However as I have said in the past, when it comes to writing about Dominionists I ALWAYS defer to my friend Leah Burtion, who is the recognized expert on the subject.
And so I have.
Courtesy of Politicususa:
In regards to dominionist linkages to the bloody slaughter in Norway, here are our findings so far:
a) In particular, with a video manifesto (which has been linked on Youtube until it was pulled there, and which has since shown up on Liveleak) the shooter makes some very specific references that show he has familiarity with, and probably shares terminology with (if not overtly sharing intel with) “Christian patriot” militia groups in the US (including material that has been posted on racist and far-right-wing forums in the US, use of particular catch phrases associated with the “Christian Patriot” movement in the US, and others). I’ve just spent nine hours typing up an extensive analysis of the video; he is clearly connected with religious-nationalist groups in Europe and in the US. The degree of references to material originating in the US, in fact, indicate he has been in somewhat regular contact with anti-Muslim racists in the “Christian Patriot” movement in the US, rather than obtaining racialist material from racist groups elsewhere in the world.
b) One thing that stands out (if one is unaware of racialist movements in Europe)–most racist activity in Europe so far has been from “odinists” and “Satanists” in the black-metal community (and are largely doing it in a pattern of occasionally bloody attention-whoredom) or from blatantly neo-Nazi groups. A group or person claiming a “Conservative Christian” basis for this, especially in Europe, stands out like a sore thumb; generally (unlike the US) there has not been a tradition of “racist right” churches like Christian Identity that claim to be “Bible-based”.
c) One thing that stands out in the killer’s videos and writings is a certain obsession with the Knights Templar, the Third Crusade, and the idea of setting up what amount to European “Christian Patriot militias” (often using the very same terminology, of note, as “Christian patriot” groups associated with dominionism and the racist right use in the US) to foment a revolution in the same way as planned by “Christian Patriot militias” here in the US.
d) In particular, the killer is a known guest writer on the site “Jihad Watch”, which has had very close linkage with Dominionist groups (including NAR groups). Jihad Watch is sufficiently infamous (and sufficiently tied to Dominionist activity, particularly among the NAR) that it is one of those groups that Southern Poverty Law Center keeps a very careful watch on (and is on verge of listing it formally as a hate site), and writers to that site almost inevitably have ties to NAR groups.
e) There is a known NAR movement in Norway, which is similar in extremism to the US and which has known linkage to NAR extremists in the US, particularly in C. Peter Wagner’s network (in particular, Jan Torp who has known linkage to Sarah Palin via the Wagner NAR network among others); Norway, a relatively religiously conservative country, has been aggressively targeted by the NAR in an effort to establish a bench-head in Scandinavia. (Of note–Wagner’s lineage of NARasites is the most closely connected to the “racist right” along with Christian Reconstructionists; there is clear evidence that Christian Identity groups and NAR groups have traded theological terminology related to domestic terrorism as recently as the late 1980s and early 1990s.) I wrote about Torp’s connection to Sarah Palin at God’s Own Party? in November 2008.
It is important to recognize that C. Peter Wagner who we are speaking of is one of the main endorsers of Governor Rick Perry’s “The Response” event in Houston.
Believe it or not this is but a taste of the extensive article that Leah has written making these connections and I urge you to free up the time necessary to read the entire post.
And what precisely is a Dominionist? I know, I know, Leah Burton will explain it...
ReplyDeleteI think the term Christian Nationalist is probably as good a general term as any.
Dominionism as a catch-all phrase just doesn't work for me. Or, if someone can point to the specific groups and churches with either stated affiliations or under-the-radar Dominionist initiatives, whatever that means, I would be very appreciative.
Btw, this is an interesting examination of the topic of violent religious (or quasi-religious) fanatics, including Breivik's apparent religious ideas:
http://www.religiondispatches.org/archive/politics/4910/is_norway%E2%80%99s_suspected_murderer_anders_breivik_a_christian_terrorist/
Read it all. That was very informative. Thank Mother Nature there are folks like Leah Burton out there.
ReplyDeleteIf you'll note, the Norway shooter didn't try to run and hide like McVeigh and the rest of the lot. He's the good-looking martyr, and he'll be out when he's 53.
This bears close examination.
C. Peter Wagner is one of the main endorsers of Governor Rick Perry’s “The Response” event in Houston - this is coming up, it is very important that those progressives and those that simply love their fellow man no matter their faith or color, show up and protest and demonstrate that Wagner and Perry idealize and foment HATE.
ReplyDeleteWhat a lazy response Anon 4:36. Dominionism is hardly a catch-all phrase but is the label of a very specific movement that seeks to create a theocracy here in the US and apparently in other countries as well.
ReplyDeleteRead the post & learned much, thank you for the link & raising awareness of the Dominion groups, Karen
ReplyDeleteAnon @ 4:36 am:
ReplyDeleteYou will note that Gryphen has
"God's Own Party?" on the blog roll on the left side of this blog.
"God's Own Party?" is Leah's blog, and in it she answers any and all questions you may have about the "7 Mountain/Dominionist" movement.
The research she and her collaborators do is outstanding.
They present it in comprehensive and comprehensible terms.
Please take the time to educate yourself about this danger to society.
Burton's work is insightful and the connections she made are truly disturbing. I'd be curious to know more about the the relationship between Dominionist theology/beliefs, the NAR, and various militia groups in the U.S. Sarah Palin, for example, seems to sit squarely at the intersection of these groups. Burton's work shows how truly frightening it was that Palin came so close to national office.
ReplyDeleteAnon @4:36: Leah Burton provided a detailed explanation of the use of the term "Dominionist" and referenced attempts to derail the discussion into a semantic debate about the term, i.e. attempts to change the subject.
I keep waiting for the "non violent" promoting christian religious leaders to speak out...what do I hear .."crickets".
ReplyDeleteHilter had a wonderful partner in the catholic church, it seems history is repeating itself.
Sarah Jones weighs in on a number of things here and as always, has trenchant insight and commentary:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.lauranovakauthor.com/blog.html
Politicususa is a terrific source of information - always timely and cutting edge. Burton's work is also under the radar but full of information that most of us don't possess the time or skill to gather. I love reading work on both sites.
Thanks for bringing this to our attention, Gryphen. It's a topic well worth exploring.
I absolutely see the similarities between the Tea Party and the Norway child murderer. And if you read his views, it would not be surprising to see him get a show on Fox News. Sean Hannity would love him.
ReplyDeleteAnyone calling me lazy or directing me to read Leah Burton's site is arrogant to the nth degree. How dare you speak to me that way?
ReplyDeleteI have read the elaborate description of the beliefs of Dominionists she posts there - have you? Can you make any sense of that document? It is so ridiculously complicated it is meaningless.
The specific movement of which people speak - tell me WHERE they have all gotten together and stated their aim to take over our government in a comprehensive and organized fashion. Just tell me, please.
These questions never get answered because the whole concept is so broad, so diffuse. My question has no answer, and that's not my fault.
I am afraid the axe grinding about these fundamentalists is plain as day, as well as the paranoia.
I in no way seek to claim that there aren't far right Christians in this country who hope to integrate their extremist beliefs with our nation's government, education system, etc. But that is very different from the contention of this supposed Dominionist movement/conspiracy theory.
Sorry, it is Ms. Burton who is using this term as a catch-all phrase, by her own admission, and she doesn't want anyone bothering her about the details or nuances. She says so in a recent post.
This is what is truly lazy, and hysterical. There are honest-broker scholars studying this stuff. People who are not walk aways or whatever the term is.
If there is strong evidence to suggest something far-reaching and coherent, please do present it. So far it's a much more complicated and grey (as opposed to black and white) landscape than people want to admit.
That's just the reality, as much as we want to wrap it up and tie it with a simple bow.
A fun fact from the New York Times comments, linking Sarah Palin to the Oslo terrorist:
ReplyDeleteOne of Breivik’s intellectual influences is a Dutch right wing activist, Joshua Livestro --- recently hired by Sarah Palin to advise her on monetary policy. Among his published views: The Netherlands should close its borders to immigrants. Source: http://motherjones.com/politics/2010/11/sarah-palin-pac-joshua-livestro
Speaking of authoritarian mindsets some pretty funny take downs of palinbots over on the imdb thread for the undefeated.
ReplyDeleteWhile it is all very frightening - as a woman, I invite everyone to read what could be the most chilling portion of this guy's manifesto as it pertains to women - found it on Pharyngula
ReplyDeletehttp://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2011/07/a_glimpse_into_the_deranged_mi.php
He not only outlines the equivalent of the Dominionists plans for women - he's articulating the playbook for the GOP and the Tea Party.
Just Chilling.
Btw, no one is trying to derail any argument by troubling folks with semantic distractions (?). Again with the paranoia.
ReplyDeleteRigour is rigour, and semantics are a critical part of thorough discussion and research, as inconvenient as such scrutiny might be.
This is like when anyone dares to question assertions here, they are labelled "troll" or my favorite hostile label, "concern troll", whatever that is supposed to mean.
It's like saying, "Don't bother us, we don't want to have to think about all the variables, we just want to think what we want to think, so leave us alone".
Unfortunate, but probably one of the reasons we stay at the fringe.
Christian extremists are just as dangerous to democracy as are Islamic extremists. They both have declared that themselves holy warriors wholly justified in killing their opponents. So far, the Christian extremists just haven't been as logistically successful as their Islamic counterparts.
ReplyDeleteIf you take away the specific references to Norway, Breivik's rants sound remarkably similar to those of many on the GOP right wing, including several of the declared GOP candidates for POTUS, and Sarah Palin.
Anon, @ 4:36, Leah Burton is not the only one sounding alarm bells about Christian Dominionists. Are they the only batshit crazy Christian fundagelicals? HELL NO. However, that does not mean that they aren't dangerous or don't exist because you don't like the term.
Burton didn't invent the term and she is not alone it citing the movement as being dangerous.
http://www.theocracywatch.org/dominionism.htm
However, the nomenclature is irrelevant. The self identified dominionists are but one portion of the cloud of ostensibly Christian holier-than-thou self appointed
guardians to the throne of God who are prepared to lie, cheat, steal, and apparently sometimes kill to usher in their brand of heaven on Earth.
It doesn't matter what we call them so long as we take them seriously.
Gryphen, at least have the decency to let others know Anon @4:36 responded to their condescension, you just wouldn't let my answers through.
ReplyDeleteLazy and uneducated I am not. Quite the opposite, in fact.
It is interesting how threatened some people can feel by simple discussion.
I still would be very interested if specific groups (info like names, people, places) are flying a Dominionist banner or are widely known as those with an exclusively Dominionist agenda. I realize this is seen as a secret cult, so perhaps not. I know where the Scientology headquarters in LA is, for example, so I just wondered if there is similar data available about these congregations.
My apologies in advance if this is seen as an impertinent and irrelevant question.
The paucity of comments on articles such as these makes it clear that the majority of your readers are here to be entertained by the antics of the clown $P, Gryphen. Are you okay with that?
ReplyDelete$P is just the public face of Xtian Dominionism, a desensitization of sorts. They are behind the majority of candidates in the GOP at this moment. The whole thing should scare the shit out of anyone with a brain, but most people either find it too deep, or just not entertaining. A shame, since it may be the future of those to busy to see what's happening, and the future of their progeny.
9:31am
ReplyDeleteI'll help you out: ALL religions gather together weak-willed, non-intellectuals people into a group that then seeks to impose their will and beliefs upon others. They are all "Dominionist" organizations because they do not keep their beliefs to themselves and wish to have Dominion over those who choose not to be part of their group by annoying the hell out of the rest of us in at attempt to convert us.
All religious groups are out there trying to gain more followers and more cash and tell others how to live their lives. Any of them, all of them, all the time. Religion=Dominionist Behavior. Period.
There, fixed if for ya.
I hate to say it - but I will. This all starts with the belief that an insignificant speck of life on an insignificant grain of sand in the universe has a "personal relationship" with the creator of the whole shebang who sent - and sacrificed a carpenter - his son, btw, of virgin birth who came back to life after death briefly - to jazz up life on that grain of sand. Once that premise is ingrained, given credence and respect, there's no limit to the crazy that can ensue. Doesnt by any means suggest that every believer is loopy, but that fundamental premise leaves a LOT of room for the loopy to attach themselves to. (Standard disclaimer: It's not just fundamental xtianity that presents an incredible structure on which to hang their religion. All the other religions are just as unbelievable when approached with a logical and skeptical eye. All except my own religion, which, surprisingly enough, is the one and only TRUE religion... That religion is soon to be revealed in a magic trick by a great prophet sadly prone to visual and auditory hallucinations...)
ReplyDelete11:25, you are prejudiced against people who have a religious faith, I guess? That is all we need to say about your comment.
ReplyDeleteIf that is where people are coming from, it's obviously a non-starter and shows a complete lack of respect for millions of human beings across the globe.
I would like to think people don't engage in either/or thinking around here. Perhaps I give people too much credit, my bad.
Mr/Ms. Gasman, of course Christian extremists are just as dangerous to the world as Islamic or Jewish extremists or non-religious extremists. Of course. That's not at issue here.
What I find interesting is how incredibly defensive people get about this Dominionist topic.
Kinda reminds me of how people chased that little waitress away.
Thank heaven for Leah! I had discovered some of this in my perfunctory research over the weekend, but she really is on top of it and all the connections. Thanks, Leah! And thanks to Gryph for posting this! It is so important for people to know.
ReplyDelete@11:25am
ReplyDeleteBravo! Perfect summation.
One of the cells connected to this man uses the term Crusader Nationalism to describe their European Right Wing group's ideology.
ReplyDeleteThey are connected to Serbian Nationals who want revenge for events of the Bosnian War. The Serbs are largely members of the Orthodox Church, which as we know is related to the Catholic Church.
@9:52am
ReplyDeleteWhat you need to know is that Dominionism is not a religion or an organization. It is a "movement" whose ideals and goals have spread through many religious congregations and sects by virtue of the fact that they all share an increasing uneasiness with secular society and a desire to live a "godly" life.
There's lots of grey area, so don't go looking for stark black & white outlines because they're hard to find. I know; that's a hard concept to wrap your head around if you're a straightforward, hard-headed type (like me).
I had a cousin involved in this for years. She never used the word Dominionist and I'd never heard it till a few years ago. But looking back on the bizzarre things she believed and did, I now see that Dominionist thinking had invaded her particular congregation of faith.
Anon @ 4:36,
ReplyDeleteYou obviously didn’t bother to do even a simple Google search for “christian dominionist theology” because if you had, you would have found:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominionism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominion_Theology
http://endtimepilgrim.org/dom.htm
http://www.religiousrightwatch.com/2006/10/dominion_theolo.html
http://www.thepropheticyears.com/wordpress/rising-christian-imperialism-fueled-by-dominion-theology.html
http://www.sullivan-county.com/nf0/fundienazis/diamond.htm
http://www.ukapologetics.net/09/dominionism.htm
As to personalities and movements who are linked to dominionism and it's gazillion offshoots:
the late R.J. Rushdoony, the late Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, Steve Schlissel, Todd Bentley, former Southern Baptist Leader Frank Page, Jack Hegee, Gary North, C Peter Wagner, Sara Diamond, Frederick Clarkson, Greg Bahnsen, the Institute for Christian Economics, the Chalcedon Foundation, The Coalition on Revival (COR), Promise Keepers, The Vineyard, Youth With A Mission (YWAM),, New Apostolic Reformation, "Spiritual Warfare Christianity", Fivefold ministry, “Word of Faith”.
That these clowns don’t necessarily openly embrace and self identify with the term “dominionist” is not the fault of Burton. Most of these movements are splinter groups of splinter groups that are led by charismatic figures who each proclaim their unique authority to interpret the bible and uncode all of the secret messages that God hides from everybody else. That these self anointed assholes don’t conform to the nomenclature of their critics cannot be used as criticism against Burton. The movements are top heavy with enlightened “biblical scholars” who all claim to be THE authority for these matters. These arrogant morons are busy jockeying to be the preeminent turd on this theological shitpile, and you worry about what terminology they self identify with?
Try reading nearly anything that Frank Schaeffer has written about the fundagelicals - by whatever name or brand you choose to use. He knows these people personally and cites them by name. He was part of the movement and now he is doing his best to expose them.
]Knock yourself out.
Interesting piece about the gunman:
ReplyDeletehttp://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2011/07/25/understanding-christian-fundamentalist-label-for-norway-terror-suspect/?hpt=hp_t2
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/07/25/glenn-beck-norway-hitler-youth-bin-laden_n_908753.html
ReplyDeleteGlen Beck actually is attacking the victims, saying that they were like "Hitler youth". It is very scary reading comments on CNN stories - too many people are actually defending the mass murderer and blaming Muslims for his actions.
I've been a fan of Leah's for years.
ReplyDeleteI love people trying to apply "reason" to any religion, trying to find only black and white, direct, simple definitions for each and every splinter group of each and every splinter group of a splinter group. Religion isn't fact based, as a matter of fact, the first premise of every religion is to ignore everything you know as real and embrace something someone else deems is real, tried, and true.
Sorry, I and everyone else isn't going to do your homework for you, the information is out there for you to explore, and Leah isn't the only one on top of the case, though she has been at it a long time and has gained a tremendous amout of respect from critical thinkers.
Thanks, Gryphen for starting this particular dialogue in relation to the Oslo Theocratic terrorist in your previous thread and today. If it plants the seed of curiosity and the need to become informed in one person, it's worth it.
The arrogance of some of you is astounding. And the comfort you take in these broad generalities is also quite something. The material to which I referred was specifically on Ms. Burton's site. The piece there which goes into great detail in an effort to define Dominionist belief is incoherent, basically. It could describe any number of Christian sects, many of which have absolutely no intention of taking over any governments.
ReplyDeleteLet's be clear on one thing, anyway. Christ taught that one was to keep separate from political power and matters of government. Period. He essentially said that one was to avoid getting mixed up in any of that if one was to be truly faithful and follow his word. "Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's, and render unto God the things which are God's".
Mr/Ms Gasman, nice of you to offer up all your knowledge to me, however. We have met here before ;-). You are wiz with the internets and the google! I can handle my own research, thank you.
I am well aware that this term is being used to describe a "movement" of some sort, and is not a particular denomination or sect all its own. And I have taken the trouble to read of its history, etc, as much as people want to lecture me about doing so. What I have found more recently is that most of the more current references using this term come from Ms. Burton herself and perhaps a few other people/blogs. The sense I am getting is that many have moved on from this concept because historically things are shifting (much of this was relevant during Bush's terms, for example, but not in the same way these days). We have evolved in our understanding of this complex issue and the term is no longer particularly useful. Ms. Burton may need to get a bit more specific in her language or else concede that she is studying something from the past, albeit important.
I think the record shows now that this Norwegian madman may not even be connected to anything organized, and certainly if he is it bears absolutely no connection to American fundamentalist Christianity, of any kind. I am uncomfortable when I see people becoming overzealous to precipitously prove their contentions, regardless of the actual evidence. That is what motivated my initial post. People jumped all over that, didn't they?! Wow.
What one gets from these friendly debates here is that Ms. Burton and others have an obvious distrust of any form of Christianity, and that's their right, especially if they personally suffered negative experiences with a particular church. However, imo disclaimers should be forthcoming about that, and I think they should make every effort to be sure they are being neutral about their work. This may be an impossible task, perhaps.
As an aside, I live in a community that hosts the Vineyard. They were quite visible about 10 or even 20 years ago, maybe. Nowadays, they seem to be winding down or just coexisting. I know former members. I am a Christian and I feel no warmth toward them or their biblical interpretations, don't get me wrong. They are no different from some other Fundamentalist churches. I don't see an active political involvement from them, but according to all of you they are infiltrating in stealthy ways. I'll be on the lookout for that and do my part to block their nefarious plans, you can be assured.
If people just can't deal with the fact that we have Fundamentalist Christians living in this country, I don't know what to tell you. We also have Fundamentalist Jews and Muslims and dogmatic non-believers, too.
Over and out, you'll be pleased to know.
Anon @ 5:07,
ReplyDeleteSo what the hell is your point? I - and everyone else on this site - knows damn well we have fundamentalist Christians in our country and we have ALREADY seen their willingness to commit murder in defense of their twisted notion of Christianity. Those who stalk and kill doctors who perform abortions - and anybody else who happens to be nearby, those who bomb the Atlanta Olympics, those who bomb federal buildings, those who attack GLBT citizens, those who attack Sikhs mistaking them for Muslims, those who attack Muslims...
The sickening list goes on. And now we can add Breivik's mass murder spree to the list. Christian fundamentalism is no less of a threat to democracy and human rights that Islamic fundamentalism. In their willingness to kill in defense of their respective faiths, they are functionally interchangeable. I doubt if the victims of Breivik's attack in Norway derive any comfort from the knowledge that their child or loved one was killed by a Christian fundamentalist rather than by the Muslim variety.
I have no clue what you are complaining about. You claim to be familiar with the subject of dominionism and its offshoots, yet seem to want to downplay the movement. As Breivik example so chillingly exemplifies, the actual numbers of the fundamentalist extremists are irrelevant. What is important is that these cockroaches not be allowed to thrive in the darkness of society's ignorance to Christian fundamentalist beliefs.
As to your wanting to put distance between Breivik and American Christian fundamentalist views, I say: NO FUCKING WAY. When you read Breivik's hate filled xenophobic, Islamophobic screed, much of it seems remarkably like what many in in the Christian fundamentalist camp routinely spout, including GOP presidential candidates and Sarah Palin.
The right STILL hyperventilates about holding President Obama responsible for the words of his pastor. If that is the metric they get to apply, then by God, the Christian right bears at least some responsibility for disseminating the bigoted fear mongering hate speak that inflamed a disaffected, marginalized, and insane individual like Breivik.
If all Muslims bear some sort of collective guilt for 9-11 then all Christians bear a share of guilt for the actions of Breivik.