Courtesy of Slate:
Most of the coverage of the case has focused on Hobby Lobby's objection to the contraception itself and how, if the business prevails, its employees will have to pay out of pocket for things like birth control pills or IUDs. But, as Tara Culp-Ressler at ThinkProgress explained on Wednesday, Hobby Lobby and their co-plaintiff, Conestoga Wood Specialties, are also objecting to insurance plans covering "related education and counseling" for contraception. In other words, these for-profit businesses aren't just asking their female employees to pay for their own contraception, even though they are already paying for their own contraception by paying for their insurance coverage. These companies want to elbow their way into doctor's offices and call the shots on what doctors can and cannot say to Hobby Lobby and Conestoga Wood employees.
"Essentially, if Hobby Lobby and Conestoga Wood are successful, they’ll win the right to refuse to extend coverage for doctor’s visits that include discussion about certain forms of contraception, like IUDs or the morning after pill," Culp-Ressler writes. That would probably be something insurance companies could deal with if there was such thing as a specialized doctor's appointment to only discuss contraception. In the real world, however, most women receive their contraception counseling at general gynecological appointments or annual checkups. You go in, get your blood taken, get a Pap smear, get your breasts squeezed, and then your doctor asks what you use for contraception, and you walk out with a prescription in hand. If Hobby Lobby has its way, by merely acknowledging the birth control pill during that appointment, your doctor would render your entire visit ineligible for coverage by your health care plan.
"This isn't something that generally is billed separately from a health care visit," Adam Sonfield, a senior public policy associate for the Guttmacher Institute, explained to me over the phone. "As far as we can tell, the only way to implement this objection would be to say that if your visit is going to be reimbursed by your health care plan, then your doctor can't talk to you about certain topics your employer objects to."
It's unclear if the plaintiffs just haven't considered how unworkable their ask is, or if marginalizing contraception consultation by making it too fraught to be discussed during a standard doctor's appointment is the intention here.
No I think that was DEFINITELY the intention here.
These Fundamentalists believe that their faith gives them the responsibility to enforce their version of morality wherever they see fit.
So if this ruling goes in Hobby Lobby's favor then even a discussion with your doctor about contraception during a visit would mean you could not bill it to your company's insurance policy.
To be clear that means that an employer could, in some ways, dictate what takes place in an employee's bedroom. Married or not.
I cannot help but think this is the employer's version of purity balls.
In my area, Hobby Lobby took over a cheap-furniture store that went out of business. I went in there once when they first opened, realized it was the Wal-Mart of craft stores (really cheap, made-in-China tacky stuff), and never went back. I am not surprised to learn they also want to forbid women from making their own medical decisions.
ReplyDeleteI refuse to shop at Hobby Lobby!
ReplyDeleteThe Supreme Court is going to rule that an individual has a right to their religious beliefs, but those beliefs cannot be forced upon others. They will also say religion cannot cherry pick what medical science they want to adopt and things they outright reject. 6-3 decision against the Plaintiffs
ReplyDeleteUh huh. I can just see them telling that to the catholic church - AND being able to enforce it.
DeleteShould these fools be allowed to get away with it? In my opinion, no, because as you say, it is a religious question. But that's a two edged sword and the churches will sue and win. They SHOULDN'T in my book, because they are, as you say, forcing their beliefs on others, but it probably will go in favor of the churches.
The question is whether or not they can tell NON-religious groups they can discriminate, which is, of course, what those groups want, even though it is illegal to discriminate based on gender.
If they DO lose, I wouldn't be surprised in the least if they closed their doors. They don't need the money, after all.
I agree with a few others here. I refuse to go inside HL and they are purveyors of cheap trash anyway. So it will really only negatively affect their employees. And since they obviously don't give a DAMN about them, they won't be bothered by that.
Oh. And seagull-filet will follow suit as well, since their "beliefs" state they CAN discriminate as part of their religion.
Again -- this had nothing to do with faith; notice that there's no objection to covering penis pumps and Viagra and vasectomies. How come they don't care about vasectomies getting covered?
ReplyDeleteAnd let's say I'm a business owner who doesn't want to "pay" for my employees sexual activities - or male forms of contraceptives like vasectomies. How well is that going to work out when I tell my male employees that their employer covered health care will not cover that little blue pill?
DeleteAt the rate these pigs are going, the next thing they willow ant is control over whether or not a woman can get her tubes tied or her ovaries removed!
ReplyDeleteTHEN they can start on the men and THEIR ability to get fixed. But then again, even they are probably smart enough to recognize THAT won't happen for a long time because MEN are currently the majority in Congress!
**just putting this here to bring it to Gryph's attention**
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPlB7KGVSD8
One of the things I find most disturbing about the whole Hobby Lobby thing is that the owners aren't members of some obscure super strict non-denominational evangelical church; they are actually run -the-mill Southern Baptists.
ReplyDeleteI used to work at Hobby Lobby. I can promise you, other than selling lots of crosses and playing Muzak hymns, there's very little religion that actually goes on with the company. I opened a store, and the GM gathered us for a short prayer before it opened. That was it. I never heard Jesus mentioned again.
ReplyDeleteIt wasn't a bad company to work for: they started at better than minimum wage, and a couple of months after I quit my friends who still worked there said that they were getting raises and new people were getting started at $10 a hour, which is nice.
However, the BULK of their crap comes from China, a place where birth control and abortion and non-Christians abound, and the only reason they do business there is because they make a lot of money doing it. So no, they don't get to deny contraception coverage to employees in the US because their beliefs apparently aren't strong enough to make them stop doing business with China.
This is all public posturing of the worst kind.
Good comment. It's time to tell Hobby Lobby to stop buying products from a place where they do practice birth control and provide abortions.
DeleteThey only want everyone to follow their religious beliefs if following them saves the company money, in this case lower medical insurance costs.
DeleteIn the case of purchasing products from China, following their religious beliefs and changing their suppliers to a country which adheres to Christian rules would cost them more and cause them to lose money.
As usual, the right wingers are masters of hypocrisy.
So it follows that if your employer is a Christian Scientist, they can refuse to cover all doctor and medical expenses?
ReplyDeleteJehova Witness will not pay for blood transfusions. It's a slippery slope the Supremes will not allow.
DeleteNo one is stopping the Christian Scientist or the Jehovah Witness from refusing medical care in order to practice their religion. But, I don't want them telling me what to believe or interfering with my right to have medical care. I suggest that Hobby Lobby draft a contract for each employee, stating that when they work at Hobby Lobby, they have to follow Hobby Lobby's owner's religion. Then, I would like to see them defend that contract in court. That's what they are doing by imposing their religious beliefs on employees who didn't realize, when they first joined HL, that they were going to have to practice the HL religion, too.
DeleteThe Christian Science Monitor, like any good, responsible employer, provides health insurance for its employees.
DeleteThere is a big difference between paying for the insurance police that will end what you consider a life, and a blood transfusion. You are comparing apples, and trying to smell the number 9.
DeleteChristian scientists believe in doctors, they worked hard to gain the knowledge they have, but believe that God is better at healing, since he made us all, in the first place.
This (abortion inducing drugs) is on the table because it stops the heart of another being. Some people have a sincerely held belief that it is wrong, and don't want to pay for it.
If you go to SCOTUSblog.com (Supreme Court of the US) you can read all about the case and follow it's progress. At the top of the blog is a box labeled This Week at the Court. You will see they are discussing this case. If you click on the underlined word "here" it will take you to a page explaining the background, filings and analysis of the case. Best way to follow what's going on at SCOTUS.
ReplyDeletei suppose bloodletting is still on the table, right?
ReplyDeleteoh for the ole medieval days where the sun rising was explained as a bunch of fire on the back of a chariot driven by some son of a god.
wouldn't it be nice to have a law that says your doctor should talk to you for more than three minutes? now THAT would improve health care.
Our former Prime Minister Pierre Trudeau famously said that the state has no business in the bedrooms of the nation. It is still as true as when he said it. I hope for freedom's sake that HL loses this case.
ReplyDeleteI don't think that the State has any place in the doctor's office, interfering with the conversation between patient and doctor. That's a private conversation protected by HIPPA, and the government should not be a part of it other than guaranteeing that the conversation is private.
DeleteIf the doctor did discuss birth control with his patient, who would know? That conversation is supposed to be private.
I think that Hobby Lobby may have gone a step too far when they added in the part about covering "related education and counseling". The SCOTUS, being as conservative and right wing as it is, MAY have found in favor of HL where contraceptive coverage is concerned, although I still think it's a slippery slope even the current Supreme Court may not want to travel.
ReplyDeleteHowever, allowing a private company to restrict the private discussions between a patient and her doctor is delving into extremely dangerous territory. HIPAA laws are extremely strict and this kind of judgement would provide employers with access into personal medical information that has been deemed private by law. I'm not sure how they could even see a way to legally enforce this.
Yes, it's a life and death situation, save the life of the pregnant mother or the unborn child. Is the fetus old enough to be delivered prematurely? Sorry, we can't talk about that. What will happen to me if I continue to carry this baby to term? Will I die? How will it affect my ability to have more children? Sorry, we can't talk about that either. How much do I have to pay you to get some medical advice around here?
DeleteI agree , if Hobby Lobby was so offended by birth control and such they wouldn't do business with China. They really don't care as long as they get cheap labor, big profits. Healthcare should have been one payer and taken out of the employers hands, but they all fought against that.
ReplyDeleteDoes the VA Gent's comment have anything to do with this case or are there other cases before the Supreme Court that he could be referring to?
ReplyDeletevirginiagentleman1 Polarbearpapa • an hour ago
Yeah, that's where I'm at with him. Somehow I have the impression that he did a JOHN ROBERTS if ya know what I mean.
On the way in to the hospital yesterday I heard a bit of news that startled me. It seems that the Obama admin and NSA had a little something nasty on the Chief justice, and in return for a favorable ruling, it would be 'forgotten'.
Folks who attended the final ruling said that Roberts face was swollen, as if he had been crying all the night before. If this is true, the Roberts betrayed ALL of us to save his own unworthy ass!
No C4P are of the belief that Pres.Obama blackmailed Roberts into voting for Obamacare. The wackos are eating it up, but this story came out Feb 2013 and never went any further.
DeleteWas Chief Justice John Roberts Blackmailed To Support ObamaCare?
http://patriotaction.net/profiles/blogs/was-chief-justice-john-roberts-blackmailed-to-support-obamacare
And don't feel too sorry for Va Gent: He said that his wife was home back to her old feisty self. So is he. "
ReplyDeletevirginiagentleman1 • an hour ago You meant the "NEW" Islamic Republic of England didn't you?"
The majority of the C4Pers spout Bible scripture in one breath and hate filled bile in the next. They are as ignorant as their idol Palin. I just can't work up any sympathy for 'ol Gent and his ugly soul.
DeleteWhat is going on in America right now just amazes me! White, fat assed, moon bellied, aging Republicans are dictating what women can do w/or for their bodies?
ReplyDeleteI'm way past child bearing age, but when I was, my contraception pills were cheaply derived from across the border (w/o a doctor's prescription!). I took them for years that way and paid little and never, ever got pregnant! I was NOT the only one using this method - it was done by many!
I would think the same thing could be done today and then there would be zero worry about the insurance companies, the Supreme Court, etc. Paying out of pocket (much cheaper than in the USA) was a non issue to me especially knowing I would not get pregnant if said pills were taken properly.
Work around them folks!!! I would guess it can still be done today.
How many christian employees have told their employer they do not want contraception coverage in their medial plans before ACA? NONE!! So what's the issue here, Christians?
ReplyDeleteInteresting tidbit from Mother Jones. It seems as though Hobby Lobby's didn't always have a religious objection to covering contraceptives for their employees.
ReplyDelete"The company admits in its complaint that until it considered filing the suit in 2012, its generous health insurance plan actually covered Plan B and Ella (though not IUDs). The burden of this coverage was apparently so insignificant that God, and Hobby Lobby executives, never noticed it until the mandate became a political issue."
I can't imagine that will help their case much.
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/03/hobby-lobby-supreme-court-obamacare
Hobby Lobby is ridiculous. They had NO objections until Obamacare came along.
DeleteI bet that sometime (in the past or now) someone in the HobbyLobby family is on the pill.
DeleteBy Hobby Lobby's reasoning, they shouldn't have to pay wages, since wages can (and often are) used to pay for birth control.
ReplyDeleteI have been following this case, and most of the assertions are incorrect. Of the 20 required contraceptive that are mandated to be covered, 4 are what 's called abortafacions (spelling could be off). These 4 abortion inducing drugs are all that is being disputed.
ReplyDeleteContraceptives have always been covered.
And therein lies their biggest stupidity. The morning after pill (2 different brands) is not an abortifacient....it prevents implantation. It does not cause an abortion. The other objection is two IUD's.
DeleteNONE of the ABOVE cause abortions. Hobby Lobby is just blowing smoke out of his ass.
I also resent the pharmacist who refuses to fill the prescription for the morning after pill on the grounds that he/she does not believe in abortion. The job description of being a pharmacist is to fill the prescriptions, not to preach their religion. If they couldn't or wouldn't fill all prescriptions, they should not have taken the job. They could work for a drug company doing research or a dozen different things instead of interfering in peoples' lives.
DeleteHobby Lobby will lose. Corporations do not have religious beliefs. By incorporating, the owners of HL protect themselves from personal liability. They cannot then force their personal beliefs on others. The Supreme Court will recognize that fundamental truth. At least I hope so.
ReplyDeleteRemember Citizens United? Corporations are people. If SCOTUS goes by that ruling, why can't corporations have religious beliefs also..CU was a horseshit decision all around!
DeleteThis just blatantly exposes the mistake Scotus made in Citizens United and the mistake they made allowing the clerk's mistake about corporations being people to stand. Yes, that clerical entry should NEVER have been allowed to stand.
DeleteCitizens United is an embarrassment to this otherwise relatively balanced court. That decision was just plain wrong and I don't think the court has the votes to expand it. The court has reversed itself when it has been wrong in the past; it took less than 20 years to reverse its ruling on sodomy laws and despite numerous attempts at end- rounds, Roe v. Wade still stands. Besides, Scalia can't live forever, LOL. Given the likelihood of a Hilary Clinton presidency, I think the court will get more liberal over time. YMMV.
DeleteFU Hobby Lobby
ReplyDeleteThank You, Citizens United! Corporations are people, my friends, and now they can discriminate on the basis of Religion if this passes. Say there's a business owned by Muslims and they want to shut the store on their sabbath, make women cover their bodies, start each day with a call to prayer from the Quoran?
ReplyDeleteIf businesses are people and can legally discriminate based on religion, can businesses vote? Or only hire people from one party?
This has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with contraception. They're using this as a back door to slip in their christian agenda.
We don't have Hobby Lobby in our area, and I'm not a crafter, but I do occasionally purchase art material from Michaels. It looks like an upscale dollar store for the most part.
GOTV, folks, or we're screwed.
"These companies want to elbow their way into doctor's offices and call the shots on what doctors can and cannot say to Hobby Lobby and Conestoga Wood employees. "
ReplyDeleteHow do they plan on enforcing this?
Do they intend to have a "doctor police department"? Are you suppose to take the doctor police person with you to your appointment? Are you suppose to record the conversation? Are they choosing which doctors you can see?
They'll just blanketly refuse to cover any doctor's visits for women, just in case anything about contraception was mentioned.
DeleteYa'll are being fed a line a good, and you're falling for it, hook, line, and sinker!
ReplyDeleteAs someone above pointed out, they do NOT want to ban contraceptives. As a person, if you believe that life begins at conception (right or wrong in your mind doesn't matter, just hear me out), it is understandable to not want to pay for someone to end that life.
They aren't saying you can't take it. Besides that one is over the counter, anyway. They are NOT saying you can't discuss it with your doctor. They just don't want to pay the insurance costs in covering it.
Both sides need to start thinking for themselves on EVERY issue, not just this one!
I saw a post above that links to SCOTUS...Please go look it up and read for yourselves.
A line of goods! Stupid auto correct!
DeleteThose in control of the Government making laws for the United States have taken it upon themselves to destroy the religious freedom that this country was build upon. The U S has become the great nation it is because of the biblical principles upon which it was founded. If this freedom is taken away this Nation will fall. If one takes time to compare all the other countries around us with the success of the US it should be as clear as the nose on your face that it was because of the principles on which our forefathers based their decisions. I stand firm for Hobby Lobby and it is one of the greatest shopping outlets in our area.
ReplyDeleteHORSE SHIT!
DeleteThe only people trying to take away religious freedom are those fundies who want to turn this into a christian nation. Their yelling and screaming boils down simply to this: I want to practice my religion on YOUR property and keep you from doing anything about it. THAT'S what those idiots want. Idiots? yeah. With SP at the head.
Also, WHAT biblical principals? The Founding Fathers were NOT christian! Oh, some were, of course, but for the most part they were DEISTS!
Whether you want to accept it or not, this country was created with the idea that ANY religion could be practiced without the government attempting to step in. You need to read Jefferson, buddy. Most especially, his letter to the Danbury Baptist Association written in 1882.
And a better set of history books! Ones that DON'T come from your church.