Monday, August 16, 2010

The New York City unhallowed ground and the "Ground Zero Mosque" that wasn't.


The more I think about this "controversy" concerning the Islamic Cultural Center, the attacks on September 11, 2001, and the opportunism of the GOP, the more pissed off I have become!

There so much bullshit piled up over this issue that it almost rivals in height the Twin Towers themselves.

First off the area around Ground Zero, should NOT be considered 'hallowed ground", period!  That is the terrible location where a group of cowards murdered thousands of innocent people who were doing nothing more than living their lives, and working at their jobs.  We should no more "set it apart for holy use" or "respect it greatly",  than we should consecrate the ground where a drive by shooting took place.

Yes we should feel a sense of sadness when we walk by Ground Zero, as well as anger at those who committed the murders, but we should not make it a shrine. Nor, in my opinion should we build a monument to immortalize the terrorist attack.  I know that many of you will disagree with me, but what kind of message does that send to other potential terrorists if we build a monument to the most destructive terrorist attack in American history?

And by the way not to get too far into conspiracy land, but personally I still have a LOT of questions surrounding the attacks on 9-11 and just who was, and who was not, responsible for them.  Yes I know that is a monstrous can of worms to be opening but, speaking just for myself, I would like there to be an entirely new, independent investigation into all of the questions surrounding that terrible day before we start calling any place "hallowed ground" or building memorials to it.

However if I, just for a moment, suspend my skeptical nature and accept the findings of the 9-11 commission as factual, that still means we have allowed our attackers to completely hijack this country for the last nine years, cost us billions of dollars to fund two unnecessary wars, spend even more billions to beef up our security in anticipation of further attacks, and create enough panic to inspire the American government to spy on its own citizens and use torture for the first time in this nations' history. And now we are going to proclaim blocks of New York real estate as "hallowed ground" and then build a monument to celebrate that successful attack? I am sorry but I find that incredibly insulting to the memories of the Americans who lost their lives on that fateful day.

Far better in my opinion to simply rebuild the twin towers, or a similar structure, and move on with our lives allowing those that sought to destroy our way of life, or damage our hopes for the future, to see that they did neither. But hey that is just me, feel free to disagree as you see fit.

Secondly there is no rational reason NOT to allow this group to build their community center in the old Burlington Coat Factory.  If the problem is that having certain types of businesses near Ground Zero "shames" the memory of the victims of 9-11 then how do New Yorkers justify the two strip clubs, trashy lingerie store, and bookie joint that are already doing a brisk business in that same area?

However if the problem is the idea that we must keep MUSLIMS from building anything near the so-called "hallowed ground" then it seems that certain people, and I won't name names,  have no freaking idea what it really means to live in a country which was founded on the very idea of religious freedom. (Unless of course there is another possible ulterior motive for their blatant intolerance and xenophobia.)

Thirdly, the President did NOT walk back his remarks about the cultural center! He addressed the matter with great intelligence and understanding on Friday, then after a bunch of knee jerk reactionaries and GOP operatives attacked him and claimed that he was actually in favor of building the cultural center near Ground Zero he felt the need to clarify his words on Saturday.

Obviously the President of the United States has to take into consideration the feelings, however unsupported by reason, of ALL of his constituents.  So Obama was simply clarifying that he supported the RIGHT to build the center wherever the business partners chose to, while also letting everybody know that he was not going to take sides on whether it was a compassionate choice to make, especially considering how inflamed some people's passions have become over the issue.

However I am NOT the President of the United States so let me give my opinion of the "wisdom" of the people attempting to build this community center.

What they are doing is EXACTLY the right thing to do. They have as much right to live, work, and worship in the area around Ground Zero, AS ANY OTHER RELIGIOUS COMMUNITY. The people on those planes were not Muslims, they were terrorists, because the minute they chose to kill themselves, and the innocent people with them, they had broken one of the most precious tenets of their religious faith and could no longer be considered true to the Islamic faith that they claimed to revere.

Therefore it is the right, or perhaps even the obligation, of those who are followers of the Quran to demonstrate their desire to model the true face of their religion by offering a place, so close to a location used to condemn their religious faith, where people of ALL religious backgrounds and ethnicities may come and learn about Islam

At its core Islam, much like Christianity, is a religion of peace, and don't its followers have the right to remind people of that fact?

71 comments:

  1. Anonymous2:10 PM

    Gryphen, I applaud your post. You said what had to said and what many of us feel. I have nothing to add other than ask "is this project really a mosque? I thought it was a community center."

    Anyway, cheers for doing this post and doing it well.

    - ks sunflower

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  2. SME1312:17 PM

    Now the fear mongering has escalated to telling the lie the center plans to open on 9/11/2011 which is a complete lie. It will take at least 3 to 5 years to build and no opening date has even been discussed.

    The building will be a complete community center that house a 500-seat auditorium, a swimming pool, a restaurant, and a bookstore performing arts center, fitness center, basketball court, childcare services, art exhibitions, bookstore, culinary school, food court and yes a Mosque/prayer room. It would provide 150 full-time jobs, 500 part-time jobs, and an investment of more than $100 million in infrastructure in the city’s financial district. And there has been a Mosque just a couple blocks from this one that has been there for over 40 years, not once has there every been an issue with it. NOT ONCE!!!!!! If this community center had been built without a Mosque and a Mosque added later no one would have said a word. This is just the right wing trying to start more shit just as they always do.

    We have seen over and over again how Catholic Priests have sexually abused thousands and thousands of children but I don’t see anyone saying we shouldn’t build a Catholic church near a school or a daycare center or demanding existing ones be torn down. We have some Baptists preachers praying for Obama to die and no one is saying don’t build a Baptist church near the Capital.

    These so called Christians that are so determined to protect our constitution are the same ones constantly trying to rewrite the constitution and change all they don’t personally agree with. Palin and her groupies are screaming for smaller government yet she keeps begging our President to step in and stop this. Maybe she needs to pick a fricking side and stick to it, just as all the right wing nuts need to do.

    Most important to all of this is people need to stop the bullshit and accept we DO NOT VOTE ON RIGHTS, their likes and dislikes make no difference when it comes to EVERYONE’S rights.

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  3. Anonymous2:21 PM

    Well said, sir! Well said! I agree 100%!!

    I was having this very same debate on Facebook just today.

    Not to copy/paste, but it still bears repeating:

    "Would you be opposed to a Roman Catholic Cathedral built on the site of the former Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City? Most Americans would look at that as pious, a show of respect for those lives lost there and remorse... that it happened.

    But, Timothy McVeigh was Roman Catholic.

    All too often we, as a species, pick out something that a particular group of people share that we don't... and then stick the label of that small group of people to everyone who shares that particular trait.

    It would be like accusing everyone of Irish descent as being Terrorists, because the IRA is a political group with a long history of terrorism, as late as 1960. Or Catholics. Pick your poison.

    Or for a more recent example, the Scott Roeder killing of Abortion Doctor George Tiller.

    And if anyone wants to blame Islam for those teachings, well... Christianity is far from free of it's own blemishes. What about the Crusades? Or the Spanish Inquisition? Salem Witch Trials? The KKK? As Gandhi once said, "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." For a full list of modern Christian Terrorism, visit http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_terrorism

    Or, to put it in more graphic terms... Remember the Holocaust? How all of Germany and the surrounding countries that it influenced decided that Jewish people in particular, and anyone not Perfectly Healthy, Straight, Aryan and Christian in general, were the cause of all of the problems in the world? An entire racial and ethical "cleansing" was the result of this unthinking bias... and the precipitation of the current crisis between Israel and Pakistan because no "civilized' country would accept the refugees en masse.

    And the pattern continues.

    Islam and Christian teachings are not so very dissimilar. They share our Bible, with a few additions. Just like Christians share the Jewish bible... with the addition of the New Testament. For a full compare and contrast between Islam and Christianity... visit http://www.religioustolerance.org/comp_isl_chr.htm

    Blind Hate leads to Hate. Knowing what it is we are truly against, putting the true label on what we are trying to stop is key to this. We all know this. It's not Islam we are against. It is a small group of extremists known as Al Qaeda and the Taliban."

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  4. Anonymous2:24 PM

    These protesters are simpletons. If only they understood that the perversion of Islam and 9/11 was also an insult to most muslims in America. But no. To them, muslim = something foreign = 9/11. The degree to which they've been brainwashed over the past 9 years by the Bush admin and Fox is astounding. My 2 y/o child thinks with more complexity than they do. Seriously.

    -- Malachi

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  5. Anonymous2:28 PM

    The two signs held up by those ignoramuses in the photo accompanying your post says it all.

    To the dickhead on the left: actually, building a mosque near the Twin Towers is like building a church near Auschwitz. This is about the RELIGION of the perpetrators of those two acts of evil, and the men behind Auschwitz were Christians.

    To the idiot on the right: Well, honey, I guess until the Saudis start letting women drive, you need to turn over the keys to your car, right? I mean, if our behavior is going to be determined by the laws of other countries, lets apply the standard across the board.

    Islam is a religion of peace and tolerance. Because Moslems are also human, there have been exceptions. But there have been churches in Egypt, Morocco, Palestine, Lebanon, Syria, and Jordan for over a thousand years. Guess how many mosques there were in Christian Europe from 1492- 1800? That's right: none.

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  6. Randall2:30 PM

    Assholes like Gingrich, Limbaugh, Palin, et. al. know damn well (ok, maybe not Palin because she's an idiot) that this whole outrage over the "hallowed ground of 911" is bullshit.

    They're using it to make political hay.

    They are the worst kind of human beings: ones that are shamelessly willing to sell their own personal dignity and honor for short-term personal, political gain.

    (Ok, maybe Palin does fit in there after all - but she's still an idiot.)

    The sad part is that those two holding the signs probably are just stupid - as are everyone else jumping on the "no to the mosque at ground zero" crowd.

    They're too stupid and/or ignorant to understand the Constitution and the freedoms it represents so in an emotional over-reaction they're ready to throw it all away.

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  7. Anonymous2:35 PM

    As one compares the message that you send out Gryphen, to the one that has been tweeted from the Quitter-Tweeter, one is left with the smallness of her message, and the largeness of yours.

    It is apparent that this has been simmering for a while in your thoughts, and the result, in words, is nothing short of brilliant.

    Bravo for bringing reason and truth into the sea of lies and fear-mongering. Somebody HAS GOT TO DO IT, to call out the hate merchants on their propaganda and blatant misinformation, spin and fabrications, or we will have mass hysteria before we know it, based on absolutely NOTHING that is real, just a whole lot of made up stories, designed to provoke and stir the pot of intolerance. Thank you for your words.

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  8. Anonymous2:38 PM

    Today on the Diane Rehm she had three ministers, Christian, Muslim and Jewish discussing this situation.

    All three were saying the community center would bring the neighborhood together, and HELP inter-faith relations.

    Both the issues of religious and equal rights for ALL CITIZENS, not just white, straight christians will come back and bite the GOP on the ass for throwing the Prop8 and Zero Mosque tantrums, IMHO.

    Both of these arguments boil down to "because that's the way I feel about it" - not backed up by any facts or Constitutional Law.

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  9. Anonymous2:50 PM

    I loved your article. I agree with everything you said which isn't like me. I find myself thinking you may be my long lost twin. The more we fight this non-issue (my opinion), the sooner we can get on with issues that affect our ability to improve the FUBAR Bush left us with.

    Live and let live. The more we fight this building the more we look like a society of religious zealots that generates hatred and intolerence witch leads to death and violence. Isn't that what we were fighting against in the middle east? Bunch of crazy hypocrits them GOPers.

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  10. Anonymous2:51 PM

    In the future, I think people will look at the 9/11 Commission with the same regard they do the Warren Commission. And GWB will be recognized as having been able to prevent the disaster...

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  11. I guess the protester didn't know that there IS a church near Auschwitz, or that a number of Holocaust victims were not Jewish.

    Fine post, Gryphen.

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  12. Anonymous3:00 PM

    To Anonymous 2:17: thank you for the details and thank you for your justifiable anger so well stated. I agree with you wholeheartedly!

    - ks sunflower

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  13. Anonymous3:07 PM

    Ahhh, Sacred Ground

    Welcome to the New York Dolls strip club, about a block from the proposed site of the Cordoba House Islamic cultural center.

    http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/2010/08/ahhh_sacred_ground.php

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  14. Virginia Voter3:09 PM

    This whole issue gives me a migraine, mainly because it should not even be an issue. If the City of New York approved the building permit, then it is case closed.

    But as we have seen for the past nine years, Republicans have hijacked 9/11 once again to score cheap short term political points. It may have worked in 2004, but think back to 2006 and 2008. That strategy backfired then, and it will again. Mark my words...

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  15. The sooner we all become realists and evolve beyond religion the better off the world will be.

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  16. London Bridges3:14 PM

    I hope the hate mongers go to court to stop it. Then they will have to give a reason. Then the people building the Mosque & complex will go on trial.

    What will their defense be? Proving that Muslims were not the ones who perpetrated the September 11, 2001 destruction.

    Finally, a real investigation into who caused these crimes.

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  17. Anonymous3:22 PM

    funny how Sarah is pretty silent about Bloombergs stance on this

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  18. Gryphen the Fact is that the President took the oath of office and in it he swore to "To protect and defend the Constitution of the United States".

    What burns my ass is that all to many conservatives as well as liberals that are demonizing Obama for upholding his oath.

    As he said he would not comment on the wisdom of building a mosque in the vicinity he did not back down on the principal he swore an oath to defend.

    The conservatives that are equating the building of a religious structure whether it is a place of worship or a community center to placing Nazi headquarters next to the hollocaust museum are simply grasping at straws and showing how desperate they really are. They are also playing to the hate based minority in our country and this to me is like playing with fire.

    I am so afraid for my country today as I see it heading down a slippery slope that could well set us back to being a 3rd world nation.

    Obama was elected fair and square unlike some of the more recent candidates I could name. But in the end he has still faced a prejudice that makes me feel like I was back in the 1960s again.

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  19. nikogriego3:32 PM

    I agree with the post, and don't believe in this "hallowed ground" idea. The best thing you said in the post was that a new investigation needs to be undertaken to find out who really brought down those buildings, because I assure you that it was not Al Qaeda, or Osama Bin Laden (dead since 12/15/01). The evidence of controlled demolitions is present and provable, and if you take into account Building 7, a 47 story tall skyscraper that was not hit by any plane, which fell into its own footprint at 5:20 p.m. at free-fall speed after sustaining minor damage, it is clear that the events of that day were perpetrated by people other than those identified by the Report, and most likely not even by Muslims. Read D.R. Griffin, or Dr. Steven Jones, or Architects and Engineers for 911 Truth.

    And how did those buildings turn to dust on the way down? What happened to the 47 interior columns of each building that were 22 inch thick steel? Jet fuel does not melt steel. It was a hoax designed to create a reason for endless conflict and endless profits in the Middle East, Christian and Jew against Muslim. And it has worked splendidly for the perpetrators. The controversy over the building of the Islamic Center is just more manifestation of this intended conflict.

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  20. Anonymous3:34 PM

    There is one big problem with what you wrote. Have you really studied Islam and read the Queran or are you repeating what you have heard. Because jihad is spoken ofbin the Queran and Mohammed the prophet does state all nonbelievers should be destroyed. Kids grow up in some (not all) Muslim countries being taught all Jews and Christians are Infidels and should be killed. Islam is actually not a peaceful religion, sorry. Do some more reading and you will see hatred and intolerance of others.
    That being said, The old testament also has a lot of violence in it.
    America is a country that accepts all religion and I am for this mosque. But something needs to stop the fundamentalist Moslem community from growing as it is growing.
    Many liberals are very naive about Arab countries and what children are being taught- try hatred and I tolerance. Unless you are in the small upper class who is educated at univ etc. In many places including in the Palestinian territories they are taught to hate Jews and Christians from a very young age.

    Oh I hear the naive coming soon. Those who argue based on false info. Those who preach about evil Israel without getting how many want the end of Israel not peace.. I used to be naive too until I visited the west bank and other Arab areas/countries as a journaliat and saw that children grew up learning to hate and trained to kill infidels. We Americans are infidels.

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  21. Anonymous3:45 PM

    Gryphen,
    I don't usually comment when I totally agree with someone else's post or comment, but you are dead-on target on this issue. I guess I'm still a Republican but this neocon bullshit pushed me off the wagon long ago. The GOP is showing a lack of substance in new ideas by using their parrots and attack dogs to create these diversions. Usually I can watch FBN for the entertainment value but their act has grown stale. I'm all for a limited role by government but neither of the parties is really for the people. I could even stomach the idea of Sarah Palin doing the dog n pony shows to raise funds for a 3rd party if she could limit her opinions to populist issues and quit pretending to be a expert on every goddam policy issue that surfaces. As a demagogue she is so lacking in substance, and without a real leader of the Tea Party movement will fail miserably and probably hurt the unity of the group and its cause for reform. But Sarah lacks the ability to see what her true skill sets are and at this rate will only enrich herself and feed her 'attention whore ego. I just needed to rant a little here, I guess, but I did want to send some kudos your way for having your finger on the pulse of what's really going on in the real world, and for speaking the truth and common sense to everyone who need to pay better attention and think rationally. Buzzkiller

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  22. Anonymous3:48 PM

    Thank you for this passionate post, Gryphen. Your wonderful rants keep me coming back here - several times a day, most days!

    I too have serious questions about 911, and it's not really being a conspiracy theorist to question them. My husband is an engineer, and he has serious questions too about the buildings allegedly burning the way they were said to have burnt, etc. Far too many disturbing questions that have never been fully answered. Not to mention Martin Bush, GW's brother, being the owner of the security firm tasked with keeping the Twin Towers secure, reports of strange men camped out on the upper floors weeks before the attacks, and worse. Then - Halliburton, Cheney's company, just HAPPENS to win all the contracts for rebuilding Iraq after we strike there.....why haven't any of these people been charged with war profiteering and crimes against humanity?

    But to even utter these thoughts in certain company is to be branded a loony and worse.

    Since when is perceiving that the "logic" behing how the attacks have been explained is full of holes equated with conspiracy? On the high school debate team, it's called finding fault with your opponent's facts so you can issue your own response poking holes in their flimsy presentation.

    We're not allowed to do that anymore, lest we be called lunatics, conspiracy theorists, and the like.

    I lost my country on 911. Not because of Middle Eastern terrorists, but because of the homegrown ones who were occupying the highest offices of the land (through voter fraud - but that's another can of worms.)

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  23. Anonymous3:49 PM

    Bravo Gryphen. It's about time someone pointed out the foolishness of making this "hallowed ground". Also, just a small point, they aren't even trying to build on ground zero, its blocks away from there. Which begs the question, how far away is far enough? My guess is, if the peebots had their way, the moon would be too close. Every religion has their extremists including or possibly especially Christians and yet, if you objectively look at the religions side by side, you would actually see they are all very similar.

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  24. Anonymous3:52 PM

    I wonder how lemming #1 and lemming #2 in the picture feel about a mall being built at their 'hallowed' ground! Must have missed those signs and protesters.

    From Bob Cesca's article:
    http://www.bobcesca.com/blog-archives/2010/08/fk_the_hallowed.html?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

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  25. Anonymous3:55 PM

    Thanks for this post.

    As usual the republicans are whipping up hate and fear. I can't understand why these folks allow someone to tell them who they should be afraid of.

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  26. Virginia Voter4:03 PM

    BTW, Liz Cheney, ugly spawn of the Dark Overlord usually crawls out from under her rock to spew her usual fear mongering ny now. Darth must be really bad off after his most recent surgery. Liz never passes up a good Obama bashing.

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  27. tamarabelle4:03 PM

    I'm guessing that the people behind this community center no more identify with the Muslim perpetrators of 9/11 than most Christians in this country identify with the so-called Christian Fred Phelps and his "God Hates Fags" and "Thank God for IEDs" congregation.

    Why should NYC Muslims let their religion be defined by its crazies? Why should anybody? If they bow to the pressure to reconsider this project, they are implicitly admitting a connection to these people; and anyone who knows a single thing about Islam knows there is NO CONNECTION between this beautiful religion and the atrocity of 9/11.

    It would be the day when I would slink away in shame because someone tried to hold me accountable for the hate that is Fred Phelps.

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  28. Well said, Gryphen! Applause! The faux outrage/bullshit on the right is intensely infuriating.

    There may be acceptable local or business reasons why the center would be scrapped; but, if the project is derailed because of the loudmouths who are driving this debate with stupid and illogical and hypocritical rhetoric, we will all lose.

    Now to read your links.

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  29. Anonymous4:13 PM

    3:34---This is truly sad. Islam is NOT an inherently violent religion. I am an evangelical Christian but look at the Old Testament. People could easily argue that fundamentalist Christianity is inherently violent based the stories in the bible, context is everything, not to mention the history of "Christians" violent acts against non-believers.

    This is America! All of these self-proclaimed protectors of the Constitution are just hypocrites. These same people scream and cry when people say "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas" but they're okay with bullying a mosque into leaving a place they are legally allowed to be???? Reminds me of running the only black family out of town because they make decent, God-fearing white people "uncomfortable". So the real truth is that rights matter to this crowd when it comes to THEIR rights. So shameful the bullies have won yet another round. Absolutely tragic!

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  30. Anonymous4:14 PM

    Harry Reid should be ashamed. The Senate Majority Leader is not only proposing that Americans reject the First Amendment, he is also promoting breaking state and federal discrimination laws. We can no longer claim to be a nation of laws if our leaders abet this sort of behavior.

    The cultural center is being built in an area of hallowed fast food joints and sacred strip clubs. Will opponents apply the same standard to these businesses. This is a private sale of private property. Are opponents advocating a communist-style takeover of land use laws. 'America' has no business in this transaction. None.

    This is a dangerously slippery slope and Harry Reid just took the first step towards a painful descent into karma. Bad move, dude.

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  31. Anonymous4:23 PM

    There is also already a real mosque just a few blocks from ground zero and nobody seems to care.

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  32. Anonymous4:29 PM

    Well Reid has come out against it.
    What is wrong with the DEMOCRATS!??!?

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  33. The outraged Christians protesting this community center forget 1 crucial fact: if religious freedom is taken away from ONE religion, it can be taken away from ALL religions in America. Be careful what you wish for.

    I really despise the stupid sign of that idiot girl in the picture with the douchey twisted up T-shirt. No, Ms Idiot, the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA does NOT have to have the same human rights abuses that exist in parts of the Middle East. Fucking moron.

    America - show the world you are better than this.

    President Obama - you did the right thing and the courageous thing. Stand firm - this voter stands with you.

    Harry Reid - well done, you just lost yourself re-election.

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  34. Anonymous4:38 PM

    70% of Americans, including Harry Reid, think this is a bad idea.

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  35. Pat in MA4:38 PM

    I'm with you 100% Gryph, this nonsense drives. me. CRAZY!

    Newt has played the Nazi card saying the Nazi's wouldn't be allowed to build something near a holocaust site. "Nazi" is a religion now apparently. All of this proves why separation of church and state is vital.

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  36. Anonymous4:44 PM

    A brief comment on you conspiracy ideas.

    I have great friends in Austin, Texas a couple and a mother/mother-in-law. Within 72 hours they had the Republican talking point, that the buildings collapsed straight down under the weight of each succeeding floor, verbatim. And they defended that with considerable anger.
    I have always wondered why the Republicans though it so importat to get their party on script and why my good friends were so angry.


    It is physically impossible for a tall thin structure to collapse straight down. The laws of physics make it impossible. The top is moving in a longer arc than the bottom, it travels a greater distance making it's momentum greater.
    However the bottom travels through less air, so less resistance, and has a shorter distance to fall before it stops moving downward. The multiple forces on the structure make it topple sideways and break apart in mid air.

    There is good reason that there are experts that demolish large structures, they do not collapse straight down. They topple, break apart, break up in the air, different parts fall at different speeds etc.

    Just saying.

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  37. Anonymous4:48 PM

    "70% of Americans, including Harry Reid, think this is a bad idea."

    That's why the Constitution protects the rights of the minority against the will of the majority, dumbass! Either you support the Constitution or you don't.

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  38. Anonymous5:03 PM

    Thanks Gryphen you said exactly what I've been thinking and feeling for days now. The insanity of the fear mongering has made it so that I refuse to read the news these days, its not worth my blood pressure.

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  39. Irishgirl5:03 PM

    We all know that the Republicans aided 9/11. Thanks for highlighting it.

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  40. Anonymous5:07 PM

    It is unusual for time in the past to be better, but I wish I had lived in Cordoba. It was a center for all religions to thrive and live together, great art, music, science, very exciting time.

    Wish we could all live like that now! Islam used to excel at music and poetry and math...the mullahs have smothered their own culture.

    And I agree with every word you said!! I also believe we have been lied to about 9/11.

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  41. Roger5:14 PM

    Has anyone else noticed that ever since the big laugh we all got from the dumbass signs showing up at the original Teabagger circuses--that lately they are all spelled much more correctly?

    Also, it looks as if they are all written by the same hand.

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  42. Anonymous5:31 PM

    THANK YOU. I so agree with you that "Ground Zero" should NOT be immortalized as a shrine. Yes, people died tragically there on 9/11/01. But people die tragically every day, in many places, and yet life still goes on.

    The portion of the Pentagon that was hit on 9/11 was quickly rebuilt and put back into use despite the deaths that occurred there.

    Why is there so much more slobbering over the Twin Towers victims than the Pentagon victims?

    Frankly I have no use for any religion so I have no use for Islam and I don't care if their fucking mosque is built there or not. In fact I'd really just as soon it weren't since I think there are already enough churches and mosques and synagogues around fucking people up.

    But the hypocrisy and inconsistency of singling out 9/11 as a uniquely tragic sacred event whose location will be defiled by the presence of an office building containing a mosque a couple blocks away, when 911 is just one of countless examples of man's religion-drive inhumanity to man, disgust me.

    Also, I don't believe the official government version of 9/11 events for a fucking instant.

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  43. Anonymous5:32 PM

    Anyone ask Native Americans about how they feel about buildings on land they consider sacred?...Crickets?..

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  44. Anonymous5:44 PM

    Gee, 3:34 - you made me feel all warm and fuzzy, seeing as how I am neither Jewish nor Christian. Are you saying I and all the millions like me are going to fine?

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  45. Anonymous5:46 PM

    MrsTarquinBiscuitbarrel: thank you for your comment because you pointed out salient facts that the wingnutters need to know.

    So glad to see you posting again. We miss you over at themudflats as well.

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  46. Anonymous5:54 PM

    hey, 3:34 are you Joe the Plumber? Your claim to be a journalist, but your comments are full of grammatical errors such as incomplete sentences, incorrect capitalization, and inappropriate abbreviations. Usually not a problem for the average commenter, but you want us to give you enhanced credibility because of your journalistic credentials in the middle east. Goodness, unless you are someone for whom English is a second language, you must be someone deployed by the right-wing media such as Joe the Plumber. Wouldn't have mentioned all this except for your claim to be a "journaliat."

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  47. Anonymous6:01 PM

    5:32: Love you! My husband is part Native American and was taught not to tell people about it when he was very young.

    No one seems to mind desecrating Native burial grounds, putting radioactive materials in a tribe's sacred mountain, or deciding what's "good for them" even though they are sovereign nations by treaty!

    Crickets indeed. The silence is deafening.

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  48. Anonymous6:13 PM

    Is anyone in Alaska watching Palin on Greta Van Susterin's show? Talking about Anwar and how it's barren with little wildlife - curious to hear Alaskans weigh in on it. . .

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  49. Anonymous6:17 PM

    Aggghhh. She is crazy. She's on Greta talking about the mosque like a crazy lady. She's totally on speed. She's nuts. How many ways can she bash Obama.

    Oh, and she said the president was being "deliberative."

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  50. Anonymous6:23 PM

    Wonderful Rant Gryphen!
    Totally agree and about your questions...I have questions too...
    What IF Muslims didn't do it?
    All these arguments would fall like a house of cards...
    Does anyone know where I can get a passenger list for the two jets that "hit" the towers?
    And the passenger list for the Jet that hit the pentagon.
    Why was LAX (the destination of the 2 jets that "Hit" the twin towers) Closed that day? To keep snooping reporters from talking with bereaved people? (that weren't there perhaps?)
    There are so many unanswered question about 911.
    But like you said that is opening up a can of worms, but hey who opened the can first? RWNJ bitching about a 911 mosque. Its time to find out the truth.
    Does anyone wonder why Liz cheney is so afraid of Wikileaks?

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  51. laprofesora6:24 PM

    I'm not a person who gets into conspiracy theories, but IF there's more to 9/11 than we know, Cheney would certainly be the evil mind behind it. I do believe he is capable of such a heinous act.

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  52. Anonymous6:59 PM

    I really dislike the hate and lies they are spreading. I would like to thank you for your post and all the others in their tolerance and reasoning. It's refreshing to read after all the junk out there in psycho land.

    I do wonder sometimes how they (the anti-mosque/community center) lemmings would feel if we (Native Americans) threw up a horrible insanity driven screech against all the churches built on 'sacred land. Not to mention all the campgrounds, homes, etc...

    Probably wouldn't go over so well.

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  53. Anonymous7:54 PM

    I fully support the construction of an Islamic community center in lower Manhattan and have no problem with the selected location. I believe that the center as proposed would go a long way towards uniting the diverse groups that live and work in that area. I also believe it is exactly the opposite of what the Islamic terrorists would want, which is an excellent reason for building it with the support of NYers and the leaders of other religions.

    I do, however, disagree with your perspective on the 'hallowed' nature of Ground Zero. I'm a New Yorker who lost a friend in the attack, and I know numerous first responders who worked at the site. I can understand why it is considered by many to be a sacred place. Your example of the location of a drive-by murder is not comparable because the victim's family is able to receive their loved one's body and give them a proper burial. The remains of far too many of the 9/11 victims (including my friend) were never recovered and the WTC is, in fact, their final resting place. That makes the site different from the locations of most other crimes, no matter how horrific. While I agree that the proposed location of the community center should not be considered part of Ground Zero, I do believe that the WTC site is a unique place that retains special significance to millions of people who were affected by the attack, and particular care should be taken to be respectful of the families when deciding what to build there.

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  54. Anonymous7:54 PM

    Anon at 3:34, I am a professor of Middle Eastern history, and I am sorry, but you have been brainwashed by the forces of hate.

    The anger of a few towards the West, brought on by decades of suffering at the hands of the British, Americans, and Israelis, does not alter the basic beliefs of the religion. Jihad means struggle, and Mohammed taught that all children of the book--Christians, Jews, and Moslems, are brothers. You know not what you speak.

    Oh, and did you know that in 1900, almost 50% of the inhabitants of Palestine were Arab Christians? Yes, they really do exist. And they hate us, too, for the same reasons. We kill them.

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  55. emrysa7:57 PM

    I really can't stand monotheism.

    that said, most of the jugheads in this country are monotheists, and they have the right to build their temples of worship to their "one true god" where ever they want. this is america.

    this whole issue really pisses me off. these stupid fucks (such as the ones in this photo) are so weak they have allowed themselves to be totally brainwashed. and what's worse, is that they think they know it all about 911, that they're "authorities" on the subject, and damn they're proud of it.

    muslims didn't blow up the fucking world trade center. this is another manufactured story fed to the masses to control society. these "protesters" are so weak that they willingly buy what their masters want them to believe. these people so desperately want to have an enemy that they're willing to believe whatever they're fed - as long as the enemy is "different than them." gads it's times like these I don't want to be of the same species of these stupid, stupid weak knuckledraggers.

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  56. emrysa8:23 PM

    laprofesora sez:

    "I'm not a person who gets into conspiracy theories, but IF there's more to 9/11 than we know, Cheney would certainly be the evil mind behind it."

    there is definitely more to 911 than we know. and in my opinion cheney does know alot about it.

    I mean really - look at all the things that have happened since 911. more government control, more surveillance of citizens and others, more "budgeting" for the pentagon and cia, more us military setting up shop in parts of the world - and most importantly, MORE PROFITS FOR THE WAR INVESTORS. cheney and the bush family (among others) fall into that category.

    3000 lives is a very small price to pay to access all of the above items.

    it makes me sick to know that so many of my fellow countrymen are so duped. it's an indication that we really are doomed. if people can fall for this shit and not demand answers, well then stick a fork in it.

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  57. Anonymous8:56 PM

    Anon@7:54 PM
    So how do you feel about a mall being built Right on GZ??? No one asked anyone they are building it!
    Will you howl and scream?
    *Crickets*
    People are right there are many NA site being built over! I have one where I live. The CITIZENS fought against a office building being built at the foot of the mountain, so what did they do? They put a concrete area with a tiny plague and there is a horrible blight on the mountain and the surrounding city which is ALSO Indian burial grounds but BART trains have been built and now this horrible office complex.
    Ask the people what can be built there???
    Did they ask You if they could build a MALL????
    Oh...sorry that's the 'murikan way...

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  58. I am angry that people are using this for political reasons. They are going to build a mall on the "hallowed ground/" Yeah right on top but not a peep. There is already a mosque about 2-3 blocks away. Should they knock it down? This is not even a mosque but a community center. Do we have freedom of religious or not?! I don't have a horse in the race but I stick by what is right.

    Fucking Sarah started it and on it goes. Guess who in has had more attacks on them in my city? Muslims. After 911 a home made bomb was thrown at a gas station. It didn't go off so no one was hurt. Anohter was a man who I have shopped from for certain spices. If you never had Middle East food you don't know what you are missing. They threw a Mocktail cocktail through his window destroying his store. Not one of those people have done a dam thing wrong but be of Muslim faith.

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  59. 70% of Americans, including Harry Reid, think this is a bad idea.

    4:38 PM

    You need to educate yourself on how polls are done.

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  60. Anonymous10:00 PM

    "Anon@7:54 PM
    So how do you feel about a mall being built Right on GZ??? No one asked anyone they are building it!
    Will you howl and scream?"

    As a matter of fact, I have no problem with a mall being built on Ground Zero so, no, I won't howl and scream. I'll leave that to you if you should feel so inclined. I DO feel strongly that some kind of memorial should be included in the plans, but the majority of the property should be redeveloped into businesses. That's what was destroyed by the terrorists and that's what should be placed there again.

    "Ask the people what can be built there??? Did they ask You if they could build a MALL????
    Oh...sorry that's the 'murikan way..."

    I never said that I should be asked what to build there. I SAID that I felt it was important to be respectful of the families when planning the construction. I see nothing disrespectful about using the majority of the space for businesses because that's what was there prior to 9/11.

    And in case you hadn't heard, there have been many meetings, discussions, arguments, rallies, etc, regarding this site, which is why it's taking so long to get anything done. Families of those who were lost HAVE been involved and consulted.

    By the way, I happen to enjoy the sound of crickets. I find them very relaxing. Perhaps you should listen to them sometime.

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  61. Anonymous10:07 PM

    Gryphen, sorry you lose me when you start talking about the "real story" beyond 9-11. In fact, I think you descend into "crazy" territory, just like a former mentally ill Alaskan governor.

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  62. Anonymous12:07 AM

    Seems the 'moderate' Imam, has been hanging out with a certain Hizb-ut Tahrir al Islami (Islamic Party of Liberation which has been banned in many countries — Germany, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, Tunisia, Turkey, Kazakhstan, and Saudi Arabia — but not in the United States or Britain).

    The "peace loving" Imam was at a 2007 conference in Indonesia of the terrorist group seeking a global caliphate. Ata Abu-Rishta, the international head of Hizb-ut Tahrir, is said to have “whipped the 100,000-strong crowd” into a frenzy … by calling for a war on Jews.”

    The group seeks worldwide Islamic supremacy and the imposition of Islamic law to replace the Constitution and democracy.

    It is a little hard to believe he is working for peace when he hangs out at something like this.

    I would love to believe the best about this Mosque, but it's important to pay attention to the details...

    I hope you will post this...or at least check it out yourself.

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  63. Anonymous12:13 AM

    SME131...

    It is the groundbreaking that they are hoping for on 9/11/11, on the ten year anniversary.

    I have heard that they will have the Mosque on the 15th floor, which may overlook Ground Zero, have not seen a definite answer. Will this be open to the public?

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  64. Anonymous12:17 AM

    Anon 3:34
    The only people killing Arab Christians are Muslims. Look around the world.

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  65. Anonymous3:02 AM

    I understand that they have the right to build on private property. I think it's in poor taste, though. Yes, we have religious freedom here in the USA, however we also have a responsibility to the public to use common sense. I applaud the building of a community center such as this, I just think they could have chosen a less sensitive spot for it's creation.

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  66. I have a question for you:

    Should we, then, not treat Gettysburg Battlefield with special respect? How about Calvary, where myth has it that Jesus was murdered? How about Appomattox Courthouse? Normandy? Bataan? How about Pearl Harbor? After all, those guys were just doing their jobs and were murdered by a sneak attack. Should we just pull up the U.S.S. Missouri and sell it for scrap?

    Tell me how these places are different from "Ground Zero," please.

    Correct me if I am mis-characterizing your argument, but it seems to me that you are saying nothing is sacred?

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  67. johnie2xs5:06 AM

    This is just another manifestation of "American Exceptionalism".
    You need look no further than all the roadside shrines erected for accident victims. We just can't seem to get over ourselves,in this country.

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  68. Anonymous6:15 AM

    The architect Michael Arad is building a beautiful memorial waterfall memorial at Ground Zero where the families of victims can go to be with their loved ones.

    I worked for a NY newspaper during the attacks on the WTCs - the families that are protesting the center are the same ones who protest against everything and are not representative of all of the victim's families. IN fact, many families are for the center.

    Should the wonderful Pakistani take- out lunch place a block from the WTC site where all the taxi drivers stop to eat be moved to another location too - after all, the owners are muslim. Does it mean it's a front for a terrorist organization, or simply another wonderful NY ethnic eatery?

    The irony of this debate is that once the Islamic Center is built, people will have moved on to their next debate.

    The tourists will still come in droves as they do to buy the tchochkes sold outside the construction site and walk right by the cultural center without even noticing it.

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  69. Anonymous10:53 AM

    Off subject, but did the Alaskan Cuckoo make her pilgrimage to England and have tea with Mrs. Thatcher? Or was that just talk?

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  70. Anonymous7:49 PM

    “If the purpose of this mosque, as we are lead to believe, is to create this tolerant environment, to avoid anything like a 9/11 ever repeating, you have to ask why didn't one of those 100 [existing] mosques already accomplish such a thing,” Palin said.

    So, that means there is no need to have more than one church in Alaska? No need for more than one synagogue or community center? The ones that already exist should take care of everyone's needs? No need for expansion? A little upgrade?

    Let's see, there are over 400 Jewish synagogues in Brooklyn and over 75 in Manhattan; hundreds of Catholic churches, plus dozens of YMCA's, YWCA's, jewish community centers, buddhist temples, and on and on. So Plain thinks we have enough? Those should take care of everyone's needs?

    Actually, what we do have enough of is divisive talking heads. So why do we need Sarah Palin? Didn't the Faux Mews talking heads we had before Palin came along do enough damage?

    Just sayin'

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  71. Anonymous9:30 PM

    Anonymous writes all the posts.

    ReplyDelete

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