A preliminary Iraqi report on a shooting involving an American diplomatic motorcade said Tuesday that Blackwater security guards were not ambushed, as the company reported, but instead fired at a car when it did not heed a policeman’s call to stop, killing a couple and their infant.
The report, by the Ministry of Interior, was presented to the Iraqi cabinet and, though unverified, seemed to contradict an account offered by Blackwater USA that the guards were responding to gunfire by militants. The report said Blackwater helicopters had also fired. The Ministry of Defense said 20 Iraqis had been killed, a far higher number than had been reported before.
I do not have all of the facts yet, but if I were forced to choose I would probably side with the Iraqis on this one. Those Blackwater guys are a bunch of goons.
Personally I don't believe either of them. Whether the Blackwater employees "are a bunch of goons" or not it is not for us to decide when we're not in the line of fire. In times of war many things happen that make people snap. Although it sound like I'm in defense of Blackwater, I'm not.
ReplyDeleteThe fact that the only people that seem to have been talking already have a stake at getting Blackwater out of Iraq is premise to believe that there were larger workings to be had. If the Blackwater Employees were so ill prepared to handle this situation then why isn't there a level of training these private security firms have to attain before being allowed in. This isn't to say there isn't I'm not sure. Accountability should be held from the top down. MANY CIVILIANS DIE IN WAR, I don't see any generals being brought up on charges. I'm done.
ROFL...CNN posts "wounded iraqis say nobody provoked Blackwater" umm, ya right, lol.
ReplyDeleteThere absolutely IS a level of training required by private security firms. These aren't random Joes off the street. Firms like Blackwater hire former Marines, Army Rangers, special operations veterans like SEALS and Green Berets. Men with extensive training in application of deadly force, by which I mean the ability to decide WHEN such application is called for.
ReplyDeleteWere innocent people injured in the shooting? I don't doubt it at all.
Did the Blackwater men open fire indiscriminately? I really, really doubt that.
"The ability to decide WHEN such application is called for" - apparently NOT. The military trains for war, not policing. The rules of engagement are entirely different. These are private citizens operating under the laws of Iraq. They committed murder, plain and simple. Even if they acted in self defense, it was still murder, perhaps justified but still murder. These guys screwed up and should face hanging within 30 days as is the norm under the Iraqi justice system we supported when it served our goals. For it's part, any US servicemember that aids a Blackwater employee in leaving Iraq should be prosecuted for obstruction of justice, then turned over to the Iraqis after serving his sentence.
ReplyDeleteJust out of curiosity, when you say you doubt they fired indiscriminently, do you mean they intended to kill the infant?
ReplyDeleteThe militray has a justice system to punish its employees. Blackwater is subject to the civilian justice system, in this case Iraq's.
I sincerely hope no US official makes any kind of statement in any way excusing or condone what they did.
Blackwater is pathetic and ought to be banned from doing business with teh US government!
Unfortunatly many things bad happen as a result of war. The media being used as a pawn to hype stories for ratings. Coupel this factor with a new earlier than ever campagn year and what have you got? Truth is relative, isn't that what Pontus Pilot said to Christ! The only real solution is pray for truth, peace and God's mercy!
ReplyDeleteI love how the Iraqis (insurgents) fail to mention that after they shoot their guns, and are fired upon by the US, their buddies come and take their AK away from them, leaving them to look like an innocent civilian. Come on people,its war.. These are HIGHLY trained contractors, who don't just open fire with out provocation.. Theres a reason why all their cargo is safe.
ReplyDeleteIt's amazing how everyone is so quick to beleive these guys who CLAIM to have been shot by the blackwater personnel. I'm betting that once the truth comes out(if it ever does) These people were simply caught in a crossfire. I wonder how many "victims" were actually hit by the "Spray and Pray" full auto fire the insurgents love to use.
ReplyDeleteAnyone that thinks Blackwater is a bunch of goons is an idiot. These are the absolute BEST of the US military. Blackwater doesn't hire Soldier of fortune reading Rambo wannabe's. If any of you would take just a few minutes off from grinding your axes and whining about stuff you don't know jack about, and go RESEARCH the READILY available information about blackwater, you'd see what a top flight outfit they are considered to be. You don't get awarded multimillion dollar security contracts by hiring goons.
These are professional soldiers with decades of experience in special operations. You'd better beleive they are damned careful about using deadly force. As this incident illustrates, there are HUGE political, legal, and financial repercussions to these actions.
I doubt I've convinced any of you hardcore military haters, but maybe some people of reasonable intelligence who were undecided on this issue might have learned something.
For you haters, I realize your minds are allready made up, so I'll quit wasting your time confusing you with FACTS.
Semper Fi....
Funny how they are "insurgents" when they are against us and "patriots" when we like them. And, we have admissions and evidence that losers who wear a US military uniform have placed weapons next to innocent civilians they killed for fun. And these are the ones who got caught. Contrast this with baseless allegation you make about Iraquis in their own country. Quite frankly, even if Iraquis DID fire on our officials, it would be a police matter, not something that we should get involved in.
ReplyDeleteBlackwater and the other security firms are triggerhappy goons who are too stupid and unskilled to get a real job. If protection for diplomats is needed it should be provided by the military. Some of them actually are trained and a mechanism exists to hold them accountable when they kill babies and other innocents.
The term “goons” may not be appropriate, but let’s be honest here. These are mercenaries; killers for hire. And if they are professionals, professional what ?
ReplyDeleteWouldn’t being “professional security forces” endow them a little more perspective and restraint ? Perhaps a little more sense of what is appropriate and legal and effective ?
Would a “professional security force” be so vulnerable to “provoking” ?
If the mission is to “protect U.S. State Department employees” , is jumping out of your “armored vehicle” and shooting into the crowd for 30 minutes really consistent with the objective ?
Nor do “private security” personnel have any legal authority to block off a street, redirect traffic or give orders to civilians. They certainly have no right to exercise aggressive force. And if they are to participate in the administration of justice, albeit marshal law, they ought to be subject to the same rules and restrictions and command structure.
This is just another example of the administrations ‘tough-guy’ policies, where breaking the rules and flying under the radar, hidden from oversight, relieved from accountability and paid for by the taxpayers is the preferred modus operandi.
But then, when the leader of leaders practices such blatant capriciousness and cavalier unilateralism, with such contempt for the laws of his own government, well, what can we expect.
Bullshit! Evreyone knows the drill: Step 1.) Take pot shots at Americans from behind women and children as allah dictates the cowards to do.
ReplyDeleteStep 2.) Set off IED by convoy and even more women and children.
Step 3.) Take guns off dead comrades to make them look like innocents.
Step 4.) come out crying "WHy?! Why?! Meesta! Meesta! Why you so MEAN?!"
Step 5.) We as Americans either fall for the BS, or laugh and figure we just figured out why these poeple will never be free.
Well said "joey" - To those defending Blackwater, there is no defense. The result illustrates very clearly that they are not the "professional, well-trained" force they have led you to believe they are.
ReplyDeleteTo Mr. "Semper Fi," you seem to think very highly of Blackwater. Now ask yourself, if you were in a squad of Marines and, in the aftermath of a firefight, you found yourself surrounded by dead civilians, infants and children among them, many shot multiple times in the back, do you really think you would still have a career? Seriously, you would be court-martialed! If you really know what you are talking about you know that target identification is the individual shooter's responsibility! There are US military members sitting in prison right now for almost every single incident involving several civilian casualties, even those that were provoked. There will be prosecutions of Blackwater. And the company is sunk!
To Step 1-5
ReplyDeleteYou are absolutely correct.
So what kind of idiot puts the military into a situation like that? What kind of idiot starts a war he can never win? What kind of idiot thinks these people will ever be free? What kind of idiot supports the effort? What kind of idiot doesn't see that it is time to cut and run? It is now only about the egos of a few politicians.
Regardless of whether Blackwater fired without provokation or if they were in fact provoked... this will be a rallying cry for the anti-US forces in Iraq. Now that Al-Maliki has asked Blackwater to leave what will it say if they do not comply... that the puppet government we have set up is indeed just that and that the Iraqi people still have no control over their own country. The perfect maelstorm for an anti-US religious zealot to rally the people and create an even bigger disaster than already exists.
ReplyDeleteTommyhawks last comment is spot on.
ReplyDeleteI am sorry I missed the debate up to this point. I was at work and really did not expect this post to illicit such a response.
I stand by my use of the term "goon" to describe the Blackwater mercenaries. These same gentlemen were in New Orleans right after Katrina, and it is clear they were not there to save lives or bring supplies to the helpless citizens, but rather to make sure that their employers interests were protected.
You can find that story here:http://www.thenation.com/doc/20051010/scahill
The idea of having these private security guys in the most volatile place on the planet, where every mistake made by an American is under scrutiny by the entire world, is more then just a case of bad judgment it is criminal. And if they are a private agency working in a sovereign country then they MUST abide by the laws of that country.
But we all know they are not going to be put in the Iraqi justice system. And that is why the Iraqis want them out. They cannot hold them accountable and the Americans refuse to do so. So what other choice do they have?
And by the way making the statement that the Blackwater employees are ex-military, as if this is some assurance of their professionalism is ridiculous. There are bad eggs in the military just like in any other field. And wouldn't some macho asshole with a John Wayne complex love nothing more then to make a ton of money running roughshod over a bunch of brown people in Iraq?
Remember our soldiers HAVE to be there. These guys WANT to be there.
That speaks volumes all by itself.
I am curious, how many Blackwater employees, are there, in Iraq and in Baghdad?
ReplyDelete( I have seen varying numbers )
Who pays for them, the State Dept? or are they paid by Pentagon Budget ?
And WHOSE laws are they suposed to follow? Military? Our Laws? Or as someone said above Iraqi laws?
And wasn't it eleven that died?
Do they coordinate at all with Our Military ?
Who takes care of them if they are injured ?
Has Blackwater ever worked in a Civil War Zone before ?
I highly recommend Blackwater: The Rise of the World's Most Powerful Mercenary Army by Jeremy Scahill. It will make you ill.
ReplyDelete