it is better that I NEVER understand that.
AMEN! I cannot stand this - smaller government EXCEPT when it has to do with my uterus. Eff off. They're all hypocrites (mostly all).
ReplyDeleteT
So what would he advise his wife, daughter or sister to do if they got raped? The way these guys feel about blacks, I am sure they would advise the morning after pill or an abortion immediately.
ReplyDeleteAll he wants to do is control the women, he needs to shut up about women and buy a clue.
He is continuing the religious rights brain washing about birth control. This country doesn't need narrow-minded people like Rick.
By forcing the woman to have the rapist's baby, dumb Rick is reminding her every day of the rape. He really is a stupid man. He actually is very scary in his way of thinking.
Well after all the fun I had yesterday over the Bachmann"s corn dog eating, it"s time to get back to things that make my blood boil! Santorum is an idiot. The "CHILD" is the innocemt victim?? First, what about the woman who was attacked or the young girl who was raped by her father? Second, I agree with you- there is a bunch of cells, no "child". 9 months of trauma PLUS chikdbirth and deciding to either raise the child or give it up for adoption.
ReplyDeleteFucking asshole. I was raped and had the morning after pill. If I had gotten pregnant from that rape and was then told I had to carry the fetus, I would have gone to another country to get an abortion. I'd like to traumatize that asshole with a big fucking stick up his butt.
ReplyDeleteWell said Gryphen. I've often made those same points to pro-lifers and have never managed to get a sane answer. My parents are very devout Catholics and liberal Dems. While they would follow their religion and never abort themselves (with exceptions such as threat to the mother, rape, incest, etc), they do not believe in legislating against it. It is a personal and religious matter. They tell me about how this whole pro-life movement has blinded others in their parish from making sane voting decisions while ignoring the injustices they don't take a stance on. At age 16 they gave me the choice to continue in the Catholic church and I couldn't due the hypocrisies and behavior of nuns and priests and the bad decisions by the vatican.
ReplyDeleteThey care about the fetus but want to cut funding for the mother's prenatal care. The interest ends when the baby leaves the womb. Cuts to Head Start, Medicaid, education and social services prove this is just a political game and the fetus is the pawn.
ReplyDeleteGryphen, as a lady, I have to tell you that I don't understand what's his name's (as a lady, I refuse to write that name - it's vulgar!) position on abortion either, especially in regards to rape. I've been pregnant twice, one was planned, the other wasn't, but both by my husband and both babies loved and welcomed. I've never been raped, so can only say that I imagine that I would NOT want to carry the rapist's baby to term. It would be horrifying!
ReplyDeleteDidn't what's his name's wife have an abortion?
Yes, the baby is innocent...so let the woman take the emergency pill or have a "d and C" right away so there is no chance she can conceive....or allow an early abortion while it is still just a bunch of cells.
ReplyDeleteI can't imagine having to carry a rapist's child for nine months, then have labor and push it out and then have it look Just Like my Rapist.
Oh no, that's not traumatizing a second time either.
These people are idiots.
G - why the Hell are you still single?
ReplyDeleteBecause you are SUCH an amazing man!!
Or you may be with someone & we don't know it...she's incredibly lucky.
:-)
Thank you for this post & for being an outspoken ally for women.
I see your love for your daughter & mom when I read these words.
Bravo!
Tata Ala
Yes, he has a wife and daughters. And when his wife had to have an abortion owing to a severe infection during a pregnancy, he was fine with that. And they took the fetus home from the hospital with them to show their kids, and then had a funeral for it.
ReplyDeleteIt's just another man trying to control women. Luckily, he was voted out of office and doesn't really have any chance of being elected to anything else.
Gryphen~
ReplyDeleteIt's bad enough to end up with an unwanted pregnancy. There are many different reasons for them.
But to carry a rapists baby to full term??
All I can say to Rick "frothy mixture" Santorum is that I only wish a man could get pregnant.
They CAN get raped! Maybe he needs to talk to some little guys in prison who ended up as bitches.
Having to carry a rapists baby is cruel & unusual punishment.
No MAN should have authority to speak on this issue, and certainly no PERSON with as little compassion as Santorum (and others of his ilk) should ever be granted credibility when they spew this sort of false argument.
ReplyDeleteBeing a victim of rape would be horrific enough without a mandatory sentence of carrying the resulting fetus to term. Every day would be a cruel reminder of the violent attack one suffered.
Traumatized twice, Santorum says, if the pregnancy was terminated? What a fool! Traumatized every day during the pregnancy and again at the birth and again and again and again.....
In my opinion something is wrong with a man's brain chemistry who feels sexually excited by the act of raping another human being.
Years ago in my youth I was a firm believer that "nurture" could over come "nature". I believed that all individuals could overcome their genetic predispositions to certain "conditions". I no longer hold that opinion.
No woman should be forced to bear the offspring of their rapist.
These Pro-life under any circumstances males (and even some females) should be drawn and quartered. Better yet - let's just just draw their name out of a hat to inform them they were raped - go to the hospital for exam - questioned by police - photographed - etc. Then a week or two later - let them know they are pregnant & force them to wear the empathy belly simulator for 9 months.
ReplyDeleteMen - be prepared for the 'bend over & cough' only you get to lay down & check out the stirrups every month, and the closer to due date ... let's just say you'll have lots of practice getting used to the exams.
Not sure how to simulate labor.... perhaps inject a couple kidney stones to pass.
Rick Santorum is, and always has been, a big frothy pile of ... Never mind. (But he IS!)
ReplyDeleteIf Santorum stands by his Catholic faith as he says he does, he should also be against capital punishment but support the rights of workers to organize, to provide adequate funding for safety net programs (Medicaid, unemployment insurance, access to health care for all), living wages and benefits for workers, treatment of immigrants. These are just a few other tenets of the Catholic teachings. Judge Santorum not just by his performance on abortion, but the whole host of Catholic social justice issues.
ReplyDeleteI just did a quick scan of wikipedia and can't find anything about his stand on these issues despite the fact that these should all be known as his signature issues. He did blame the clergy sex abuse scandal on the liberals of MA because we have no morals. Ted Kennedy called out Santorum on the Senate floor for that.
No, Gryphen. There is no comparison. This guy is a dumb as a rock and probably beats his wife if he has that kind of logic. How about the life-long trauma knowing that you were conceived under those conditions??
ReplyDeleteThat's because you're operating under the assumption that they want to *protect* anything other than corporations and fellow zillionaires. No, this is more about repressing women and promoting the dominant patriarchal culture.
ReplyDeleteAs for adding any extra trauma to rape, the essential factor IS choice. Rape is all about taking away choice, and allowing women to choose whether or not to carry the child gives her back some of the power that was violently taken away. True rape is never about sex; it's always about power.
When the Republicans held the presidency & both houses of Congress, they could have easily restricted abortion into non-existence. But they didn't because it is such a hot-button issue, they know it will frighten the Sheeple into getting to the polls.
My lapsed Catholic husband is fond of saying that if men could get pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament.
"Every day ..." adds to the trauma? No, Gryph. You're absolutely wrong.
ReplyDeleteEVERY EFFING second OF CARRYING A RAPIST'S CHILD TO TERM ADDS TO THE TRAUMA. Period.
Santorum is the scum lining the outer edges of an unclean bathtub, among other things, and should be eradicated as such. What a maroon.
Speaking of his kids, did you catch him in Iowa surrounded by his wife and the five children (trying to out parent Sarah, Rick?) His wife did her best to keep looking at him and nodded occasionally. The boys were grinning and fidgeting. But his daughter, who looked to be about 16, kept looking away, rolling her eyes, and generally looking like she was stuck in Algebra when she was ready for lunch. It was too funny.
ReplyDeleteWhat is not funny is this stance that the government gets to tell a raped female what is best for her. Good Lord, I thought they wanted government gone? Kaput! I hope his daughter never comes home date-raped and pregnant. But she won't. If she found herself in that situation,she would arrange for her own abortion and never tell daddy dearest. She'd be one of those who used to die in back alleys before Roe V. Wade. The GOP sees no hypocrisy in this. None.
Gryphen, I usually don't promote other blogs without permission, but if you want to get a great, articulate understanding of feminism, try Amanda Marcotte's pandagon.net. I don't agree wit her about every little thing (as a non-parent, she is often misses the mark on child-rearing issues.
ReplyDeleteSantorum is a member of the "every sperm is sacred club. These worse than Neandertahls, don't see women as full human beings, thus,for them, there is no difference between a woman and a potential human being. Misogynists like Santorum don't recognize that giving birth can be anything but a happydance, because if they the mail, don't feel any pain, then the experience wasn't painful.
Personally, there is one cure for the santorums of the world - forced surgical implantation of a bowling ball (I would suggest a live animal here, like a possum, but I'm against animal cruelty) in his bladder, then lock him in a dark room, alone, with no drugs, until he pisses it out his little pee pee.
Then he has the right to discuss abortion after rape or consensual sex.
Never ends, these holier than thous,wanting to decide what is best for others while gaining political support for using personal issues that should be made by individuals.
ReplyDeleteThe time has come to retire the abortion,gays and guns routine, most Americans can see through this attempt to divide.
I love how you think and are so much better at putting it out there than I am. It has always boggled my mind that concept of pro-lifers have toward a possible life but then target harassing and murdering abortion providers as being justified. Or putting woman's life at risk and having themselves possibly die if they carry to term instead of termination.
Santoreum is toast anyway, but...how dare he purpose to think for others and what their level of trama would be. I am sick of men speaking for me and what I would want in any situation let alone rape!
My instinctual feeling is you don't kill babies to make your life nice. Abortions of convenience offend me, somehow, "just not the right time", etc., just got careless, etc.
ReplyDeleteHowever, in the case of any rape or incest, or very young girls, I have to err on the side of compassion.
This is a hard, awful choice for any woman or girl, (or should be!), but often with lasting emotional distress and regrets, shame, guilt that isn't eased by the condemnation of others.
Sometimes there just aren't any easy or completely "right" decisions; abortion is rife with dismaying complexity as a value issue. The strongest opinions about it seem to come from the least compassionate, most judgmental, so-called Christian hearts.
My conclusion: abortion awful, always unfortunate, but sometimes justified.
Make a 12 year old girl have her dad's/brother's/uncle's baby?
ReplyDeleteRick Santorum deserves to be raped regularly.
This female wants to reassure you, Gryph, that your feelings on this matter reflect mine perfectly. I believe that it's not the x and y chromosomes that matter here....it's the individual's brain cells.
ReplyDeleteI'm afraid that Santorum's neural synapses misfire regularly, perhaps due to a frothy mixture having migrated north and infiltrated the area between his ears.
Rick Santorum should some how and experience rape, then see, what he has to say about it. Just how, and for how long would he, be traumatized? How would he like to be the Father of a rape born child?
ReplyDeleteHow would he like his Daughter, his Sister, his Wife to be the person raped?
Mr. Santorum, a rape victum, is traumatized the rest of her life just by the act it's self, let alone being forced to bear the result of that rape.
You Mr. Santorum and the rest of your kind, have no problem with war, letting people starve all around the world,find every excuse to create war machines,spending multi billions,(for protection) we are told. But do you know of any created war machine, that has never been used?
I have no respect for the Santorum brand, or people like him.
And, they are against any sort of government aid or social services. So, they burden the woman and society with caring for the child that comes from the unwanted pregnancy, with no help from the government that is forcing her to give birth to that baby. Forget about how its life will be when it figures out how it came to be. Many will be loved and cared for, but many more will not be. And, they don't turn out so well, do they? So, there is enormous cost -- financial and emotional -- down the line for years and years when women are forced to give birth to a pregnamcy that results from a horrid violent act. Great going Rick and all.
ReplyDeleteI am very aware that rape deeply affects victims in varying degrees. However, as someone who 1. is the result of rape 2. someone who was molested 3. someone who has a child, I CANNOT imagine the thought process it would take to literally end a "child's" life. As soon as you begin living with the knowledge you're fostering the growth of another human, you change.
ReplyDeleteI am in the boat that ANY abortion will ultimately affect a woman for life.
Now, I definitely not advocating for the outlaw of abortion, as there are specific cases I would recommend, albeit hesitantly. Even in the case of a disease like Tasaks (sp), you still feel like you're murdering a person, regardless of the health of that person.
In my mind, it boils down to A. living with an abortion, something you choose (therapy is available) B. living with rape, something done TO you (again therapy is available)
It sucks but I have strong belief women are strong creatures, stronger than men, and the goodhearted will choose LIFE.
Conveniently left out of all their arguments is emergency contraception. To them conception occurs at ejaculation. Do you mean to tell me that a rape victim who has access to the morning after pill, whether over the counter, the emergency room, paramedics is a baby killer? What utter crap.
ReplyDeleteI've never met a pro choice person who thought abortion was a good choice. Phony social conservatives just want to legislate morality. The GOP just uses abortion as a wedge issue to pull more suckers into their tent and get them to vote against they're best political interest.
Why don't we get to the real issue?
ReplyDeleteWasting sperm is one of the most outrageous acts against men ever known. I mean if I go to the trouble of honoring a woman by providing it to her then how can she do anything to prevent it from meeting her egg and creating a child?
Isn't that the way dominionists actually think?
These people go after late term, then mid-term, then abortion, then any pregnancy, then morning after, next will be birth control, next condoms and they are always against "spilling seed" (I dated a woman who came from that place who explained it in detail why that was wrong). So that leaves abstinence (hooray for Brisket for showing the way), oral sex or unprotected intercourse and rolling the dice. Sounds like a great way to deal with overpopulation of the earth.
The hubris of Santorum, to think that he knows what would traumatize a woman more (abortion vs carrying a rapist's baby), is appalling but, sadly, not surprising. He also seems oblivious to the fact that women are individuals and have a wide range of reactions to rape and incest. Some might indeed be further traumatized by an abortion; in my anti-abortion youth I read stories by woman who had been raped, got pregnant, had the baby, and were glad about this decision. And it's wonderful that worked for them. But to say that because they made that choice (which they had the freedom to do), ALL women MUST carry to term a fetus resulting from an act of violence is just as unfair as forcing every woman in that situation to have an abortion. It's essential that every woman and girl is able to make the decision for herself and to consider which option would "traumatize" her less. That is the point of pro-CHOICE, as I understand it.
ReplyDeleteI would think having this choice is an important part of regaining some sense of control over her body for a woman who has been violated. Forbidding her from having an abortion is, to me, another act of control and thus violence against that woman.
What really galls me is that people like Santorum's wife and daughters, and Sharron "make lemons from lemonade" Angle, have the finances to use abortion services in other countries if they succeed in outlawing them here. As usual, it's middle-class and poor women who would suffer most from repealing Roe v Wade.
Federal Government, State or Local should NOT EVER have regulations over any person's physical body!
ReplyDeleteWork on your own body of government... Leave mine alone..PERIOD!
For the record anon @ 5:27. Often the best choice, few regrets, and it needs no justification except that of the women choosing it. Her body, her choice.
ReplyDeleteBut if you want to play that game, how about you send me a list of every medical procedure you've ever undergone and I'll make a judgment and then you can attempt to justify it? And your grocery list? And then your daily schedule, and then photos of you in your clothing so I can vet those choices too.
It can be a little confusing to read stories about this guy unless the author makes it unambiguously clear when he is referring to Rick "Google me!"Santorum, the woefully inadequate presidential contender wannabe and the... other, equally unsavory, but marginally more scatalogical "santorum". But you did a decent job here, Gryphen.
ReplyDeleteThis man and his wife aborted their baby to save the life of his wife. How dare he take it upon himself to say that others are not allowed the same right?
ReplyDeleteThese lunatics act as though women are being dragged from their homes and forced to have abortions at alarming rates. Last I checked, Pampers, Huggies et al don't seem to be hurting for business as there is no shortage of babies being born.
ReplyDeleteIf a rape victim decides to keep a child that's the result of an assault, I say more power to her. If she chooses to abort, that's her choice.
Get it Rick, that's HER CHOICE!
anon @5:43 it would be more accurate to say "As soon as you begin living with the knowledge you're fostering the growth of your rapist's baby you change". And yes, it all comes down to a woman having the freedom to make her own CHOICE.
ReplyDelete"As soon as you begin living with the knowledge you're fostering the growth of another human, you change.
ReplyDeleteI am in the boat that ANY abortion will ultimately affect a woman for life. "
WRONG WRONG WRONG. Once again a situation, where someone who has NEVER experienced something speaks in authority. I had an abortion. Not from rape but preg. nonetheless. Within minutes of confirmation, I had PP on the phone. I had the abortion the next week and NEVER ONCE thought I was taking a "child's life" That's complete bullshit. It was a lump of cells. No more no less. Do I ever think about it. Hell yes, but how not you imagine. I don't bemoan the lost of a child or suffer from depression. I think about what my life would have been like if abortion became illegal or inaccessible. I doubt that is the change in a woman's life you were referring to? The thought of anyone forcing me to carry an pregnancey to term against their wished, needs or desires pisses me the fuck off.
Don't speak in absolutes unless you have experienced, at minimum, a hint of what you speak of.
This doesn't address the trauma of a rape victim. I can't even begin to address that.
ReplyDeleteWhat they have succeeded in doing is to characterize a zygote as a baby. These assholes believe in small government unless it has to do with my vagina. Once these children arrive they want to deprive them of every other right imaginable: public education, health care, freedom from being abused (don't fund child protective services since that would infringe on nut job parents), etc. Caring about babies, my ass. They care about keeping women barefoot, controlled and pregnant.
They don't want to fund birth control under insurance plans, but will fund pills for an 80 year-old to get an erection. They deride single mothers in poverty and place no responsibility for pregnancy on the fathers. I guess the only safe sex for women who don't want to get pregnant is sterilization or having sex with women.
As my dear old dad says, "The argument about abortion wouldn't even exist if men got pregnant. It would simply be an accepted, routine procedure that no one questioned."
As a Pennsylvanian, I'm assuming (always a mistake, I know) that the way I feel about RS must be very similar to the way many of you in Alaska feel about SP. His arrogance, self-righteousness and closed-mindedness makes me cringe every time he opens his mouth and makes me ashamed of being from PA.
ReplyDeleteHowever, the main difference between RS and SP is that RS lost re-election to the Senate by a landslide. He was thrown out of office by an electorate in a state that has been described by James Carville as "Philadelphia and Pittsburgh with Alabama in between."
SP only quit.
As a result, I am about to write the only positive thing I have ever thought about SP:
- She's slightly less delusional than RS in thinking she can be president.
HYPOCRISY! It's always the word that is on my lips after reading anything about repubs.
ReplyDeleteSantorum's wife was allowed choice, LATE TERM CHOICE, but no one else should have it:
http://oursilverribbon.org/blog/?p=188
The republican's hypocrisy on the abortion issue goes back to Dan Quayle being asked about his own daughter and to quote his response, he said it would be "her decision"...in other words, HER CHOICE!
HYPOCRISY!
Nobody should group all women together and decide how they all feel about a situation. Not all women believe abortion is murdering a child (especially if it's done early on). Not all women agonize over the decision to terminate a pregnancy (it is situationally specific). Not all women live the rest if their lives traumatized or in horrible regret.
ReplyDeleteIf you believe women are strong, then you should believe women are strong enough to make the best decision for themselves and their families.
And, I'm a woman and even I find the "women are stronger than men" line a bunch of crap. All people can be amazingly strong and there's no need to compare the sexes in that way, ESPECIALLY as a way to take away a woman's right to her own decisions and destiny. It's stupid and offensive.
Rick should have every right to speak to this issue once he has the experience and knowledge of being brutally raped. I suggest he visit Big Bubba (one of his supporters) in prison, a good ol' Southern boy right out of Deliverance, and lives to tell about it. After his indoctrination as an expert on rape, I will then listen to every word that comes out of his mouth. Until then, STFU.
ReplyDeleteSantorum is a fucking blight on our great country, a sick and twisted jackass who--if I believed in controlling other people's reproduction, which I DON'T-- should not be allowed to procreate or parent. The very fact that he insists on inflicting his stupid face and simpering words on us should condemn him to an eternity in Hell--if I believed in Hell, which I DON'T.
ReplyDeleteThere, I feel much better now.
you have it down pat. ultimately, it's about subjugation of women, which would be yet another violence done to them. denying rape victims the morning after pill, or the choice to terminate a pregnancy is nothing but cruel and senseless. all he cares about is "the child", which is not even a child yet. i wonder if the same rules would apply if one of his daughters came home pregnant?
ReplyDeleteAs crazy as this will sound, I've thought this for a long time. End Timers, Dominionists and other fundies are literally waiting for the second coming of the baby Jesus. Any other choice than devotedly bearing a child under ANY circumstances throws off the odds for them. After all, if it's so hard to win the scratch-n-sniff lottery ticket, after spending all your money (except for Sarah PAC donations)on them, one less ball of cells destroys the world's chances for a fun Armageddon.
ReplyDeleteA Thoughtfully Abstinent Wild Tortoise
Abortion does not have to be traumatic! As someone who had one when I was in college, I was not traumatized by it, in fact when I do think about it I am so thankful that I had access to one that could be performed by a doctor in a licensed facility! As a mother, now, of a teen daughter I would want the same for her if the need arose.
ReplyDeletePeople may not agree with the decision I made, but I am the one that has to live with it and believe me it doesn't bother me in the least. NO one should be able to tell me what I can do with my body, especially a man!
You ask if RS has a wife, daughter, or sister. Well if so, I'm sure the logic would be to find the rapist, who most likely would be "ethnic", and put them on death row. Don't you see the logic there?
ReplyDeleteI'm watching the news this morning and listening to what voters are saying at the Ames...
"My pastor opened my eyes to what I need to do."
"He really gets that America is a Christian based nation."
I can only wonder what the hell the GOP is going to do now that their party had been totally hijacked by fundamentalist, bat-shit-crazy, wing-nuts?
It's not just Santorum. Most of Republican candidates agree with him. Failing to make exception for rape victims is horrific but no one should control when and for what reason a woman can or can't have an abortion except the woman herself, even if it's for her own convenience. Any trauma associated with abortion can likely be traced to anti-choice rhetoric and actions. The women I know who chose abortion for various reasons were all trauma-free from the abortion...because they are strong and capable of making their own choices.
ReplyDeletefrom Rick Perry's prayer meeting: (I bet the second speaker went to Jesus Camp.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKIxxB5u6x0&feature=related
Now let's talk about how many 'innocent babies' God has aborted.
And thank you, Gryphen, for standing up for us.
The first freedom in my opinion is the individual's right to control his or her own body. This is my basis for a variety of opinions regarding questions ranging from torture to legalizing marijuana, from slavery to seat belt laws, from drafting people into military service to capital punishment. Nobody (or government) has a right to tell another person what is right or wrong regarding their own body. That includes the right to make a choice on abortion as well.
ReplyDeleteI used to think my beliefs were "conservative", not so much now-a-days with religious hypocrits having hijacked the term.
When are these STUPID IDOTS going to quit.Children are already put poverty, so lets just have more children to abuse. Most children born I would guess are alredy on medicade, these nuts who get TN care or whatever state insurance, do they realize it is funded by medicade. When Medicade, medicare, and Social Security is taken away, how are ppl going to pay for births? that now cost about 10,000 to 15,000? Are the mothers going to sign unborn children over to the Corporations to pay for the births??? They want no public healthcare for all .They want no public education for all.They want wages to go down, ppl can't make it know. They want everything privitized. IN TX this Perry is having (I don't know if this is just 1 Co or more) over 350.00 for the first child to ride the school bus and like 240.00 for the second. How are ppl going to pay for all this?
ReplyDeleteThese so against abortion, and birth control need to be asked these things!! Today there are children living with drug parents, children are given back to parnts that have sexually abused them. Why should children be born into these conditions, wouldn't it be better not to have to suffer abuse over and over for years. WHERE IS THIS MANS BRAIN.I was raised to think you don't have more children than you can afford. I have tried to teach my children that too. All my dogs and cats that I have had and have, I made sue they were spaded or nutered. IF you don't believe in abortion, diffently ppl should use birth control. This being against abortion or birth control, has gotten out hand. A little off topic- but Mar of 2010 I took a female dog to be spaded and the recepionist asked if once they started the operation if they found she was PG if I wanted them to stop and let her have the puppies. Here I'm taking a 5/6 month old dog in (so she won't have any more puppies) I was insulted that they even asked that. How many dogs are put to sleep every day, because ppl don't care or it's too much trouble to care for them? Common sense is needed the earth is full. We are going to have to demand that all law makers get a big big cut in their wages and benefits, then maybe they might care about the common ppl. It takes no rocket sciencet to figure out the this country can't afford that great of an increase in children. Wherther is babies or dogs why give life to them only to face a slow painful starvation? They have to want the children for sex or slave labor, because they sure don't want a better life for them.
The trauma is being raped by one man, then having your choices removed by another.
ReplyDeleteGiving someone choice allows them to decide what is or isn't traumatic to them. Eliminating that choice so that their lives go according to your religious beliefs is tantamount to kidnapping, imprisonment or rape.
Oh that we could grow fetuses up male republican asses.........make them go full term and deliver!
ReplyDeleteAfter all, giving birth IS just like shitting a watermelon.
Maybe we could just insert 8lb watermelons and make them pass them unassisted....
Oh that we could grow fetuses up male republican arses...
ReplyDeleteAfter all, giving birth IS just like shitting a watermelon!
How about we insert 8lb watermelons and make them pass them unassisted...
oh, he would definitely have a different opinion if he was a woman. he should just stfu.
ReplyDeleteThis is probably the hardest comment I've ever written. I wonder if I'll actually sign my name to it. But here goes.
ReplyDelete(Okay, I've finished my comment and the decision is made with the click of a key.)
I have had two abortions (This is sounding like "true confessions" here.) The first was when I was about 24, back when they were still illegal. Thanks to a helpful friend who contacted some of his friends, I went to a large city a couple hours away and had the pregnancy terminated. The doctor, incidentally, was very kind, and I was very appreciative of his attitude.
I already had two toddlers, divorced from a man who didn't give a damn about his kids and never supported them. The man who impregnated me...and this was before the birth control pills were available...turned out to be a married man who had not only me but another girl pregnant. He left his wife and decided to marry the other girl (a decision he whined about later, claiming he made the wrong choice). As an already struggling single mom, I knew I couldn't handle having another small child.
A decade later, I was faced with being pregnant again by a man I had a relationship with. My kids were about eleven then, and I was still having single mom financial struggles raising them. After going from "our baby our baby" to running away from the situation, the guy finally left me to fend for myself, and I decided (this time legally) to terminate this pregnancy as well. Hmmm, why wasn't I on birth control? Oh yeah, I was a nice little Christian who wasn't supposed to be doing things like that. Interestingly, a wonderful couple from my church lent me the money to do it.
Actually, in both cases when I was pregnant, I would have been grateful for just the emotional support to get through it, and I never would have made those choices. I didn't feel the need to marry either of those guys. I just needed them to be there for me.
So, over the years I was never in a situation where having more kids was a very good idea, although I would like to have had a larger family. Once in awhile I used to think about how it would have been if I had been in a different situation and actually had four children. I never felt I made the wrong choice under the circumstances but I still felt sad when I thought about it.
Oh yeah, the second guy eventually came to regret his actions too...too late. I wasn't the victim of rape or incest, but I would stand firmly behind any woman's right to choose. The buck stops with her and the burden too. I would never encourage an abortion but would stand behind and support any woman...family or friend...whatever her decision.
So, yeah, I say fuck off too to anyone who would try to force our choices...or take them away. When these assholes start adopting and supporting all these poor unwanted kids, then I might actually be tempted to respect their positions.
I think every woman in the senate and congress should be asked if they have ever had a abortion. The hypocrites will rise to the top and come up with all sorts of excuses.
ReplyDeleteIf you are a woman and vote Republican you are a damn fool!!
ReplyDeleteAnon 5:43; REGARDING THE GOODHEARTED CHOOSE LIFE:
ReplyDeleteYou are a truely remarkable person. However, in order for "goodhearted" people such as yourself to choose life means that everyone has the right too choose.
THat is what it is all about: a woman's right too choose.
Santorum's position as "pro-life" reveals the problem with a fundamentalist, literal interpretation of a spiritual or a moral teaching. Santorum is Roman Catholic. The teaching of the Church is that a human life is just that-- from the moment of conception.
ReplyDeleteIronically, Santorum, and those like him, actually undermine the Church's teaching by a blind adherence to the words rather than the thought or spirit informing the words.
The Church's teaching on the sanctity or value of human life includes the belief that human life begins at the moment of conception. It was in large part The Church's attempt to champion the dignity and worth of life itself in the face of growing materialsim and amorality in some scientists in regard to life, an attempt to set bounds against trends that would degrade humanity further--as has happened in our age of genocidal wars and reckless science that would use its knowledge in ways that are detrimental to human values and life and in defiance of the laws of nature--as in some potentially dangerous recombinant DNA possibilities, genetically modified food, chemical weapons, nuclear weapons, etc.
That said, however, the Church's official insistence on a literal application of the teaching of the sanctity of life and Santorum's robotic adherence to it underscores the problem of all fundamentalist teachings: an idolatry of the word that precludes understanding the spirit or intention behind the word, and so also precludes a lack of charity, compassion and understanding of the particular and the human that is aways above the word in that no dictum or law ever written is more precious than a life. In that way, Santorum and the fundamentalist Christians are walking contradictions. By championing the rights of the "unborn" they are often condeming the "already born" to lives of sheer suffering and deprivation, somtimes death. That they see no contradiction in this reveals at best a complete psychological naivete--at worst they are actually complicit in the evils they rant about.
In the case of war the hypocritical and moral obtuseness of Santorum's "pro-life" position is sharply evident when he excuses, as many pro-lifers do, the killing of innocents in war. The immoral and illegal US wars in Afghanistan and Iraq he fully endorses.
This asshat and other like him would force a rape victim to have an invasive ultrasound (where a doctor or tech sticks an ultrasound in the victim's vagina) before giving her the choice of aborting. Talk about traumatic!
ReplyDeleteConcerned about wasting sperm? Quit maturbating! Think of all those potential children that you are killing! Hundreds and hundreds!
ReplyDeleteGet real. None of this is about human life. This is all about who is in charge. There are males that want power over women....keep'm all pregnant and bare foot.
He also seemed to say the child, "the fetus", would be victimized twice if you abort it. What the hell!
ReplyDeleteI agree with 8:29, with the following addition:
ReplyDeleteRepublicans' idea of women is that they should be sexy, sassy, simple-minded, and subservient. Any questions?
I do not believe anyone should impose their personal religious beliefs upon everyone else. Abortion has become a religious issue only after medical science gave us choices.
ReplyDeleteChoice is antithetical to the hierarchy of most organized religion. It threatens the power structure and those in power within it.
Because traditional Christianity is patriarchal in its foundations, allowing females choice or power is by definition against the church's best interests. Male dominion is inherent in its structure. Candidates such as Santorum, DeMint, Bachmann, and the rest are simply trying to shore up that male dominance.
They cannot allow women the right to chose how to control their bodies because it is too close to allowing them to chose how to think on their own. Allowing that might allow them to chose not to follow policies that oppress or limit their potential as equal human beings.
"I am in the boat that ANY abortion will ultimately affect a woman for life."
ReplyDeleteAnd often for the better.
I am in the boat of the woman who was raped and was very glad that pregnancy did not result, because at that time there was no morning-after emergency contraception. And the person I am quoting here, anonymous at 5:43 is a troll as much as anyone who shows up here and writes, "I'm no fan of Sarah Palin's, but.."
In this case, Anonymous feels that claiming to have been the offspring of rape, molested herself (or himself) and a parent, means he can define who a goodhearted person is. A goodhearted person, he claims, will not choose rape.
I would say a goodhearted person would not show up on a blog and pontificate on something he obviously knows nothing about. Anyone who does any honest research into abortion rights can't help but come smack into the fact that most women do not regret having the abortion, do not think about it constantly, and go on to live their lives without any particular regrets.
It's unfortunately we live in a country that is so backward about contraceptive information and so unable to prosecute rapists, but thank goodness many of us can still get abortions when they're needed.
There are two types of abortion, as we all know: spontaneous and medical. Whether you attach a religious significance or not to the spontaneous abortion, it is not a choice.
ReplyDeleteA spontaneous abortion can have just as negative impact upon a woman and her family as a medical abortion. In fact, it may be more significant because it can bring up issues of imperfection, inadequacy,and eroding of self-esteem.
Women who are unable to carry a pregnancy through to birth may be more prone to lifelong depression, suicide, and rejection by their husbands and family.
Abortion is not a simply issue, nor should it be, so for people such as Santorum to reduce it to a black-and-white, lack of choice issue is to betray their lack of understanding and insight.
It seems so much easier to adopt simplistic stands on issues than to investigate, evaluate and analyze all the variables. To make abortion a simplistic issue is to ignore all the ramifications (and facts such as the birth vs. abortion ratio) and by doing so limit intelligent, compassionate and sensible options.
Most people are pro-life, abortions are not the norm and will never be the norm as long as there is affordable and accessible contraception.
We need to embrace sex education, contraception, and take stronger measures against rape and incest. We need to make medical care more affordable so we can minimize life-threatening situations for pregnant women and allow women and their physicians the privacy to make informed decisions as regards reproductive issues.
Most importantly, in my opinion, we need to vote against politicians who want to control and oppress women based upon personal religious beliefs. We also need to accept women as equals in the bedroom, in the home, in the job market, and in politics.
Seriously? The day a man can get pregnant and give birth,is the day I will listen to his take on abortion.I got pregnant when my kids were in H.S. because my then boyfriends vasectomy had reversed.I had to really look deep inside to come to the decision to abort-I love my children more then anything in life.It was heart wrenching and something that I have learned to deal with.There will always be an empty space inside for the loss of what could have been.But,the reality of WHAT was at the time-with being a single mom almost 40,my children in the later years of H.S.,knowing my children I DO have deserved the best of me and what I could provide for them took precedence.I was also raped at 17-and there is no effing way I would have wanted to be forced to have a child that would remind me of that incident every day(as if you ever forget it anyway).Some things(the rape) you move on from eventually,and can have a great sex life by leaving it in the past and not letting it control you.The other(abortion) you go forth from with a bit of sadness in your soul for all time.But,you mourn what was,what could have been,and what never will be-and then you go forth and live and love.And-you appreciate your children in this life even more.I will ALWAYS be for the right for us women to choose the option to have a child or terminate a pregnancy.It is OUR body,OUR choice-and OURS to live with whatever we choose.This is between me and my God-and my God understands,even if sometimes I did not.Fucking pricks can suck off because they will NEVER understand being in that position.There is a special place in Hell for those sanctimonious assholes-be they male or female.
ReplyDeleteThank you Lynne, for your sincere and honest statement(@ 8:14).
ReplyDeleteEventually stories like yours will enable others to think for themselves, unencumbered by those who would control us.
With much, much love, Wild Tortoise
I don't think it really matters what I or anyone else thinks would be more traumatic. But, for the record, the idea of of being pregnant and giving birth to the child of even a man I love is traumatic to me.
ReplyDeleteThis is just a lame excuse he pulled out of his ass to convince female voters that illegalizing abortion is in THEIR best interest. Abortion is not forced on rape victims. A woman has the right to give birth to the baby if she finds the morning-after pill or abortion more traumatizing. No one is trying to take that right away from her. So this To put them through another trauma of an abortion, I think is too much to ask. bullshit is irrelevant.
And what's up with this shit? We in America should be big enough to try to ...help women in those terrible situations who have been traumatized already. They want to "help" us by taking the decision away from us? Thanks, but we don't want or need the government's "help" to decide what is traumatizing. Also, by "we in America", he obviously means government. Weren't they all for smaller government? Will the government be so eager to "help" once the baby is born? We all know the answer to that.
Implying women would be too traumatized to decide for themselves whether they should give birth to a rapist's baby is belittling and domineering.
Regardless of the mode of conception, it is the woman who decides what to do with her body. By not allowing her to abort in the event that she became pregnant from a rape is absolutely adding more layers of trauma.
ReplyDeleteThere are two different points here; First, a rape is violent act that takes the power of choice away from a woman in the most intimate and destructive way. This can sap the will and self image of a woman that may affect her for the rest of her life. Santorum suggests that our government should further withhold the power of choice from women.
Second, there are women that may choose to carry the child that resulted from a rape, others may choose to abort for other reasons. It doesn't matter-if a woman does not want to be pregnant she must have the right to terminate.
I made that choice and I've morned that child, but it allowed me to walk away from a life with alcoholics and an abusive partner. Had I not made that choice I would likely still be back in that tiny midwest town angry and nonproductive- continuing the dysfunctional patterns of my youth, and in need of those very social programs the right is working so hard to cut.
These idiots loose all credibility with me by reducing programs meant to support children. They scream LIFE about aborting a fetus, but care nothing about the lives of these babies, and the mothers who struggle every day to care for them.
Aborting a fetus is traumatic, especially for a young girl with little support. Avoiding this scenario by empowering and educating girls is the best solution.
Where my blood really starts to boil is when we talk about limiting sex education. I feel like it's all a setup. There is so much conflicting pressure to be in a relationship and get married, pressure from the guy for sex, pressure to be a conservative good girl. Not so much support when you have a brain and an opinion.
There were few options, and even less for a young single mother where I grew up. So I took another route- after the abortion I went to college and then ran away to Alaska. I have never regretted my choice. The scars I carry from a childhood where I was, at times, neglected and afraid are far deeper and more painful than the ones I've gained from the choices I've made.
I've never been raped -- which doesn't mean it won't ever happen -- but since I've had a hysterectomy a pregnancy could not result if it did.
ReplyDeleteHOWEVER, I have had an abortion NOT resulting from rape, and I simply can't express the total relief I felt at having a safe, legal, readily available (I live outside a large city in a blue state) option to end what was for me an unwanted pregnancy.
For me the only traumatization would have been not having that option. And I was (and still am) married at the time, and loved (and still love) my husband.
I cannot even imagine the horror of being raped and having to endure bearing my rapist's child because some religious whack job misogynist like Santorum want to be in charge.
As a woman who survived a violent rape and had to wait to see if I was pregnat---there is no way I would have mentally been able to carry my rapist's fetus. It would have sent me right over the edge.
ReplyDelete"I am in the boat that ANY abortion will ultimately affect a woman for life. - 5:43"
ReplyDeleteNot this one, toots. I had one. And I'm GLAD I did because I did NOT want a child. Put that in your concern pipe and smoke it.
I didn't suffer one moment of guilty or regret. I've only ever felt relief. And that is true of all the women I know who've also had abortions - and that is most of them, from all walks of life and religious backgrounds.
Nice.
ReplyDeleteThe rapist's constitutional right to due process and fairness in the legal system, to hold HIM accountable, will be upheld, no matter what his religious beliefs are or his "reasons" for an assaultive sexual offense.
Castration. A permanent life-changing medical solution. A deterrent that would REALLY work! Oh yeah, most of the shocking numbers of rapes in America wouldn't happen if perpetrators knew that was the consequence. Oh wait. That would violate his personal rights and freedoms. Government cannot force that on him.
Pregnancy. A permanent life-changing medical issue. Government CAN force that on HER? What?!
She owes it to somebody because she's able to conceive?!
The male Xtian right wing whackos seem to believe they show their worth to the world by how many offspring they sire. Why would they allow ANY of their brethren to have that taken away? You know, by Bachmann's own words, that females are supposed to submit to males.
ReplyDeleteNot only should the woman victim be allowed to terminate a pregnancy caused by rape, but the perpetrator (upon conviction) should be immediately neutered.
Should any of these invasive, sick, corporate sucking whackos be president?
Well of course it makes sense silly! What woman WOULDN'T want to be reminded daily of her brutal rape; especially watching that stomach grow with each passing day, reminding her of the seed that was planted in her WITHOUT her consent. She should feel lucky by golly, to be carrying the seed of her brutal rapist. How about we see just how much he buys that shit should one of his daughters ever get brutally raped and impregnated. I'm sure he'll just soothe them with the comforting words he saves for all the other women who have NO CHOICE whatsoever. Here's the thing, you can mandate all you want, change laws, forbid doctors to treat women and women will find a way to take care of the matter themselves; with or without the consent of these mother fuckers. Period.
ReplyDeleteHey, men, church ladies, prayer groups...
ReplyDeleteAt this evening's church service, look to your left and look to your right - ONE OUT OF EVERY THREE WOMEN OF CHILD-BEARING AGE IN THE GENERAL POPULATION HAS HAD AN UNWANTED/UNPLANNED/NONVIABLE PREGNANCY AND SUBSEQUENT ABORTION.
That's the statistic. Yep, that's right. Sorry, ladies, you can't hide. Yep, even you, Preacher's Wife. And your teenager daughter, too. Pregnant is pregnant, right? No privacy for all the good Christians, either.
MOST of us adult women have had an unintended pregnancy and abortion. MOST of us ladies already have young children at the time, and love our babies.
MOST of us adult women are NOT coerced by men, abortionists, babykiller counselors. MOST of us are in a moment of crisis. I've had an abortion. Married and he didn't want another baby, either. MOST of us felt nothing but regrettable relief.
I pledged to never let that happen again. It took the fun out of sex. 20 years later, I still don't "put out" for you guys, even when I want to. Even when you're attractive and I'm in the mood. Because I don't want to deal with unintended pregnancy.
The fact is that this country doesn't WANT birth control research. We can invent and sell multiple therapies and drugs for guys who can't get an erection, even for men with a bad heart, but we will not research and make available a safe, effective, reliable birth control pharmaceutical.
Even worse - not being able to 'get it up' is acknowledged as a legitimate "medical" condition and every insurance company covers therapy. But my health insurance will not cover birth control.
Something wrong there, with that logic.
With all the terrible jokes about women having "headaches" and not wanting sex with their men, have any of you husbands and boyfriends considered the possibility that maybe she loses the buzz when she worries about getting pregnant?!
Oh yeah, the burden of being _responsible_.
Did you know that if you are raped, get pregnant, and give birth to a child, your rapist can sue for visitation rights and will probably be granted them?
ReplyDeleteDid you know that, even if you give the child up for adoption, your rapist can track down the child and sue for visitation rights, and probably get them.
Did you know that your rapist can sue for custody (whether you keep the child or give him or her up for adoption), and although it is unlikely he will win, there is a chance he will.
If you die, your child is even more at risk of being raised by the man who raped you.
The court is set up to grant parental rights nearly at any
cost. Even men who molest their children are awarded visitation, albeit supervised.
When you have a child by a rapist, the child is not "yours,"
it belongs to both of you, even if he is convicted and serves time.
Rapists suing for visitation happens more often than you think; them being granted visitation happen more than any of us could ever believe.
I believe that women should have the choice regardless but especially in the instance of rape or incest. I imagine some women may feel empowered to carry a child to term that is the product of a rape. I wouldn't and don't know, and hope this doesn't offend any of the other commenters (especially those who have had an abortion or the morning after pill after rape), but I don't know that having the child would necessarily be traumatic every day, if your mindset is that you have taken power away from the rapist and taken power over your own body back.
ReplyDelete@Anne, this really touched me, "This is between me and my God-and my God understands, even if sometimes I did not." I'm glad you are at peace with your decisions.
ReplyDeleteGryphen asks - "Does Rick Santorum not have a wife, or sister, or daughter?"
ReplyDeleteYes, as a matter of fact, he does. And his wife Karen had an abortion to save her life. Except that they characterize it as "pre-term delivery" of their 19-week fetus. Which they took pictures of and had a funeral for.
Terrible situation. She had a uterine infection. They had to decide if they were going to let her die in order to "save" the fetus. He was prepared to let her die. She was not prepared to die, and authorized life-saving "medical intervention". Because she has other children to think of.
Wise decision on her part; completely rational and intelligent. Good for her.
Comment found on a women's blog:
30% of U.S. women have had an abortion...if all of them had the courage to be honest about their experiences, our policies would look a lot different, and so would the life chances of the truly vulnerable."
5:43AM says "will choose LIFE"
ReplyDeleteOH, do you ever have it ass-backwards. The correct capitalization is "will CHOOSE life". And YOU have absolutely ZERO right to preach to me or any other women. Because YOU know zilch.
BTW, how many rape victim's babies have you ADOPTED, FOSTERED, give diddly squat about?
11:52 AM - rapist has rights to the baby.
ReplyDeleteIt is so true and so sad. AND if Santorum and his ilk had his way, the rapist could demand custody of the rape victim until HIS child is safely out of the womb. How's that for trauma!!!
Don't forget there are morons that want to prosecute women who spontaneously abort. The woman will have to PROVE she didn't intentionally damage the fetus.
Santorum should be in JAIL for preaching torture.
Santorum wants women to CHOOSE the back-alley abortionist just like his mommy did.
ReplyDeleteWhy does he think he can speak for women? HE IS JUST A F _ _ _ _ _ _ GUY! Has he ever been raped? It really makes me mad that all of these so called Christian right guys think they corner the market on what God says! I wish they would just shut their mouths and go away! I only want to hear from other women on this and as far as I'm concerned guys should just shut up! No one is going to tell me what I can do with my body but me!
ReplyDeleteHow totally compassionate of him!!!
ReplyDeleteLuckily for women, he will never get to choose. What an ass.
I volunteer at an abortion clinic, so I know something about what I am talking about. Abortion is a medical decision between a woman, any female who is pregnant and cannot go through with a pregnancy, and her doctor. She is free to include others in her decision making, or not. Period.
Dear Dr. George Tiller said it all: Trust women.
What is it about minding your own business that these creeps don't get?
Hey Rick, how about I get to choose when/if you get to use your Viagra?
Womb envy. A bunch of men are intimidated by women's ability to bear live young - something they have absolutely zero control over and cannot themselves experience.
ReplyDeleteSo they gotta have a way to get a sense of control over that whole mystical thing.
Yes. Let's punish and insult our women for their fertility.
Even while we cannot control our own biological urges and go to any length for a quick fuck.
I became pregnant at 15 years old, by my high school boyfriend. Abortions were not legal. When I told my father, he told me of a person who performed abortions.So my boyfriend and I went to this illegal "clinic" and I was examined by a man who was definitely NOT a physician. My pregnancy was too advanced for an abortion by this man, so we told our parents and then got married. We had two more children during our 7 and one half year marriage. He was extremely controlling and narcissistic, and I finally 'woke up' and left him.My life was definitely shaped by my first pregnancy. I later became a registered nurse, and now have 5 children. I don't know how my life would have been shaped if abortion had been legally available with my first pregnancy. I do not want to see abortion outlawed again, so that women have to go to unscrupulous, unethical, uncaring, and uneducated MEN to have illegal abortions.Women deserve the right to CHOOSE!
ReplyDelete