I caught this for the first time the other day after it popped up on one of the sites I visit frequently.
I had never seen this movie entitled "God on Trial" but I found this portion to be incredibly riveting.
Here is how IMBD describes the film:
Awaiting their inevitable deaths at one of the worst concentration camps, a group of Jews make a rabbinical court to decide whether G-d has went against the holy covenant and if He is the one guilty for their suffering.
You know you almost HAVE to believe that conversations like this took place in concentration camps all over the place during World War 2. In fact I believe that they are happening with increasing frequency in the years since that terrible war, and not only among the Jewish population.
I am interested in your feedback, because as an Atheist all I could think was that the questions posed simply had no reasonable nor logical answers, and either pointed to the non-existence of God or to the existence of a terrible God who relishes the act of human genocide and revels in our suffering.
This is exactly the point where I came to the conclusion there is no god, no creator. If there was a god, how could he have allowed so many to die. 911 happening just reinforced by belief.
ReplyDeleteIts against God,s will that any bad happen on earth,,just as his word doesn't change,,he ddnt change it for satan and that's why satna went on and made adam and eve fail so that God cud fail,,but God is nt in the bad that happened it happened againsta his will,,so that u can say what u r saying that's what the devil has accomplished,,God is went on trial for us but see all things are becoming as prophesied in the word of God,so God wil say its enough and wil call his people to come out of the tricks of the Devil and every knee wil bow to God for he is Good and just,,no evil in him he cudnt hav allowed that to happen,,its the devil wu did it agaisnt his will,,but God will make all things right just like he created us from nothing,,,believe all evil is from satan.God is Good infact he is better than what the bibble says he is,,,
DeleteYears ago, after a particularly horrific week, I shook my head and said, “I must have been a real asshole in a previous life.” That’s too flip for genocide, of course, but I don’t know how else to explain it. Some idiots glide through life with one lucky break after another (undeserved!) and other people (nice enough) suffer and suffer. Kahlil Gibran takes a crack at this in The Prophet.
ReplyDeleteNo theologian, here. Nor do I have any special insight into the nature or existence of God. But I have read the Bible thoroughly and also most of the Koran (which pretty much echoes most of the Bible, railing against intolerance and hypocrites of all religions, just as Jesus did). But this is what I take away: The early God of the Old Testament was an angry god, right through the Flood Story. A careful subsequent reading records many stories of God directing forgiveness and tolerance. . .with the humans continuing to disregard the big message. Remember, these are the stories that Jesus studied as a child and young man prior to setting out on his mission. He clearly read more into the Old Testament than the priests and hypocrites did in their day, who chose to ignore those passages. Clearly Creation includes both good and evil, both for humans and all of the natural world. (Think of the terrible being eat being world of wild animals and microscopic life, rather upsetting, that.) But out of this chaos and pain comes beauty and goodness, not the least of which happens when human beings react to this pain and evil with goodness and love, which is, a miraculous and wonderful thing. That is what I focus on when I contemplate God, that this is at all possible.
ReplyDeleteMicMac
I think at best there is a God that doesn't get involved e.g. the Deism viewpoint. Because it makes absolutely no sense that a supreme being would allow things like this to happen.
ReplyDeleteThomas Aquinas wrote that God is not a being, he/she/it is what allows "beingness" to exist. More like "may the Force be with you"
DeleteI think they make a great case for the absence of any Theistic orientation. I came to that conclusion a long time ago myself.
ReplyDeleteI had this discussion with a pastor once. We had visited a church and he insisted on coming to our home and talking. One of those plane crashes had happened, and his view was that God gave us free will and has no control over what humans do. My view is that a loving God would not let the horrific things even enter into people's minds, let alone let them happen. And look at the Republicans? They are in effect allowing the poor to suffer, starve, and eventually, die. So it seems to me that Satan is far more powerful than the God of the Bible, or these people would have a lick of humanity in them. When you chop off society at the knees and stop encouraging people to be better, you are not any better than the Nazis. You see people as objects, as disposable. It's how the military brainwashes 'Christian' soldiers to kill. The enemy is not human. Get them before they get us. I hate that mentality. I am so grateful to have a President who sees all people as worthwhile (even Boehner) and wants everyone to have a chance, no matter if they were born here or anywhere else.
ReplyDeleteWhen I hear people say that God will take care of them or that people have free will, it is beyond me how they can think that a tiny child would use their free will to starve to death, be genitally mutilated etc.
DeleteParents are held accountable for caring for their offspring, to some degree anyway. Parents are to love their children and assist them in growing into responsible humans. If that is the case then how is it that a God who "created" us would allow the violence, harm, suffering and pain to be visited upon his creations - I don't think so, and if so then how can we call him/her a loving god?
Has anyone seen "Joyeaux Noel?" It's a French film about one actual Christmas Eve during WWII when Germans and French soldiers were on either side of a meadow and called a truce for Christmas. There's a French woman whose home is taken over by German soldiers, whom she feeds and warms up, and treats wounds. The soldiers have Christmas Day to eat together and have fellowship. They have their battle, and then help each other bury the dead. It is really quite stunning.
ReplyDeleteYou do realize that the title is highly ironic?
DeleteI saw it. I thought it was very good. And based upon a true story!
DeleteHarvard Christianity Journal Apologizes For Blog Post Saying Jewish People Deserved The Holocaust
ReplyDeleteAn undergraduate Christianity journal at Harvard University has apologized after a blog post on their website argued that "punishments" to the Jewish people — including the Holocaust — were the result of Jews killing Jesus.
The post — titled "Why Us?" — appeared Wednesday on the website for The Harvard Ichthus and was apparently written by an anonymous Jewish convert to Christianity, The Boston Globe reports. The post was taken down soon after, but was reposted with edits on Friday, before it was again removed. An editorial apology was posted over the weekend.
While the original piece has now been completely removed from the Ichthus' website, The Globe has a full copy of the text based on screenshots.
In one of the more startling lines in the blog post, the author recalled his religious heritage as a way to communicate how he understands Jewish suffering. "We, the Jews, collectively rejected God and hung Him up on a cross to die, and thus we deserved the punishments that were heaped on our heads over the last 2000 years," the author wrote.
In a statement to The Globe, Aaron Gyde, a Harvard senior and the Ichthus' editor in chief, said, "As a staff, we would not argue that the fact some Jews were involved in the death of Jesus merits the persecution they have suffered over the past 2,000 years ... We deeply regret the way many Christians have used our sacred texts to justify anti-Semitism. We did not feel that the intent or purpose of the article was specifically anti-Semitic."
Gyde further elaborated on the Ichthus' reasoning for removing the offensive post in the journal's online apology:
http://www.businessinsider.com/harvard-christianity-journal-apologizes-for-blog-post-saying-jewish-people-deserved-the-holocaust-2013-11
Screenshot of “Why Us?” before it was taken down.
Deletehttp://www.bostonglobe.com/2013/11/23/screenshot-why/HuoGyda1EEV8pHmhLC2T9L/story.html
A bit tangential, but I just finished reading "Caesar's Messiah" by Joseph Atwill and found it to be an interesting take on the possible history Jerusalem and surrounding areas during the 1st century CE.
DeleteIt is not a well-written book, but it tells a compelling story.
Earlier this morning, I opened a carton of beautiful brown eggs and found a message from the farmer as usual.
ReplyDeleteGood Morning! With a John E. Southard quote: "The only people with whom you should try to get even are those who have helped you." A good way to start off Monday.....
Later, I watched this film clip. Absolute bummer. Recalling Sunday School....Anyway, back to the eggs that were produced by a group of farmers that are partially funded by the W. Kellogg Foundation. Milk, veggies, jam, and the goodness that can be grown in the Midwest. The group is called Good Natured Family Farms and they wish you "A good Earth, Good Food, Good Life."
As a humanist I will take goodness over godliness Enjoy your feast of the harvest, Remember to compost. What goes' round comes 'round.
RJ in Brownbackistan
No one ever was promised the Garden of Eden in this life. No one ever was promised that nothing bad would ever happen to them. Most people use religion (and or God) as an excuse to blame someone, anyone for those things that go wrong in life. THIS IS OUR WORLD and it is up to us to behave ourselves....or not. God, or at least my God, never promised we live happily ever after always here on Earth or act as everyone's secret wish machine.
ReplyDeleteThe human race seems to me like a spoiled 5 year old. Constantly whinging and saying "give me" and "I want" and "make them stop" and "Let us win". Thank Goodness She has infinite patience and perhaps one of these days the human race will rise above our base nature, actually learn something and grow.
What an incredible story. I had never heard of this film before but will try to find it to watch. The pain in these men's hearts, well, how many of us have felt that way at some times in our lives, the feeling that things we totally trusted and put everything on the line for, might not have any substance. I can only imagine how the real prisoners felt before they were slaughtered. It's just too much to bear thinking about it.
ReplyDeleteThe last words from this clip, "He's (God) made a new Covenant with someone else", really punches the heart of the matter. As a christian-in-progress, the New Testament in the Book of Hebrews explains how Jesus Christ, described as the only begotten son of God, came in flesh and was made a sacrifice to redeem ALL men. So, in essence, God decided to offer his own son up, to show all men that He was prepared to give of Himself. The thing he required evil men to endure (having their first-born die because of the sin of the fathers), he took on for Himself and had to endure the pain Himself as He offered His son up; all this for the salvation of the souls of all mankind to live together in a new place without pain suffering, etc.
I can't explain all the madness of past times, it bothers me too; but, for all the things mankind has suffered, one thing we all can't deny is that we all die. And to think that eternity goes on and on and on forever, while a temporal life's average is 70-80 years on earth, is, to me, a shaking in me to question why we go through so much turmoil? We know there is 'evil'. We know that some of us are victims of 'evil' people. If God just sat back and had no plan to conquer evil forever, then I would lose hope.
I think the Jewish people gave us all hope to press on with faith, that unseen faith that the promises were never about the temporal, but always about the fulfillment of glory in the next life. From what I glean from the New Testament, that 'new covenant' made with someone else, like the above quote, has been now given to all men, Jew and gentile alike, in a new way. Your bible study for the day. LOL
I much prefer Tolkin's "The Rapture" as the holocaust is a time outside of possible for most of us, but the characters in Tolkin's film are everyday suburbanites by the film's mid point. Yet Tolkin also follows the problem of evil question to it's logical end. Have you seen it, Gryphen?
ReplyDeleteThe fellow in the play is voicing many of the same conclusions I came to as I read the Bible for the first time. And the second.
ReplyDeleteI heard Karen Armstrong say that what she appreciates about Judaism is that it is more of a religion of action than a religion of faith. What many people do not know, including most Jews, is that belief in God is not the basic tenet of Judaism. You can not believe in God and still be a Jew. In fact Israel, the name given to Jacob after he "wrestled with a man" and for whom the Jewish people are named, means "one who wrestles with God." We can wrestle with our belief, we are supposed to wrestle with our belief--that is important, not to take it for granted.
ReplyDeleteWhatever we decide, we still need to find the best way for us to live in this world with others. The Jewish religion sets out a plan for doing this, in various deeds and actions, some more comprehensible than others :) That plan is the plan of our people--other groups have their way of teaching the way. While the ways may be different, I don't believe one is better than the other. They all, at their core, have the same goal--to live in harmony within ourselves, with each other, respecting our environment.
I tell this story to 7th graders in a supplementary synagogue school when I spend a session talking about God. If you watch further, you will see that God is found guilty of abandoning the Jewish people. To prove the point, the Nazi guards come in after the verdict to take some inmates to the gas chambers. One man blurts out, "What do we do!" The answer, from the one who you see in your clip arguing against God, is "we pray." Why? Because it is something they can do in the moment--something familiar, something that can bring comfort, something that can bring inner strength to live another day, to honor those who are gone--whether God is in the equation or not. It is action, not blind faith.
I want my students to think about their concept of and relationship with God--or maybe they have no relationship. I ask them what they think, and I pass no judgement on what they tell me. But I want them to have the conversation within themselves. I give them the concepts--agnostic, atheist, pantheist, etc. I want them to choose their beliefs for themselves. I also let them know that whatever they think now will change throughout their lives--that's the wrestling part. And that's fine. What is most important is to look at their heritage and traditions to find the paths that will help them live the best that they can, finding the actions that will lead them to that.
Thanks for sharing your experience. Your seventh graders are lucky to have you as a teacher.
DeleteYour fight against religion is righteous, Gryph. I follow and support your comments and thoughts with great interest. Keep on. But faith is not the same as religion, it is far greater. It embraces, is not afraid of doubt, nor fear. It does not depend upon rules. It chooses hope, action, compassion over fear. An atheist can do just as good a job of this as a believer, as you have pointed out many times in your posts. Keep on keepin' on. But all I ask of you is to entertain that people of faith are equally capable of your high standards. Many are.
DeleteMicMac
The answer suggests a further question Gryph...
ReplyDeleteGod MADE Sarah Palin.. ???
Eli Wiesel, the noted Jewish author, has a play where there is a trial on God. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Trial_of_God
ReplyDeleteInterestingly enough, in the play, the person who defends God is most unexpected.
Really....."has went".....?
ReplyDeleteG,
ReplyDeleteDid you every watch the old TV show The Highlander (from the movie)?
The writer of that show described it as a Talmudic discussion with swords and ass kicking.
I expect this is along the same lines, only without the swords and ass kicking.
I love this movie and have seen it twice. My interest is trauma and loss of faith. PTSD which obviously most of them had has associated with it loss of former spiritual beliefs, I lost one from the workplace bullying and then another one from the trauma the state of Alaska dumped on me. I viewed the movie from the standpoint of a Jewish person who was a strong believer before being treated brutally by fellow humans and witnessing the deaths of many. Many Jews retained their faith or got it back due to those surviving getting some justice later and they were surrounded by others who supported them with the same belief system.
ReplyDeleteThe search for answers to the human condition have perplexed us since man first "appeared". As humans we won the the "knowing you're mortal" Powerball lottery and different faiths and non faiths cope with the same questions in different ways and somehow we still go on.
ReplyDeleteI'll have to find and see this movie. This short clip is so powerfully rich and well acted.
Another decent film is "Life is Beautiful". A man helps his son cope with Nazi Occupation, War and Death in quite an unusual way.