Wednesday, October 16, 2013

Oprah Winfrey refuses to accept that long distance swimmer Diana Nyad is an Atheist because she experiences "awe." WTF?

Courtesy of Raw Story:

In a conversation with Nyad on the Oprah Winfrey Network’s Super Soul Sunday, Winfrey seemed baffled that the 64-year-old swimmer could be an atheist and “a person who is deeply in awe.” 

“I can stand at the beach’s edge with the most devout Christian, Jew, Buddhist, go on down the line, and weep with the beauty of this universe and be moved by all of humanity — all the billions of people who have lived before us, who have loved and hurt,” Nyad, who recently completed a swim from Cuba to Florida explained. “So to me, my definition of God is humanity and is the love of humanity.” 

“Well, I don’t call you an atheist then,” Winfrey replied. “I think if you believe in the awe and the wonder and the mystery that that is what God is. That is what God is. It’s not a bearded guy in the sky.” 

“It’s not bearded but I guess there is inference with God that there is presence, there is a — either a creator or an overseer,” Nyad pointed out. “I don’t criticize anybody. Because you know what? The definition of life is, we will never know.” 

She added that she saw no contradiction in being an atheist and being a spiritual person. 

“I think you can be an atheist who doesn’t believe in an overarching being who created all of this and sees over it,” Nyad said. “But there’s spirituality because we human beings, and we animals, and maybe even we plants, but certainly the ocean and the moon and the stars, we all live with something that is cherished and we feel the treasure of it.” 

Winfrey agreed: “Well, I believe that and feel that so deeply. It’s why every time I enter my yard or leave, I say, ‘Hello trees!’”

This may seem a minor thing but it REALLY irritates me.

And the reason why is because it is an example of this constant subliminal prejudice that people of faith have for those of us who are unwilling to suspend out disbelief long enough to accept the existence of ANY deity.

Now I consider Oprah Winfrey to be a relatively reasonable and intelligent woman, however there is not doubt that she sees the world from a very narrow perspective, and is unable to recognize that somebody who does not believe in God can feel awe, or amazement, or joy.

The reason I named this blog "The Immoral Minority" is because THAT was the label given to me by the Religious Right, and then I set out to prove that not only was that assumption incorrect, but also that many of those Fundamentalists who lay claim to a superior morality are anything but moral.

I think I have had some great success in that endeavor.

However the other important thing I wish to convey is that those of us who are non-deists are just as moral, or immoral, as those who hide behind the veil of Christianity.

I want to establish that a religious label is no indicator of the type of person who wears it. And further I want to point out that those who constantly tout their religiosity should be the FIRST to fall under suspicion.

"For no man is less moral than he who wears it like a badge upon his chest and consistently draws it to the attention of all who cross his path."

 Let me state for the record that I was overcome with awe the day my daughter first entered this world, that I have often been caught watching clouds lazy drift across a pale blue sky, and that there have been sunsets and sunrises that literally took my breath away.

I have lived, and loved, and sacrificed for others, just like all of those humans, both religious and nonreligious, who came before me. And I have done all of that as a proud, ethical, and deeply moral Atheist.

27 comments:

  1. I think there’s an old image of atheists as curmudgeons who can’t acknowledge the beauty of anything, and Oprah may have held that image. It sounds like she got schooled, but in a very nice way that she accepted. Nothing wrong with that.

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    1. Anonymous7:38 AM

      I agree and I thought it was a very interesting discussion. Thanks for sharing, Gryphen.

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  2. Anonymous4:51 AM

    And who does Oprah think she is to decide that Nyad isn't an atheist? If Nyad calls herself an atheist, then Oprah should respect that.

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    1. Anonymous5:47 AM

      This is the problem I always have had with Oprah. Yes, she's self-made, done many wonderful things and helped a lot of people, but she is overly preachy and many times talks over people as if her view is the only one that matters.

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    2. Anonymous7:10 AM

      "but she is overly preachy and many times talks over people as if her view is the only one that matters."
      ****
      Exactly! What's it to her what Nyad thinks or feels?
      Oprah is a Rich know-it-all.
      What Oprah is doing is the same thing as "witnessing" pushing her belief system on someone else! And that is wrong.

      Delete
  3. Anonymous5:33 AM

    Rock on, dear Gryph. Your morality comes through, LOUD and CLEAR!

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  4. Anonymous5:39 AM

    I'm not even an atheist - I consider myself an agnostic - and ITA. Oprah strikes me as someone who needs the pretense of Gahd to feel even more special.

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  5. Yes, this is one of the few times I completely disagree with Oprah. I am not sure I am ready to label myself an athiest, but I probably might as well. Awe, wonder, morality..that isn't exclusive to religion or god. That was an ignorant statement. I am surprised it came out of her mouth.

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  6. Yes, this is one of the few times I completely disagree with Oprah. I am not sure I am ready to label myself an athiest, but I probably might as well. Awe, wonder, morality..that isn't exclusive to religion or god. That was an ignorant statement. I am surprised it came out of her mouth.

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  7. fromthediagonal6:44 AM

    Perfect comment, Gryphen. Especially this one:

    "I have lived, loved and sacrificed FOR others" (emphasis mine).

    When one leaves out the word "FOR", the whole sentence takes on the opposite meaning, and is descriptive of religious practices since ancient history which is one form or another continues to this day: The sacrifice of other living beings, whether in rituals or wars, to appease the fearful believers' God(s)... and Yes, this holds true for the religions of today.



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  8. Sarah6:58 AM

    I know many who consider themselves atheist and most all of them would offer a slightly different definition of the term; there is much confusion and the recent in-your-face atheism discussions are not much help in that regard.

    Many of those I know obviously believe in some "power" whether or not they want to call it a god....all leading to more confusion. Example: maybe a person's "power" is the wisdom and goodness (or badness, or superiority, or whatever) of humankind. Some folks believe in such to the exclusion of any other power. Let 'em have at, but then calling themselves atheist simply muddles the water further where there is no clear understanding of the term. Is he or ain't he?

    Darned if I care either way but the yammer about such IS beginning to wear on me.

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  9. Anonymous7:14 AM

    What Sarah 6:58 said.

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  10. Anonymous7:22 AM

    Doesn't Oprah Winfrey understand that believing in God or not believing in God is a choice that each person makes for him or herself? And it's a choice that is personal. She has no right to force anyone to say anything.
    Beaglemom

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  11. Leland7:23 AM

    I think that what really tweaks my butt is the idea held by many of those who believe in a god that we who are either atheist or agnostic don't believe in anything.

    Is it really so hard to grasped the idea that just because we don't believe as THEY do doesn't mean we don't believe in ANYTHING. It's like a wall beyond which they cannot see. As if accepting that we DO believe in something means that what THEY believe will be destroyed.

    Oh well. It's not really a big issue with me, anyway. As long as they don't try to proselytize or run me out of town on a rail or try to destroy the intent and meaning of the Constitution.

    Unfortunately, far too many of these assholes DO try that and ARE TRYING to do that!

    It's just fear. I understand that. But huge numbers of people at least TRY to overcome their fears. Why won't they?

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    1. Anonymous7:51 AM

      Leland, really nice post. It expresses my feelings on being an atheist to a T. Thanks!

      Delete
    2. Anonymous8:43 AM

      "Oh well. It's not really a big issue with me, anyway. As long as they don't try to proselytize or run me out of town on a rail or try to destroy the intent and meaning of the Constitution."

      Exactly, Leland, and it seemed to me that's what Nyad was also saying. I might add I don't care what others believe unless they try to dispute hard scientific facts that will help us better take care of our planet- whomever/whatever created it.

      Delete
  12. Anonymous8:16 AM

    Atheism is often understood, at least by non-atheists, as an absence of spirituality. I don't think Oprah was rejecting Nyah's use of the word 'atheist' but rather promoting discussion of an expanded understanding of the word from Nyah's perspective.

    Oprah's 'God' = Nyad's 'spirit/soul/energy'

    I know many non-deists who use the word 'God' in the same way.

    Labels, in general, are confusing.
    Have you seen this?
    http://killingthebuddha.com/mag/dogma/atheists-a-rant/


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  13. Anonymous8:33 AM

    The thing is this -- culturally speaking, the definition of "God" is changing. Much of our culture -- and you included, Gryph -- have stuck in their heads that disgusting, thundering, murderous old dude of the Old Testament. He's been pretty well promoted for the last couple millennia to the point where most people seem to think that he IS GOD. Yet other and older religions have had different concepts of what God is... concepts that, if spoken of in modern terms, would use words more like "power," perhaps combined with "vast consciousness." Everyone who expresses either their belief or disbelief in God speaks from their own version of what that word means to them.

    So I've learned over time not to get hung up over a word...

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  14. Anonymous11:19 AM

    Can a woman be paternalistic? When I have told certain religious people who come to my front door that I do not believe in a god, they often respond the same way. "Oh you don't really feel that way, you aren't really an atheist". Nothing pisses me off more! I would never contradict a person who told me that they were a Christian. Telling someone that they don't know their own mind is incredibly insulting!

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    1. Leland1:17 PM

      11:19, I completely agree with you. It is insulting and an attempt at belittling and denigrating what I believe just so they can attempt to convert "the heathen". When someone tries to pull that crap on me, they have crossed a line and get "both barrels" so to speak.

      I had one of those types come to my door - once. When I got finished telling him MY opinion of what HE thought of MY beliefs he practically ran down my sidewalk to my gate! (No one from his proselytizing bunch has EVER been back!)

      Trying to push your beliefs on me is NOT a good idea!

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  15. Anonymous1:07 PM

    Not long ago, my book club was discussing The Book Thief, which is a young adult novel narrated by Death (and truly one of the best books I've ever read). Anyway, a woman in the group said, "Well, I'm an atheist" and proceeded to relate how her belief system impacted her understanding of the book. Then we heard the same from one of our Christian and one of our Jewish members. And all I could think was how wonderful it was that we could sit in a room and share our beliefs/world views without judgement or the Spanish Inquisition. We all felt "awed" by the transformative nature of the book.

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  16. Anonymous1:59 PM

    I'm not prejudiced against you because you're an atheist. I've grown to be prejudiced against you because you're such a jerk about it.

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  17. Anonymous5:24 PM

    O’s off her meds…

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  18. Anita Winecooler5:30 PM

    I like Oprah, but wasn't one of those glassy eyed true believers in her talk show audience who burst into tears when she had an "aha" moment.(And if they made the "Oprah Giveaway Lottery" of shows, they were truly floating out of their seats) She's really really REALLY good at giving marital and family advice, yet has avoided the institution. Smart Woman.
    I related MORE with Diana's response than Oprah's "Shock" that she could experience "awe" as an atheist because her experience closely describes mine.
    Thanks for posting this, your description of experiencing awe at the birth of your child is universally understood. We all laugh and cry in the same language.

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  19. "But there’s spirituality because we human beings, and we animals, and maybe even we plants, but certainly the ocean and the moon and the stars, we all live with something that is cherished and we feel the treasure of it.”

    This is treading into a gray area, what she's describing I don't consider atheism. There's a tremendous amount of spirituality in what she's describing, and the connection between humans and plants and animals, which to me, is very close to the religions of pre-civilization. Living in the natural world, in small groups, that's the kind of religion humans had. The only difference is, they feared a lightening storm and attributed it to a higher power, and we don't. But the spirituality is the same.

    What she IS saying, is she doesn't believe in the Gods of any of the books - bible, koran, any writings in India, etc. She is a child of the universe, of the land, a part of the wonder of things, and connected to the stars and the sea, and she can feel the breath of every tree and sigh of every snowflake. THAT is religion, in a sense.

    Atheism on the other hand, is about satisfaction with non-meaning, and non-spirituality. It's recognition of the physical world, down to it's smallest parts, and accepting the workings of the universe based strictly on natural laws and elements which have no purpose beyond what is measured, beyond their parameters. A snowflake is just a snowflake. My feelings about trees are just my feelings, which are a collection of electric impulses and chemicals, and do not change the nature or purpose of the tree. None of this is a bad thing, it's just what I consider atheism, and why I can't describe myself as one, even though I reject my birth religion, and any like them.

    What I think, is that we don't know. And what I feel, is that we are all connected, to everything, and it gets recycled over and over. There is destiny in the sense that there is a predictable pattern, and we are just a tiny part of it. If you watch a bicycle wheel, you're not a seer, but you can be pretty sure once one revolution is complete, the wheel will continue with another. Such is the universe, it moves, and we within it, and the breath of life is in everything, and we are changing and growing, and diminishing, and gathering again, and emerging as a new color, a new thought, a new texture.

    I'm convinced that people, as a species, are irrelevant. Something else will probably come along in time. But no one has shown me any evidence of the absence of a soul. It may be the thing, in fact, the glue, the muck, the energy, that powers the entire universe. Maybe this soul is "thought." Whatever you call it, it seems to run through it all. I don't see it in our faces, but I see it in the faces of animals, and in the stillness of nature, and so it must be in us, too. We just stopped seeing it,over the centuries, because in order to progress, we had to destroy what was around us. So there's that necessary disconnect.

    But I find it facinating that as complex as things are, or seem to be, everything, at closer look, is reduced to very few ingredients. Atoms, with their electrons and neutrons. Computer programs, with 1's and 0's. Genes, boiled down to four letters, A,G,C and T. None of that suggests deliberate design to me, but it does suggest that the stuff of life is more simple than we think, that we are more same than difference, that even more bizarrely,..we might even be the exact same thing, just different expressions if it. Maybe the idea of God is outdated anyway, maybe we're one entity, and we're all part of what is "God."

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