In Texas, three Christian military organizations -- Veterans of Foreign Wars District 4, the American Legion Post 586, and the National Memorial Ladies -- have filed suit against the VA because the Veterans' Administration doesn't include Christian prayers in vets' funerals unless the deceased and/or the family request it. They are claiming that Christianity and Christians are being discriminated against when Christianity isn't inserted into every funeral, whether the family wants it or not.
"It makes my skin crawl that liberals are attempting to drive prayer out of a funeral ceremony for our heroes," Texas Rep. John Culbersontold Fox News, which has given significant airtime to the controversy. "We're going to fix this so that no Obama liberal bureaucrat will interfere with the funeral of a hero."
In addition to supporting the lawsuit, Culberson has threatened to stop the salary of the cemetery director who enforced the no-consent-no-God rule and to hold hearings in the fall investigating the VA's anti-Christian stance. ...
Marilyn Koepp, secretary of National Memorial Ladies, a volunteer group that attends veterans' funerals, shares her woes with Fox News: "It's very hard for me to be at the funeral of one of our veterans ... and we just make that decision that we will say God bless you, and how can someone tell us, no you can't."
The VA's position is both clear and correct:
"The idea that invoking the name of God or Jesus is banned at VA national cemeteries is blatantly false. The truth is VA's policy protects veterans' families' rights to pray however they choose at our national cemeteries. Put simply, VA policy puts the wishes of the veteran's family above all else on the day it matters most -- the day they pay their final respects to their loved one."
It does not take somebody who is an Atheist, a Muslim, a Jew, a Buddhist, a Hindu, or any other non-Christian religion to see how this is wrong. All one has to do is imagine how a Christian family would feel they had no choice but to listen while prayers from the Koran were read over the body of their deceased loved one.
Could you imagine how Fox News would react in response to that kind of a story?
Isn't it in Matthew 7:12 of the King James Bible that reads: Therefore all things whatever you would that men should do to you, do you even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.
Do these idiots not even read the words in the book that they fight so hard to thrust into the faces of the people around them?
And the Koran states "unto you your religion and unto to me mine". But that doesn't play well on Faux Noise.
ReplyDeleteThose organizations will lose.
ReplyDeleteSeparation of church and state means just that.
Freedom of religion, to practice as you wish--not one thrust upon you.
I come from a Protestant family. My mom was a Methodist (true social worker) and my dad a Southern Baptist with a church full of academia and scientists - so not quite what you might think. We had a large Korean population relocate near us due to the Korean War. And we lived near the first mosque in the US (upper NW DC). Then the Viet Nam refugees moved in.
ReplyDeleteEverything worthwhile I learned in my Sunday Schools was to love one another. And my life has been blessed with wonderful sharing of our human experiences with friends around the world.
I come from a Protestant family. My mom was a Methodist (true social worker) and my dad a Southern Baptist with a church full of academia and scientists - so not quite what you might think. We had a large Korean population relocate near us due to the Korean War. And we lived near the first mosque in the US (upper NW DC). Then the Viet Nam refugees moved in.
ReplyDeleteEverything worthwhile I learned in my Sunday Schools was to love one another. And my life has been blessed with wonderful sharing of our human experiences with friends around the world.
This should be no surprise. The only response is to keep religious nuts out of any form of power.
ReplyDeleteBill
No, they don't read much of the Bible, but that's not all that they don't read. They don't read the Constitution either. These "christians" do not seem to understand that the First Amendment guarantees religious freedom, and it does NOT establish a state religion.
ReplyDeleteGryphen, I think their real problem is lack of faith, so they are forcing it on everyone else. They are pathetic!
This is just insane. If there was any doubt that the dominionists want to turn this nation into THEIR nation, and the hell with anyone who doesn't think the exact same way, here you are. And if you are a veteran who was not Christian, these people will make sure that at your final public event on this Earth, THEY will tell your family what will happen.
ReplyDeleteI have one question for them. How in the hell do they justify being 'Christian' and killing other people in the first place? War is about the most anti-Christian thing one can do. Killing another human being for any reason is against the commandments, and against everything Jesus taught. These people are frauds, just like the entire GOP. Disgusting.
Never a day goes by that I don't thank God I'm an atheist.
ReplyDeleteIronically, we seem to be turning into a society that is much like the Middle Eastern ones that we rail against. We push hard for secular leaders in the Middle East, lest the fundamentalist Muslims take control, and yet here now to be elected you have to profess a deep devotion to Jesus and God. We are becoming what we most fear. As an Atheist, it is becoming an increasingly surreal world to live in.
ReplyDeletethere is something so radically wrong with these "christian" militants. Every day I see or read something like this, I think it can't get any crazier or worse but of course....here it is. These people are sick and very arrogant and it reminds me of the holy wars in the middle east. My god peope!! How DARE they try to impose this sick shit on grieving families. How in the hell did we get this bad in the name of god? More then ever, we need to seperate church and state. My definition of a christian is no way near these radicals - they're not christians. They are religous terrorists and they need to be stopped totally and without delay.
ReplyDeleteTo answer your last question. . . No.
ReplyDeleteI know your ending question is rhetorical, nevertheless, the answer is no.
ReplyDeleteWhat is wrong with these nutty so-called Christians? What has happened in our country that it has gone so haywire? These so-called Christians are the new generation of oppressors and no different that the reason people left their countries and came to the "new world." They wanted to get away from religious oppression and now these nut jobs are starting it! Nobody has stopped any of them from practicing their religion. Nobody has oppressed them because of the way they believe. What a bunch of nut jobs!
ReplyDeleteI never thought that the Veterans of Foreign Wars and the American Legion were "Christian" organizations. The next time someone from either of these groups wants money for a poppy flower or for some other fundraiser, I'll ask about their religious orientation before donating! There are apparently a lot of Americans out there who need to learn about the Constitution and about American history.
ReplyDeleteThanks for sharing this. This is the kind of story that keeps me coming back to IM.
ReplyDeleteThese people are so caught up in trying to be godly that they miss thinking WWJD?
It would be highly insulting to force Christian prayer on a Buddhist funeral. What these three idiots are doing is paving the way for the Westboro Baptists to legally force their way into all funeral services.
ReplyDeleteThe VA does not, repeat, DOES NOT, forbid Christian prayers at funerals. They also DO NOT force prayers where they are not wanted.
Gryphen,
ReplyDeleteThank you for posting this.
I hope that someone asks Perry, Bachmann, or Santorum about this at the GOP debates.
It should be a matter beyond what is referred to as "common sense" to not force christian prayers on a Jewish family at a funeral for their son or daughter.
As though somehow the christians are VICTIMS in a case like this?
That sounds just like Granny grifter spewing blood libel accusations after 6 people die in Tucson, and that somehow $arah is the victim because of her map with gunsite targets on it.
No, that's the problem, they pick and choose only those words that suit them!
ReplyDeleteNancyB in SC
"Do these idiots not even read the words in the book that they fight so hard to thrust into the faces of the people around them?"
ReplyDeleteNo.
This has been another Simple Answer To Simple Questions.
What arrogance!
ReplyDelete"...Obama liberal bureaucrat..." Oh is that how this rule came into being or has it been there forever? These uber-Christians make me sick, and, yeah, I'm a Christian.
At first I thought this was an Onion article. Are you sure it's not?
ReplyDeleteI would mind if my or my family's wishes were not respected and used at my funeral. The Government as it is does a beautiful, respectful, and when requested, prayerful funeral. The family is asked specifically if and what prayer they would like. You may have your chaplain. You have input just as at a non-military funeral. Mandating a specific prayer from a certain religious organization is unconstitutional, never mind the fact that, even though I am a Roman Catholic, I would be honored to have a prayer or several from any and all good people of any faith. This suit is dictatorial, unchristian, and frankly stupid; they are suing to take rights away.
ReplyDeleteMaryW
I'm sure Pat Tillman's family would have something to say about this story...
ReplyDeleteWhy is it that any time anyone tries to be fair, just and accommodating to ALL, the "Christians" rise up and claim that THEY'RE now being oppressed?
ReplyDeleteTalk about an entitlement mindset...
I just feel like so many bad things come out of Texas, politically speaking only.
ReplyDeleteI am with you, Nulani. That has been my experience with my Christian faith as well. Christianity as practiced by scientists; I know quite a few. Christianity that embraces all people, respects other traditions, reaches out to help others.
Nothing about imposing it upon anyone else or proselytizing. Just love your neighbor and work on becoming a better human being yourself. Pretty much sums it up.
Christianity has lots in common with other faiths and also non-religious credos, when practiced according to Jesus's actual teachings.
I am very tired of so-called Christians telling the rest of the world how they should believe and that their brand of Christianity is the only true religion. No one has the right to override the beliefs of a person and his/her family.
ReplyDeleteMost mainstream religions have much in common - a variation of the Ten Commandments and the understanding that religion is a person belief and all beliefs should be honored.
However, this uniquely American form of xtianity in this article is so close-minded and hateful that I lose much of objectivity when reading about them. They are NOT CHRISTIAN! Jesus would never recognize their brand of religion and he would abhor their hateful, divisive stance.
Sorry for the rant. Needed to make it to clear my head :)
I am very tired of so-called Christians telling the rest of the world how they should believe and that their brand of Christianity is the only true religion. No one has the right to override the beliefs of a person and his/her family.
ReplyDeleteMost mainstream religions have much in common - a variation of the Ten Commandments and the understanding that religion is a person belief and all beliefs should be honored.
However, this uniquely American form of xtianity in this article is so close-minded and hateful that I lose much of objectivity when reading about them. They are NOT CHRISTIAN! Jesus would never recognize their brand of religion and he would abhor their hateful, divisive stance.
Sorry for the rant. Needed to make it to clear my head :)
I live in Texas. I gotta tell you, the attitude of the Republican party and their dogmatic authoritarian rule is frankly chilling. They seem to rebuke socialism by become fascists. And not a single one of them could define either of those terms. A confederacy of dunces.
ReplyDeleteI always think of Christianity as the religion that couldn't exist if it didn't have political leadership forcing it on people.
ReplyDeleteNo, seriously. Look at how it spread. Convert the king, and the king orders everyone else to convert or die. Wars have been fought to enforce Christianity on people.
Now we're seeing people insisting that schools, a government institution, force prayers on kids. We're seeing them forcing the government to pay for "private" aka Christian schools. (Think they're going to be willing to pay for students to attend Muslim or Wiccan schools?) We're seeing the military being taken over by them, so that if somebody wants a military career their chances of promotion are better if they're Christian.
I really, really hate Christianity as an institution. It's amazing that so many Christians are basically normal people; I wonder what they could be if they had a chance to be some other, or even no, religion.
And yes, I work in a Christian hospital. We have public prayers over the loudspeaker twice a day. And crucifixes on all the walls. Official policy says that if the patient objects, they can be removed. Guess what? They aren't removable. I was hospitalized there, and my husband tried to remove it. Doesn't come off.
I've taken to pulling the Gideon bibles out of hotel rooms, taking them to the desk, and telling them that I object to being told what religion I should find comfort in... it's not their job.
I think Christians have no idea how much ill-will they create for themselves.
We just had a VA ceremony for my grandma. What a wonderful service the VA provides -- vets and their widows get free burials. Thats government at its best. Figures these assholes want to ruin it.
ReplyDeleteMy grandpa the veteran, btw, was jewish.
As a military "dependant" (God I HATE that word) I am making public right here & now that if ANYONE mentions Jesus or the "Christian" God at my husbands funeral (Hopefully many, MANY, decades from now) they're gonna get slapped if not worse!
ReplyDeleteOMG...can you imagine what Christopher Hutchins would/will have to say about this? I feel a storm coming. ;-)
ReplyDeleteAnonymous Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteWe just had a VA ceremony for my grandma. What a wonderful service the VA provides -- vets and their widows get free burials. Thats government at its best. Figures these assholes want to ruin it.
My grandpa the veteran, btw, was jewish.
7:14 AM
free....really?
My dad's burial cost $7K - SS kicked in $250. All the VA gave was a metal grave marker.
Your last sentence says it all!
ReplyDeleteI'm sick of this nonsense. My cousin committed suicide, and was denied burial in his family plot, because Catholicism looks on Suicide as a sin. My aunt and uncle had their other child exumed, sold all their plots, and moved to a non-denominational cemetery, at great personal expense and much soul searching on their part. At the time, I was younger and didn't understand why, but I respect what they did. What God would deny one of his creatures a dignified burial?
I think this country is doomed until we completely comply with the seperation of church and state. Churches are big businesses, and as such, should pay their fair share of taxes.
people like this are dangerous and ignorant.
That is serious BS. That is all.
ReplyDeleteThis is all manufactured.
ReplyDeleteBlame & fear the Liberals. Blame & fear Obama.
It doesn't matter if rules & laws have been in place since forever, it's about manufacturing a crisis that the Liberals & Obama have declared war on our beloved soldiers who died to give us our freedoms.
The GOP has been using oppositional research to find something against Obama to persecute & prosecute him.
Their problem is Obama is a good & decent man. He is highly intelligent & diverse, quick on his feet, can master any conversation, & has a wonderful sense of humor.
He studied & worked hard, he is a Christian & is the salt of the earth. He loves his wife & children, & gets along well with his in-laws.
He has many friends, & the only enemies in his life are political.
The only thing these hacks have against Obama is nothing. So they have to make something up.
The political enemies found something that they dislike. Something which has been observed under other presidencies & make it as if Obama is persecuting the Christians.
These are sick & evil people. Full of money & power hungry.
Those who love God & Jesus Christ would never behave this way. Perhaps one day if the Rapture should come, they'll be surprised to find themselves 'Left Behind'.
That's my take on this.
D
Michigan
Is it any wonder that the fastest rising demographic in America is "No religious affiliation."
ReplyDeleteChristian leaders tend to blame cultural trends as the reason for declining church attendance(and it may be in part), but there are many, many people like me who grew up in religious homes and now abhor what fundamentalists have done to Christianity. I absolutely despise the mixing of politics and religion. The hubris and sanctimony of these theocrats and their ignorant, hateful followers make me sick to my stomach.
"Christians" create their owm problems with stupidity like this.
ReplyDeleteTo some Anonymous posters a bit above on the cost of a Veteran's funeral. If you choose a military cemetery, and even Arlington is open for cremated remains for all, opening the grave, the funeral service, closing the grave and a stone (with choice of about 30 religious symbols including none) are gratis.
ReplyDeleteThere is a small stipend which about pays for cremation but not casket or embalming, which some states require, but not all. However if you claim he was Jewish or I think Muslim, you get a religious exemption from anything but a plain wooden box and no embalming.
The military could care less about embalming a cremated body and I don't think they care in any case. Just make certain that the paper work on the stone reflects what is wanted, and if they error from the paper work, they will replace the stone at their expense.
Spouses and minor children get the same deal, but no stipend, but it is in the same grave. I've two parents and a father in law in Arlington.
The spouse can not have remarried since the death of the veteran, unless she is named Onassis
ReplyDeleteIt's isn't lack of Faith the motivates this crap, it's lack of TRUST. Lacking trust in God, they feel it neccessary to presume to act as God's own hand on this earth.
ReplyDeleteMy wife and I are both retired vets. As it said on my dogtags, I have no religous preference, my wife's say Baptist. She will respect my desire to not have a religous funeral, so who are these people to tell her she has to. My youngest daughter knows my wishes and she would not allow this to happen. We live in Texas, if they show up that is fine as long as they keep their beliefs to themselves.
ReplyDeleteAs a Jew, I know that if some preacher tried to invoke the name of Jesus at a funeral of one of my relatives, my entire family would go up and haul the guy off and stuff a sock in his mouth. This is outrageous and should be confronted with outrage.
ReplyDeleteI know I frequently attend Christian weddings and funerals, but I was taught never to rise or kneel when the congregation does so. We do not accept those rituals for ourselves.
I'm not so sure this account of the suit is 100% unbiased and accurate. Don't get me wrong - I don't want the Bible shoved down my throat any more than the next guy. People who feel I'm being a troll or a Bible thumper are only admitting they are too narrow-minded, and yes, bigoted to be fair.
ReplyDeleteI've read some of the complaint (http://uspastorcouncil.org/uploads/Liberty_Institute_amended_brief_re_Houston_National_Cemetery.pdf), and I believe there are some valid points.
A pastor not being allowed to speak at the Memorial Day ceremony this year at the Houston National Cemetery, due to religious content. This was not a funeral, but an event that people could choose to attend or not.
VFW District 4 only attended funerals at the family's request(45. in Statement of Facts).
Prayers could only be included by written consent of the family (46).
The family then had to submit the religious content themselves (47). HOWEVER, and this is my big issue, the families aren't ALLOWED to be informed of the option to include religious content (54).
In my opinion, this puts an undue burden on the family of the deceased. They need to learn the letter of the law, without any assistance, while they're in mourning. They also must submit all religious content themselves.
Unless the entire complaint is a complete fabrication (and I couldn't find anything claiming it is, which is how I found it in the first place), I believe the Houston National Cemetery is making it as difficult as possible to include religious content, regardless of the family's wishes.
Over the years I've thought about joining a veterans organization as a way of doing education for the next generation of kids coming up. Every time I think that, some crap like this comes along! If not this, then the VFW inviting right-wing politicians to address their meetings after the same politicians dodged military service. If not that, then the American Legion trying to push their asinine flag-burning amendment (Image trying to enforce that? Would all flags be declared public and not private property? Would they be registered and have to be periodically inspected?). Then I learned that the American Legion was formed from World War One vets by wealthy backers to provide strikebreakers during labor disputes.
ReplyDeleteSo now I just say "Fugeddabowtitt!"
Tom, in FL
Religious beliefs or the lack thereof are a personal issue. One should have the right to believe whatever one feels but NO ONE should have the right to impose their religion on ANYBODY.
ReplyDeleteBtw, no surprise this happened in Texas.
The best thing to do is learn the truth. The information posted in this blog does not represent the whole truth in this matter. The fact is that family members of deceased military and veterans have always had the final say as to the type of funeral service they would expect. Families can and do request secular funeral services at times and if they choose to do so those who volunteer will honor their request. If there has been no request then the volunteer may feel free to offer whatever service they feel fits the occasion. The issue in Texas according to what has been published is that the VA cemetery director told volunteers and chaplains that they were not allowed to use the name of God or Jesus at military funerals.
ReplyDelete“The VFW and the American Legion say on at least four occasions in the past two months, VA officials told them prayer and religious speech could no longer be included in burial rituals they take part in at the Houston cemetery unless families submit a specific prayer or message in writing to Arleen Ocasio, the cemetery’s director.”
The claim was that Arleen Ocasio insisted on censoring prayers and messages before they could proceed and by so doing was attempting to regulate the type of speech that could be used during these military funerals. This move by Arleen Occasio put the government in a position of dictating what form of religious or non-religious terminology could be used in a VA cemetery; this action was a clear violation of the 1st amendment by a government official. Christians do not necessarily agree with the views of atheism but they will usually respect their right to freedom of religion; after all America is a melting pot of diverse religious beliefs yet we find a way to live and grow togather. None of us agrees on everything and there is always some one in the crowed who won’t like what everyone else likes that person is free to come or go, listen or not. If the atheist doesn’t believe in religion then religious symbols and speech should have no meaning to them. Most people in the world believe in some sort of deity and that is their right to do so. However since about 95% of the population of the world believes in some sort of deity I guess that means that atheist won’t be able to avoid hearing about them or seeing religious symbols no matter what. That’s the way it is.